Apartment residents told to take down U.S. flags

[walnutpie]

Source: KATU.com

ALBANY, Ore. - At the Oaks Apartments in Albany, the management can fly their own flag advertising one and two bedroom apartments - but residents have been told they can't fly any flags at all.

Jim Clausen flies the American flag from the back of his motorcycle. He has a son in the military heading back to Iraq, and the flag - he said - is his way of showing support.

"This flag stands for all those people," said Clausen, an Oaks Apartment resident. "It stands for the people that can no longer stand - who died in wars. That's why I fly this flag."

Resident we talked to who had been approached to take down their flags all told us the same thing: that management told them the flags could be offensive because they live in a diverse community.


Read more: www.katu.com/news/local/64059697.html

[Brickbat]

1. So, wait -- he can't have it on his motorcycle? WTF?

[ixion]

2. it doesn't make sense: "we live in a diverse community" so be more homogenous?

I mean, I'm not a big flag flyer, but I respect the rights of people who want to.

[Pirate Smile]

3. "that management told them the flags could be offensive because they live in a diverse community."

:wtf:

[EFerrari]

38. I wonder if no flags, no signs in public areas, on windows, etc.,

is simply in the lease as it is in many apartment buildings and if the managers of this building just aren't very good at talking to reporters. Because that's what this story sounds like to me, a whole lotta nothing + two inarticulate people.

[imdjh]

45. I've lived in places that required only white curtain backings (liners whatever) and no personal...

... expression whatsoever on the building. You couldn't even dry beach towels on your deck or have an oil stain on your driveway.

[EFerrari]

49. Exactly. I bet it's one of those deals but the reporter needed a "story". n/t

[YOY]

4. "flags could be offensive because they live in a diverse community."

I smell bullshit story here.

Flags are "offensive"...well maybe when they're pinned to republicans or waved by war mongers like they own the thing...but by themselves...flags are not really offensive...frankly I have a tough time seeing how they could be construed that way.

[imdjh]

9. Does this smell like BS too?

http://cbs11tv.com/local/patriotism.at.office.2.1020415.html

For one Arlington woman, the answer was "no" after she hung an American flag in her office just before the Memorial Day weekend.

Debbie McLucas is one of four hospital supervisors at Kindred Hospital in Mansfield. Last week, she hung a three-by-five foot American flag in the office she shares with the other supervisors.

When McLucas came to work Friday, her boss told her another supervisor had found her flag offensive. "I was just totally speechless. I was like, 'You're kidding me,'" McLucas said.

You smell bullshit? When there are posters right here on DU who think it's clever to wonder if junior ROTC students would be issued "brown shirts" and another has confused a war movie with his own personal experience? There is a lot of crazy going around.

[drm604]

12. What's your point?

Are you claiming that a few incidents make a pattern? It's a big country, you can always find a few examples of silliness.

[YOY]

13. If it's who I think it is...he/she is trying to look clever.

And once again failing. THere is a reason why I do not reply to folks who put me on "ignore"...not that I find that too often.

[drm604]

14. I'm not sure how to respond to this

since I don't know anything about who is or isn't ignored. Are you talking about the person I responded to?

[YOY]

17. Just let it be known that the person who you called BS on is a BSer.

And that they keep replying to me on this thread. Despite the fact that DU tells them I am ignoring them.

Tells you a lot.

[drm604]

21. Got it.

I think I share your opinion.

[Dogtown]

28. yes it's bullshit

We have no-one's comment on the story except the complainer. For all we know, this could be another activist like the Republican worker that claimed she was beaten and her face carved.

If you fell for it, shame on you: you should be more critical of unverified stories.

If you're shilling this crap, shame on you: what do you take us for?

[imdjh]

31. Unverified? The Albany Democrat Herald, KATU, and Drudge.

http://www.democratherald.com/news/local/article_1b6bf198-b50e-11de-b924-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.kval.com/news/local/64084892.html

[Dogtown]

33. Are you confused or obfuscating?

I was referring to the article *you* posted, of course. ABC only had the word of the person claiming to have been ordered to remove the flag; hence, unverified and unsupported.

