Thinking about New Hampshire: Potential migrants want opinions

[politicat]

The Love of my Life and I have decided that we really can't take too many more Colorado summers - hot, dry and fiery. So we have shortlisted several states as potential new homes while I get another master's in either Spanish or Slovak languages and he gets his DPhil in robotics. New Hampshire is on the short list.

So the questions we have are:
1. Would out-of-staters be welcome? (In Colorado, they're not really welcome.)
2. Would we be able to find work? (He, senior level programmer/architect; me medieval historian or psychologist.)
3. Are the state universities good for post-grad work?
4. Is housing available for less than the $350,000 average house price in this area?
5. What would you, as a resident of your state, warn us to be careful about?

Thanks!

[OneBlueSky]

1. southern NH is full of "immigrants" . . . professionals who commute . . .

to Boston . . . the farther north you go, the more remote things get . . . Durham is a vibrant college community (UNH), and Portsmouth is a really neat city within easy driving distance . . . when I lived up that way some years back, there was plenty of work for computer folk in southern NH, but I don't know if that's still the case . . . the state's largest newspaper, the Manchester Union-Leader, is notorious as one of the country's most conservative/reactionary dailies . . .

[Redneck Socialist]

2. Come on in, the water's fine (so to speak)

So you want to trade "hot, dry and fiery" for short, hot and muggy hunh?

Well, there is no accounting for taste...kidding, I'm kidding :P

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Sure, kinda, sorta, it depends. There can be a lot of "us vs. them" attitudes in small towns. NH is the fastest growing state in the north east and most of that growth has been unplanned and uncontrolled. This has resulted in rapid changes to a state that doesn't take well to change and "flat landers" with attitudes can be given the cold shoulder.

2. Probably not a problem. Southern NH had a pretty vibrant computer related job market a while back. Not my field but I take it that as with "hi tec" every where it is not what it was a few years back but that industry is still here.

3. I received my degree (under grad) from the state system and I know folks who have done grad level work in the state schools without complaint. It ain't cheap though. Not a lot of support for the state schools or any other schools for that matter.

4. Yup, but property taxes are very high. We're tax free don't 'cha know? :eyes: Live free and die.

5. Well, since you hang out at DU, I gather you are liberal/progressive. NH ain't. Despite going for Kerry lasts time around repukes dominate local politics. The bright side is the local strain of republicanism tends to be more libertarian than nutso fundy. It's more of an leave me and my wallet alone and let me do what I want strain of republicanism than god told me to stick my nose in your business type you find elsewhere.

I'm native born and bred so feel free to PM me if you want more detailed info.

[maxanne]

3. depends

A lot depends on where you locate. The jobs for folks like you are going to be in the southern half of the state - which is the most densely populated.

NH is a tough place to live. We don't have an income tax, or a sales tax, so we add user fees to damn near everything, and then there's the statewide property tax which we use to fund education. We hate children - they are the enemy in many towns, because we have to pay to educate them. We don't like that.

The NH House of Representatives has been controlled by the GOP since the Civl War. There are 400 reps. They are mostly old, retired, independently wealthy white guys. Some of them are frightening - I once saw Rep. Stretch Kennedy grabbing his crotch in reps hall, and making a joke about "dykes."

I've lived in NH for about 22 years. I live in the northern part of the state, where progressives don't exist - where a two party system is still just a concept. I'm thoroughly hooked on the crack that is NH politics.

[FightinNewDem]

4. To follow up...

You think you've got problems? Imagine sitting two rows in front of Stretch Kennedy, Steve Vaillancourt and Tony Soltani. For the whole...damn...session.

Now, the fact that these guys are actually seated in back of three Democrats who don't play well with other children shows you where they stand in the scheme of things!

Maxanne has accurately captured the vibe of the House. At least 45% of the members could pass for the two old hecklers on the Muppet Show. Then you have to consider the array of, shall we say, "different" characters. Frankly, when you have a 400 member House, quality control occasionaly becomes an issue.

The Democratic Party organization is top-heavy and a bit insular. At the local level, it can vary wildly, from Boss Tweed Lite (Manchester) to boomer left (Portsmouth) to salt-of-the-earth middle class Dems (Derry, Hampton).

[TaleWgnDg]

5. Uuummmm, with all due respect to DU Granite Staters . . .

Uuummmm, with all due respect to DU Granite Staters . . . I lived in New Hampshire for more than 15 years and always thought its politics on the other side of reactionary Neanderthal. But the straw that broke the camel's back was when it came time to send my children to its schools, we packed our bags and left. New Hampshire's tax base -- it's non-existent -- sucks. And, strange as it may seem (chuckle) if there are no state or local funds then state and local services suck.

Big time.

However, affluent towns with their respective high residential real estate taxes -- yes, New Hampshire has one or two of those -- have fairly decent elementary and middle schools but then there's the problem of "shared" high school which are typically inferior, overall. Private school for my family wasn't an option not due to the cost but due to the exclusivity and social isolation. I refused! It was bad enough to *feel* isolated in New Hampshire due to its non-cultural base, oh that's another thing, but to further isolate my children, I refused!

New Hampshire is terrific if you are (1) independently wealthy and don't give a damn about the rest of society, or (2) otherwise and don't give 2-sh*ts about your kids and services if your finances tank. Don't get me wrong, the scenery is glorious. Lovely hills, mountains, fantastic fall foliage, etc.

But it's a lousy place if education and culture are your fancy.

________________

edited to add: And, oh, btw, talking about education . . . is kindergarten compulsory yet in New Hampshire? You know, taxpayer paid? Or does each and every family who want their kids to attend kindergarten still have to pay, privately, for it? How many states in the nation have no public kindergarten? Isn't New Hampshire still on the bottom of all U.S. states when it comes to state-funding of public schools? Down there with Mississippi and Louisiana . . . you did read about Louisiana's crappy distribution of public funding of its schools in New Orleans (re hurricane Katrina), yes?

On edit, one more thing . . . Someone in this thread mentioned the Manchester Union Leader newspaper . . . The reactionary idiots, William and Nacky Loeb, who owned and ran Manchester's gag . . . yes, gag, because the Manchester Union Leader for most of its history gagged knowledge from the working class that read its pages . . . the owners lived in one of the most exclusive and affluent towns in Massachusetts! Yes, in Massachusetts whom the Loebs loved to bash due to its "liberalism." They lived in Beverly Farms, Massachusetts on the "Loeb Estate." Talk about hypocrisy. As the Loeb's owned and ran that skanky, gossipy, rightwingnut, bullsh*t, largest selling newspaper in New Hampshire, they didn't walk the talk that they spewed to its readers. The foundation that the Loeb's built due to the Union Leader is one of the reasons that New Hampshire -- to today -- remains a reactionary, isolated out-of-touch state in New England. Since the death of the Loeb's, the Union Leader remains an ultra-rightwing rag but not the only source of news in New Hampshire as it was for many many years.
.

[maxanne]

6. nope

NH does not have compulsory kindergarten yet. My town does have kindergarten, but - it's a really small town...with a 2 room schoolhouse...honest to maude.

TaleWag - you're right about education, taxation, and services. NH provides a level of social services that would cause most 3rd world countries to blush.

It's a strange and wonderful place - but it's not for everyone. There are trade-offs in living here - especially in the north country.

The cultural aspects are improving. When I moved here, theater was summer stock - musicals, mostly. We now have a small theater company that does provocative plays - they've done The Vagina Monologues, and this summer did the play "Nickel and Dimed" with help from my UU congregation. An international music company spends July in the area, doing world class chamber music concerts for $10. NH is growing and changing - quickly.

[TaleWgnDg]

7. thanks for the reply, maxanne . . . hopefully NH will move rapidly.

[Tab]

27. Agreed

and for papers, the Concord Monitor kicks its butt.

Sort of the NPR of the print world.

The Union Leader was so biased and right-wing and non-neutral it was a joke.

I don't usually wish ill on anyone, but I didn't shed any tears when Nacky Loeb died. I remember she pulled some comic strip (forget which - Doonesbury?) because of "pro-gay" content, which was just totally untenable for her.

The rest of the paper, particularly the op/ed, was likewise r/w.

I'll read the Laconia Citizen before I'll read the Onion Leader.

[chuck8314]

8. We had to leave NH thanks to property taxes

I was born and raised in NH, lived in Meredith nearly all my life, as did my wife. We recently left NH for New Mexico, mainly because of the damned property taxes which almost doubled on my home this year.

I love NH, love the fall colors, the hunting and fishing, but on $32K a year income, simply couldn't afford to live there any more. Now, we're living in a home equal to the one we sold and my taxes are $6K a year LESS, and we have the same services, the schools are just as good, and we're actually able to put money away for savings or college for the kids. Also, my winter heating bill promises to be substantially less, meaning more savings.

Do I miss home? You bet, but I've come to the conclusion that the NH motto is a fib. It sure ain't Live Free, and hasn't been since Shaheen. A pox be on her and everyone who put her in office.

[Redneck Socialist]

9. Shaheen? How about Meldrim Thompson, or the Loebs?

Interesting target of your ire, but welcome to DU anyway.

[chuck8314]

10. I seem to recall

she was the one who stuck us with the property tax mess, under the guise of helping education. You can teach kids to read, write, and cipher in a barn.

Anyway, that's all in the past and the tax load is only going to get worse and worse there until the folks wise up and do something about it. I and my wife will be watching from our new home in New Mexico, where we can afford to live, even if there's no good fishing within 150 miles, no real fall colors, and 2000 miles from our roots.

[Redneck Socialist]

11. Property taxes were a disaster here long before Shaheen.

There's gotta be some place good to fish in NM.

[chuck8314]

17. Yes, there are good places to fish

in New Mexico -- if you want to drive 100 miles one way, at least from where we now live. It's a huge change from throwing a pole over my shoulder and walking 15 minutes to a stream.

Fortunately, where we live is similar to our home in NH when it comes to hunting. I can walk out the back door and be hunting dove and quail in 10 minutes, or deer within a mile walk, so all isn't lost.

New Hampshire's quality of life and, unfortunately all of Northern New England, is going the way of the Dodo. It's nothing like it used to be. I'm glad I knew it the way it was.

[Tab]

28. No

The property tax thing has been around long before her - but she was Governor when the Claremont ruling was issued.

She *could* have resolved it, but she felt more strongly about having taken "The Pledge", without realizing that most of us are sick and tired of taxes.

I had to sell an absolutely gorgeous home, in part because of taxes, and even if I tolerated the taxes temporarily (a few more years) I would never have been able to retire, because 25 years from now the taxes would eclipse everyh other expense.

There are people who have inherited lakefront property, bought by their parents or grandparents, that now is valued very high and have to sell because although they make, say, $60k/year, they can't afford the $50k/year on their family property.

I'd rather have a sales and/or income tax. If I'm earning the money, I'm happy to pay the tax, but if I'm retired on a fixed income, where's that money going to come from?

I don't blame Shaheen for the mess, I just blame her for wussing out and not doing anything about it.

[FightinNewDem]

30. Rent and Property Taxes

Let's not forget the impact that the property tax has on rental costs. The market is screwed up enough to start with, and then property taxes add a hidden surcharge onto the monthly expense.

It's a very real problem, and one which tax reform advocates have never made clear.

[maxanne]

12. she did manage to nip

a state income tax in the bud, during her tenure as gov.

Jeanne was a nice moderate Republican.

[Redneck Socialist]

13. I won't argue your description of her, but...

she did exactly what said she would do during the campaign. An unfortunate missed opportunity, but it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. Shaheen was a hellava lot better than

her follow up- Benson- he was a hummer of a disaster-

The problem with my beloved home state is that too many wealthy people claim this land as home, but don't 'live' here.

I'm old enough to remember wm.Loeb- (he went beyond the label of jerk) My Dad favored King. We DID have some pretty decent Gov.'s - Hugh Gallen was the best in my lifetime, Sununu was not good, Steve Merrell was ok, Judd Gregg was pretty much as he is as a senator, not representing my beliefs-
As for living free- we lived alot 'freer' before the influx of new-comers (aka. flatlanders) which is a really unfortunate way of speaking of the most destructive 'people from away'- But the arrival of people seeking asylum from states with overbearing governments has brought with it expectations of services that bring with them the NEED for overbearing taxes and regulations- so, we lose and so do the new folks-
I've known some pretty awesome transplants, but unfortunately, they don't usually come in with a big 'agenda'- wanting to bring in all sorts of regulations, and covenants... lots of lost land is now housing devolopments where the name is all that remains of the beauty they destroyed to create like "Maple Grove Estates", "Highmowing", "Solitary Ridge".... places that sell for 300,000 to start, where the design of your home has to 'pass muster' no kids toys are to be left in the yard, no clotheslines in public view etc. The problem with places such as this, are that we who have lived here for generations, are being assessed as if our homes were potential 'developments'- and have to resort to current use or sell out.
NH is indeed a beautiful, off-beat, rugged, and sometimes tough place to live. Our income is still very 'tourist' orented- our lack of sales tax creates shopping 'entertainment parks' that are called 'outlet malls'- I don't know how the state figures it's per capita income figures, because even though I've heard of some folks I believe are pretty well off (Stretch Kennedy for one) my circle is one of very modest means- and hasn't changed much.
Black flies, mud season, leaf-peapers, and some disrespectful tourists, are among the downsides to living here. Summers have become pretty humid- something that is CLEARLY different than what I knew as a child almost 30 yrs ago.
Sometimes people seem offended by the 'distance' many new-comers are met with- it's not dislike, or suspicion, but rather a respect for privacy, and a tendency not to 'rush' into anything from my own view.

I thought it pretty appropriate that the "old man" fell off the mountain, after Bush carried this nation to shame- we ALL lost face- and was overjoyed that at last we 'turned blue' in the 2004 election. But was also glad * lost to McCain the first time, and was surprised and ticked at that slap in the face-

We're an odd bunch- but Canada is the only place I'd leave here for- Hope you come check us out, I stood at a vigil the otherday at the capital with two older folks recent transplants from Michigan and Illinois, good people, with open minds, and a love for what they 'found' here.-

[maxanne]

15. true

I have to change my pants every time I hear her referred to as a "liberal Democrat," however.

[Tab]

16. Decent questions

I grew up in next door Vermont, have lived in NH for 15 years, and am a software architect like your husband/BF.

1) Are out-of-staters welcome? Certainly. Just about everyone in NH (at least the southern half) is from out of state, so no one cares. And in-comers from CO are probably more appreciated than those from MA or CT.

2) Would you be able to find work?
For he: Probably as much as anywhere else, depending on what he specializes in. If he doesn't consult, and needs to work for "a company", he'll probably do better in the southern part of the state and/or seacoast. If you live in the Manchester area, Boston and Lowell are less than an hour away, putting all sorts of jobs within reach. If you live where I do (central NH) it's another hour's drive. Take note: although it's a small state, the bulk of the transportation is vertical (north/south). If you choose to live in, say, Keene, and work in Boston, you'll spend half your time just driving west.

I would recommend he peruse dice.com, which is filled with tech jobs for this region.

For she: Well, which are you, medieval historian, or psychologist?
That said, I haven't seen any medieval historian jobs in the paper lately. Psychologist probably do best in private practice.

3) State Universities
There's UNH (University of New Hampshire) and then the state college system (which includes things like Plymouth State University which is really the former Plymouth State College). Best around, albeit private, is Dartmouth, maybe an hour from Manchester area. Other than that, the public ones are not overly notable, but probably okay. Some nice ones like Colby Sawyer are around. Ask around in your profession. If you want to do law, Franklin Pierce (in Concord) is very excellent.

4) Housing under $350,000
Actually very much so. Depending on where you are, you can get a gorgeous house for about $250k, $350k certainly. Check out http://www.nnhre.com (Northern New England Real Estate) which has MLS listings. There's others specific to southern NH, but I can't think of their URL at the moment.

