WW1

[luckyleftyme2]

HOW DO YOU EQUATE THAT FIASCO IN IRAQ TO A WORLD WAR? YOU DON'T!

[mainegreen]

1. But did you know WWI's first troop deployment by the Brits was to Iraq?

WWI was all about destroying Germany, and its powerful growing economy. Don't let anyone tell you any claptrap about some archduke who got shot started the whole thing.

WWI was about the new economy, and resources: most importantly oil.

So in a way, this war is similar to WWI, a war fought under faintly true reasons totally distorted to allow a greater war for economic power and strategic resources.

;-)

[Shorebound]

2. Question about Iraq and oil in World War I

How was Iraqi oil a factor in World War I when oil wasn't discovered in Iraq until 1927?

[mainegreen]

3. Oil had been discovered in Persia (Iran) and other areas in the middle east.

The British, and the Germans, not being dopes, knew the geology of the area and had estimated and assumed (correctly) that there were vast reserves in Iraq. Similar to how companies assume natural gas wealth under the northern ice cap, though direct exploration has not occurred to prove this. Already Canada, Norway, America and Russia are currently 'extending' their territorial rights in the artic to try and gain territorial rights to these reserves.

Heres one link that summarizes at a very high level:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/1000history.htm

There are many more if you look for them. They knew oil was there. 'Discovery' was merely a confirmation of their hypothesis.

[Shorebound]

8. oil history

MaineGreen, you are the second person I've run across in the last month who has claimed that competition for Iraqi oil reserves was a major cause for World War I. Where did you find this idea, if I may ask? Is this being taught in a new textbook or college course or something?

I went to the site you list. Calling the Global Policy forum "a very high level" source is, well, interesting. Especially when the essay at the link is barely above sophomore college level. I saw a lot of unsupported allegations, very little in the way of actual substantiation. And to be honest, I'm very leery of anything that cites Daniel Yergin's book as supporting evidence. He has become such a mouthpiece for the oil companies that his comments are automatically suspect IMO.

There were plenty of suspicions that the area now known as Iraq had oil deposits, and the first oil exploration contracts for the region were signed in 1912. But it took almost ten years after the end of the war for the first oil field to be found. All the Great Powers except the US (we had our own oil in-house, as it were) were interested in developing oil sources, especially after the conversion of warships to oil-fired engines. However, while it's popular to ascribe all the evil of the past century to oil, it would be a mistake to blame World War I on the competition over Iraq's unknown oil assets. There were plenty of more volatile and significant flashpoints involved in that sad conflict. And in the Great Game that was being played by the European powers in the Middle East, there were better ways to win than by annihilating an entire generation of European men.

[mainegreen]

9. I don't think Iraq oil was the cassus belli for the war.

I recognize that my view is merely my interpretation (with a fair bit of tinfoil-hattery) of what was a rising economic showdown between Great Britain and Germany/Austrio-Hungary. With Germany allied with Austrio-Hungary as well the Ottoman Turks, Britain and France would have been at a severe economic disadvantage. The infamous Constantinople-Baghdad Railway to extend the Oriental Express, which had it's financing agreed upon by the major powers, would have greatly reduced the influence of the Suez canal. Germany was preparing to finance mondernization of the Ottoman economy just prior to the outbreak of the war. This would have had severe implications on Britain's position in Persia and would place their refining facilities in Abadan at risk long term (IMHO on that one).

Franz Ferdinand's death was simply at the right time, providing the cassus belli needed by all involved to commence what was to be an economic showdown over who was to have the controlling stake in global resources and access to them. Basically an extention of what as near as I can tell is the eternal battle for control over the middle east. Austrio-Hungary was blocking Russia's access to warm water, (especially with an alliance with the Ottomans), France and England had much to fear from Germany gaining access to oil from the middle east that could not be controlled via the Suez Canal.

I understand the stated reasons the powers had for going to war, I just deny that core reason each power went to war was for their publicly stated reasons. Sure Belgium is a lovely country, but did Great Britain get involved solely because Germany invaded Belgium as part of the Schlieffen Plan, or because Great Britain recognized that Germany was to be their primary opponent economically in the coming century, and that by golly, with Russia in the east all pissed off over Austrio-Hungarian efforts to suppress the revolts in the Balkans, wouldn't this be a fine dandy time to take them out now. Oh yeah, and liberate the lowlands as well.

