INCOME TAX

[sithknight]

We need to change the fundamental government structure of this fine piece of square green burning love.

Our state is firmly planted on a two legged stool. Property tax and income tax, both are too high and yet their still not funding our state's needs.

Let's change the dialouge. Let's get a sales tax in place and drop the rates on our other two revenue streams.

Let's make it a progressive tax that doesn't extend to groceries, thrift store clothes, and neccesities that people need to put clothes on their back, warmth for the house, and damn food on the table. But beyond that, we should sack it up and tax luxuries.

SO: viable? crazy? impossible? will seizmore strangle it in its sleep?

[0rganism]

1. Ain't gonna fly

> Property tax and income tax, both are too high

I disagree with ya there, but let's let it slide for now.

We couldn't even pass a PROGRESSIVE income tax increase, thanks to stoogemore and his merry band of thugs. A sales tax is inherently REGRESSIVE (as well as an attack on commerce), and would likely go down to summary defeat. Due to the "supermajority" requirement for any and all revenue-generating ballot measures, it is highly unlikely that anything can be done in the short term.

The "alternative minimum" corporate tax is a bunch of farking bullshit that needs to be changed, PRONTO. Whether or not you think YOUR income and property taxes were too high, I betcha you paid a lot more than PGE and 2/3 of the other Oregon companies.

What we need is for Norquist's bunch to LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE so we can get a healthy revenue stream flowing again. Government services require taxes. People here need to figure it out. Maybe that means we all have to live like we're in Powers for a few years? I don't know.

We could recover with another economic boom (like we had in the Clinton nineties) to up the total intake, but unless we can enact responsible tax policy at that time, the next bust is going to sink us just as fast.

[sithknight]

2. two questions

You wrote: "A sales tax is inherently REGRESSIVE (as well as an attack on commerce...".

Now, is that sarcasm? Or do you really think that? True, a sales tax can be regressive (assuming by that you mean taking money from a citizen where they need it most), but that is precisely why I propose not taxing those things a person needs to survive: non-prepared food, basic clothing, medical supplies, umm...we would draw the appropriate lines.
So is that what you mean by regressive?

On that note. Secondly: you're saying that the practical reality of Oregon governmental structure is so wack that we'd never be able to pass it: I agree, but I didn't want to open too big a kettle of fish. I also thought about seeing how many people think we need an annual (ie. full time) legislature rather than this biannual crap.

Personally i don't think we should let any tax laws or constitutional amendments to be passed by the voters. I want some serious attention paid to that sort of thing rather than gut feeling voters. I hate not having money to buy beer as much as the next guy, and that's why I concede the conservative fear of vacuums in their wallet.

You're probably right but this state is seriously WACK and I apologize for the caps. I'm a native and trying to take serious responsibility of trying to get this state to not be so damned ghetto.
Since the voters keep saying "less taxes" I'm just trying to think of a good way to say "here is a new tax".

Cause in the final analysis a sales tax is gonna pull in a whole lot of revenue, and create a huge surplus. If we don't offer any degree of tax relief, then people are gonna get pissed. The practical reality of my proposed three tier tax system is that we'd have to strike the appropriate balance regarding the applicable rates.

[0rganism]

4. answers

> You wrote: "A sales tax is inherently REGRESSIVE

I did indeed

> Now, is that sarcasm? Or do you really think that?

This is one of those rare occassions where I'm actually serious. Let me tell you why.

> I propose not taxing those things a person needs to survive

See, you're halfway there already. You comprehend that flat-taxing survival necessities is cruel to those who are trying to make ends meet. Now take that to the next step and understand why it is. Let's say Ben, who makes $10000/year, and Bob, who makes $100000/year, are in the market for used cars. For simplicity, I'll set the sales tax at 10%. Ben and Bob both look at a $1000 car, which is $1100 after sales tax. That extra $100 each would pay is a full 1% of Ben's annual salary, but only 0.1% of Bob's.

For every similar purchase Ben and Bob make that is taxed, the tax hits Ben ten times harder than it hits Bob. In fact, the richer you are, the less the tax matters! Sure, Bob will probably spend more on the taxed goods than Ben, but he can purchase 10X more stuff than Ben before his tax burden equals Ben's.

A sales tax is regressive for the same reason a flat tax is regressive, but moreso because it directly attacks purchasing power at the point of sale. Conversely, it rewards those who save their money or spend their money elsewhere. And for that reason, it's an attack on commerce.

> Secondly: you're saying that the practical reality of Oregon
> governmental structure is so wack that we'd never be able to pass it

Well, that's the lay of the land. We ought to consider practical reality when positing solutions.

> Personally i don't think we should let any tax laws or
> constitutional amendments to be passed by the voters.

Considering the quality of the recent bunch of tax laws and constitutional ammendments that Siezemore and Mabon have pushed onto the ballots, you make a good point. On the other hand, the intitiative process is one of the few methods available by which citizens can be directly involved in our government. Restricting ballot initiatives to statutory alteration, and requiring all constitutional ammendments to be affirmed by both houses of legislature as well as by citizen referendum would be a good start.

Not to seem repetitive, but I don't think that would fly either.

[depakid]

3. Oregonians will never buy into a sales tax

Partly due to cultural opposition and partly due to the widespread (and correct) perception that once even a small sales tax is put on the books, the percentages will just keep rising. All we have to do is look beyond our northern and southern borders to figure that out.

Aside from the increasing the corporate alternative minimum tax (which I think would pass handily if it were proposed as a standalone measure) we ought to be looking at some of the ridicuous tax expenditures (giveaways) that we have in this state... like the "pleasure boat" expenditure that costs us $25 million annually.

[West Coast Democrat]

5. Sales taxes are inherently regressive

but I wouldn't mind a sales tax on luxury items such as expensive luxury cars, boats, furs, etc.