Yes or No on issue 6 ?

[MeDeMax]

http://www.yesonissue6.com/

http://www.noissue6.com/

Issue 6 doesn’t guarantee Ohioans anything. Even the sponsors of the issue admit that because of a serious loophole, there is no guarantee the operators will have to pay any casino taxes on profits raked in from a casino monopoly.

I get it, that there is a serious loophole, so what ? We fix it next year with another issue on the ballot.

The yes people are offering a phone number for anyone to call in and ask questions 216-378-7678.

http://www.yesonissue6.com/contactus/index.asp


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[JohnnyRingo]

1. I'm voting no until they decide to cut me in for a percentage.

I'm only half kidding.
I've heard all the arguments, and believe me I'm far from a puritan, but I see all downside with little to gain as a citizen of Ohio on this.

They tell us it will bring money into the state.
I don't believe the casino owners are from Ohio, so our money will not stay here.

They say the casino will bring an influx of cash into the community via jobs.
Have you ever driven down to Mountaineer Park? The surrounding area in WV looks like a cross between a depression era movie and a Baghdad marketplace.

They say many jobs will be created.
The high paying managerial ones will likely be imported from the company's other facilities. That leaves Mcjobs like housekeeping and kitchen work. Yes they're jobs, but I believe the benefit will be outweighed by problems wrought by gambling itself.

Most people who frequent small town gambling casinos are those who have little money. People who, when they lose (which is likely), become a burden on society through family problems or crime.

They say money is leaving Ohio at 65 miles per hour?
I say jokingly that it's a good place to lower the speed limit and set up a sobriety checkpoint. It would bring in more money than the casino.

(Jokingly because I really, really don't approve of Ohio's checkpoints)

[MeDeMax]

3. Ringo

"I don't believe the casino owners are from Ohio, so our money will not stay here"

Many casinos are owned by huge corporations that specialize in gambling, the money goes to where ever the shareholders of those corporations are.

"The high paying managerial ones will likely be imported from the company's other facilities"

Of course they are likely to be imported from elsewhere, what does a manager do after working for the day ? She/he will go to her/his house in the Ohio community around the casino.

If the casino employs 50 people that make $100,000/yr, a 100 people that make $50,000/yr and 500 people that make $40,000/yr, these employees & their families have a $30,000,000 impact on the local economy. That is assuming their spouses don't work.

Unless you believe these "out of towners" live outside Ohio.

Next the profits are taxed by the state.

I agree that there are many downsides to, but like it or not the dollars are currently leaving the state and this project would reduce that.

[MeDeMax]

2. there is no contact info from the NO folks

you have to register to read anything about them, kinda sounds like a Bush-Cheney rally in '04 where you had to sign A pledge of allegiance (not THE "pledge of allegiance") to the crooks to hear them speak.


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[PuppyBismark]

4. Vote NO!

There is no reason in the whole world to have legislation in the state constitution about a single gambling establishment. Furthermore, it seems to be true that this issue prohibits oversight on the establishment and can allow lower taxes to flow to the state.

I believe we should allow gambling in the state of Ohio, but with a conventional set of rules, not by a constitutional amendment.

[geiger]

5. I will be voting NO

[AngryOldDem]

6. Ditto. n/t

[DeadManInc]

7. I voted for it. If there are issues with it, they can be fixed

before the establishment is built.

[rexcat]

11. Fixing any issues after the Proposed Constitutional Amendment...

has passed will be very difficult!. THIS IS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, not a referendum. If it were just a law and not a constitutional amendment I would agree with you.

[MeDeMax]

12. while not an easy thing, constitutional amendments can be amended too

Again, I am not disputing that gambling in general & casinos in particular are bad, I am also not disputing that this is a constitutional amendment with far reaching consequences.

I remember Voinovich appearing in an anti-casino ad in 1996 or 1998, in the last 10 years Ohioans haven't been able to find a solution to casino gambling, that is acceptable to the majority and fills the revenue shortfall from revenue bleeding out of state.

Now we have fewer choices and more at stake...

[Kukesa]

8. I voted YES because of the 8K job losses in Wilmington.

These people need jobs and this is their only chance. If this issue goes down and then DHL closes, Wilmington will be a ghost town.

It's jobs, it's all about jobs.

[VolcanoJen]

26. Jobs, Baby, Jobs!

Good jobs, too. It's surprising to me how many miss this part of the issue. JOBS... good jobs, hopefully Union jobs. Benefits, a high rate of base pay, and tips. Constant influx of customers. Ohioans spending their gambling dollars in OHIO instead of Indiana (in this part of the state) or Michigan.

