Casino at Maul of America - what has NOT been said on Minnesota MSM?

[Deja Q]

1. Increase in traffic in an already overloaded area due to lack of appropriate care by those in power.

2. Increase in crime. (this may have be addressed by now.)

3. Increase in costs to anything related to the MOA (product prices, et al) due to higher insurance or other unforseen premiums.

4. Possible land devaluation.

5. The MAO casino would draw people away from Indian tribes' casinos, all of which have valid points regarding paying their fair share already.

What else?

[Jonathan_Hoag]

1. Indians should not have a monopoly on casino gambling

If Indian gambling in a state is allowed non-Indian gambling should be too.

If they have a good product they will survive the competition. If they don't they need to adapt or go under. Econ 101.

[GAspnes]

2. Nice handle, welcome to DU

However, I disagree with you. Indian gaming was enabled by Congress with the express goal of giving Indians an advantage w/r/t the economies of the reservations.

Aside from my moral inhibitions against state-supported gambling, I am all in favor of letting the tribes have exclusive control of gambling for as long as it takes to undo 400 years' worth of land-stealing, murder and criminalization.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

5. Thanks.

But I disagree with you totally. Indians should not be denied economic oportunities but neither should they be given legal advantages through laws and tax-exemptions. Congress made a bad decision enabling Indian gambling in states that did not allow gambling in effect giving them a monopoly.

[dpbrown]

7. Indian gaming is ONLY allowed in states that have other legal gambling

The federal law that was passed to enable Indian gaming was built on the premise that where a state does not allow gambling of any kind, including charitable gambling, then it should not have to be burdened with Indian gaming as well.

There is no state that allows Indian gaming that does not have some other gambling already.

Therefore your premise is flawed.

Tax exemption is a separate issue, since the Native Nations exist as nations within a nation, and so are not subject to state taxation.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

8. Not quite

Indians are allower casino gambling when such gambling is not otherwise allowed. That the state allows - for example - church bingo is irrelevant as Indians do not want church bingo but big bucks casinos. Laws - including gaming alws - should apply to everyone equally. Language giving special consideration to a certain group should be deemed uncosntitutional.

As far as tax exemption - if Indian "nations" are exempt from state taxation they should also not receive state monies for welfare, schools, infrastructure etc. You can either have sovereignity or not. You can't claim it when it comes to taxation but forget it when it comes to receiving tax revenues. Also some tax exemption of Indian tribes does not even apply to real independent nations. For example if I wanted to buy German cigarettes proper (American, not German) excise taxes would have to be paid by the importer. Not so for Indian cigarettes which thus enjoy huge - and unfair - competitive advantage,.

[dpbrown]

10. Gambling is gambling, and sovereignty can't be levied on an outsider

Gambling is gambling. Whether the state went all out to build casinos or whether it allowed church bingo is irrelevant to the contingency, based on the state's law, to allow gambling of some sort.

Your thesis regarding German cigarettes fails, since the federal government of the United States did not negotiate with Germany to occupy the middle part of North America.

The tired, white power argument that the Native Nations should have to give up any benefit they receive by virtue of their status as destitute, since by virtue of their sovereignty they are not forced to pay taxes, fails as well.

The right to tax springs from the government that imposes the tax, and is limited to the universe of things over which that government has sovereignty. The federal government has a right to tax anything in its purview, including anything it has acquired from the original inhabitants of North America.

The Native Nations preceded and do not flow from the federal government of the United States, and since the states exist as a confederation organized underneath the umbrella of the federal union, they have no right to impose a tax upon the Native Nations within the geographical boundaries of the states.

Most monies that flow to support social services within the Native Nations come from, or are authorized by, the federal government, and are administered through the BIA. Even those that come directly from the state to support social programs on the basis of destitution or to provide education are not usually native-specific, and in any case the decision to provide social assistance serves a state's determination to ensure its own stability by paying attention to its social fabric, and has nothing to do with any nonexistent obligation someone might imagine that natives should be saddled with.

The points remain unrebutted:

1. No Indian casino has a monopoly on gambling in any state where they are situated.

2. States can't tax Native Nations, since they don't flow from states.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. As I observed on my one visit to an Oregon tribal casino

the Indians lost their land and cultural heritage to stupid, greedy white people. They are now in the process of profiting off stupid, greedy white people. It's poetic justice. :-)

[TN al]

3. I totally disagree with you...

...and am in total agreement with the first poster to respond to you.

Blind adherance to free market principals is a large part of what has brought this country to the depths it is now experiencing and is a cornerstone of neocon philosophy.
Comparative Economics 301

[Jonathan_Hoag]

4. Please give me an "comparative" example where ...

giving an ethnic group an economic monopoly has worked - and you would describe as "fair" - anywhere in the world.