5) Warn you about?
New Hampshire prostitutes itself, IMO, in the name of being "tax free". Make no mistake, I think most people live here because they can still drive to Boston and yet be near the lakes and mountains, tax-free be damned. NH has liquor stores off the highway, NASCAR racing, gambling, and motorcyle week (god, don't get me started) all in the name of raising revenue because we're "tax-free". If you live in a high-land-value, low-child-population (e.g.: resort) town, your child will have a wonderful school, but if you live in a blue-collar, high-population town, your taxes will be high and education resources will suck.

If you think you can find a job in Burlington, VT (check dice.com), I'd strongly suggest that. It's wonderful, much more Colorado-ish (shades of Colorado Springs / Boulder / San Francisco), it's a blast to live in, great schools, etc. Jobs, however, are limited to the Burlington / Essex Junction / Colchester area, but IDX has a big presence there, as does/did IBM, and once upon a time, Digital. I'd move back to Burlington in a second (and probably will, someday).

- Tab

[Tab]

21. My correction on the link

for real estate.

Should be http://www.nneren.com

[Tesha]

18. If I had free choice...

If I were unconstrained by stuff like mortgages, a pretty nice house
being made nicer via a kitchen remodel, and such like, I'd say:

1. Burlington, VT -- It's pretty much a liberal haven/heaven. The
home of the University of Vermont, it sits on a hillside on the
east shore of Lake Champlain and is very scenic, very open, and
you'll be able to breath there (as in, you won't spend every minute
of every hour of every day clenching your teeth and saying *GOD I
HATE ALL THESE FUCKERS!"). On the other hand, it's pretty cold in
the wintertime (about 10 degrees (F) colder than southern VT or
NH).

2. Portsmouth, NH -- It's the most liberal place in NH. It has
commuter bus service to Boston and is conveniently close to the
University of NH campus at Durham. It's got a nice city culture
and sits on a river/harbor facing the Atlantic Ocean.

3. Concord, NH. Surpsisingly enough, even though this is the
capital of a *VERY, VERY CONSERVATIVE* state, it's a pretty liberal
area. Liz Hager, who used to be their Republican state senator, is
a very progressive woman. I imagine it's the executive bureacracy
that contributes to this; the people who actually have to make
government work, day in and day out, often perceive the role of
government differently than the octogenarians who form the
political leadership of the Granite-hearted State.

4. Maine. The southernmost parts of the state are within daily
commuting distance of Boston (just across the Piscataqua River
from Portsmouth) and if you like outlet malls, Maine is your
ticket. Farther up state, there's an entire seacoast of quant
tourist towns, but probably not much opportunity for an his-
torian until you get near the University of Maine, and even then
probably scant opportunity.

99. If you can, *AVOID* the Golden Triangle (Salem, Nashua,
Manchester, and all the libertarian wasteland in the middle).
It's exactly what you'd expect if you took and crammed together
into meaningless unplanned suburban sprawl everyone who moved
out of Massachusetts trying to avoid paying for any public
service, even the ones they depend upon. It will suck the soul
directly out of your body and give it to a Republican legislator
as an illegal campaign contribution. And once it takes over your
mind, you'll actually start to believe the bullshit that floats
in the air like some sick miasma, bullshit that says NH don't
need no stinking Massachusetts, even though 60,000 people each
day get on Route 3 and 93 and drive to Massachusets to collect
their paycheck from employers in Massachusetts. And unless you
intend to become a vampire and live your entire life indoors at
one of those Cathedrals of Comercialism and Consumption (the
Rockhearted Mall, the Dead Pheasant Mall, or the Maul of New
Hampshire), there is *NOTHING* that life in the Golden Triangle
can offer you that you can't find better, closer, and friendlier
somewhere else in the state.

Finally, if you think you can afford housing, seriously consider
just surrendering and living in Massachusetts. Both of you will
find a far wider range of employment, although housing prices will
be substantially higher. Being a resident of Mass also gives you
certain advantages that you definitely lose being a NH resident
who commutes into Mass to work.

Tesha

[FightinNewDem]

19. Hager's not a progressive

Liz Hager a progressive? No way.