Not surprised that you were "confused" on the issue, not surprised you'd post unverified crap, either. From other poster's remarks, you've gotten quite a rep for purveying untruths.

[imdjh]

41. I don't know what you would consider verified, I suppose Kindred Hospital issuing a statement...

, as well as reports in two network tv stations, the Dallas daily, etc... is unverified in your book. You sound like those folks who think that Darwin's theory is simply another idea because there are no talking monkeys, present company excepted.

[katkat]

37. not her office

If it were solely her office and not open to the public, she could have a swastika up for all I care. But putting up any political statement in a shared office implies everyone there shares her views.

Unfortunately right now the flag is not having one of its finer moments, and I personally would not want it displayed in an office I shared.

[struggle4progress]

40. Yeah, it sounds like the typical rightwing BS one hears in the DFW metroplex: here are some clues:

"McLucas said the supervisor who complained .. is .. from Africa"

"what other freedoms will I lose before all is said and done?"

"It's just restored my faith in the American people"

I've never been in a shared work space where one person put up their own fifteen square foot display. Usually, one tries to share the available space

[imdjh]

42. Why are you making excuses for these people?

[struggle4progress]

47. A woman, who's whinin that some African won't let her be patriotic at work, is a racist: th'racial

background o'th'supervisor is completely irrelevant t'any issue here, and th'woman's posturin about losin her rights and then havin her faith restored is $3-bill-phony

Th'lack o'free speech rights in th'American workplace is a big problem -- but there's just no way a company in th'rightwing DFW area told an employee th'American flag is offensive

[imdjh]

48. What dialect are you writing in?

[struggle4progress]

51. Standard English, w'some obvious contractions anyone can immediately decipher

[imdjh]

76. Is there a point to the practice or just foolishness?

[No Elephants]

65. What's your point?

"she hung a three-by-five foot American flag in the office she shares with the other supervisors"


I don't care if she hung the American flag that size or a photo of the most adorable baby on the planet that size. She had a hell of a nerve.

Was there room in that shared office for each person to hang something that is three feet by five feet? Were all the people with whom she shared the space happy with her choice of decor for THEIR office? What made this woman think she had a right to decide for everyone? I wanted to mail order a Christmas tree for my son when he was in college. I knew enough to ask him first had he knew enough to ask to ask his two roomates before replying to me. He was only 18 and he knew better than this hospital supervisor.

If you own a home and are not subject by your own choice to a home owners' association, hang whatever zoning laws allow. Whey you affect other people or are on the property of others, such as an employer's property, you are subject to regulation, the wishes of others, etc.

Is this news to anyone?


I can't believe anyone thinks this story should be controversial. What the hell was the agenda in pretending this was a news story? And cslling it "patriotism," rather than "selfishness," or "gall?" Leave it to Texas.


P.S. On checking the entire story before hitting the Post Message button, I find this quote:

"Then, late Wednesday morning, Kindred posted on its website a statement about the incident. It reads, in part: "The disagreement was over the size of the flag and not what it symbolized. We have invited the employee to put the flag back up."

Much ado about bs.

[imdjh]

74. Corporate ass covering I understand, your position I don't.

"I don't care if she hung the American flag that size or a photo of the most adorable baby on the planet that size. She had a hell of a nerve.

Was there room in that shared office for each person to hang something that is three feet by five feet? Were all the people with whom she shared the space happy with her choice of decor for THEIR office? What made this woman think she had a right to decide for everyone? I wanted to mail order a Christmas tree for my son when he was in college. I knew enough to ask him first had he knew enough to ask to ask his two roomates before replying to me. He was only 18 and he knew better than this hospital supervisor."

Memorial Day is a national holiday. I am not interested in my coworkers' opinions on the US flag as long as I am in the US. Moreover, Kindred Hospital issued an apology for the act of taking down the flag. The coworker was wrong.


"Then, late Wednesday morning, Kindred posted on its website a statement about the incident. It reads, in part: "The disagreement was over the size of the flag and not what it symbolized. We have invited the employee to put the flag back up."


Executive ass covering. If the issue was the size of the flag, then why did they invite the employee to put the flag back up? Did it shrink in the process?

[drm604]

10. I smell bullshit also.

This is just too ridiculous. They can't fly the flag because they live in a diverse community? :wtf: I suspect there's more to this story.

If it is true then it's probably just one wacky complex manager, but you can bet the right will make a huge deal out of this and try to paint the entire left with this one oddball incident.

[democrat2thecore]

19. Read the story from the KATU website. That's exactly what it says & people in complex confirm. -nt

[drm604]

23. Then it's probably true, and it's ridiculous.

I hope that manager backs down on this.

[YOY]

25. Methinks there is still a little more to the story.

Some little fact or two they are not stating that is obvious.

[imdjh]

26. Right after 9-11 some apartment complexes in Tampa enforced standing rules against flags.

It was a very big deal, but then some of these flags were very big flags. We're not talking small flags tastefully placed, we're talking big flags draped over balconies. I don't remember how it turned out. I assume that everyone survived and that the reputations of these complexes weren't severely tarnished.

[Regret My New Name]

29. That's what I thought this story about when I first read the headline...

That it was talking about large flags hanging around and maybe making loud flapping noises. I can understand that(so long as it's a consistent with other policies). This case doesn't make much sense to me though. Unless there was a problem with the tenant getting in fights over flag, I don't see how this is right. Even if that were the case, I would think the real problem would have less to do with the flags than it has to do with the people involved.

[imdjh]

30. It's strange, the manager hasn't real explained herself. But here is another article on it.

http://www.democratherald.com/news/local/article_1b6bf198-b50e-11de-b924-001cc4c002e0.html

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imdjh]

16. The funny thing is that you imagined that I would remember that you have me on ignore or why.

The other funny thing is that you're acting like Lucy Ricardo and doing "I'm not speaking to Ricky, but if I were then I would say...."

[Nye Bevan]

60. Some DUers really twist themselves into knots over the "Ignore" feature.

It's quite fascinating. They put someone on Ignore but then just can't resist trying to communicate with that person when they post in their threads. A few days ago I was on a thread where someone logged out to read the response of someone they were ignoring, then logged back in again to post a reply to that person. I think you have had more of an impact on the OP in this thread than you would have done if he had never put you on Ignore.

I have never even been tempted to use Ignore. I am perfectly capable of ignoring people on an "as needed" basis, on the Internet and in real life, without any technological assistance.

[YOY]

18. Um...yeah. Still ignored.

For a very good reason.

[Techn0Girl]

44. Dude - enough already

Whereas I am sure that you personal tales of being ignored or ignoring others are interesting to someone out there they are not so to me. After reading 5 of your "You're ignoring me " posts I am putting you on ignore myself . Cheez.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imdjh]

54. I get no such notification in posting to you.

[Nye Bevan]

61. SOMEONE TELL THE SECOND IGNORED PERSON

that I am still ignoring the first ignored person, if they are not ignoring this person themselves. Or something.

[annabanana]

32. Are any of these "diversities" NOT in America?

Just wondrin'

[JonQ]

5. Perhaps the members of the "diverse" community

who were offended could come forward?

Or perhaps this is another case of people being offended on behalf of another group?

Besides, if you find the american flag offensive perhaps you should consider, you know, not living in the US.

[No Elephants]

66. Maybe if you want to display a humongous flag, you should do it on property that you own?

Please see reply #65. When you are on someone else's private property, you live by their rules, or get out. Not so for America, though.

One of the many reasons that I love this country is that the Constitution pretty much gives me the right to be offended or pleased by just about anything.