[TN al]

6. I'm not letting you frame the arguement in that way...

...Adam Smith's ideas don't work in a rigged game.

[Jonathan_Hoag]

9. Indian gambling

is a rigged game. Giving everyone the same legal rights is not.

[KitchenWitch]

11. and stealing land, food and culture was not a rigged game?

It could be argued that 99.99999999% of all politcal goings on are rigged games. I agree with the OP.

As far as Indians and casino gambling in this state, Minnesota *negotiated* with the tribes as to the terms of allowing the casinos here, and now certain people in politics, who don't like the way the budget looks, want to *re-negotiate* those terms. Since Indian nations are sovereign (may have misspelled), this is akin to violating treaty rights. The fact of the matter is, many of the most economically poor areas of our country are on the Indian reservations (think Pine Ridge, Rosebud, etc.) I am glad our state government gave them an opportunity to not only preserve what is left of their culture, but to also allow them to be self-sufficient (read - no more welfare) through Indian gaming.

[GAspnes]

13. on the other issues

The blatant land-grab by Roseville on the north side of 494 presaged further Mall development. There's no doubt that increasing the Sprawl, with or without a casino, will strain Bloomington far beyond any value-add from increasing consumerism.

The on-going airport expansion in the face of declining (negative) airline revenues is another example of closing the barn door far too late to catch the horses. Whomever brought up the Met Council (KitchenWitch, I think) reminds me that it needs to be strenthened and de-politicized.

Some times I'm amazing the Twin Cities have survived at all.

[dflprincess]

14. Regarding the crime issue

to hear the Bloomington police and city council tell it there is no crime at the Mall of America. (Never mind they opened a police substation there, and a couple unfortunate shootings and not letting kids under 16 in the place without an adult on weekend evenings or the fact Camp Snoopy is sometimes called Camp Shootme).

My mother thought the advantage to a casino at the Sprawl would be that the mob might get involved in that and maybe they'd chase the gang bangers out of the place. Mom has a theory that the Mafia at least had rules and nobody got whacked unless they were suppose to - none of that indiscriminate drive by stuff. She bases this on having heard Little Italy used to be one of the safest areas of New York City. Mom's seen the Godfather too many times.

[cynthia]

15. Gambling is no way to pay for government

Pawlenty promised no new taxes, but he is willing to "tax" those who are weak, addicted to gambling, or just stupid enough to spend their hard-earned money at casinos.

It was a mistake for Minnesota to allow the lottery, and it is imperative that there is no more expansion of non-Indian gaming.

As for the tribes, we have taken from them, and taken from them, when will we learn our lesson from the mistakes of the past? If they are able to improve their lives because of the casinos, then it is the least we can do to make up for the sins of our forefathers.

[dflprincess]

16. I agree that it's not a good way to pay for government

but I think you're a little harsh about people who do enjoy gambling. Yes, it can be addictive for some, so is alcohol.

I've been out to Mystic a couple times, though both times it was because a friend wanted to celebrate her birthday out there. Personally, it is not how I prefer to spend my limited entertainment dollars. But, I do know a few people who enjoy a night out at the casino and go out there assuming they're going to lose and plan how much they can afford to lose (though one actually came home with $10,000 once - she has not been back as she figures she used up all her luck that night). They aren't stupid and they aren't addicted, it's a way they choose to relax.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. The only way to do it is to take an amount of cash that you don't mind

losing and keep your bank cards at home, because they have ATMs at casinos (talk about mainlining!)

The one time I went to a casino in Oregon it was on a tour organized by apartment building. Fifteen of us went, and I took a twenty dollar bill. I had fun trying out the different games and sampling the food, but soon the twenty bucks was gone.

Of all the people who went on the excursion, only one came back with more money than he had taken along.

[Love Bug]

18. About item #1

I drove south on 77 Saturday afternoon at 3:30 and noticed both the off ramps to the MOA were backed up practically to 77. Now, it was a grey Saturday with nothing else going on but geez, traffic is bad enough now, especially with the IKEA store, but I can't imagine how it's going to be once Phase II opens.

About Indian gaming: My observation is when a non-Indian complains about how much money the tribes are getting from Casinos it's because they are jealous about all the money Tribal members get every month. Everyone has heard stories about the multi-thousand $ checks individual Tribal members get. It offends their sense of "fairness" to see someone get something for "nothing." I'll bet these same people have no problem with the children of the wealthy getting a fat inheritance they didn't earn but I guess that's different.

I, for one, don't like the idea of "sin taxes" in general because it puts the government in a conflict of interest (not to mention the hypocrisy) regarding supporting the general health and welfare of the people yet depending on the unhealthy habits of those same people for revenue. They are talking now about adding $1/pack tax to cigarettes to raise more revenue.