I'm interested in derailing NYC's bid for the 2012 Olympics

[KurtNYC]

If there is already an on-going effort I would like to join it. Here is why:

1. The recent games in Greece were a disaster. The Greeks spent a fortune to build all of the venues, provide security and schmooze and booze the IOC. Attendance was embarrassing and the TV ratings were only fair.

2. Every city that has hosted the Olympics recently has saddled their taxpayers with a huge debt for decades. The 1976 Montreal games are the poster child for this since they bankrupted the city.
The debt from other games:
MONTREAL, 1976: Debt: $1 billion (globe and mail; abcnews.com)
CALGARY, 1988: Debt: $910 million
BARCELONA, 1992: Debt: US$1.4 billion
SYDNEY, 2000: Games billed as self-financing by politicians were a
$2.3-billion loss (Auditor General New South Wales Report on Sydney (2000 Olympics)
Utah tax revenues post-Olympics have fallen so far short
of predictions that the state is facing a US$155 million shortfall, has slashed
spending, dipped into emergency funding, and may have to order more employee
layoffs.

http://nolimpiadi.8m.com/moneyloser.html

So this is fiscal masochism. No socially responsible politician would ever offer his taxpayers' money to the IOC.

3. The Olympics are now the embodiment of corruption. Utah scandalously used prostitutes, free condos and other bribes to sway the IOC. And when they got caught said in effect that these bribes are part of any serious bid to host the games. Kickbacks, construction contracts, a buffet of taxpayer ripoffs which will only enrich the criminals embedded in our public agencies.

And the games themselves are corrupt. As we saw clearly in the vote exchange that Russian and French Olympic judges engineered during the skating competitions in Utah to defraud the Canadian skating pair of Gold. The solution was not to arrest these judges for fraud and blackmail but to gloss things over by awarding a second gold.

http://deseretnews.com/oly/view/0,3949,70000792,00.html

4. The Olympics are plagued by and therefore encourage the use of dangerous illegal drugs. So many steroid and blood doping incidents have become public knowledge that the message to our youth is that you better be prepared to destroy your endocrine system to have any shot at a medal (and even if you do you may get ripped off if you are in a judged event, see #3 above).

The flip side is that the IOC has actually tried to pressure companies like Amgen to pollute their medicines like Neupogen with elements they can test for. In other words the IOC wants millions of cancer patients to suffer additional burden on their livers and immune systems because there is currently no way to test for Neupogen blood doping. This is clearly a messed up set of priorities.

5. Security would be an enormous problem. Just as we saw in Athens, we could expect frozen zones, machine guns and dogs, planes that are equipped to elude heat seeking shoulder fired rockets, etc.

6. New York City has other things that need to be a higher priority. Housing, schools, a sub-standard subway system, lagging tourism, runaway jobs and businesses.

In short, in a world without am-news-ia (the media's ignoring of past results and cause and effect relationships), Bloomberg wouldn't go near an Olympic bid with a 50-foot pole. The stench of corruption and public debt from the Olympics would deter honorable people from even discussing hosting the games.

Half a dozen cities are bidding for the 2012 Games and the loser will host them.

[iconoclastNYC]

1. Two sides to every coin

Attendance and TV ratings are not the sole measure of success. You need to look at the long term increase in tourism, the economic benefits from that increaed tourism, and the taxes that comes in from the long term benefit. In this context one should view the cities expenditures as an investment and not as a one-off expense.

A of the money spent to prepare for the Olympics goes to directly to infrastructure improvements and citi beautification. These benefit of these projects have a long asting positive effect on the city and can reinvigorate economic depressed areas of the city. The plans for LIC for example are widely expected to increase the economic viability of that area.

The games are a good way get people to support tax increases or bond issue to finance long lasting and economicaly desirable infrastructure improvements.

Doping is a major problem in Major League Baseball. I hope you are spearheading an effort to get NYC to dump the Mets and the Yankees.

Security was a problem for the Thug Convention and it was handled without a hitch. NYC is under permanent orange alert and has the world's largest and best trained and equipped police force

Bribery is an issue that can be dressed with more transparency and auditing, etc, and is no reason to turn away the games.

