Why vote down issue #3?

[johnnie]

I think we need to introduce slots in the state soon, and this could be one of our last chances for a while. What's the problem?

[geiger]

1. It does not speak to the larger issue of economic development needs

and it does not solve that problem either.

It's a bandaid as far as school funding, and pathetic at that.

It doesn't bring livable wages into the picture. A lot of like to argue against Walmart coming to town, but Walmart actually offers its employees affordable health care.

It's symbolic of swirling deeper into the abyss of economic and social failure.

[johnnie]

2. I don't think that is a reason to vote it down though

Of course is isn't a "cure-all", but nothing is. Cleveland is a ghost town, it would benefit from this in my opinion. Almost all the other places the slots will go are already gambling establishments.

I just wonder what anyone thinks will be wrong about this? I've read the arguments against it on some places online, but they tend to be of religious and moral natures and not really anything that made legitimate sense to me.

[cmd]

3. The constitutional amendment is too limiting

That's my only problem with it. I don't believe amendments should specifically name places that may have slots. It should have been written with more inclusive language. I have no problem with slots. I don't like playing them myself, but hate to see Ohio money going across the borders. I'll vote for it, but don't expect it to pass.

[OhioBlue]

4. I'm voting for it too.

I share your concerns with the constitutional amendment but am voting to send a message that I want legalized gambling. My dad and step mom are thoroughbred owners. Not the wealthy kind... My sister and her significant other also are in the horse racing industry.

My dad told me the Horseman's' association is in favor of it and if something isn't done, the horse racing industry in Ohio will be non-existent. They and many people they know already travel to Mountaineer on a regular basis to race there. The purses are better, the facilities are better and the crowd is bigger. Also, Mountaineer gets a lot of Ohio tourism dollars.

[Kukesa]

6. Me too, Ohio Blue. nt

[WCGreen]

29. It creates a monopoly for the monied interests behind it..

Talk about buying your way into business...

How unamerican is that....

[Ohio Learn and Earn]

9. Vote YES on Issue 3

Johnnie is right. Obviously, Issue 3 isn't going to solve every problem in the state, but it will be a very significant step in the right direction. We at the Ohio Earn and Learn campaign believe that by voting YES for Issue 3, you're voting to create jobs, bolster state and local economies, encourage local development, keep over a billion dollars in the state, and significantly improve the educational outlook for Ohio's children. Invest in Ohio's economy, children, and future by voting YES on Issue 3 in November.

[adeshell]

5. I agree with

In addition that gambling should be legal anyway, from what I've read, my daughter will have the chance to go to college without finance being an overwhelming issue

[geiger]

7. Unfortunately it's a shell game

[west5548]

8. Not sure how I'll vote

I don't know how I'll vote on this, one hand we need to stop having people spend their money in every state around us now with casinos, but on the other hand not sure how much it will help the schools. I'll probably vote yes, but not 100% sure.

[GOTV]

61. Why would they allow it to help schools?

As long as the schools are terrible they can use them as an enticement to get you to agree to turn over more public wealth to them. The lottery came and the schools are terrible.

This will come and college will still be unattainable for most.

They keep buying concessions from you with the same dollar.

[MGD]

10. Why do we need slots and why do we need them soon?

I'm generally opposed to enriching those who make a buck off of other people's misfortune. I'll be voting no on issue 3.

[johnnie]

11. What about the tuition for college?

Slots are available to all Ohioans within a relatively short drive as it is. Why not keep some of that money in our state? I take it you think that a person's choice to gamble is a misfortune? Or are you referring to people who are addicted to gambling? If that's the case, do you not go to bars or restaurants that serve alcohol?

[MGD]

12. What about it?

Is this really the best answer we can come up with to help finance higher education? How sad is that?

I would like to see the projections of how much revenue this will actually generate for the state before I support it. I have read that not a single dime will end up in the state treasury. That means we're voting to make rich people richer IMO with the added detriment of making poor people poorer in the process. I am still leaning towards no but I agree that Ohio definitely needs something. I'm just not convinced that this particular something is it. I'm going to research it some more.

[johnnie]

13. What would be a better way?

In my opinion, this will just bring more people to the places that already have gambling for the most part. Those places will have more business and will make more money, which results in more state taxes. Also there will be more state taxes paid by the winners of any substantial money.

The only other way we could get more money for higher education is higher taxes. Any other way results in the rich getting richer imo.

[AngryOldDem]

27. You should ask the General Assembly

They need to revamp the way schools are funded at all levels. Period. It's an issue they've been dancing around for years, especially with the public school system. It is absolutely ludicrous, for instance, that property taxes should be the sole funding for public schools. And we wonder why our inner city schools are constantly on academic emergency, watch, or probation while suburban schools flourish. Likewise with our universities. Why does their tuition constantly outpace the rate of inflation? Honest, substantive debate on the funding of education is needed in this state, not slot machines.

