What's the skinny on Ohio Ballot Issue #3...Gambling?

[liberalnurse]

Where do the Ohio Democrats stand on this? I saw an early morning local-TV news, WHIO discussion on this but I didn't get the factual feel for it as of yet. It appears that the $$$$ does not all go to our college students and schools as they display in the TV ad....It also appears to fall into the control of current race track owners and is limited to only 2-3 counties at that....

Tell me what you all know.

[liberal N proud]

1. I fear this as the possible wedge issue for 2006 in Ohio

The issue that will get the Religious Right out to vote, and Oh, while you are out there voting against your kids college education, vote republican.
I have not heard any candidate speak about this issue one way or the other from one party or the other.
It is like a stealth issue.

[cmd]

2. That's my concern as well n/t

[rg302200]

3. I found this website...

I don't know if this truly answers everyones concerns so I will dig further!

http://www.ohiolearnandearn.org/Factbook/page22.html

[liberalnurse]

4. I think the lady who spoke on the local TV discussion

was from the ohio learn ect....what ever group to that link...... I'll go see if there is a link or notation on WHIO's web site about this.....

Here is the link folks......

http://www.whiotv.com/station/4671258/detail.html

snip>

this is all; just the announcement,

The show is focused on State Issue 3 which will appear on the November ballot. Ohio voters will decide on a plan to raise money for college scholarships by expanding gambling in the state. Under the plan, slot machines will be allowed at horse racing tracks in the state.

Guests on the show included State Rep. Bill Seitz from Cincinnati who is with the Ohio Learn and Earn group, which supports expanding gambling. Melanie Elsey, of Ohio Roundtable, appeared on the show and is with Ohio Roundtable which is a group opposed to expanding gambling

[femrap]

5. I don't think we can compete with Las Vegas....

do you? And wasn't the Lottery sold to us to save the Public Schools which are now in a HUGE mess?

I would rather see Ohio create jobs that work toward new energy sources or organic farming instead of gambling.

My life seems to already be one big gamble....I don't need anymore.

[slaveplanet]

17. Yep, and these new ad's have already been busted

for exagerated claims. And had to change the ad's.

Vote against this trash. These people are not to be played footsie with.

They want to use this for economic developement instead of bringing in moral businesses like they should be.

The old "But, It's for the children" excuse, is just that...an excuse

[Schmajo]

6. Both Strickland & Blackwell oppose Issue 3

I've read through the proposed Constitutional amendment. Going from memory, these are the salient points:

Issue 3 authorizes a total of (I think) 35,000 slot machines to be located at the existing horse racing tracks, plus two specific locations in downtown Cleveland (West Flats and on the east shore near Tower City). A recent state study says Ohio can only support about 10,000 slots. There's seems to be agreement that the proponents' estimates of dollars generated are (at best) a best-case scenario.

Slots only, no table games, roulette, craps, etc.

Gross profit (amount wagered after winnings) is divided up, based on specific percentages in the amendment. The bulk (I think about 35%) goes to the Board of Regents for awarding as scholarships to Ohio students. The provision is very detailed and tries to insure that this scholarship money will not be used to allow the General Assembly to decrease aid to higher education.

Smaller percentages (much smaller) are earmarked for local governments where the slots are located, to the state local government fund, and to gambling addiction services.

The remaining money belongs to the casino/track owners. This revenue will be exempt from all other state taxes, such as the new Commercial Activity Tax. (The owners will still have to pay income tax.)

It seems that even people who are in favor of some kind of Ohio casinos don't like Issue 3 because it gives such huge profits to a small number of people, and because it embeds this "right" in the state constitution.

[liberalnurse]

7. Thank you so much for the clarity!

:hi: :applause:

I'm going to vote "NO".

[AngryOldDem]

8. My gut feel is that it's shady. Not voting for it.

Given how the gambling issue (casinos and whatnot) seems to have divided this state, I see #3 as kind of "gilding the lilly" in order to make gambling more palatable.