The RW "love what I want or get out of the country" perspective is so un-American.

[Oregone]

6. Flags are sometimes a bit tacky

So colonial looking :)

[democrat2thecore]

7. It's the POLICY that's offensive

What part of "United" don't they understand? If they use diversity as an excuse to not fly the flag within the borders of our own country, then by extension, no country should fly their own flag!

Does this world get stranger by the minute?

[YOY]

8. It's like when Republicans refuse to acknowledge Obama as president.

I bet I can guess who the offended fucksticks are.

[No Elephants]

67. One person taking it upon him/her self to impose his/her wishes on everyone else offends me.

Please see Reply ##s 65 and 66.

[democrat2thecore]

15. Could there be a more BLATANT First Amendment case? Apt Mgmt *Clearly* Violating Civil Rights

If you don't have the right to fly your own country's flag - in your own country - something is very bizarre.
A lot of people have died for the right to fly the flag. I'm no patriotic nut, but I understand blood, Normandy, Iwo Jima, etc. I say every person in that complex should agree to fly a flag tomorrow and force the management on their position. Really, this is so basic that they simply need to get a judge to issue a cease and desist against the management based upon a simple 1st amendment review. In other words, the management would be told - by rule of the court - that they cannot enforce a decision ruled as unconstitutional - that's a one paragraph administrative order. If they want to appeal (which no lawyer in their right mind would advise them to) let them give it a shot. What loons.

[Techn0Girl]

46. Could there be a more BLATANT First Amendment case? Apt Mgmt *Clearly* Violating Civil Rights

I'm really not sure if this is a civil rights case in as much as I don't recall anything in the first 10 amendments regarding the right to fly a U.S. flag. Maybe it's a freedom of expression issue. However I would not want to be the judge that this is brought before and rule that he can't fly a U.S. flag. If the judge is elected that's a showstopper right there.

If it is a right to be able to burn a U.S. flag as a matter of freedom of expression then I guess it should be a right to prohibit people from flying U.S. flags on your own private property (i.e. the apartment complex) if that is the way that you wish to express yourself. It has to work both ways - but then again I am not a lawyer.

I suspect that this will not be settled in the courts but rather in the court of popular opinion because the apartment complex owners are sure going to take a beating as being "unpatriotic" . This may or may not matter depending on the neighborhood.

[democrat2thecore]

50. I think it's an easy free speech issue -nt

[No Elephants]

68. Um, no one has any Constitutional right against his or her landlord.

The Constitution protects you (AND YOUR PROPERTY) against action by government. It is not a tenants rights law.

An apartment building belongs to a landlord who can, by lease, decide not only what you do in common areas or in public view, but even whether you can hang pictures in your own apartment, where no one but you can see them. You want other rights, live in your own place or on the property of someone who allows you to do whatever you want.

[baldguy]

20. Proposal: Pass a "Right To Fly The Flag Bill" of 2009

"Every resident in the United States shall have the right, if they choose, to fly the flag of the united states from their domicile or their property."

[democrat2thecore]

27. Or, just refer them to the First Amendment of the Constitution -nt

[AlphaCentauri]

58. A case I remember where free speech was not acceptable

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/16/us/protesters-block-store-where-vietnamese-man-wants-poster-hung.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/R/Recordings%20

[No Elephants]

71. Your memory seems to have failed you. From the link in your post:

"Last week, Mr. Tran's First Amendment right to hang the poster of the former North Vietnamese President and a Vietnamese flag was affirmed by an Orange County Superior Court judge, who last month had ordered the items taken down, pending a hearing. "

The court affirmed his right to hang the poster on his own property.

Also:

"Lieut. Bill Lewis of the Westminster Police Department said the authorities were holding negotiations since both sides say they will not give up.

''The bottom line,'' Lieutenant Lewis said, ''is that we have to maintain the peace and Mr. Tran's First Amendment rights.''"