I heard the same load of blarney when the Ohio Lottery was introduced back in the 1970s. Funding education was a big selling point with a lot of people back then. But we all know how well that turned out, and even the Lottery itself doesn't make that claim anymore.

Ohioans have historically been wary of expanding/supporting the gaming industry, and with good reason. It will just open the door to corruption, mismanagement, and boondoggle. I also find it one of the more cynical ploys I have seen in awhile -- trying to make an end run around people's reservations about gambling by cloaking it in an issue that most of us care deeply about. I think I'd have more respect for the campaign if its supporters just came out and said, "We just don't want to drive to French Lick to get our slot fix anymore."

Sorry, but I'm voting a big HELL NO on this.

[shirlden]

30. I am also

voting a big Hell No on this one. Not opposed to gambling, just this particular amendment. I read a very good analysis of this and now forget where it was, but the gist was the numbers in no way add up. Just like the lottery promises this one is full of boondoggle. Just a get rich for the got rich.

:thumbsdown:

[jakefrep]

33. This is not an unreasonable question.

Issue 3 is certainly flawed, but its opponents (especially the elected officials) have failed to provide any sort of alternatives.

[Kolesar]

34. See posts 22 and 25 in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=172&topic_id=19814&mesg_id=20480

[jakefrep]

35. So?

Neither of those posts answers the question. Where are the better ideas?

[Kolesar]

36. How about an honest disclosure of who is behind #3 as "the alternative"

...that you claim to desire?

You are trying to morph the gambling issue into a question of whether we support Ohio higher education. Well, your message is not working with the cognoscenti of the DU Ohio forum.

[jakefrep]

37. I'm well aware of who's behind Issue 3....

...and what may transpire if it passes. Based on what I do know about the issue, I am willing to vote for it.

My point is that the failure of Issue 3's opponents (principally the elected officials) to conceive any sort of solution created an environment in which something such as Issue 3 can flourish. If Issue 3 fails, it's time to turn up the pressure on our elected leaders to come up with something better. And I beleieve that it is perfectly reasonable to ask politicians opposed to Issue 3 what they would do.

[AngryOldDem]

38. And the answer is not necessarily gambling

It's time to hold these people accountable, and make them come up with a fair and workable way to fund education. That is their job, after all.

[Ohio Learn and Earn]

14. People's misfortune?

MGD- I'm confused as to how this proposal will be taking advantage of anyone's misfortune? Do you mean those people who play the slots? Sorry, just trying to clarify. Thanks-

[Ohio Learn and Earn]

15. Gov. Taft subverting information on Issue 3

Have you heard this? Gov. Taft’s right wing bully boys are preventing the release of the Regents’ professional staff analysis that shows Issue 3 is a likely solution for Ohio’s higher education crisis. In fact, the professional educators at the Board of Regents found the financial claims of Issue 3 proponents to be true. The Taft appointees on the Board of Regents voted to stay out of the fight. Now, apparently, Taft is strong arming those very same appointees to ignore his professional educators to pretend this favorable report never happened. The Board might even come out swinging at Issue 3 despite professional staff taking the opposite position. Another example of a failed lame duck governor going to an embarrassing exit. Show Taft that you won’t be bullied – read the report here: http://www.ohiolearnandearn.com/Draft_Analysis.pdf

[jakefrep]

16. I am voting FOR Issue 3

Voting out of self-interest, certainly, since my family owns racehorses.

[ckimmy57]

17. I agree

I know lots of people that already travel to West Virginia on the week-ends to go to the tracks and play the slot machines. I'm tired of hearing that if we legalize gambling we are promoting the destruction of family values because parents will be gambling away their paychecks. If someone wants to gamble bad enough they will go where it is available. We play bingo here, we have the lottery, people have all types of card games at country clubs and these are FORMS OF GAMBLING. I say get over it. It's time Ohio got a little taste. I voted already and voted YES for issue.:thumbsup:

[rg302200]

18. Hi Ckimmy welcome to DU...

and very good points by the way!

[ckimmy57]

23. Thanks

:kick: You've got me hooked on this site.

[Kukesa]

20. Welcome to DU and the Ohio Forum! nt

[LittleWoman]

19. The best reason to vote no on issue 3

is that it is an ammendment to the state constitution to provide a monopoly for a few racetrack owners to control gambling in Ohio. They are using the provision of money for college/trade schools as a trojan horse. The issue is not really about gambling, it is about who will profit from it. In this case it is a few race track owners and once things go bad, and in Ohio I guarantee they will, we will have to pass another ammendment to the state constitution to fix the damage. These snake oil salesmen are promising big bucks, ie a free lunch, but in fact it is these few race track owners who are going to reap the benefits.

VOTE NO ON ISSUE 3!

[jakefrep]

21. Just how, exactly, do opponents of Issue 3....

...plan to make college more affordable? Maybe slot machines aren't the perfect solution, but issue 3's opponents haven't offered anything other than their usual empty rhetoric about "social costs of gambling" and "moral values."

[Kolesar]

22. Opponents of Issue 3 have raised fair points beyond the "moral" issues

It is a frightfully convoluted ballot measure that hides a lot of ugly political process below it. Further, one does not have to come up with a college funding plan to oppose Issue 3.

[LittleWoman]

25. Isssue 3 is not about funding for college

You can find a pdf of Issue 3 ( and all the other issues on the ballot) at the Franklin County Board of Elections web page <http://www.co.franklin.oh.us/boe/content/election/issues-gen-2006.html>

The whole thing is very long and complicated, but the one thing that stands out to me is that it provides for up to 31,000 slot machines at 7 race tracks and 2 other locations in the Cleveland area. No matter what you think about gambling, this does not belong in the state constitution. It is a total giveaway to the owners of the 9 sites involved and even if it provides for some college money I can guarantee that somewhere in the convoluted language there is a way for the track owners to game the system. Furthermore, the dollar amounts they are projecting for college assistance are really pie in the sky. I cannot see how anyone who has lived in Ohio and paid attention can possibly see that passing this issue is a good thing except for the owners of the 9 projected gambling sites.

I know only too well how difficult it is to fund a college education these days, but this is not the answer. I think this promise of college money is a cruel hoax and if it passes it will get in the way of real efforts to make college/trade school affordable for all.

[OhioBlue]

28. not just the race track owners

also the race horse owners, the trainers, the jockeys, the grooms, the waitstaff at the restaurants at the tracks, surrounding area retail businesses, restaurants, hotels, and the sales tax, will benefit County Governments and the State Government.....

[doc03]

24. Myself I don't think the state should be involved in

ruining peoples lives. I live 8 miles from Wheeling Downs in WV, many of the people I see patronizing the track could use the money feeding their family. The payday loan places are illegal in WV, you should see the people coming over to Ohio to borrow money because they lost their paychecks to the state of WV. A friend of mine and his wife started going there a couple years ago and they have lost everything they own because of their addiction to gambling. They went to Niagara Falls a couple times before they had the machines in WV but once the machines were available locally they became addicted. The race tracks never get enough, they made threats about closing the dog track if they didn't get the machines. Now they are pushing to get table gambling or they will go out of business, whenever WV votes on the table gaming they put on this dog and pony show and lay people off to try and scare people. The lotto was supposed to help our schools yet all our school districts are always broke.

[gemdem]

26. I'm voting against Issue #3

Because it doesn't solve the problem of affordable college education in Ohio. It makes it look like we're doing something, but it accomplishes nothing except to enrich a particular lobby. The monies generated will do nothing to slow the rate of increase, and in the long run college will be no more affordable down the road than it is today.

I'd rather see the state do something meaningful to bring education costs for Ohio's public universities in line. The rate of increases is beyond ridiculous. The CollegeAdvantage program is a train wreck. Ohio colleges are among the least affordable in the country for resident students. Add job losses to the costs of a college education in this state, and what real expectation is there for things to get better for this state? Folks who get an education here (presuming they can afford it) leave as soon as they can because the jobs aren't here.

Issue #3 solves NONE of the core issues, and I expect the state will mismanage whatever monies come from it as badly as they have the lottery funds, CollegeAdvantage, etc. It's all but guaranteed, the state will screw it up -- or at minimum will be screwed by those narrow interests who are pushing the issue.

[doc03]

31. Here is the best reason yet I see for voting down Issue #3

The dishonesty! I got an advertisement in the mail Friday, it's this nice colorful thing with pictures of children on it and all the good things that will come from Issue#3. There is not one word about machines or gambling of any kind not even the name of the sponsor has anything to even remotely hinting of it. This is being pushed by a few rich track owners and the gaming machine industry and they are using the kids to push it through. What about the kids of the people that feed their paycheck to the machines and don't buy food and cloths for the kids. I have seen all this play out in WV the last few years. Bally and the track owners push for machines then they start trying to get table gaming because PA made machines legal and that's cutting into their take. This has been going on in WV for years, just before every election the tracks lay a few hundred people off claiming they need table games or they will go broke. Well it still hasn't passed in WV and the CEO at the track makes $1.5 mil a year. The slots are just a tax on the poor and what is left of the middle class, you don't see any rich people stuffing the machines with quarters!

[slaveplanet]

32. Top 10 reasons to vote for Issue 3

From Ed Morrison

10. Beat out Detroit in the race to the bottom.
9. Teach the Columbus business leadership a lesson in collaboration.
8. Concentrate our cocaine traffic, strip clubs and prostitution in one place.
7. Reverse the welfare juggernaut: Have poor inner city families pay the the college tuition bills for rich suburban families.
6. Contribute 8 cents on the dollar to education (or maybe it’s 6).
5. Prove to the wimps once and for all that, in politics, money trumps the truth.
4. Finally build our Forest City Convention Center.
3. Demonstrate the power of free enterprise by getting our Cleveland casinos written into the Ohio Constitution.
2. Show editorial writers in Dayton, Columbus, Toledo, Lorain, Warren, Akron, Cincinnati and Youngstown that they’re completely out to lunch.
1. Prove to Northeast Ohio leaders what regionalism is all about, whether they like it or not.

---------

more Ed via BFD
http://www.brewedfreshdaily.com/2006/10/28/ed-morrisons-top-ten-reasons-to-vote-for-issue-3/#comments

I spent nearly ten years in the casino economy of Louisiana. I worked for casino developers, I worked for communities with casinos. I have seen up close the devastation of these businesses. I understand — in ways that few people in Cleveland understand — how these developments will cripple Cleveland’s inner city. I have been to the clinics where pathological gamblers convene. I have seen the stories.

The casino developers are completely dishonest when it comes to these costs. Their willingness to move ahead with this campaign, in my view, raises serious ethical and moral questions.

They will also further corrupt our politics. (Haven’t they already?) The culture of corruption that these developments engender further depress economic development.

My point is simple: Our leadership is so misguided that it has become a farce.

We need new leadership, and that leadership is already starting to emerge.

Henry Mitzberg, the noted strategy theorist, points to “community-ship” as the evolving model for organizations. In a networked world — especially in the “civic space” where real economic development happens — the old conventions simply do not apply. Read more about Mintzberg’s point here.

Unfortunately for us, the highly paid staffs at the GCP, NorTech, and TeamNEO are ten to fifteen years behind the leading regions. (Of the three, NorTech is the most up-to-date, but it is still largely a funds broker and little else. Leading regions evolved from this model years ago.)

The foundations are not much better. Voices and Choices is such an ill-defined, extravagent process that it will not yield much beyond vague policy prescriptions. (Even though, I am told, the foundations are busy trying to come up with some practical outcomes. Read the preliminary report here. They’d better do something. Coming up with a recommendation like “Improve workforce training programs and ensure they match the needs of both workers and employers” is, frankly, laughable.)

The cost of this process is also exorbitant. $3 million to engage 20,000 people represents a cost of $150 per participant. The town hall meetings cost, I would estimate, about $250,000 to $300,000 each or about $300 per participant.

In Indiana, I ran 10 regional forums this past spring with a budget of $60,000. We engaged 2,000 people at a cost of $30 per participant. (At REI, our Tuesday forums that led to a number of important collaborations cost us less than a dollar per participant, unless we threw in a fruit plate.)

Indiana leaders are not trying to figure out what to do with these forums. They are busy trying to figure out how to hold more of these forums on their own.

Civic leaders in each region are busy implementing. (You can read more by downloading the Indiana Leadership report and reading about the regions in the back of the report here.)

This coming week, I will be at a conference designing how we can use regional forums to integrate high school and economic development. Learn more.

At some point, enough people will come to an understanding: The “leaders” running this show in Cleveland do not really know what they are doing.

With the possible exception of BioEnterprise and JumpStart, most of these big investments have, in my judgement, very little probability of payoff. The design flaws are serious and difficult to overcome. (Team NEO is the most vulnerable to collapse.)

Even worse, Issue 3 heads us in completely the wrong direction with a campaign that is deceitful, at best, corrupt at worst. (I can only imagine the bag money being passed out this week.)

We are in a soup, and our current cast of characters at the GCP and the Fund for the Future are still fumbling around, unable to admit that they are lost.

As Governor Daniels in Indiana has told audiences many times: “Progress begins when denial ends.”

Comment by Ed Morrison — October 29, 2006 @ 12:15 pm

[AngryOldDem]

39. The cynicism gets worse

Has anyone noticed the change in ad tactics by the proponents of Issue 3?

The latest commercial I've seen features a glowing endorsement by George Voinovich and then goes on to say just how wonderful it will be for Ohio's kids. No mention of gambling. No mention of how Issue 3 plans to get its revenue -- i.e., through gambling. Indeed, no mention at all of any specifics as to how this will work, exactly. Just hearts-and-flowers graphics and a lot of cute, wholesome kids who are deserving of a college education. But still -- shouldn't the ad be more upfront about how these kids will get the cash to go to school? Isn't that being just a bit disingenuous?

I like the ad that shows the tour buses headed out of state a lot better. At least it is more honest about the real motive behind this initiative.

I can see it now. Issue 3 will pass in a landslide because all people will hear is -- FREE MONEY FOR SCHOOL! In 10 years, this will be a big mess, no money will be available for school, scandal and mismanagement will be all over the place, special interests will own God knows how many legislators, and the voters will once again scratch their heads and wonder what happened. Meanwhile, you will need to be Donald Trump to put your kid through OSU.

[doc03]

40. If Issue #3 passes the very next day they will start

working for table gaming. That is what happened in WV, they have been trying for years to get table gaming passed. The latest scare tactic is PA has machines now and if WV doesn't get table gaming all the people from PA will stay home and we will lose jobs locally. This all started with the lotto PA gets it then Ohio had to have it and then WV and on and on. Once all the states got the Lotto they started with the slots and now that has snow-balled. Now we all have to have table gaming to compete with the other neighboring states. What is next? Prostitution? Drugs? I was all for the Lotto in Ohio, that was supposed to do all this great stuff for the schools. Where did all that money go?

[LittleWoman]

41. This ad is a total lie!

It implies that Voinovich is for this amendment, but in fact he is against it. ( see his letter in the Columbus Dispatch <http://www.dispatch.com/editorials-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/10/28/20061028-A9-04.html>)

If you read issue 3 and I admit it is a chore, you will see that it provides for 31,500 slot machines at 7 race tracks and 2 other sites in the Cleveland area. It provides a monoploy for the owners of these venues and it does this by an ammendment to the state constitution. This means that if any change is needed it will also have to be by an amendment to the constitution. Would any of you vote for any other small group to acquire a monopoly by amending the state constitution? Why should this be done for the owners of these race tracks? Even if you think the slots are a good idea this is not the way to go. If you think all the promised riches will go to scholarships for higher education for your children you need a serious reality check.

[AngryOldDem]

42. FINALLY saw an opposition ad....

...and may it get ample airtime from now until next Tuesday.

Most of the money earned from gaming will go first to those who are fronting it. 55%, if memory serves. Gee, what a surprise! :sarcasm:

Only 5% of kids will directly get scholarships from this initiative. Another big surprise! :sarcasm:

The rest may have to wait 15 or more years until they see any money from this. Not so big a surprise, although I'm sure it will be to those families who are counting on this to fund college.

Folks, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. The "quick fix" often results in more problems.

I knew there had to be some shadiness around Voinovich's "endorsement." If I were him, I'd demand that the ad be taken down, or edited to take out the "endorsement."

[Ohio Learn and Earn]

43. The exact numbers

The facts are that for the first 12 years of the program, from 2009 to 2020, the top 5 percent of each class will receive tuition grants, starting with each school’s top academic students and moving down the ranking should those students opt out for non-Ohio schools, accept scholarships, or decide to defer college for a time. In addition, the remaining class members from 2009 to 2020 will receive partial tuition, based on credits earned for passing core curriculum requirements. As each graduating class gets closer to the year 2021, the percentage of tuition monies rises for the students not in the 5%. For example, in 2009 a graduating student would be eligible for 1/12 of tuition if not in the top 5%, whereas a graduate of 2015 would be eligible for 7/12 of tuition if not in the top 5%. By 2021, all graduates will be eligible for full tuition. Yes, the program takes time to reach full fruition, and, no, it is not intended to solve all of Ohio's education problems, but it does provide our students with financial benefits and educational opportunities that would otherwise not exist.

[gemdem]

44. Top 5% for the next 12 years,

And not until 2021 until all graduates are eligible. By that time, my youngest (now 5) will be out of school. The whole issue is a scam, a fraud, a huge stinking canard. It's presented to the public that the funds will be available immediately -- that the monies are there for all Ohio students. Look at the damned ads and square them against what you've written. It's all a damned dirty lie, which goes back to the point I've made in several posts -- this issue solves nothing except to enrich a set of very narrow interests.

Way to go Ohio! :sarcasm:

[johnnie]

47. It's not a scam

A lot of people I know want gambling in Ohio, they aren't too concerned about the money for the college kids.

[gemdem]

49. Then they need to say it's about gambling

I have received materials for the issue that focus only on education. Not one word about slots. Hell's bells, they're using a mortarboard in the logo to promote the issue -- not a slot machine. So don't tell me that this isn't a scam.

I'd be more open to the issue if they were selling it as a gambling issue, but the fact is that they're not -- at least not in this corner of the state. The commercials here focus on education, not gambling. If I didn't read up on the issue, I'd have no idea that it was about gambling. And that's just it -- too many people will vote based on the commercials and have no idea what it is they're voting for.

If it's a gambling issue, then say to all that it's a gambling issue. If it's an education issue, then say it's an education issue. Combining the two and playing up one side to the near exclusion of the other is where the scam comes in.

And $20 more where there wasn't before means nothing if you're not addressing the core issues of jobs and affordable education in this state. Slot machines are a poor way to address either one.

[AngryOldDem]

45. Sound and fury, signifying nothing

This should be explained, in PLAIN, SIMPLE ENGLISH, in all TV ads and mailings. This is like the very fine print you see with get-rich-quick schemes. This is NOT the way this issue is being advertised. Again, it's disingenuous at best, deceitful at worst.

As you note, this will take YEARS to come to fruition, but those fronting the slots and the tracks stand to gain almost immediately. And sorry, I DO NOT TRUST that these monies will be handled nor accounted for responsibly.

If I were a backer of Issue 3, I don't know if I would want what you wrote in explanation to become common knowledge. This is NOT a selling point. Caveat emptor, indeed.

[johnnie]

46. I don't think so

"Issue 3 will pass in a landslide because all people will hear is -- FREE MONEY FOR SCHOOL!"

Everyone I know who is voting for it is because they want to go play slots and not drive for a few hours.

[johnnie]

48. I guess I understand now

A lot of people here are just pissed that some people will get rich with this passing. I don't know how to get gambling in Ohio with out making some rich people richer, but honestly, I don't give a shit if rich people get rich.

As for the money going to help people go to college, it's a good thing, but it is just an extra thing they added on. This isn't about sending kids to college, it is about bringing slots to Ohio.

There are better ways to get help for these kids to get help. But if 20 dollars a year goes toward the fund, that's 20 dollars more than we have now and if this doesn't pass, it will be a few more years before anyone comes up with anything.

I don't really want to be taxed higher for some kid's college funds, that is up to the parents of these kids who took on the responsibility having them. I don't mind helping, but it isn't up to me to make sure they go.

I like gambling once in a while, but I really don't like going to one of the states around me to do it.

[gemdem]

50. It's not about the rich getting richer

It's about being straight with people, and the way this issue has been promoted has been anything but straight forward or honest. It's been about wrapping what some consider distasteul in something more palatable -- gambling wrapped in education. In this corner of the state it's being pushed as an education issue. Maybe in Cleveland it's being pushed as a gambling/tourism issue.

My problem is that I don't like the two being coupled. If people want to gamble, fine. Then let's put gambling on the ballot and let it stand or fall on its own merits. Let's not disguise it as an education bill. Let's also not use gambling as a cure-all for what ails this state. We need good jobs and affordable quality education, and this issue will do little to help on either point.

[johnnie]

51. So you are saying it is a misleading political ad?

99% of the political ads I see are misleading. No, they are promoting it up here as an education issue, but what I am saying is that people I talk to about this are voting "yes" because they would like to see slots in Ohio.

"It's been about wrapping what some consider distasteul in something more palatable -- gambling wrapped in education."
I take it that you are implying that gambling is a sin or somehow immoral and shouldn't be tied in to education. I think that if the people who want to bring casino gambling to Ohio are willing to offer some revenue up for the privilege to do so and put it in an education fund, that is a good thing.

If Ohioans ever step into the 21st century and do allow gambling in our state, what would you choose to do with that 30% revenue? Or would you rather have state run casinos? Or would you rather take the education fund out of the equation and let the casino operators keep all the money?

[gemdem]

52. It's beyond misleading, and you miss my point

A lot of folks down here don't even know gambling is part of the equation. They think it's about education, and it's a hard sell that implies that state is going to pony up large sums of cash so all Ohio kids can go to college.

I don't consider gambling a sin -- I've played the lottery, enjoy poker and bingo, and have bet on horses here and there. My point is, if we're going to have gambling, then let it pass or fail on its own merits. For me, it's about whether people want it. If they do, great. If not, so be it.

Because other people have an issue with gambling is why I don't like the linkage with education. This state is dying and it isn't for want of gambling. I don't want funding for education to go down the chute because it's tied to gambling.

You can't get school levies passed because people in this state think that the lottery is supposed to pay for it all. I hear it every time a levy goes on the ballot.

If Ohioans "step into the 21st century" and allow gambling (as if gambling is a requirement for being part of the modern world), then the owner/operators need to be heavily taxed on all revenues they generate. Use those taxes to reduce tuition costs and increase grants -- rather than give people the mistaken impression that the state is setting aside dollars for all kids to go to college.

I'd rather see reduced tuition and increased grants so people are still incented to save for kids' educations. You need look no further than the impact of the lottery on levies to see that all a lot of folks won't save for kids' educations if they think the state is going to pay for it with slots, etc. That's my problem with the linkage. That's the problem with how this issue is being sold.

[johnnie]

53. Ok, I understand your viewpoint

As for people not knowing the whole issue, that is the same with every issue out there. For example, issue 18 here in Cuyahoga, it is being sold as a way to funnel money into the arts, but it is just another sin tax on tobacco and you don't hear that. It is up to the people who are going to vote to read into it.

The same for issues 4&5, the ads on TV touch on the basics of the issue and do not explain exactly what voting yes or no on the issue will do. There is a lot more to each of the issues than what the 30 second ad shows, but the people who make the ads are going to try to sell the issue on the points people will relate to. The same goes for issue 3. That's political advertising.


As for "step into the 21st century", my opinion is that we are one of the few states up this way that has yet to legalize slot gambling and it has been done so on the morality issue more than anything. We are still living in the puritan age in my opinion and we just keep going backward.

[Kukesa]

54. Your last paragraph is the reason I voted FOR Issue 3. nt

[AngryOldDem]

55. Then, be honest about it! That's all we're saying!

You keep proving over and over that Issue 3 is based on a lie. You prove that there is enough reservations about expanded gaming in this state that its chances of passing on its own merits would be slim to none if it didn't have the warm-and-fuzzy issue of education wrapped around it. In anyone's book, that's called deception.

And do NOT compare 4&5. Those ads have been upfront. Both sides have explained the smoking issue thoroughly. Issue 3 has been a deceptive campaign from DAY ONE, cynically playing Ohio voters as fools.

ON EDIT: To those who vote for Issue 3: Make sure that from here on out that you also vote in support of ALL social service levies that go on the ballot. We will need them as we march into "progress" with more legalized gambling. That's the least you all can do.

[johnnie]

56. Can you prove to me that there is fraud?

How do you know with 100% certainty that the education fund will see none of that money. I haven't heard that one yet.

And no need to come across as defensive about it all as you seem, I don't care what you vote for. I'm just saying that in all the threads on the Ohio forum concerning this issue, the people against it have not made a strong enough argument against it.

[AngryOldDem]

57. Again, you miss the point

It's the CAMPAIGN that is fraudulent. Saying that this issue is for the support of education when in fact it is for the expansion of gaming is lying. Pure and simple. Why can't you just put language on the ballot about the expansion of gaming, and leave education out of it? Could it be that you know that if you did, the chances of getting what you want are slim to none?

And I do get defensive when I see people being played -- especially forh their votes, and I get defensive when people can't see beyond their own selfishness to look at such an important issue from ALL sides.

[johnnie]

58. Wow.. talk about fraudulent

You edit out the part that I was commenting on when you out and out called it fraudulent and that the education will never see ANY of the money, and then reply to my post with something completely different.

I think that should say enough right there. Thanks for the "discussion"

[AngryOldDem]

59. Never said that

I did say, though, that the ballot language should drop the pretense that the money would go to education, and just say it was for the expansion of gambling.

To couch it as being for one thing when in fact it is not, is in my book fraudulent.

[Kolesar]

60. Well, why could not Lorain get the casino they wanted?

The mayor of Lorain has designed their urban plan around having a casino as a prime attraction. Presuming that casino gambling is acceptable to Ohioans, why could not his city get a casino through Issue 3?

My hunch is that Issue 3 is a set-up just to aid some particular people and to get some particular developments moving. I am referring to the Wolstein project on River Road on the east bank of the Flats in Cleveland that is going to need a few $ Million in public funding.

[johnnie]

62. Well, it's pretty obvious this issue will fail

I'm not a big time gambler, so it is no skin off my nose. My personal opinion is that Ohio and my neck of the woods (Cleveland) is not going to get better anytime fast.

I have lived here for 42 years and in my experience, Cleveland has gone down hill. A good example is to just look at the concerts we used to have here. Has anyone notice that Cleveland is left off of almost every major tour these days? A while back I was talking to my buddy who was driving for Green Day and asked them if they were coming here so i can get in for free..lol. He said that basically, Cleveland isn't really anywhere that the major acts want to hit because it isn't a player in the business anymore.


I may be wrong, but I remember Cleveland back in the late 70s and the 80s when the place was booming. They made films here, they had major rock concerts, they had big parties down by the lake, the St Paddy's parade was THE place to be, sports tickets were almost impossible to get, the flats rocked and there was always some good music going on down there and so many other things.

It's just my opinion form what I have seen, but those days are long gone. Ohio has had the shit beaten out of it for a long time and people are still expecting some kind of miracle to bring it up to the place it was and can be.

As I said, this issue doesn't really bother me a bit if it doesn't pass. I have no kids so I am not expecting my kids to be one of the top 5%, I don't really gamble and if I do, I can still go to one of the surrounding states and I think the people who people are afraid are going to get rich from this will continue to get rich either way.

I hope everyone's dreams of a magic wand comes true.

[AngryOldDem]

64. Now ,this made absolutely NO sense...

...based on what you've been posting and arguing about for days.

I know you're not responding to me because you think I was editing my post just to piss you off, or to lie. But screw it. I know I've been consistent in my arguments here, and anyone who has been following this debate can attest to that. I think you have some pretty good selective reading skills, though, and I think that's what came into play earlier. But I digress.

If I'm not on your Ignore list, please let me thank you for finally conceding that Issue 3 ain't all that it's cracked up to be. You are correct: It's not a "magic wand" for anything or anybody, unless you happen to be an investor in one of the casinos. That's what a handful of us have been yelling about for days. Yet, to quote you (or more accurately, paraphrase you), $20 more in the college fund from Issue 3 is $20 more than what the college fund would have had in the first place, so why not vote for it?

Now, you're saying: Who cares, Ohio's in the shitter anyway, I can go elsewhere to get my gambling fix, I don't have kids, so I don't care. What's up with that? :shrug:

[johnnie]

66. No, I asked on the OP why shoot it down?

I was and am going to vote for it, but i can see that many here aren't and I am pretty certain the repubs won't either so it isn't going to pass.

I haven't changed my vote, and I haven't changed my mind, but I am conceding to the fact that it won't pass. I still think 30 dollars is 30 dollars more than we have now and I can almost guarantee we won';t have a program to fund higher education come along for quite a few more years to come and eventually slots will be in Ohio and the education fund won't see anything from it.


I don't put people on my ignore list, I'm not that bothered by what people say on DU.

And as for "I think you have some pretty good selective reading skills, though, and I think that's what came into play earlier."..you wrote that this issue is based on fraud and that the education will see none of the money. Then you took that whole part out after I asked you to show me how you know with 100% certainty that there is fraud. You deleted it all and then tried to make me look like I was seeing things. I don't play those games.



As for being passive on the issue, it really *doesn't* matter to me if Ohioans pass this or not because Ohioans have a good record of screwing up anything that might come along and it gets frustrating not being able to do anything about it.

We have some great people in Ohio, but one thing we don't have are any great economists.

[AngryOldDem]

68. This issue IS based on fraud....fraudulent tactics

I have NEVER diverted from that point. The gambling aspect of this has not, and is not, part of the campaign in this part of the state. Gambling, except for ONE commercial that I have seen, has not been emphasized at all. This is bald-faced effort to play down a very crucial component of this issue that many people here have historically had an issue with: gaming.

Just today I got a big postcard in the mail from the Democratic Party, telling me to vote for Issue 3: "Yes on Issue 3: A guaranteed $850 million for college tuition assistance with every student eligible." You tell me: What is the REASONABLE inference from the above? There are two red flags in this blurb alone: "GUARANTEED" and "EVERY STUDENT ELIGIBLE." Moreover, there is nothing that says how this "guaranteed" money will be generated. But people strapped for cash for school won't see that; rather, they will see this as a panacea and will be bitterly disappointed when it turns out there's no "there" there.

Those have been my concerns about Issue 3 ALL week.

And as for your inference about the earlier post: As you were posting, I was editing. That was coincidence. I sometimes edit my posts after the fact, NOT after someone questions what I write, and I edit mostly so that my thoughts are more succinct, especially if I'm writing on the fly. And if memory serves, you asked the question about the funding to another poster here, not me, who responded with a sufficient answer.

You are right that things are pretty messed up in Ohio right now. That's what happens when a big problem like school funding gets bandied about in the legislature for years because nobody has the balls to address it. But I also think you're wrong -- Issue 3 will easily pass.


ON EDIT: In the interest of full disclosure, you did ask the question of fraud to me. However, my answer remains unchanged. My problems are with the way this issue is being presented to the public.

[Ohio Learn and Earn]

67. At least $850 Million for education

While I understand the point of the "every $20 counts" argument, the funds generated by the Ohio Learn and Earn program will be much more than token amounts. Parties involved in the Issue 3 debate have stated that the Learn and Earn program will generate at least $850 million which will be constitutionally mandated for educational scholarships. I'd encourage you to visit www.ohioearnandlearn.com and listen to what Judge Nathaniel Jones has to say about the Ohio Learn and Earn program, and vote YES on Issue 3 on Tuesday.

[AngryOldDem]

69. Can you address the points raised here? No one else seems to want to

...and if anyone can, I think you could. Thanks in advance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=172x20629

[Kolesar]

63. Akron Beacon Journal: Slot this for failure

last half:

The amendment does get very specific in spelling out where the money goes: 55 percent to the gambling industry, with another 6 percent dedicated to increasing the purse sizes at horse tracks. The two sites in downtown Cleveland are mapped in excruciating detail, so many feet this way and that along the Cuyahoga River, just the boundaries for the Nautica Entertainment Complex and Tower City.

The minute Issue 3 passes, voters will have given horse track owners and Cleveland developers a monopoly written into the state constitution. Other states have made a limited number of gambling licenses available subject to competitive bidding. In Pennsylvania, a $50 million licensing fee is assessed.

The amendment wobbles from its faulty construction. It promises to increase gambling (with its substantial social costs), siphon most of the money to a handful of track owners and developers who are already wealthy and then cough out 30 percent for college scholarships, 8 percent for economic development and 1 percent to treat gambling addiction, which is what the contraption triggered in the first place. Got it figured out? This isn't good for Ohio.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/editorial/15918551.htm

[AngryOldDem]

65. What more can you say?

This is just bad for the state, with a lot of the "badness" coming years down the road. But nobody sees that because of all the instant gratification and lofty promises that have been tacked on to this.

We need a eye doctor for all the nearsightedness here.

And I repeat: To all those who vote FOR this on Tuesday, remember all the health and human services levies in the years to come. We're going to need them. Thanks in advance.