OK... Convince me not to vote for Ron Paul!

[jimlup]

OK folks. Let me start with I hate republicans and consider them vile human beings. I am pissed as hell about the war and the Bush presidency. I am also pissed at the democratic party for disenfrancising Michigan in the presidential primary.

I am a Kucinch supporter, realistically. I was willing to settle for John Edwards since he still has a chance of getting the nomination. Edwards isn't on the ballot but Kucinich is, I decided yesterday to vote Kucinch even though the delegates won't get a vote. Then I realized that Kucinich's numbers are so low he likely won't get any delegates. Based on this information and the associated information on Ron Paul's numbers - I'm currently planning to vote for Ron Paul as the strongest possible electoral statement that I can make against the grossly illegal war in Iraq.

I'm a very well read progressive and will need more than a few slogans to convince me to change my decision to vote for Ron Paul. I disagree with the man very significantly on most issues BUT the war and the illegitimate and dangerous projection of american military power is by far the most important issue to me at the moment.

Can anyone convince me otherwise? Are there Kucinich voters who can convince me? What the hell can I do other than be pissed as hell?

[knitter4democracy]

1. Kucinich isn't against Medicare, Medicaid, and public schools.

Paul is. Do you really think he'd do right by Michigan, then? He hates unions, he hates the UN, and he's not very fond of black people.

If you're closer to Kucinich, then vote for him! Paul's got plenty of supporters in Michigan from the right wing, so he doesn't need the help. Kucinich does--he needs to keep this thing going as long as he can to get more support for impeachment and keeping the party true to its base.

[jimlup]

2. I don't disagree but...

I don't see the votes for Kucinich actually materializing so I see a vote for Kucinich as a lonely ignored cry in the dark.

I probably won't decide until I actually get to the polling place.

Does anyone know how I could get poll numbers for my district? If there is any chance Kucinich can get anywhere close to 15% in my heavily liberal Ann Arbor district then I'll vote for him but otherwise I'm leaning towards Paul as a protest vote.

[knitter4democracy]

3. A vote for Kucinich is a protest vote.

The DNC will have to take him more seriously if he wins here or comes anywhere near close.

[Breeze54]

4. Pick Your Candidate - Take this simple test... See where U stand on the issues and agree with!

Pick Your Candidate

http://www.dehp.net/candidate/

Instructions: Go through each issue listed below and choose the stance you would prefer in a president.

If a particular issue is important to you, select a different weight to the right.

If an issue is not important to you, leave it as unknown/other.

This site will attempt to match your views against the views of the US presidential candidates.

Issue - Stance - Weight

[maddogesq]

6. That was cool!

I had a virtual tie between Clinton, Obama, Edwards and Kucinich. Interest stuff.

[Breeze54]

7. A tie?

I don't mean to sound unconvinced about that but I'm unconvinced about that! :P

Who won?

[maddogesq]

17. Dennis, but the point spread was only like 1.

In my book, that is a virtual tie. I couldn't believe it myself, to tell you the truth. It went Dennis, Clinton, Obama, Edwards. There were a couple where I answered neither/nor. I will try that again in a day or so to see what happens...just for fun.

[steveranger]

15. Kucnich 83, Gravel 53

Dennis Kucinich was my candidate, getting 83, with Mike Gravel getting 53, then Clinton, Obama and Edwards. Strange how Edwards is my number 2 after Dennis.

[MichiganVote]

5. Well you have a choice to make. Either you play a very minor role in politics and

vote for Ron Paul who won't thank you for your vote, won't continue to talk your talk or walk your walk....

or

you vote for the person you have admired out of respect for the things he has stood for that have meaning in your life.

Seems pretty simple to me but what do I know.

[skipos]

8. I am voting UNCOMMITTED. Gore, Edwards, Obama, Richardson, Biden supporters should do the same

If you like Kucinich, vote for Kucinich.
I like Obama and Edwards, and DO NOT LIKE Hillary. UNCOMMITTED is the best thing for me.
If you are looking to do something "strategic" on the R side with your vote, I'd vote for Romney. This is why some Democrats might do it...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/10/2713/87225/55/434206
http://kos.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/11/132847/518/150/435128
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiCqxKLIVDY&eurl=http://dailykos.com/

[jimlup]

9. Polling data

Here is the data in Michigan for the repuklian side:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/mi/michigan_republican_primary-237.html

and here is the data in Michigan for us:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/mi/michigan_democratic_primary-238.html

1. Kucinich doesn't even get listed in the Michigan polling data.
2. The democratic delegates won't get a vote at the convention anyway.

Seems to me, that the most trouble and can stir up is to vote for Ron Paul by asking for a repuklian ballot.

The most convincing arguement I've heard so far appealed to my conscience. Yes, Kucinich is a man that I respect and admire. He represents my views. Pulling a switch for a small chance at meaningless political mischief seems trit. Nevertheless, the part of me that wants to actually affect change doesn't find my political conscience enought of a reason to stay in the democratic primary.

