I'm not ready to give up on the Sooners.

[NaturalHigh]

They got embarrassed by TCU and had a close call against Tulsa, but I still think they're going to improve and turn out to be a decent team. We're not looking at a national championship or probably even a BCS bowl this year, but I'm still holding out hope of beating Texas and winning the Big 12. Just call me a dreamer if you like.

[marbuc]

1. You don't get the Buffs

until at least the Big Twelve Championship game. You still have a shot to pull out a decent season before that day comes. :P

[NaturalHigh]

2. If we get past Texas...

I won't sweat the Buffs. :popcorn:

[andino]

3. Eh,

They are rebuilding... As long as the beat Texas, well, I and my wife are fine...

[NaturalHigh]

4. I took vacation for the entire week of the Texas game.

I haven't cancelled it yet, and I don't intend to. No matter how much talent Texas has, we still have Bob Stoops, and they still have Mack Brown.

[Kazak]

5. That's pretty much how I feel...

They need to cream the Pokes too, though.

[oneinok]

6. bad year

Hopefully they will get a bowl bid.

[newyawker99]

20. Hi oneinok!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

7. Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!

:evilgrin: This is the best thing to happen all season...I love it when the Sooners are losin'.
Duckie

[Coyote_Bandit]

8. Me Too

I don't care for anything that sooner image represents. I can't imagine why anyone would be proud of an image of a land run cheater and thief. And that Sooner namesake was adopted just a few years after the last land run. So don't try to tell me it didn't have political connotations when it was adopted. Clearly, it did.

[OKNancy]

9. Pirates and Buccaneers

Be sure to go over to the Pennsylvania and Florida forum and give them a few of your words of wisdom. Oh, and the Ohio forum too, we Oklahomans aren't too happy with the Cleveland Indians.

-
I'm Sooner born and Sooner bred
and when I die, I'll be Sooner dead
Rah Oklahoma
Rah Oklahoma
Rah Oklahoma
OK - U

[Coyote_Bandit]

10. It is not the team, university, players, students or coaches

It is what "sooner" represents. It is morally reprehensible. I live in Oklahoma and pay taxes here. I am entitled to criticize the "sooner" nickname.

No, I will not excuse the "sooner" nickname because somebody somewhere else happened to adopt a different tasteless and reprehensible nickname. One offense does not excuse or justify another.

Why are we proud of the land rush scoundrels and cheaters which the "sooner" nickname commemorates and glorifies? Certainly, I can understand why one might be proud to be an "Okie" or proud of the university or its coaches or its long tradition and sports heritage. I cannot understand why anyone would be proud to be a "sooner."

Yes, I know well the history of the "sooner" nickname and image. It was adopted about ten years after the last Oklahoma land run. When the "sooner" nickname was adopted folks were well aware of what it represented and the political and moral connotations it carried. Any student of American history knows the "sooners" were the scoundrels and cheats that crossed the border into Oklahoma territory and staked their claims on property before they were legally allowed to do so. They cheated. And in doing so they took unfair advantage of those who followed the law. Is that something to be proud of and to commemorate?

Are there no honorable or inspiring historical images, natural features, wildlife or business endeavors in the history of this state deserving of recognition? Apparently not. Either that or we prefer to be remembered for one of the most shameful parts of our history.

I'd rather be dead than be sooner born or sooner bred.

[NaturalHigh]

11. Uh, this was started as a Sooner FOOTBALL thread.

Frankly, I don't care what you PC purists think. The majority of people in Oklahoma are OU Sooner fans.

[RoyGBiv]

12. Hmmph ...

As opposed to the cheaters and thieves who waited their turn to take land from Native Americans. The point being, just saying you are an Oklahoman, if you have no Native American ancestry, carries precisely the same heritage, just with a timing difference.

Here's some brief history for you. "Sooners" tended to be poor outcasts, were often ethnic minorities, and usually didn't have covered wagons, horses, or other fast modes of transportation. A number of them were freedmen who had trouble taking part in the officially sanction runs in the first place, either by official decree or due to threat of death from white participants. The land runs were structured in such a way as to ensure the bulk of the good property went to those who were bigger, stronger, and wealthier. "Sooners" fought back against this social Darwinism in whatever way they could, often by sneaking across the border in the middle of the night and risking death to try to claim a piece of land for themselves on which they could raise a family.