The mob protested, but the law, the court and law enforcement were on the side of the property owner.

[No Elephants]

69. Good grief no. That would infringe on the speech and property rights of

everyone but the flag wavers.

If you own the property and there are no HOA or zoning regulations, fine. Why in hell should you have a right to do whatever you please on my property, though? Or flaunt condo or homeowners' association rules to which you voluntarily subjected yourself?

BTW, no size restrictions? No requirement that the flag be in good condition, and made of cloth, not light or plastic or anything else tacky looking? No requirement about placement?



I have a couple of small flags outside. If a neighbor objected, I'd take them down without whining to the media, ffs. I understand what it is to be a member of a community. I get I am neither the only member nor the most important member.

Get a grip people. There's a time and place for everything.

[totodeinhere]

22. The thing is, since President Obama I want to fly the flag again.

I didn't fly it during the shrub era.

[nyy1998]

34. +1

Travelling abroad, I was more proud to say I'm American then I was during the Bush era.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

56. I do find some American flags offensive...

...the ones that people have left up in all kinds of weather that have become dirty and tattered.

[Regret My New Name]

24. I'm betting the policy won't last long.

It doesn't seem like many, if any, people support it.

[No Elephants]

70. The only one who has to support the policy is the owner of the apartment building.

It is his, her or its private property. It is not subject to a vote.

[crim son]

36. Interesting in view of something that happened here in Bangor this las spring:

somebody in public housing called the media to announce that the Powers That Be were not allowing him to show his patriotism by flying a flag outside the property. There was, naturally, a huge response to this but it turns out that the guy wasn't merely flying his flag, but was drilling into the building to place a massive flag-holder on it, something forbidden by the Public Housing because of the inevitable misuse of the privilege. So, wait a couple days cuz the whole story may not yet be known.

[imdjh]

43. The real bottom line here is that it's private property. The manager appears a bit off, though.

The owner seems to have stepped in and said that while no flags are to be flown from the buildings (for obvious reasons) that vehicles are another matter.

And get this- Barb Holcombe, the manager, has challenged the owner's authority in the matter. She said something to the effect that he's responsible for maintenance but that she's responsible for tenant issues.

[Ian David]

39. He's trying not to offend his Republican tenants who hate America. n/t

[No Elephants]

72. Sounds like those who claimed Obama was un-American because

he was not wearing a flag pin during the primary.

[IndianaGreen]

53. Do they have Taliban as neighbors? Does Osama live there?

Stupid manager is going to catch a lot of hell for this.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. No, but it's not their property and they should play by the rules or move out...

Or if they've got the urge to drape an American flag somewhere, hang it up on a wall inside their unit. But if someone's living in an apartment or townhouse complex and there's limits on what they can have visible on the outside of their unit. I don't know why you seem to think there's some godgiven right to drape American flags everywhere. If it's not yr property, you have to live by the rules set by the person who owns the property. It's a bit of a no-brainer and I don't understand how anyone can get outraged about it...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

55. I live in a diverse community...

...and I see all kinds of flags here.

Maybe the management needs to take a stroll along Embassy Row in DC.

[No Elephants]

73. Difference being the owners of the various buildings housing the embassies allow flags.

If I own an apartment building, I have a right to set rules about what happens on my property. If someone does not like them, they should move.

[InfiniteThoughts]

57. that is one of the worst excuses that i have ever heard ...

every person has a right to fly their flag. asking someone not to fly it is deeply disturbing and unpatriotic ...

[ProudDad]

59. Hey, it's their property, they can say what

one can do with it if they wish...

Too damn many flags flying in the USAmerikan Empire anyway...

It's not like that in the civilized world...

[mrbarber]

62. WTF does that even mean? "Civilized world"?

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I read it as meaning that part of the world that has universal healthcare systems n/t

;)

[imdjh]

75. He's got some bug up his ass about America.

Went on some mess of crap about glorifying death in junior ROTC.