But it's all moot because America will not get the bid. The Olympics are mainly run by "Old Europe", and W has pissed them off badly. We aren't going to get it. I except Madrid to get it. Spain is Europe's economic rising star.

[jrthin]

2. I'm sorry, but when

did we need an incentive to get tourists to New York City? We don't. Further, most of us are not fooled by the carrot stick of more money. Bloomberg and his ilks used the same "more money for NYC" argument to get the rethug convention. In the end, many small businesses were hurt and the money we gained vs. spent became a draw.

I, too, want to derail this Olympic effort, but I also want to derail the idiot behind it, Bloomberg.

[KurtNYC]

3. But the other side of a cesspool of corruption is still

a cesspool of corruption.

No city that has hosted the Olympics has made money on the deal. Not one.

[iconoclastNYC]

5. On what do you base that?

Is there a comprehensive study that factors in the issues I raised? If so I'd like to read it.

[KurtNYC]

6. Sure and btw where are your facts?

You say tourism will cover the expected $1 to $3 billion net loss -- where are YOUR facts? If understood you correctly you just said that even though the Athens games were horribly under attended and cost way more than promised somehow tourism made up the difference. When did the tourists come? Not during the games apparently.

Here is the trail of destruction and economic woe the IOC has unleashed:

MONTREAL, 1976: Debt: $1 billion (globe and mail; abcnews.com)
CALGARY, 1988: Debt: $910 million
BARCELONA, 1992: Debt: US$1.4 billion
SYDNEY, 2000: Games billed as self-financing by politicians were a
$2.3-billion loss (Auditor General New South Wales Report on Sydney) Utah tax revenues post-Olympics have fallen so far short of predictions that the state is facing a US$155 million shortfall, has slashed spending, dipped into emergency funding, and may have to order more employee layoffs.

Taxpayers in Atlanta and Barcelona are still paying a surcharge to work off the debt from the Games.

Many more facts with government sources here: http://nolimpiadi.8m.com/moneyloser.html

Your turn.

[iconoclastNYC]

8. Here you go

First of all the only thing you are showing are the costs, those are your only facts, and they only show one side of the story, the expenses.

That's like saying Exxon is bad for the economy because Exxon's operating costs are in the billions annually while completely ignoring the fact that they bring in billions more in revenue.

The Olympmics do not need to pay for themselves by the end of the games to be a net benefit for the hosting city/country. You have to look at the long term impact to the economy.

So here are some facts for you to chew on:

"This study was conducted by PricewaterhouseCoopers at the request of the NSW Department of State and Regional Development (DSRD) in order to collate evidence as to the range of business and economic benefits of the Sydney 2000 Olympic and Paralympic Games.

* some $3 billion in business outcomes, including:
-$600 million in new business investment
-$288 million in new business under the Australian Technology Showcase
-almost $2 billion in post-Games sports infrastructure and service contracts
* of the above $3 billion, over $500 million has been secured in contracts, sales and new investment by businesses located in regional NSW
* injection of over $6 billion in infrastructure developments in NSW
* injection of over $1.2 billion worth of convention business for NSW between 1993 and 2007
* over $6 billion in inbound tourism spending during 2001
* greatly enhanced business profile for Sydney, NSW and Australia through the equivalent of up to $6.1 billion worth of international exposure
* greater expertise and confidence in tendering, both domestically and overseas, on large-scale projects
* new and improved business programs including strong collaboration with the private sector.

http://www.business.nsw.gov.au/facts.asp?cid=309

[KurtNYC]

10. Those are also expenses

$600 million in new business investment

The games are a windfall for developers, contractors and the huge firms that get construction contracts. But the people of Atlanta are still paying for the Atlanta Games.

They don't compare the amounts spent to the amounts received. They only talked about how they spent all these billions of dollars to host corrupt sporting competitions that last 16 days.

Here the Brits look at their bid for 2012:

The cost however is something that does concern people. The bill for the Olympics in Athens in the summer of 2004 has been estimated at more than double the original budgeted target. The Greek finance minister has reported that the cost will amount to €9 billion or £6.3 billion. He also estimates that the final bill will be much higher given that the cost of developing the infrastructure for the Games has not yet been settled.