Jobs, Baby, Jobs. YES on the issue.

[Kukesa]

28. You are sooo smart! n/t

[ckimmy57]

32. I voted yes

because once the casinos are here Ohio will be more likely to go after the tax $$$$. Let the casinos in, once Ohio realizes they screwed up for NOT legalizing gambling and getting ALL the taxes maybe they'll get off their ass and do something about it. Right now we need JOBS.....PERIOD!!!!!

[Kukesa]

33. That's what it's all about: jobs! n/t

[Ninga]

9. Voting No. And by the way take a look at this casino watchdog website out

of Detroit. Casinos are more trouble than they are worth.

www.theverifiabletruth.com

[MeDeMax]

10. dear N, what is the alternative ?

I am not disputing that there are problems with having casinos, yes the owners use the revenue as a lure for the voters when in fact all they care about are their profits. They are greedy b**tards, preying on the poor & the elderly, etc etc.

I get all that.

If you tell me that I can't have a McDonald's Happy meal because it is unhealthy, I am listening. But you now need to suggest what I should eat instead.

Go hungry because a Happy meal is unhealthy and more trouble that it is worth in the long run

...is not a solution.


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[Ninga]

13. Good evening MeDeMax. Kindly check in with the website I referred to, and and

decide for yourself.

Casinos prey on the weak and desperate, those who have gambling addictions, and quite frankly bring a rise in crime to the surrounding area.

I've been reading and so far,haven't found any pros to having casinos.

[Kukesa]

14. Lighten up just a little.

I LOVE going to the casinos and I'm "none of the above" in your post.

It's entertainment. Go with some friends, spend the day or evening. It's my choice: I could go to a concert, the mall, a ballgame, or the casino -- either way, I'm out about $100. (I've also won $3,000.)

[Ninga]

15. I understand your argument. But again, the communites that are invaded by casinos, and

the culture they bring, do not thrive and their quality of life changes dramatically.

You sound like a reasoned well balanced person.

My argument against casinos goes to the heart of those who are not.

[Kukesa]

17. Hey, I'm from Youngstown and grew up with the Mafia. n/t

[MeDeMax]

16. dear N, the BIG picture question

again, I am not disputing all the incidents reported on the website or personal losses of the individuals adversely affected.

BUT THE GENIE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE, Casino gambling is available all around Ohio.

250 million dollars from Ohio are going to go to Casinos each year period, that is a fact. Ohio needs a sizable portion of that money to keep its programs running. Bob Taft used up over 10 billion of tobacco money to cover up budget shortfalls. Strickland does not have that option.

Again, I hear your concern for the quality of life of the people around the casinos, but what about the state ? Do we increase state income taxes to make up for revenues lost to out of state Casinos ?

This comes at a time when Massachusetts and a few other states are considering eliminating state income taxes all together, giving people another reason for a mass exodus from Ohio.

.

[LiberalFighter]

18. Why would anyone vote for a defective constitutional amendment...

when the legislation should be passed by the legislators and signed by the Governor?

What it demonstrates is that it is too easy for amendments to Ohio's constitution.

[Kukesa]

19. Jobs. Jobs. Jobs. Whatever it takes for 8,000 laid off DHL

employees to get jobs in/near Wilmington.

I'm guilty of tunnel vision, but these jobs are badly needed.

[AngryOldDem]

20. But what kind of jobs?

Jobs that pay a living wage? Jobs that offer some kind of advancement, or skill enhancement, or offer decent benefits?

True, jobs are needed. But there are jobs, and then there are those that are the equivalent of day labor.

I have found a report online that Indiana commissioned to study the effects of the casinos it has operating. It's about 96 pages long and I hope to be able to sit down and read it and offer a summary here sometime before Election Day. But it's going to take one hell of a hard sell to get me to come around on this issue.

[Kukesa]

21. Well, for starters.

Not everyone who's losing their jobs at DHL is a pilot; plenty are sorters, packers, plane unloaders, janitors, etc. Unions do not cover everyone and pay rates aren't that terrific for most of their employees.

Casinos and their adjacent hotel and golf courses employ:

Security guards, maintenance employees (both skilled and unskilled; think electricians as well as general maintenance), hosts/hostesses, food service workers, cashiers, dealers, pit bosses, bartenders, waiters/waitresses, entire hotel staffs including office professionals, golf course maintenance people, lawn care experts, the list goes on and on. Many of these jobs are union jobs and decent benefits will be included. There's room for advancement and skill enhancement.

I drive through Wilmington every Friday during the summer and return on Sunday night. The folks there are desperate and any job will be better than no job. Otherwise, this lovely Ohio small town turns into a ghost town.

Any alternatives?

[MeDeMax]

22. I'll go one step further...

and say that whatever kind of jobs they are, the jobs are incidental.

I see the estimated 250 million tax revenue from the operation of the casino as the bigger benefit for the state. The cincy area alone is estimated to receive 20 million if the casino becomes operational.

Coming back to what type of jobs they are, let us say they are low wage jobs paying an average of $25,000 per year.

5,000 jobs x $25,000 = 125 million economic activity.

Can you think of another viable way to replace the disappearing 200 million dollar (8,000 jobs x $25,000) economic activity ?

[MeDeMax]

23. 20 years ago vs today

AOD, I look forward to your summary on the report. A few points I want to make :

1. why is the Argosy riverboat gambling group bank rolling much of the No on issue 6 ads ?
Because they stand to lose revenue if a casino is located in Ohio. If the Argosy group had an issue on the ballot to build a casino they would be for it and someone else would be bank rolling a campaign against it.

2. 20 years ago your average casino enthusiast had to go to Windsor Canada or vegas or altantic city to gamble.

Flights to vegas were cheap, you could get a decent room in a decent hotel in vegas for $30 a night, you could eat a good buffet meal in vegas for under $10. Today, you have a better chance of finding a shallow water table in the Nevada desert than those great deals. Those great deals are gone because Vegas too is competing with other cities for those revenues.

Since going to a casino took planning and serious time & effort, many of those entertainment dollars got spent locally (in Ohio) on something else. Now those entertainment dollars leave the state because we are surrounded by a choice of casinos.

Let us call the combined annual entertainment dollars of all Ohioans the "discretionary Ohio pie", this is a BIG pie probably worth well over a billion. A sizable portion of it is being spent locally on going to the movies, eating out, etc etc. The part of it that is likely to be spent in casinos is currently getting divided between Michigan, PA, IN, KY & other casinos states near and far.

Having a casino in Ohio, anywhere in Ohio, is likely to keep most of that pie right here.

The bottom line is that 20 years ago the casino issue could be viewed in terms of effects on the community, today it has to be viewed from an economic perspective. Until we can get several wealthy billionaires to move to Ohio and pay taxes on their wealth to fatten the state coffers, we are dependent on these dollars staying here to keep the state from declining further.

I have said my piece.

[Marty711]

24. Issue 6

I am not against gambling, but I am against this amendment. I truly think that most people don't realize this is an amendment, not a proposal. I'm not sure how many times I've read or heard people say they can change things in it or once this passes, they can build a casino in Northern Ohio. It won't be that easy. This basically creates a monopoly for this casino under their own plans that are written to their advantage.

Location is one problem that I have with this. I would say most people in Northern Ohio will continue to go out of state to gamble. It will be much closer, and quite bluntly, a better place to go. For me in Cleveland, Erie and Pittsburgh are much closer and more exciting, at least I can go to a great museum in Pittsburgh, what am I going to do in Wilmington? I'm sure most of the North feels the same way and will continue to go to PA and MI and of course, the majority of the state's population is in the Northern Tier. Why is this not centrally located like near Columbus, it would make much more sense.

Two, let's look at who is behind this. Lakes Entertainment is controlled by Lyle Berman. He got a golden parachute when he bankrupted the Stratosphere in Vegas. He partners with Indian tribes (he could do the same with this casino and the county tax split is gone.) Quite honestly, he's a greedy poker player from Minnesota.

Then there is the MYOhioNow partners. These are the "Ohio partners" and sadly, people know very little about them. The Lertzmans own American Asset Liquidations. They benefit when companies go under, basically, they sell the fixtures and equipment when businesses close (i.e. Food Town in Toledo.) This company has had several tax liens filed against it by Cuyahoga County. This is not a reputable company. The Lertzmans' father lost his business license due to shady practices. Dr. Pressman has no business experience at all.

The MyOhioNow partners stand to make $200,000 a year until the casino opens. This salary is coming from Lakes Entertainment (check Lakes' SEC files if you want to confirm this yourself.) Lakes also has the option to buy out the partners at a profit or sell their portion to another group - again this is in Lakes' SEC files. They are working for Lakes - in essence, as Ohio businessman but Lakes is paying them a salary.

Then there is the jobs issue, yes Ohio needs jobs. But these aren't great jobs. I'm originally from Detroit and I have not seen much change there since casinos came. Unemployment there is higher than ever. I also wonder are you going to vote NO on 5? Should we allow check cashing places to charge 300 percent interest rate so that a couple thousand people have jobs? Is that the type of jobs that Ohio needs to be promoting - casinos and check cashing? If that's the best we can come up with, this state will never come back.

Like I mentioned, I'm not against gambling. I supported the Detroit casinos, if someone comes up with a good proposal that makes sense, I'll gladly support it but not one written to one companies advantage so that they can have a monopoly in Ohio and write their own rules.

[VolcanoJen]

25. Bartender jobs, server jobs, banquet jobs, management jobs, hotel jobs, casino jobs...

... I could go on and on.

I'm with Kukesa on this (why wouldn't I be, she's my mom) but as someone recently unemployed in the Hospitality Industry, Ohio is starving for jobs like the kind this casino would provide.

And although I'm hopeful I'll find another job locally long before that thing is built, either way I'll be the first in line to apply for one.

Hospitality/Service jobs are the only decent-paying jobs left, to be honest and fair. Of course I hope they get themselves one damned good SEIU Contract before the first job-seeking trailer gets parked outside the construction site. :thumbsup:

[Kolesar]

27. I wished that the mayor of Lorain could have "got" a casino for his lakefront plan

I don't gamble, but the freedom loving libertarian in me does not see any reason why Ohio should ban casinos.

(Ok, "libertine" is more accurate)

[MeDeMax]

29. looking back, I wish I had supported it

All those vehicles speeding on I-80/I-90 to Detroit casinos would have stopped in Lorain.

If we could have three casino resorts in Ohio, I would pick the Wilmington area, Lorain and Mahoning valley.

[Kukesa]

31. Mahoning Valley casino?

What a terrific idea.

Before my mother died a few years ago, she and a bunch of her friends would hop on a Trump Plaza plane at the Youngstown airport and spend a few days in Atlantic City -- EVERY MONTH! This was their entertainment; they'd see some shows, eat at restaurants, do some shopping, and feed the slot machines. Trump knows about gambling junkets. I understand that Trump plane still fills up each month at the Youngstown airport.

My mom and her friends LOVED their little out-of-state gambling trips. It was their entertainment.

Had there been casinos nearby, that $$$ would have stayed in the Mahoning Valley, where it's badly needed.

Go figure.

[MeDeMax]

34. state border idea

by locating a casino close to the state border, you tend to draw revenue from the state it is in, as well as any neighboring states.

We have - I-70, I-71, I-74, I-75, I-80/I-90 - entering the state.

Mahoning valley is an important point of entry.

[MeDeMax]

35. I meant to say

Mahoning valley is well suited for locating a casino, as it is close to the state border and in a region that would be revived from the stimulus.

[Kukesa]

30. I feel the same way, Mr. Libertine,

although I go to the casinos maybe once a year.

If 38 states allow gambling, why doesn't Ohio? And, aren't jobs -- any jobs -- better than NO jobs?

[geiger]

36. no.

[Kukesa]

37. Plunderbund's Blog and his "Ten Reasons Why I'm Voting YES

for the Casino"

Link here:

http://www.plunderbund.com/

Makes sense to me.

[rg302200]

38. I voted yes for a number of reasons

reasons and understandings that I developed living so near to Wheeling W.V. I would go to the casino and be aw struck by the amount of Ohio license plates in the parking lot. I got so pissed thinking about how much revenue was being thrown away in WV and how many jobs there were there that could be used in Ohio. And I know they make good money because a buddy of mine deals black jack there. These are not fast food type wages these people make, not in the least! Considering how shitty our economy is right now a job is a job...we need all we can get. Beside gambling will never be allowed into the state if the Republicans have anything to say about it. Lets put the vote to the people and then force the state to work for us for once. Also be weary of the no on issue 6 ads, my beat is they are being funded by gambling interests from others states!

[MeDeMax]

39. the voters are being seriously misled

by the NO ads, someone figured out that you can hit a raw nerve by mentioning "constitutional amendment", so they are playing that theme to the hilt.

I didn't see people get all upset about a anti-gay-marriage amendment to the Ohio constitution in 2004, why now ?

Yes a few rich guys are going to get richer at the expense of Ohioans, but these folks paid for their chance to roll the dice and are willing to invest another 600 million in Ohio.

I am okay with investing and collecting dividends for your investment.

I want to see this one pass and two more issue 6's show up on the ballot in 2010.

[Kukesa]

41. Good point: we amended the Ohio constitution in 2004

with the anti-gay-marriage issue. It didn't seem to be such a big deal then; why now?:eyes:

[MeDeMax]

43. I meant to say, I want to see this casino built & two more on the ballot in 2010 - n/t

[Kukesa]

40. ". . . right now a job is a job . . ." You said it! And we need 'em. n/t

[Kukesa]

42. Get Over Yourselves.

Don't even both clicking on Plunderbund's blog. Here's his rebuttal to all the dissenters on his site:


Get over yourselves.