Liz is a classic Pelvic Liberal. She is pro-choice and pro-gay rights, but after that she is a fairly typical chamber of commerce Republican. her record on labor issues is nothing to get excited about.

Look at the stunt she pulled during the budget debate last year. She buckled to the conservatives in her caucus and voted against her own amendment, leaving co-sponsor Mary Jane Wallner twisting in the wind. It was a sleazy, backstabbing manuever that said a lot about one's priorities.

[Tesha]

20. That still puts her above most NH pols.

> Liz is a classic Pelvic Liberal. She is pro-choice and pro-gay
> rights, but after that she is a fairly typical chamber of commerce
> Republican.

That still puts her above most NH pols, probably including Jeanne
Shaheen. I mean, when Shaheen was handed the once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity to end the death penalty in NH, she vetoed the bill
(because she had her eye on running for the U.S. Senate). She
failed to win the Senate seat and we failed to end the death
penalty in NH; "Thanks, Jeanne!"

Tesha

[Tab]

22. Now THAT'S classic

It will suck the soul directly out of your body and give it to a Republican legislator as an illegal campaign contribution. And once it takes over your mind, you'll actually start to believe the bullshit that floats in the air like some sick miasma, bullshit that says NH don't
need no stinking Massachusetts, even though 60,000 people each day get on Route 3 and 93 and drive to Massachusets to collect their paycheck from employers in Massachusetts. And unless you intend to become a vampire and live your entire life indoors at one of those Cathedrals of Comercialism and Consumption (the Rockhearted Mall, the Dead Pheasant Mall, or the Maul of New Hampshire), there is *NOTHING* that life in the Golden Triangle can offer you that you can't find better, closer, and friendlier somewhere else in the state.

:)

[Tesha]

23. Thanks! It probably comes from reading too much Mark Morford!(NT)

[Tesha]

24. Portsmouth has another advantage of sorts

> 2. Portsmouth, NH -- It's the most liberal place in NH. It has
> commuter bus service to Boston and is conveniently close to the
> University of NH campus at Durham. It's got a nice city culture
> and sits on a river/harbor facing the Atlantic Ocean.

Portsmouth has another advantage of sorts.

Kittery, Maine, just across the harbor, is (still) the home of
the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard where our Ohio-class strategic
nuclear missile submarines ("boomers") are repaired. If nuclear
tensions ever come to a "shootin' war", you can rest assured that
the Portsmouth area will probably receive at least several hundred
kilotons of nuclear explosives right quick so from a the point of
view of a Portsmouth resident, it will all be over in a probably-
painless few nanoseconds.

This is an advantage compared to much of the rest of the east coast
where folks will end up dying a long, lingering death from the
fallout that drifts in from the Midwest cities and cornfield ICBM
installations.

(Remember Dr. Falken's plan in "War Games"? Paraphrased: "I've
planned it carefully; there's a primary target just two miles
from here.")

Tesha

[Tesha]

26. BTW, according to FEMA, I'm wrong.

Here's an intersting map, courtesy of FEMA via the Bulletin of the
Atomic Scientists:

http://www.thebulletin.org/pdf/061_005_033.pdf

But FEM doesn't seem to show much effect for either Portsmouth, NH
or New London, CT, and I'm pretty sure as nuke sub bases, both of
those sites are large-scale targets.

Tesha

[maxanne]

29. but..

Seabrook Station, the nuke plant is just a shout away from Portsmouth. The potential for devastation on the seacoast is great, and the potential for evacuation is almost non-existant.

[maxanne]

25. beeyootiful

It's exactly what you'd expect if you took and crammed together
into meaningless unplanned suburban sprawl everyone who moved
out of Massachusetts trying to avoid paying for any public
service, even the ones they depend upon. It will suck the soul
directly out of your body and give it to a Republican legislator
as an illegal campaign contribution. And once it takes over your
mind, you'll actually start to believe the bullshit that floats
in the air like some sick miasma, bullshit that says NH don't
need no stinking Massachusetts, even though 60,000 people each
day get on Route 3 and 93 and drive to Massachusets to collect
their paycheck from employers in Massachusetts.

This is just so priceless, Tesha - thank you!!