Most Games it seems have suffered from cost pressures; the cost of the 2000 Games in Sydney was budgeted at £1 billion but went over budget and as far back as Montreal in Canada in 1976, the dreams of the Mayor of Montreal, Jean Drapeau, have left a legacy of a stadium that has been costly to maintain and which is still costing Montreal taxpayers money! Drapeau claimed in January 1973 that the Montreal Olympics would be self-financing and that it would even make a profit!

The taxpayers are completely left holding the bag. IOC rules forbid Olympic revenues (such as broadcast rights, corporate sponsorships and ticket sales) from being used to cover costs such as construction, environmental remediation and infrastructure.

http://www.breadnotcircuses.org/realchk2.html

This is so typical of local governments who trip over each other to build brand new sports stadiums at taxpayer expense so they can drink Don Perignon in the luxury sky boxes with their partners in crime. Enron and Conseco both had their names on these tax-payer funded stadiums.

[KurtNYC]

17. More PWC numbers

You cited PricewaterhouseCoopers study. Here are some more facts from them:

The games reached their financial nadir with the Montreal Olympics in 1976. That event left a $1.2 billion deficit, which is still being paid off with the help of a supplementary tobacco tax, according to a recent study by accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP.
...
``There is huge uncertainty about any of the benefits,'' said John Hawksworth, head of PwC's macroeconomics unit in a telephone interview from London. ``Take tourism, for example. Some people will go to Athens for the games, but some will be put off. You have to be skeptical, because of course many of the figures are published by people promoting the games.''

And note (with irony) the source of this item -- Bloomberg news service (!): http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_lynn&sid=aznBwr3ab48w#

[Poppyseedman]

4. Move the games to Baghdad

at least the money spent will actually go for infrastructure.

Security should be a breeze. All the terrorists are already there

Let the U.N. pay for it. There's billions stashed away in from the "Oil for Food" scandal in someones bank account.

:-)

[BrklynLiberal]

13. THAT is an excellent idea!!!

[KurtNYC]

7. IOC Corruption is Pandemic

IOC Official is Going to Jail
SEOUL - South Korea's Supreme Court upheld a two-year jail term and a heavy fine Friday for disgraced IOC vice president Kim Un-Yong, convicted of massive corruption.
...
Previously Kim was given a severe warning when the IOC investigated the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympics scandal. Implicated in corruption allegations, 10 IOC members were either expelled or forced to resign in connection with the Games.
http://www.businessday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1789438-6078-0,00.html

About Salt Lake:

It's a scandal of Olympic proportions. The International Olympic Committee is reeling under allegations that some members accepted bribes of cash, gifts, even the service of prostitutes to give Salt Lake City the 2002 Winter Games. The IOC is investigating, some members are tendering their resignations, and corporate sponsors are getting skittish. Meanwhile, as we see in this clip, Canadians are watching closely. Calgary wants to pick up the pieces. Quebec City wants a refund.
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-41-1373-8390/sports/olympic_bids/clip9

And Sydney:

Attempts by international and Australian Olympic Committee (AOC) officials to maintain a "squeaky-clean" image for the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games collapsed dramatically last week when AOC president John Coates released documents revealing that he, and other officials, had been involved in extensive votebuying in 1993 to secure Sydney's Games' bid.
...
Shane Maloney from the Melbourne Committee that bid for the 1996 Games revealed on January 21 that his organisation, on IOC president Juan Antonio Samaranch's request, donated an expensive Aboriginal painting to the Olympic Museum in Switzerland. They also arranged for the daughter of a South Korean delegate to play with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. Six African IOC delegates are reported to have requested new Holden cars and the services of local prostitutes from Melbourne officials.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jan1999/olym-j30.shtml

And Athens:
Athens scandal witness stabbed
A top Greek sports journalist and key witness into scandals involving the Athens Olympics was beaten and stabbed in an attack his newspaper labelled an assassination attempt on Tuesday.

Police said Filippos Sirigos, sports editor at major daily newspaper Eleftherotypia, was stabbed multiple times and beaten with crowbars in central Athens on Monday afternoon by at least two assailants as he left a weekly radio show he hosts.
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s82/e3012/sport_lng0_spo82_evt3012_sto649307.shtml

Yep, doping scandals, bid rigging, bribes, prostitutes, and attempted murder. Let the Games begin?