Democrats are against it because it hurts the poor too much. Boo hoo. Republicans are against it because they are worried how it will play out with religious voters. Blah!

For fuck’s sake, even the pro-business, small-government Buckeye Institute is publishing articles about how this bill DOESN’T RAISE TAXES ENOUGH on the casino business!

Enough with the lame-ass excuses already.

You are all acting like a bunch of libertarians: supporting some ideal yet ridiculously unattainable goal that you know will never, ever, ever happen.

Politics is about compromises, people; and success is achieved by getting movement in the right direction. If you agree that Ohio should allow gambling, then get put on your damn compromise hat and stop acting like a spoiled little kid.

You don’t have to publicly support this bill. But you should seriously consider voting for it.

At the very least, stop attacking it with your half-assed arguments and your silly excuses.


I've gotta agree with the man.

[MeDeMax]

44. Lyle Berman put out a new radio AD

He is the guy that the NO on 6 ADS are using in their ADs.

Lyle put out a new radio AD that the Yes on 6 group will pay $200 million in taxes to the state each year to be distributed across all 88 counties, and another 30% on revenue minus winnings, "NO matter how many other Casinos" begin operating in the state".

Period end of story.

[Kolesar]

45. Indian casinos, the red herring in the Issue 6 debate

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/33622979.html

By Carrie Newton Lyons

Published on Friday, Oct 31, 2008

The passage of Issue 6 will not make it easier for Indian tribes to open casinos in Ohio. Tribes have significant hurdles to overcome in order to operate casinos in the state. Opponents of Issue 6 are attempting to link it with Indian casinos, but the two issues are separate and distinct. In order for voters to make an informed decision on Tuesday, it is necessary to dispel the myths about Issue 6 and its relation to Indian gaming.

The Vote No Casinos Committee submitted to the Ohio Ballot Board arguments against Issue 6, stating that voting in favor of Issue 6 ''will make Ohio a Class III gambling state, making it easier for Indian casinos to open.'' This statement is wrong.

First, the possibility of an Indian casino opening in any state, including Ohio, is dependent on a multitude of factors. Perhaps the most important factor is the requirement under federal law that Indian gaming must be conducted on Indian lands.

The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA) — legislation passed by Congress for the regulation and oversight of Indian gaming — defines Indian lands as lands within an Indian reservation, or lands title to which is held in trust by the United States for the benefit of an Indian tribe or individual.

At this time, no Indian reservations are in Ohio and no lands in Ohio are held in trust by the U.S. for the benefit of a tribe. The likelihood of lands in Ohio being designated as Indian lands in the near future is remote. Even if Ohioans vote in favor of Issue 6, it is not a vote to create Indian lands or usher in Indian casinos. It is a vote concerning one, privately owned casino.

Second, Ohio has a state-run lottery and allows for parimutuel wagering on horse races. Class III gaming includes lotteries and parimutuel wagering on horse races. Thus, Ohio already conducts and authorizes at least two forms of Class III gaming within the state.

Furthermore, Ohio has authorized Class III gaming for many years, beginning in 1933 with the the legislature's approval of parimutuel betting and again in the early 1970s when Ohioans voted to amend the state's constitution to allow for state-run lotteries. The argument that voting for Issue 6 will make a Ohio a Class III gambling state is flawed because Ohio already authorizes Class III gaming.

Finally, opponents of Issue 6 argue that a loophole in the language of the constitutional amendment may allow the proposed casino to be exempt from state taxes if an Indian casino is opened in Ohio. The argument goes that casinos on Indian lands pay no state taxes, and Issue 6 provides that should another casino open in Ohio, the proposed casino's tax rate would be lowered from 30 percent of gross casino receipts to the lesser tax rate, 0 percent, of the Indian casino.

According to the media, casino proponents have conceded that this loophole exists, and they are working to correct it. However, the opponents' argument really plays into fears that Class III Indian gaming operations do not generate monetary benefits for the states. In fact, for a Class III Indian gaming operation to open in Ohio, federal and state laws require a compact between the state and the tribe.

In all likelihood, if Ohio were to negotiate a compact with an Indian tribe for Class III gaming, the state would take a share of the casino's revenues. Thus, the state would receive a monetary benefit from the Indian casino.

Whether a proponent or opponent of Issue 6, it is not about Indian gaming, and its passage will not open the door for Indian casinos in Ohio.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyons is an assistant professor of law at the University of Akron law school.

[Name removed]

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