No shopping on Monday

[sandnsea]

Solidarity against labor exploitation, anywhere in the world. No shopping on Monday. Sort of a kick 'em when they're down thing.

Yes?

[MissB]

1. Of course!

Easy enough. :)

[OregonBlue]

2. Sorry but I'm saving ALL of my shopping for Monday!

My response to another post about food prices, Japan and illegal immigrants!

I grew up in the Hood River Valley in Oregon which is primarily Fruit ranching. We did not have Mexican workers. We had migrant workers. They were white and yes, they were poor. The fruit got picked and it was no more expensive then, relative to our overall food budget, than it is now.

In Central Oregon now, almost all of the ranch hands, foremen, construction workers, and pickers are Mexican. Most are illegal and few speak English.

You are forgetting that the reason food, expecially produce, in Japan is so expensive has more to do with the lack of land for production and the fact that most of their produce has to be imported. They have neither the land nor the climate to produce things like melons, etc., in any quantity.

If you are pro-ILLEGAL immigration that's one thing, but don't try to tell the rest of us that it makes economic sense. It's not good for American workers!!

[sandnsea]

3. When will we stand up for ALL workers??

When will we stand against any industry that exploits labor? Anywhere in the world?

Those white workers don't need to pick fruit anymore because we had a labor revolution that increased wages and provided social benefits for US low-income workers. They're choosing to take jobs at the local Wal-mart instead. In addition, farm production has increased. There aren't enough white workers to fill all those jobs, even if they wanted to.

In the meantime, immigrants have moved into other jobs and it is causing downward pressure on wages. This isn't the first time in our history this has happened, or the first time the immigrants have been targeted. It took a long time for people then to see that the answer was demanding fair wages for all workers, no matter who they were or how long they had been in this country. The problem is employers who are willing to break the law for cheap labor. Standing for labor means standing for all labor. Bringing illegals into the legal job market will allow them to join US citizens in demanding labor laws are followed. Fighting them is fighting fair labor practices.

The sooner US workers see that they should be in solidarity with workers in India or China, or undocumented workers, the sooner we can have another labor revolution and get a global living wage and health care for all.

[OregonBlue]

4. In the long term maybe but, right now we have serious problems where I

live. Allowing everyone to stay here and force our citizens into the same abject poverty is not the answer either. Guest workers are one thing, citizenship and being allowed to remain here indefinitely are not the answer either.

My son is bi-polar. I have had to apply for benefits for him. I was so surprised when I went to my local "welfare" office to discover that 90% of the people there were Mexicans. Many of them have 4, 5, 6 kids. Oregon is drowning in new requests. There is not enough money for basic health and mental health benefits and yet most of the people collecting those benefits here are not American citizens. I cannot get even basic, much less adequate, Mental Health care for my son (who has two children of his own to support) and I cannot afford the outrageous costs of good Mental Health care myself.

I am not a bigot, I do not hate Mexicans, I do hate what the current "immigration non-policy, non-enforcement" is doing to my state.

[sandnsea]

5. Just like the Irish 100 years ago

Low wages are why people can't take care of their own medical needs, not their race. Agri-business, corporations and business owners are the ones who hire. Why blame the worker when business could easily hire US citizens and pay good wages, and just don't. We're just stupid, always fighting each other instead of the people really causing the problem.

[OregonBlue]

6. Medical Insurers are the problem, not the business owners.

Most small businesses simply cannot afford to insure workers any more. It's gonna take more than increased wages to change our healthcare system. I'm sorry but, as someone who is very affected by the illegal immigration problem, I cannot agree with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I hate to see the Dems get behind illegals. It's a lose/lose for November. It's another red herring like gay marriage and we should just drop it. Legal immigrants are divided on this issue. They feel just as threatened as everyone else. It's not going to help us capture the Hispanic vote. Illegals can't VOTE.

[sandnsea]

7. Right is right

It doesn't matter who is being exploited, Democrats should stand up for that person. Why can't small business afford to insure workers? They have to compete with businesses that hire illegals, they have to compete with exploited labor overseas. They have to cut every place they can, including health care. They can't pay their employees enough so their employees can meet their own expenses. It's all connected. There are unscrupulous business owners who will do anything to make an extra buck for themselves and it hurts everybody else when they do it. They'll cut anybody's wages, legal or illegal. They'll cut anybody's health benefits if they can get away with it. They'll cut any social program if they think it'll save them a dime on taxes. Their only responsibility is to their bottom line and/or their stockholder. It's "just business". When workers start understanding that it's "just business" when we fight for our financial benefit as viciously as owners fight for theirs, maybe this imbalance will start leveling out. And if we don't stand with everybody being exploited, then business will continue to be able to jump around the globe the way they do now. Bringing immigrants into the legal process will enable them to fight illegal hiring practices which will benefit all of us. That's why we should be standing with them.

[OregonBlue]

8. That's all very noble but, it's obvious you have not been personally

affected by illegal immigration. So okay, you make them all legal. The truth is they are still going to work for less. All of the building going on in our area is being done by illegals. Hanging sheet rock, illegals, electrical wiring, illegals, roofing, illegals, roadwork, illegals, ranch hands, illegals, ranch foremen, illegals, logging, illegals, I could go on and on. You may well be right in the longer term but what's happening to many of our communities is a very real hardship right now. We are very rural and don't have a lot of work to begin with. So what's the short term solution? Do we all leave because we can't make a living? Do we move to state's that can still provide social services because they are not flooded with illegals who are using those resources?