Russia's concern in the war of course was not oil nor access to the middle east. I think I'd have to be waaay off the deep end to think that. Of course Russia was still a tad angry about the Crimean war, and with the countries that sheltered that Tartars.

And France? Well that ones obvious. An invasion plus a stewing anger over Alsace was the real reason, so I think Frances stated reasons for involvement in the war are easily the most honest and clear.

So I guess in a round about way, while I'm not saying Iraqi oil per se was the cause. I should probably refine my statement that the main reason England, Germany, The Ottomans and perhaps, to a small degree the Americans entered the war was economic, a very large part of that being access to the oil wealth in the Middle East (not Iraq specifically), and while everyone I'm sure felt terrible about Franz Ferdinand and the plight of the Belgians and the Serbians (not), these official stated reasons for the war are, well bollocks IMHO.

I'm not sure why other people think this way, but the main reason why I became interested in WWI was in my reading on WWII. Since the Treaty of Versailles played a large role in the events leading up to WWII, I naturally started reading history backwards from WWII to WWI.

Does this make sense? Hopefully I'm not coming off as too much of a nutjob!

[Shorebound]

10. Causes of WWI

Exploring the causes of World War I could take a lifetime (See Barbara Tuchman and "The Guns of August"). The conflict over the Baghdad railroad and Iraqi oil was IMO a small piece of the whole -- a very small piece. And it was basically a diplomatic exercise rather than a military one. But I think pursuing the economic and geopolitic currents running through Europe at the time would be rewarding. Undoubtedly there were forces at work that encouraged the conflict, and just as undoubtedly those forces were amazed and dismayed at the way the war played out. The last major European conflict was the Franco-Prussian War in the 1870s, and that barely lasted long enough to wind the horses. But Maxim's machinegun and Nobel's explosives combined with hidebound generals stuck in Napoleonic strategies to turn it into a trench warfare slaughterhouse.

Good luck with your reading, but be careful of the tinfoil hattery :)

[mile53]

4. WHY ASK

WHY DO U ASK IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY U EQUAL IT WITH A WORLD WAR THE IRAQ WAR IS ABOUT DIFERENT REESONS ANYWAY DON'T YOU KNOW WHY?

[mainegreen]

5. .....

:rofl:

Dude, I seriously thought you were lucky for a second.
Wow. Doubletake.

[Maine-ah]

6. .

:spray: :spray: :spray:

[luckyleftyme2]

7. who wrote the book ur reading

really thats like equating your great feats for man kind? well if we still had outhouses
I suppose you could be called an asset.Or we could use the paper to start a fire.
Oh by the way it must burn your butt to know you travel over a road built by a liberal!
HA HA HAVE A NICE LIFE. Or every time you go to the maine mall a liberal worked out many of
roadways leading to it.
Or when you fly out of pease or portland a liberal helped to develop it.
any one who uses a bully pulpit deserves no respect,liberals are not commies,and in this country all men and women have freedom of speech.
The sad fact is energy from fossil fuel supplies will not keep up with demand and other sources need to be developed at a faster pace.This will take all of our effort to accomplish.
And sad to say your party has been dragging its feet.And "black gold" or "texas mafia"
are phrases you can find in the written text-
like the guy who had the "ice cream" factory he hated to see those "dairy joys". but the ones that survived also have "ice milk".
And anyone who continues to think only his ideas or his beliefs or his politics are the only way will miss so much as he travels the path of life.
And by the way health care insurance costs are killing the working man! everywhere not just
maine.

[mile53]

11. oh okay i get the conection

oh okay now iget the conection ur getting 2 with the war in iraq and the stuf urwrote at heer at first i had a hard time with it but now i htink i understand what the war in iraq has to do with teh feats of mind and busilding roads and things lik that thank u veru much form making this all very cleeer to me becaus ur more nowlegable on this than me i know my place now

[Shorebound]

12. PLease

STOP, STP, I CANT BRETHE, IM LAFFIN 2 HARD.

[Maine-ah]

13. hEhE

fmolroa :shrug:







:rofl: :rofl: