PA proved that I am totally clueless

[MeDeMax]

even without the so called "cross over R voters" who switched affiliation to tamper with the D primary, Hillary won PA with a margin nearly identical to that in OH.

What can anyone do when blue-collar voters vote, against the candidate that helped organize workers displaced from jobs in the steel industry, while supporting a candidate that helped ship many manufacturing jobs out of the US due to heavy lobbying by the Ag industry ?

I don't recall who made a profound observation about "people voting against their own economic interests", there is much evidence to support it.

[geiger]

1. Maybe you're not the clueless one....

[MeDeMax]

2. you are most kind, but I just can't get a handle on this...

clearly people are frustrated with a host of things, we have seen an substantial erosion of consumer protections and the social safety net.

Whether it is high energy prices, or increasing bank/credit-card interest & fees, or high prescription drug prices, or high unemployment. Across the board, we are feeling the effects of congressional legislation that was influenced, or in some cases even written, by the lobbyists from those industries.

So what do the people of PA do, they choose the candidate that has taken THE MOST contributions from lobbyists this election cycle, go figure that one out.

She has even accepted huge contributions from the Healthcare & Health Insurance lobbyists that silenced her voice in the early 90s.

How do people think she will get us out of this mess when she owes the corporations that are profiting well from the mess we are in ?

I am blind or stupid or both. Sorry...

[geiger]

3. Personally, I am esp peeved about bankruptcy and mortgage loan law

clearly written to the advantage of creditors. Congress should have seen this crisis coming about six years ago.

[Kukesa]

4. It's all about race, Max.

It's the "Archie Bunker" voters here in Ohio and Pennsylvania; similar to the "Bubba" voters in states to the south of us. These people made up their minds after their initial shock that a black man could even run for president and there's no swaying them. No way at all. I grew up around these folks and it all makes sense to me. Not good sense, but sense.

:-(

[MeDeMax]

5. I too understand their thinking

and at some level I don't fault them for their racial prejudice.

What I don't understand is, how can a candidate's race be so important that you would rather see your family suffer, than vote for a black ? That's the part I am not getting.

Many in the media, and on the other side, have criticized Barack for being an elitist. As the leader of the FREE world, I expect her/him to be able to think and act with a vision beyond what my limited mind can comprehend.

Even if she/he doesn't say so publicly, I sure hope they know they are better than me, and that they can accomplish more than I can.

I WANT MY PRESIDENT TO BE AN ELITIST.

I don't expect anyone I have a beer with, to run for president, nor do I expect the president to have beer with me. So I am bit puzzled by voters supporting a candidate because they think "he is one of us" (the evangelicals in 2000 & 2004).

[Kukesa]

7. Yeah, and what did those evangelicals get

from this administration? What did the wing-nut gun folks get? I had a guy tell me he'd never vote for a Dem because he LOVES his guns and that John Kerry would take his guns away. What did those folks get?

Don't they ever learn? I find it difficult to feel sorry for folks who still have Bush '04 stickers on their cars while they're looking for jobs. Don't they get it?

BTW, I'd love to have an elitist latte with Obama when he becomes president. I'm sick of a president who behaves like a clown and acts like a buffoon.

[ladym55]

9. Here are two dumb white men from the radio this am

Dumb white man 1 won't vote for ANY Democrat because he/she will "raise taxes, and I'm doing really well under the Bush tax plan." When asked if he was in the top 1% of incomes in the US, this $50,000-a-year dimwit said, "No, BUT I WILL SOMEDAY." So much for his math skills and his grasp on reality.

Then there was the even dumber white man 2 who called and said that if Obama wins, he'll IMMEDIATELY demand reparations for blacks.

So I begin to understand some of what we saw in Ohio and what happened in PA. In the fall, however, the difference will be that the state parties will be behind ONE candidate. In both Ohio and PA, Hillary had the advantage of the state political machine. That won't help with the dumb white vote, but it should get other Dems back on board.

[MeDeMax]

11. good point times 10

I agree that widespread male ignorance, coupled with male arrogance, is a huge problem in general and in Ohio in particular.

Dumb men are readily found worldwide, I don't know that race is a contributing factor.

We need to start seriously recruiting a woman to be the next Governor to take Ted's place when he steps down.

[Kukesa]

13. Jon Stewart put the thought into words when he asked

Obama if he was "going to enslave the entire white race" when he became president. Isn't that what they're really afraid of?

BTW, your analysis of Dumb White Men 1 and 2 is hilarious but unfortunately, very true.

And I also agree with your last sentence. All Aboard, Dems?

[AngryOldDem]

12. I look at it this way....

If I want my president to be someone I can sit down and have a beer with, I'll nominate Homer Simpson, or anyone else who likes a Flaming Moe.

Face it -- people go with what they know. Change is frightening because it's an unknown. That's what I meant downthread when I said that it's a combination of fear and racism that is driving the votes of many working-class people.

Obama represents what many people say they **want** in American politics and in their politicians, yet when it comes right down to it, they cannot commit to that change exactly because they have become so comfortable with the status quo -- comfortable with their own misery in some cases. Also, they want the quick fix to their problems. They know in their guts that this nation has become fundamentally flawed, but that doesn't matter. As an example, CNN this morning has a question asking viewers about which gas tax option they favor: HRC's or McCain's (which are virtually the same -- suspend the tax over the summer) or Obama's (keep the tax in place and look for longer-term solutions to the oil crisis).

I'll bet a Flaming Moe that HRC (and McCain) will outpoll Obama outrageously on that question because all people will see is the quick-fix of no tax for three months (more money in the pocket), which will quickly evaporate once the tax is reinstated in the fall when OPEC prices will probably be at or above $200 a barrel. Which option makes the most sense over the long term? But all most Americans will hear is "no tax," which again gives HRC another avenue to bash Obama as an "elitist" (and probably a Hummer-driving one at that), while she continues the folly of appearing as someone who's "just like us" and "feels our pain" at the pump. (As she did in a news clip this morning, somewhere in Indiana, I think.)

Obama also represents what we say we **want** to see result from 40 to 50 years of the civil rights movement. For some that is also scary (the Newsweek story explains how the reticence of some voters on the question of race could very well swing the election). The polls and opinions on the race element are downright schizophrenic, which further explains the electorate's confusion and doubts about Obama on this score. We like to think we have made progress on the race question, but the uncomfortable truth is we really haven't.

I hope you get a chance to read the Newsweek article and essays. As hard as Obama is working, he still has a lot of road to cover and a lot of that is due to the American voter's opting to stay in his or her comfort zone, which is rapidly turning into a bunker mentality.

[MeDeMax]

14. thank you for such clarity -- n/t

[AngryOldDem]

15. Well, thanks. I was afraid I was making no sense -- it was early.

I'm just getting tired of seeing hard-working people being suckered in by the "just us folks" crap, and then realizing too late that they've been had -- yet again.

[geiger]

6. Hillary is definitely playing the race card, but

originally, people "crossed" over because they tho't she would be easier to beat than McCain.

To me, she is now more despicable than them, both for being irresponsible in matters of policy especially, but also for employing the tactics she deplored when used against her (which makes her a pathetic power-monger and political whore).

[rg302200]

16. Poli you hit the nail on the head

Thats why I switched my support from Hillary to Obama after she started to speak and act like a ReThug. She is a political whore who will do whatever it takes to get elected. Even if its running like a ReThug....she's dead to me now and to that I don't even want her in the Senate. I hope a real democrat runs against her when shes up for re-election!

[AngryOldDem]

8. Max...find yourself a copy of the May 5 edition of Newsweek.

Read the main article, plus the essays by Jonathan Alter, Ellis Cose, and Raina Kelley. Ignore the bullshit from Karl Rove and George Will.

I think the reasons are somewhere in the middle between race and elitism, and how people who know how to play the game better than Obama are using what are actually flaws in their own personalities/candidacies to undermine him.

[MeDeMax]

10. will do AOD, I think I found a link

http://www.newsweek.com/id/134397