I don't believe for one second that the money will totally go to education. We were told that with the Ohio Lottery, and I don't think people will be fooled by that again. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Maeve]

14. The selling of it hasn't been totally honest

I was approached several times to sign the petition to put it on the ballot and it was always "for the kids" (hey, I've got 4, two in high school and AP students at that). But we need a better system to fund education than another sucker tax. (I think gambling should be legal and regulated, BTW) Nor do I beleive it will generate the kind of money for the state the ads are touting.

[adeshell]

9. Gambling should be legal anyway

I don't see what the big deal is about gambling. I am a Christian, but also a libertarian on some things. If Christians believe it is wrong to gamble, then don't gamble. You won't catch me any time soon playing the slots. But what other people do is their own business. An added bonus to this for me could be that my daughter gets to go to college from the proceeds.

By the way, I also will vote against the 'Smoke Free' propositiom. I'm not a smoker, but its up to individual businesses to decide if they allow smoking or not, not the governments....

[liberalnurse]

12. I don't like the slots either.....

To be honest, I can't tolerate all the noise......very unpleasant.

[Kolesar]

13. When I lived in Indiana, pin-ball machines were banned...

...because of some "association" with gambling. Classmates of mine in grade school were prohibited from playing cards because the symbols on them were "of the devil". The message was clear:

"Go Fish"--if you want to--in a lake of Hell-fire for eternity!

Since Voinovich (who has not accounted for himself well on the real moral issues of greed, lying, and warmongering) is fighting against gambling in Ohio as a "moral issue", I am going to vote for it.

(note:some of the material on this thread was borrowed from Steven Colbert)

[AngryOldDem]

15. Agreed on the smoking issue

I heard -- and this may be urban legend -- that the ultimate goal is to ban it in cars and homes. Gads -- when will it stop? (I am a non-smoker too, by the way.)

[Connie_Corleone]

10. I'm against it because Cincinnati was purposefully left out of

the gambling because Argosy Casino(in Indiana) did not want the competition down here.

As far as the learn & earn, from what I heard, it's for students who take AP classes in high school. Most students don't take AP classes. Not every student can take those classes. It can be difficult to keep up with the extra work and study in those classes.

[WCGreen]

11. It's a bad idea that actually creates special zone that are

Casino Legal...

Coincidently, many of the safe zones are so defined as to only be applicable to the financial backers of the Casino Legal Zones...

What they did differently this time is include the Race Tracks who were strongly opposed to Casino Gambling in Ohio...

Now if they would let the Catholic Church have Slots in their Bingo Halls, we would see this pass with an overwhelming majority...

[slaveplanet]

18. Yep, The hidden agenda

here is that of Wolstien development. They desperately need this
to complete his,flats east bank, land grab for him, so he can finish robbing the other land owners by eminent domain. That is why the Cinci provision was left out, Cleveland is really the target.

They had a whole dog and pony tent show in the flats all last summer, where they brought poker to the flats parking lots in attempts to grease the skids and lure a bunch of idiots down there to sign the petitions. Last I heard there was less than stellar results.

Seems they found a bunch more idiots to sign and make it on the ballot.

But If I were A betting man, I put my money down that those signatures
were received fraudulently.


Wolstien is a totally corrupt organization IMO, They completely let the property disintegrate and repeatedly ignored the Flats/Oxbow association's meetings and requests to remedy the situation.
They are the Architects of the Flat's demise.

They roll out this lofty plan to magically reshape the area that they destroyed, They come under false pretense saying it will be quaint little shops and movie theaters, with apartments above. Of course they plan on doing it with much of the public's dime, which will discount anything the schools get for the best part of 2 decades. So they laid it on the table that way to get the lemming public on board.

But...If you examine the plans, any idiot with a 3rd grade education could see the whole thing is laid out in such a way, that as soon as gambling is legalized, It's a simple matter of blowing out the street level walls and Voila!, instant mega hotel casino complex ready for stinking up the whole flats like a big blob of shit.

[johnnie]

19. The Flats needs something

35 rave clubs just didn't do it. What would you propose to bring the Flats back or even worth looking at? What should be down there in your opinion?