Anyway, I probably won't actually decide until I walk into the polling place.

[skipos]

10. Well

1. Kucinich is on the ballot. I wouldn't vote for him, but you can. It looks like he'll get about 2% or so.
2. As of right now, you are correct. Many people feel that the delegates WILL ultimately be seated, in which case the potential 30% going to uncommited makes a difference.

"MY WIFE AND I ARE VOTING UNCOMMITTED. WE WILL WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO MAKE SURE THAT UNCOMMITTED DELEGATES GO TO THAT CONVENTION TRULY UNCOMMITTED SO THAT OBAMA CAN COMPETE FOR THEIR VOTE." Congressman Conyers (D)

And obviously Edwards and others can compete for their vote too. The MI Draft Gore movement is supporting "uncommitted" for that reason.

I am voting UNCOMMITTED.

[jimlup]

11. Don't know how long you've followed politcs but ...

If the convention starts without a clear nominee that will be very unusual. In that case I believe it is very unlikely that the michigan delegates will be allowed to vote on the first ballot and perhaps will be completely excluded. What is likely to happen is that the winner will be obvious by the time the convention starts and thus they will seat the Michigan delegates in an attempt to placate pissed off people like me.

If the convention starts as undecided (highly unlikely given modern politics) then the rule fighting will be vicious. It would be fun show but Michigan will come up on the short side of it all and, effectively, already has.

Anyway, I hope you succeed in "uncommitted". I hope Hillary is prevented as many unfair delegates as possible. I agree with Senator Riegle. The Clintons have attempted to cheat to a sleezy win in Michigan. I partially blame Granholm.

[skipos]

12. Lots of people are talking about a possible brokered convention for Repubs and Dems

I think it is unlikely but who knows?

[Strawman]

13. Can you vote for a man who put this out in his name? Vote for Kucinich

This is Ron Paul:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=74978161-f730-43a2-91c3-de262573a129

After much deliberation, including whether or not to participate at all, I voted for Kucinich for two basic reasons despite my reservations about his poorly run campaign:

1)He has earned my vote because of his positions on the war, health care, and basic issues of economic fairness.
He has earned the vote based on his conststent principled opposition to a war that is wrong in principle. He didn't change his mind later on, he didn't oppose it when his opposition was inconsequential and then endorse Joe Lieberman when it mattered. Beyond that he is not an isolationist like Ron Paul. He advocates a policy of actively promoting world peace. There is an affirmative, activist component to his foreign policy. It's not pure xenophobia and disengagement like Paul.

He has earned my vote because he endorses a single payer health care system, the best, fairest option to ensure that all Americans have access to quality medical care without having to go bankrupt when they get sick.

He has earned my vote by being one of the few candidates who think that we need to cut defense spending rather than continue to feed the beast that is the military industrial complex. It is out of control.

He doesn't back down one inch from the idea that rich motherfuckers ought to pay their fair share of taxes through a progressive federal income tax, unlike Ron Paul. These rich bastards in the top .01% have seen their incomes increase exponentially while for 80% of the country real wages have stagnated since 1970.

2) Strategically, it is of little cost to vote for him even though I know he won't win. If everyone were involved, I would choose between Obama and Edwards, but I'd rather send a delegate to the convention who is a DK supporter than anyone else. And if they don't seat his delegates, at least I have denied Hillary a delegate which is what would be accomplished by voting uncommitted. And I don't think this will go to the convention undecided, so the whole delegate thing is probably irrelevant anyway.

I voted to signal my preferences to whomever might be listening (realistically that probably means nobody) and to reward the candidate who has earned in based on his stance on the issues. With no strategic cost to that vote, it seemed the best option. Besides that, it felt pretty damn good.

[TahitiNut]

14. Agreed.

[steveranger]

16. Dennis deserves the vote

I have thought long and hard about this. The Romney trick could backfire. Ron Paul has issues.

Dennis Kucinich has the same opinions as myself on a lot of issues. Most, in fact. I am inspired listening to him. He is what the Democratic Party used to be.

I am following my heart and voting for Dennis Kucinich. If everyone else in the party did the same, we would have Kucinich as President.

Vote for Dennis!!!

[TahitiNut]

18. Well, he got 2 votes from this household ... and is likely to get them in November, too.

As I've said before, the Democratic Party would have to make an effort to lose the General Election in November ... but they've shown before that they're up to the task. With their treatment of the VOTERS in Michigan and Florida, they deserve to lose, imho. I'll vote my conscience and anyone claiming that helps the GOP can go shove it up their Quisling asses.

[jimlup]

19. Just so you know...

I came to my senses and voted for Kucinich. I'm still pissed as hell that the democrats voided this election but I'm glad I voted my conscience.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.