[Renew Deal]

9. You just reminded me to sign up as a volunteer for the Games.

I'll explain how way off you are when I have more time.

[Lauri16]

11. The rest of NY state cannot afford this

Here in a little cow town in upstate, I can assure you that there is no way we can afford this. In the end, we all know that it's going to be coming out of the pockets of Upstate as with everything else that goes on.

If NYC wants the Games, then they can foot the bill for it. If there is a profit, no one outside of NYC will see a dime of it anyway. I'm tired of watching farmers lose everything because all the money has to go downstate for one thing or another, and the hosting the games is just foolish.

[BrklynLiberal]

12. I live in NYC, and the last think I want is the Olympics in NYC!

It will mean total chaos for the people who live and work here, and it will gain us nothing. It will end up costing us lots of time and money, neither of which we will ever get back.
We get screwed enough every time the UN has a big event, or the asshole in the White House has to come here, or we have to put up with any of the other ten million useless photo-ops that cost the NYC taxpayers money and screw up NYC traffic so that the commuters end up getting home 4 hours late.
Keep the Olympics out of NYC!!!!
Leave Chelsea alone. No new stadium! It is a neighborhood...not a weekend parking lot for football fans.

[makhno]

14. Sign me up; fuck the olympics

The last thing the city needs is additional financial and security pressures.

Oh, but what about the tourist revenues?

Here's some data:

Visitors (international and domestic) to New York City in 2004 39.6 million
Visitors (international and domestic) to New York City in 2001 35.2 million
Visitors (international and domestic) to New York City in 1998: 33.1 million

Do we really need the city to spend additional money on venues that will take place outside of the five boroughs? Do we really need the city to spend millions of dollars on police and other emergency services overtime? Does anyone seriously think that the international community will allow the games back in the US after the global carnage perpetrated by George W. Bush?

And most importantly, of all the issues that plague New York - no money for first responders, no money for mass transit, no money for schools, no money for the homeless - are the olympics really that important? You want the olympics back in the US? Have DC host them. That's another city used to taking it up the ass on the altar of national responsibility. Maybe we New Yorkers should lobby to have Taxation Without Representation on our plates as well.

Maybe we shouldn't get worked up about this: the odds say common sense will prevail.

[KurtNYC]

16. Odds of 14 to 1 against NYC but

Bloomberg just spent $20 million in city funds on a hasty ad campaign that is aimed at 15 people. That is $1.33 million per visiting IOC official! If they are spending that much publicly, it makes me wonder what else they may be paying. I truly hope that 14 to 1 is a true appraisal of our chances but Bloomberg has pulled off the near impossible before (beating Mark Green after trailing badly in polls, enacting the smoking ban, cutting firefighters after 911) so I am still worried. Also, the very nerve to suggest spending $12+ billion on the Olympics is just obscene. That they have the nerve to stand shoulder to shoulder with corrupt scandal tainted Olympics and propose a $12 billion donation to the grand cause is unsettling,

IOC official will be in town starting Sunday night, February 20th. They will be staying at the Plaza Hotel which is winding down its operations as a hotel, and they will have views of Christo's Gates.

The Bloomberg plan is now to woo the media.
The news media, though, are free to be wooed with no restraints, so NYC2012 will turn its charm on the nearly 200 reporters it expects to cover the visit. They hail from everywhere from the Netherlands to Japan and include particularly interested parties from the other bid cities - Paris, London, Madrid and Moscow.

They will be provided with a 24-hour work space at the Plaza, free personal concierge service and wireless Internet access everywhere they go, including the tour buses.

"The evaluation commission is so important because it is, to some extent, the eyes and ears of the I.O.C.," said Dan Doctoroff, the deputy mayor and the founder of NYC2012. "And the media becomes the vehicle for delivering the message to the I.O.C. members who can no longer make the visit."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/14/sports/othersports/14olympics.html?pagewanted=print&position=

[Danmel]

15. I can't think of a worse idea

Hey, I love New York as much as anyone can- and Ilove to promote our wonderful city (DUers who haven't been here, get here post haste- this truly is a wonderful place to visit ( and live, if you have enough money)

But NY needs to host Olympics like I need to shrink a few inches.

The logistics will be a nightmare, the expense exorbitant, the West Side Stadium is one of the worst ideas to come along in years, and it's not as if we aren't already a target. Why not just paint a giant bulls-eye on us already?

I hope it goes somewhere else. I really do. Otherwise, I'm off to somewhere far away in the summer of 2012 (if Bushco hasn't gotten us all killed by then)

[T_i_B]

18. Please come over to London

I for one would like to see the London bid passed over too, particularly for the Debt reason.

I grew up in a city in England which decided to host the 1991 World Student games. They were a massive flop which left us with lots of white elephant projects the city does not need and a LOT of debt. I don't want to see London go the same way, evidently it's the same for you and NY Kurt.

[KurtNYC]

19. It sounded like a good idea and probably still does to many

New York already has a big variety of facilities and we can make athletes from just about any country feel at home. But the current thrust of the IOC is for cheaper games and that has been ignored.

A local weekly has this headline in kiosk's all over the city:


They include this fact in their argument:

Economists disagree with each other about almost everything. It should tell us something that every economist who has studied stadiums agrees that they don't generate economic growth. It should tell us something when a Stanford economist says, "opening a branch of Macy's" has more economic impact on San Francisco than the San Francisco Giants do. It should tell us something that in study after study, cities with stadiums do no better, in terms of jobs or growth or image, than cities without them.

http://www.nypress.com/18/7/pagetwo/newshole7.cfm

I have the perfect ad buster for London's IOC ads. Apparently they have written "back the bid" on everything that stands upright in the city of London. Make a sticker that has "Fe" in the right size to cover the first two letters of 'Back the Bid'. You slap the sticker on and bingo -- "Fe ck the bid"

I think the answer is to have the games in the same place every four years. Athens seems appropriate but they probably don't want them either.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. Thinking that maybe the rest of the world hates Bush so much they

would never want the Olympics here.
Heard on the radio this AM that Bloomberg is spending $3million dollars entertaining the IOC trying to convince them that NYC would be a good idea for the Olympics.
Hope they realize what a ridiculous idea it would be.

[henslee]

21. Kurt, I have given up on NY. The mallification of this city makes me

sick. I hate oversized development.

A stadium on the west side is retarded. The traffic alone would be ridiculous. There is no reason not to stick it outside the city. Why not college point?

This city is starting to look like everywhere else. I miss the nooks and crannies. I live for them. I miss the randomness, the weirness, the haphazardous that results from the chaos and diversity.

[Renew Deal]

22. I was at the games in Greece

And they were not a disaster by any stretch. They were an overwhelming success when it came to the athleticism and presentation of the games. Remember, these are the first post 9/11 games. Greece was on a budget that was impossible to meet after 9/11.

Attendance was mixed. Greece is a small, not very wealthy country. Games in the afternoon that were inexpensive and interesting we're packed. Soccer, beach volleyball, basketball, handball, volleyball, water polo, swimming and some others did very well. Ticket sales will not be an issue in NYC. There are as many people here as all of Greece. There are fans of every sport here. Also the culture here is closer to a normal schedule than Greece.

Sports like gymnastics were a different deal. I bought tickets to the Mens all around final here before I left. They were $168 per ticket. Greeks don't have that kind of money. The event was filled with foreigners. Also events that were scheduled early in the day had trouble. Greeks party late and sleep late during the summer. They evacuate Athens during August for vacations. Some stayed behind to work the games, but many left.

There is some corruption with the games, but not any more than any other large organization. The Olympics were used as a way to bring peace to the Greek lands. Warring cities would stop fighting during the games. Peace is still a central part of the games. They talk about Peace throughout the world. There isn't another mainstream, large organization talking about Peace on earth the way the Olympics can. http://www.olympic.org/uk/passion/humanity/index_uk.asp

Your 4th point is completely dishonest or in other words a lie. The Olympics have the strictest testing of any sport anywhere. Here is something about how they handled doping in Athens. http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/athens2004/antidoping/index_uk.asp

To claim that "IOC wants millions of cancer patients to suffer additional burden on their livers and immune systems because there is currently no way to test for Neupogen blood doping" is just shameful.