[slaveplanet]

20. Of course it needs something

A decade and a half of engineered blight and anyone would come to that conclusion. In order to fix things you have to first look at the cause, go talk to any club owner down there and you'll find that all signs point to Wolstien and his government toadies as a big part of the cause. Everyone wants a rose down there, Only the public is too foolish and apathetic to know that you aren't going to get a rose from a pile of shit if you don't use the right seed.
The owners know they lack juice and are done for, the only question left is how much are they going to get ripped off for. An interesting wildcard is... Exactly what is Larry Flynt up to, inserting himself into all this mess? He's clearly gunning for a constitutional fight.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/15205404.htm

As for what I want, I don't know, ... but it would never happen because it's too much of a police state mentality on the lake. I'd like to see the boats down there again with more of a resort/lake refuge type feel that it used to have. I'd like to see small town storefronts and clean watering holes with a super-wide all access boardwalk/wharf/docks. I suppose a Casino might achieve that, but it's disgusting that the engineer is set to reap the biggest reward when they should be in line for the biggest punishment. And the kicker is they will get public funds...It's repulsive. I hope Flynt will at least bloody a nose before this is all done.

Just wait and see, they're going to hang with the bad seed, don't be surprised to smell an acrid flower from all this.

[Kolesar]

22. If the gambling vote is about leveraging $Millions for Wolstein, I object

The Wolstein East-Bank-of-the-Flats project depends upon millions of pubic money (in the bad tradition of Cleveland's three sports facilities and Cincinnati's two sports facilities).

I wanted gambling in Ohio because I did not like that gamblers had to motor to Mountaineer, WV or the Motor City to lose their money. Might as well keep it in Ohio.

I note that Lorain, Ohio had been hoping for a casino as a downtown highlight, but the city is left out of this plan.

[geiger]

24. and after a year Cuyahoga County can have up to eight

[BillORightsMan]

25. two points...

BA sez: Might as well keep it (gambling $$$) in Ohio.

That's the real rub: most of the profits will go to the casino/race track owners, who conveniently live OUT OF STATE. And, as Schmajo pointed out, "The remaining money belongs to the casino/track owners. This revenue will be exempt from all other state taxes, such as the new Commercial Activity Tax." Therein lies the fallacy: the gambling money will stay "in state".

After the construction jobs are gone, most of the jobs that will be left will be min. wage ones. But, like they say, Vegas wasn't built on Winners money. I liken this bill to the Lottery, that was originally supposed to help secondary schools, but we all see where that has gotten us.

See Slots to think about in the Free Times.

IN RE: The Flats - It looks like Wolstein is going to try goad the city into using the SCOTUS-approved Emminent Domain to gobble up the Flats/Oxbow association's parcels. I wholly agree with WCGreen: "Just another case of socializing the costs and privatizing the benifits (sic)." Heck, Jacobs Field and the Gund Arena were built on the so-called "sin tax" on alcohol & tobacco, but you cannot smoke in these venues! Now, the new owner of the Cavs is floating the idea of using public funds to "remodel" the Q - like he doesn't get enough $$$$$ from his bizness, Quicken Loans and $100+ tix for Cavs games.

The worst part is that it is a Constitutional Amendment, like Issue 4 "Smoke Less", which means that voters would have to repeal the Amendment to remove it. I find it odd that there is so much furor over smoking and its health causes, when we have coal-fired electric generation plants that spew so much more toxins into our air and other heavy industries that spoil the environment (land, air, water) and there seems to be no outrage over the health issues these cause for EVERYBODY.

I'm voing "NO" on issues 3, 4 & 5.
:patriot:

[Kolesar]

26. A bad deal is worse than no deal

thanks for illuminating this.

[WCGreen]

21. Cleveland is not dependent on the Flats for Survival....

I mean come on, the glory days of the flats have long since passed...

They should try to reinvigorate the area with mixed development, but not on my dime any more...

If they can erect the largest bath house in the country without a dime of public money, how come the developers can't put together a plan that doesn't require subsidization from the public at large...