Sorry but, again, I just don't think you have been affected by this personally or you would have a different take on it.

[sandnsea]

9. Gosh, fight for a better standard of living

Expose the companies hiring the illegals. Fight for health care that the employer has to contribute to and tie it to their gross profits so they can't hide their payroll. Lots of things to do.

People who earn low wages have to use social services, legal or not. That's not going to change just because we swap the color of skin of the person doing the low wage job.

My sil is a contractor. My daughter has worked for the state parks and in an assisted living facility. My son did wildland firefighting. I am full aware of how immigration is affecting wages. I'm in IT, I'm fully aware of how outsourcing affects business and wages. That's why I know this is not a worker against worker problem. It's 99% of the world against corporate power and if we don't figure that out pretty soon, we're all going to be living in huts. Standing up against labor exploitation anywhere is ultimately standing up for ourselves. There's no other way.

[OregonBlue]

10. How about standing up to the corrupt government of Mexico and

forcing them to create a stable economy there. In Mexico 95% of the wealth is owned by less than 10% of the population. I want Mexicans to stand up to their own government, not ours. It's their country. It's totally corrupt. Isn't time for a new Mexican revolution. They are being run by an ex-Coca Cola executive. Is the answer that the entire 95% or poor Mexicans should come to the United States or that they deal with their own government?

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree. When I cannot access social services in my own county and state because the system is overwhelmed by providing services to ILLEGAL immigrants, I am distrubed and angry. When my own son cannot get a decent job in my county because there are so many ILLEGAL immigrants working for less money than he needs to support his family, I am angry.

Sorry but, your goals are very lofty long-term and I am more than willing to join the long-term fight for worker's rights. Right now, I want change. I support a guest worker program for those jobs that Americans truly won't do. I also support border enforcement and HUGE fines for companies that are breaking the law. We need to be looking at those companies like Tyson Foods who shut down (20 plants?)yesterday because so many of their employees were immigrants.

If companies are fined for hiring ILLEGAL immigrants than those jobs will go away. The ILLEGAL immigrants will be forced to return home and fight to change their own government. Companies here will be forced to hire LEGAL residents and citizens. Did you notice the news reports from Louisianna of all of the illegal construction workers who had flooded into New Orleans for the reconstruction work who were PROTESTING their rights. Are you really going to tell me those were jobs that AMERICANS would not have done? Like maybe displaced, unemployed New Orleans residents???????? And those were government contracts!!!

We must force the government to rewrite the law that allows companies who outsource to gain government contracts. We must force the government to rewrite the law that allows companies who set up off-shore to avoid taxes to gain government contracts.

Why do you think the Administration, the Catholic and the Evangelical churches are so supportive of granting amnesty? Do you really believe the Administration is doing it for your benefit? They are well aware that granting amnesty will continue to drive our wages down. The majority of the Mexicans coming to the U.S. are Catholic and Evangelical. Evangelicals are the largest growing faith both in Mexico and among Mexican immigrants. They are anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, etc., etc., etc. They do not vote DEM.

I believe that granting amnesty is cutting our own DEM throats and I believe it is bad for America.

[sandnsea]

11. You're just misinformed

Nobody is proposing amnesty. That is made up out of thin air by the far right.

"We must force the government to rewrite the law that allows companies who outsource to gain government contracts. We must force the government to rewrite the law that allows companies who set up off-shore to avoid taxes to gain government contracts."

Democrats support that.

"I also support border enforcement and HUGE fines for companies that are breaking the law."

That was included in McCain-Kennedy. Labor law enforcement is to be turned over to the Dept of Labor for the first time, who have more power than INS. And I'm certainly for even stronger penalties if these aren't enough. We should be fighting FOR that instead of against immigrants.

"I support a guest worker program for those jobs that Americans truly won't do."

McCain-Kennedy calls for a path to citizenship, not a revolving door labor trade. A pure guest worker program, that sends people back home, creates the endless supply of labor that will keep wages down. Citizenship gives people ownership in this country, which means they will unionize and join the labor fight, and turn in those companies who have been hiring illegals.

Path to citizenship means going to the end of the line, paying fines, paying fees, paying back taxes, several years of verifiable employment, background checks, learning English and US civics and history. It isn't easy, it isn't cheap, it isn't amnesty.

You've been bamboozled into thinking something is being proposed that just isn't.

[0rganism]

12. Immigrants are not the root cause of our economic difficulties

By not internationalizing our increased gains in civil, economic, and environmental rights and regulations, we brought about a situation where it is economically inevitable that capitalists will seek labor outside our borders or outside our laws.

sandnsea is correct, we need to stand WITH workers in India and China and, yes, Mexico, or else their poverty will surely give them an exploitable edge in employability. The only way to stop it is to increase their prosperity and freedoms at home so they won't want to come here illegally, and American companies won't find an undue advantage in offshoring production.

Prosecuting illegal immigrants to stop illegal immigration is the equivalent of prosecuting illegal drug users to curtail the supply of illegal drugs. It is an expensive and ineffective non-solution that does nothing to affect the core demand. We need to treat the addiction by resolving the situation that led to the illegal immigration in the first place.