Your 5th point is comical. You must not have been in NYC for the RNC convention. They used similar tactics to Athens. I never felt scared in Athens. I'm not sure what you mean by machine guns, but they won't be carrying anything that they don't carry already.

Your 6th point sells the reason why NY should have the games. The Olympic village (4400 units) is typically converted to low income housing. The tax revenue from hotels, fares, sales and other taxes will be used for the school systems. The subways will be expanded and improved for the games. Tourism will instantly go up with a major bump in 2012. Jobs and small businesses in particular will spring up all over NYC. There will be many projects to complete over the 6 years before the games. Some of the companies will stay after the games end. We're talking about thousands of new jobs.

NYC is the perfect home for the games. It's where they belong. This is the home of the UN. This is the capitol of the world. There are people from everywhere and they will come out to see their countrymen in potentially the greatest games of all time.

[KurtNYC]

24. Athens budget was $1.1 billion euros - they spent 800% of that!

Perhaps you can explain how Athen's hosting the Olympics managed to cover expenses that went 800% over budget?

All funds Greece invested for the expenses of the Olympic Games have amounted to 3 billion Euro-dollars, surpassing to a great extent the original budget of 1.14 billion Euro-dollars. And when the Olympic curtain rises the expense will continue to rise and is possible to reach 6 billion Euro-dollars. Apparently, the Greek official held a suspicious attitude as to whether the Olympic Games would be able to gain before the opening of the games. Recent news has it that the expenditure of Olympics Athens has pressed on 8.6 billion of Euro-dollars.

That is the expense side. Here is income:

Take the two biggest sources of income -- the right of TV transmission and top-supporter plan for instance, the selling of the transmission right has got in 1.498 billion US dollars while the top supporters' advertisements have exceeded 0.6 billion US dollars.

http://english.people.com.cn/200409/09/eng20040909_156421.html

Thats a loss of ~$7.2 billion.

NYC2012 says their budget is $12 billion. If they go 8x over that, then NYC taxpayers will be underwriting bonds for around $100 billion. Even if they brought it in for $12 bil, that is a tax burden of $1500 for every human in the 5 boroughs (tickets to the Games NOT included). To add insult to injury, they will start telling NYers to plan their vacations around the two weeks the games will be here -- they did it in Los Angeles.

I could cite lots more examples of corruption and taxpayer ripoffs but I know you aren't much into the numbers.

If you volunteer for the Games in 2012, I hope you enjoy lots of great french food. ;-)

[brooklynite]

23. Not sure you need to go to much effort at this point...

Current bookie odds:

Paris 1.33/1
London 3.5/1
Madrid 15/1
New York 15/1
Moscow 51/1

http://www.online-betting-guide.co.uk/2012-Olympic-Bid.htm

City Olympic spirit sags - poll

New Yorkers don't want the Olympics as badly as do people in the other cities vying for the 2012 Games, a new poll indicates. The poll - commissioned by the International Olympic Committee and reported by the AFP news service - revealed that 59% of New Yorkers want the games. That compared with support in London of 68%; Madrid, 91%; Paris, 85%, and Moscow, 77%.
New York's polling numbers were lower than what NYC2012, the city's bid committee, reported in its bid to the IOC. The bid committee pegged local support as between 64% and 79%.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/286216p-245069c.html

[KurtNYC]

25. Thanks for the tip

I did contact others opposing the bid here just prior to the IOC's visit. We had a way to communicate directly with the committee members but those with more inside knowledge than I were not interested.

They view the IOC as a "predatory organization" -- one that basically provides an excuse for local politicians and construction firms to put huge projects with firm deadlines (extra profit/fees) on the taxpayers tab. They felt that NY's chances were "excellent" because the media money would be greater if they held the games here.

15 to 1 is a great payoff if one believes as I do that the real odds are closer to 2 to 1.

[Catchawave]

26. Brooklyn Girl here....

...sign me up Kurt!

Would also like to take Times Square back from Disney :)

On my last visit, I know the folks in Hell's Kitchen are very much against the stadium. It would be a shame to level that historic part of town, the residents are working so hard to renovate. It's quite charming.

Here's a tidbit, I think from South Africa?

http://www.news24.com/News24/Sport/More_Sport/0,,2-9-32_1670071,00.html