Just another case of socializing the costs and privatizing the benifits...

[johnnie]

23. It's not dependent upon it, but it is still part of the city

I do miss those "glory days". I remember being down there in the early to mid 80's when it was mostly a live music scene and carrying our equipment up and down the streets past other musicians doing the same..lol.

If I had my way it would become a live music scene again, but Cleveland hasn't had one of those in a few decades. The "boater scene" was OK, but then everyone and their brother got a boat and there were just not enough docking available.

I haven't really been down there in a while so I have no idea how it is these days, but from what I read and am told, it's not really a place to be.

Well, I just think we need to bring in slots to the State and I feel that if we don't do it this time we will have blown it for a long time.

The city of Cleveland has a long way to go to become anything even remotely representative of a "big city". No one wants to come here to visit, corporations don't want to blow money to build here or start any businesses, we have hardly any entertainment industry and in a nutshell, Cleveland has nothing at all to offer.

While the suburbs surrounding Cleveland are growing and prospering, Cleveland proper is becoming a wasteland and we either need to shit or get off the pot. I couldn't believe when I went into the downtown a few months ago, it was like walking through Tombstone. I kept looking for tumbleweeds, but all I saw were vacant buildings and about 5 people trying to catch a bus out of there.

After decades of stagnation, this city needs a "quick fix". We have a great lake front and acres of river front that needs developing, and fast. The Rock Hall is not enough to make us a great place to be.

[WCGreen]

27. Johnnie, they need to work on developing a neighborhood

in the Flats...

The entertainment district is just not gonna work down there...

If it didn't happen after all they pumped into the area in the 80's...

What makes you think it will work now with places like Crocker Park sucking what ever life was left out of downtown...

It has to grow on it's own in order for it to be sustained...

[geiger]

28. exactly

[johnnie]

29. I just don't see a neighborhood working down there

Maybe I have the wrong idea of what you are talking about, but until they offer something in the city of Cleveland that is appealing enough for people to want to live there, it will just be thought of as what it is now.

Look at how long they have been trying to revitalize the Tremont area. Yeah, you can get a $100 a plate dinner at a fancy restaurant, but you still are looking out the window at a pretty run down neighborhood. They tried to do it to Ohio City also.

The entertainment district did great for a while down in the Flats. I think they just didn't diversify it enough to keep it going. Everyone tried to capitalize on the same things instead of having someone being able to control a little more of what they had to offer down there. Of course it went to shit, you can only have so many raves before people lose interest.

I think some housing, theaters, clubs, casinos, markets and so on would be a wonderful thing to happen to the Flats. But I think it needs direction and not a free-for-all. That's what killed it all the other times.

[Kolesar]

30. The Wolstein plan and the mayor's plan calls for housing there

...among other uses. (Mayor Campbell, btw)

I would call Tremont a success. There are some low-value properties there, but they have managed to bring value and marketability back to an old neighborhood.

[WCGreen]

31. I have absolutely no problem with development in the Flats...

As long as it is done through private means...

[WCGreen]

32. Well, if the people behind this deal can show

can show us some marketing surveys done that will substantiate what they are proposing...

Remember, I was on the inside for a while in the 90's...

They always had ideas that were long on vision and short on reality...

And these are the same people who concocted the Gateway and Stadium projects which are both producing no revenue for the city to speak of...

As well as the development of homes over by The Clinic which are also producing no revenue for the city...

It's all bull shit...

[johnnie]

16. I'm voting yes

I just think we need to get this stuff in the State. They say only 40% will be going toward tuition, well that is 40% more than we have right now. Money can be made in slots and it just doesn't seem smart to have all the states around Ohio cashing in on Ohio's inability to get with the times.

[slaveplanet]

33. kick

[Kukesa]

34. Endorsed by the Montgomery Co. Dem party as well as:

Ohio AFL-CIO
United Steelworkers of Ohio (USW)
American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees (AFCME)
Ohio Civil Service Employees Association (OCSEA)