Other Sooners, a not insignificant minority, were those who had taken up residence on land in what became Oklahoma before the land runs even started, many of whom had to fight, literally, to maintain their claims. My g-g-grandfather was one of these. He was a Southern Civil War veteran who had been run out of Arkansas on pain of death for killing a white man while defending a freedman whom he had befriended. He fled to what is now Graham, Oklahoma, NW of Ardmore. He was living there years before any land run took place and so was by definition a Sooner.

Certainly some "Sooners" were thieves and bandits, distinguishable from the thieves and bandits who thirsted for Native lands only because they didn't follow the "rules" of officially sanctioned theft, but the image of a Sooner is not as entirely bleak as you seem to believe.

[OKNancy]

13. Thanks

I got so ticked off I didn't even care to respond. LOL this same subject was brought up in the Sports forum.

:yourock:

[RoyGBiv]

14. Missed that ...

In the Sports forum, that is ...

I've had this argument before, usually with people from California for some reason. Don't *make* me get out my books. :-)

[OKNancy]

15. I have some of those

I keep Dr. Arrell Gibson's book handy. I majored in history at OU and I taught Oklahoma history in high school before changing to a much more lucrative career. :-)

[RoyGBiv]

16. Have that one as well ...

Not that it's the final word on everything, but that particular book is an essential element of anyone's OK history library.

Do you have Dr. Joyce's _An Oklahoma I Had Never Seen Before_? If not, it's a collection of essays about OK history with an emphasis on the lesser known aspects of our history, such as our deep populist and socialist roots.

The head of my department (history major here as well) was one Dr. Turner, who studied under Gibson. He put together what was essentially an OK history minor, combining history, sociology, and political science classes. I was one of his first recruits, and I found it very interesting. I got my teaching degree, then realized upon graduation I didn't want to be a coach. :-)

[OKNancy]

17. I think we were at OU at about the same time

( or maybe I'm thinking of Catch22Dem) I was there 67-71 plus 3 more years with my husband's graduate studies. My memory is so bad!
I can't remember his name but I had a wild history teacher who loved Jackson. I took a course under him about Jacksonian America ( the prof looked like Oscar Wilde though ) Then I had a really OLD guy who I hated. The rest I barely remember. I got married at age 20 (1969) and had a child in 1972, so my mind was elsewhere most of the time. Also, for some reason, my non-major professors made a more lasting impression on me ( Dr. Veili in English and Dr. Feaver in Philosophy )
Anyway, Dr. Turner sure is a name that I recall. Guess I should get out my transcript and try to tweak my memory.

[RoyGBiv]

18. Different Turner ...

You're probably thinking of Catch22Dem. The year you were getting married, I was getting born. :-)

As for Turner, I think I know of the one you're thinking about, but the Turner with whom I'm familiar is a different person. He's currently Dean of Arts and Humanities at ECU and is a former director of museums and historical sites, during which he had a lot of run-ins with idiot politicians who got their OK history from the back of a cereal box I think. He mentioned a story during a seminar I took with him that provided me with one of my favorite quotes. He was giving testimony before a committee that was responsible for funding humanities programs when some yahoo started spouting stuff about OK history that was intended to argue against the need for state money in higher education and also happened to be blatantly false. Dr. Turner said, "I'm really tired of people being stupid in front of me," after which he proceeded to rattle off a lecture on the subject beginning with an introduction of his Vita. It didn't help with the funding, but it made him feel better.

I loved that man.

It's interesting you mention being affected by non-major professors. I went to college twice, once fresh out of high school and again several years later when I figured out I really wanted an education. I had been a business major (for no particular reason) the first time and had fallen in love with my history and English professors, so when I went back to a different school (ECU), I double majored in history and English. With one very notable exception -- a guy younger than me who hadn't defended his dissertation yet and had a HUGE chip on his shoulder -- I got along famously with all my professors in both departments the second time around. But, I also found a professor who taught economics who assisted me with a paper I wrote that made me want to take some economics classes that ended up helping me understand a great deal about history.

Anyways...

[RoyGBiv]

19. PS: Seething with Envy

I found the thread in Sports that ventured into this, and all I have to say is that I hate you, in a loving sort of way. :-)

I'm completely jealous of your having had Angie Debo as a teacher. I've read all her books. The Turner I mentioned knew her. Great woman with an inspiring story all her own.