Which areas of Pennsylvania are less conservative?

[OnionPatch]

I grew up in neighboring Ohio, my husband in northwestern PA. We've lived away from the area for a long time but want to retire there sometime in five or so years to a small farm. We don't really care where in PA we end up as long as it's pretty and rural...and hopefully has the least amount of conservatives possible for rural Pennsylvania. We know PA is a conservative state (although I'm heartened to see it go blue sometimes) but I'm curious, are there any areas that aren't so bad? Any little havens of liberalism (in a farm-y area)? Which areas should we be sure to avoid?

[happyslug]

1. That is a hard decision to make for Rural Conservatives are NOT uniform.

For example most of the Rural people in the Western Part of the State tend to be tied in with the Coal Industry and thus heavy in labor and Labor's Liberal Economic Policies. As you get away from the coal miners you meet a lot of Rural Farmers who tend to be Social Conservatives and Economic Conservative BUT what Government to perform certain functions, i.e. roads and Schools.

Watch for what I call the distant suburbs, a lot of real far right conservatives nut cases end up in such locations. These nut cases want to be close enough to urban centers to enjoy the urban life but yet be in "Rural America". These tend to be in the Rural Counties near urban counties (Washington and Westmoreland Counties around Pittsburgh's Allegheny County for example). They tend to mix with the distant suburbs i.e. rural areas that are undergoing suburbanization or has undergone suburbanization since Reagan became President (Northern Washington County and Western Westmoreland County for example). Washington and Westmoreland counties are example of the type of mix you often see in such Suburban counties. Both Washington and Westmoreland have a lot of old mill and coal towns. These tend to be low income and heavy Democratic (The Monongahela Valley is heavily Democratic for that reason). As I said above the edge of these counties next to Allegheny County (The County the City of Pittsburgh is in) is undergoing Suburbanization and is heavy economic Conservative Republican. South of Washington Pa (and west of Greens-burgh (County Seats of Washington and Westmoreland counties) you see a lot of old farmers who tend to be socially conservative Republicans but want (and willing to pay taxes) for Government services. Mixed in with these large farmers are the smaller farms and old coal patches who tend to be heavily Democratic (Socially Conservatives but Economic Liberals, they support unions for example).

AS you get away from Pittsburgh you stay within the Pittsburgh "Region" unless you cross Allegheny mountain or go north of I-80. This area tends to have similar accent, for during the days of coal and steel a lot of people moved from coal to steel depending on who was hiring. The above borders tend to be the border of the Pittsburgh Seam of coal, thus the mixing of Coal and Steel. Coal mining has been on the decline (But is still a heavy done in Western PA) so you tend to have social Conservatives but who are economic liberals throughout the region.

One of the reason the area went for Hillary instead of Obama is do to this Combination (and the heavy Catholic population among the Union workers and related workers and relatives). In the election of 2008 many people liked pointing out that many of the people of Western PA voted for McCain over Obama (McCain actually won Greene County, a heavily union coal mining county. The main reason is a lot of these workers have an anti-black outlook (or more precisely a tendency to vote for a White man over a Black man). I should point out this same group also was more willing to vote for a Woman (Hillary) then a Black male (Obama) so it is progressive when it comes to women's rights (At the same time I ran across several blacks who voted for Obama because he was Black and Hillary was a woman, the exact opposite of the white outlook).

Just comments about the state. while many in the Rural areas say racist comments, it is rare to see an actual act of racism from the same group (Through watch the Southern Mountain Counties, The KKK has support in Bedford County but it is quite small and when I had to go to Bedford they liked pointing out that they were GOP to the Core, but accepted the fact that the urban areas were heavily Democratic. You just do NOT see the anti-Obama zealots in the numbers such zealot claim (We do have Birthers and other such nuts, but none are in any way in a position to run anything). No county gave more then 90% of their vote to McCain or Obama just to show you that nuts on both the left and right exist in every county, but as a whole they have no broad base and reported more as freaks then real political threats. The heavy rural industry (Including Coal Mining and Timbering) that has always been part of Western Pa has a lot to do with the above. We are NOT a 100% farming area, the farms in this area tend to be small hobby farms or homes for people who main source of income is a job they drive to. We do have some large farms (Bedford and Somerset has several nice size farms) but they are just part of Rural Pennsylvania NOT the Majority as such farms tend to be in other states (The Mountains and the Hills tend to break such farms up).

[OnionPatch]

2. Much of what you say rings true to memory.

I grew up near Pittsburgh, albeit in Ohio, but I remember the area well. I was myself a member of the USWA before I lost my job and had to move away. My husband also left the area because he couldn't make a living there. (We didn't know each other then.) The only reason we could afford to move back is because we will have our retirement to live on. We sure aren't counting on finding many economic opportunities there. When I say we want to retire to a farm, I'm talking about what you call a "hobby" farm. We just want to grow our own food and maybe have enough left over for a roadside stand or some sort of very small enterprise. Something like twenty acres, tucked into the hills sounds just right to me. (Lol, twenty acres is an immense amount of land to people in southern CA, where I live now. It seems so funny. That's only a small farm to me.)

What you said about racism is something I also noticed. A lot of them use racist words freely in their speech but on closer inspection, you don't see the same sort of festering hatred for other races in them as I observe in some places in the south and southwest. It's almost as if a lot of them do it out of habit more than anything. I called out one of my relatives about it, and she admitted she shouldn't use those words and didn't really feel animosity toward the group. Not saying she was the soul of tolerance or anything but I've met more real, bona-fide, hate-filled racists in other places, who I've rarely heard a racist epitaph out of. I wonder if they have learned to hide it better because they have so much more to hide.

One of my life's frustrations is that I love country living but hate being surrounded by conservatives. (And I can't afford to live in northern California. :)) I know of some liberal towns in conservative regions, like Asheville NC, or Austin, TX or Athens, GA. It would be nice to live outside of a place like that. I was hoping there might be a place like that in PA. What's it like around State College? I'll hang onto your comments for reference for when we start looking. Thanks for all the insight.

[Carol72156]

3. Rule of Thumb

I moved back to Indiana, PA about a year ago so I could help
take care of my folks who are getting up there in age. 
Indiana is home to Indiana University of PA --- enrollment
approximately 14,000.  Rural areas anywhere with a college
population tend to be more progressive.  I guess I'm biased
because Indiana is my hometown but I have found like-minded
people and I am very happy to be living in this area.

[OnionPatch]

4. That seems to be the case in many areas.

That's why I was asking about State College, just hoping it might trend that way too.

I'll keep Indiana in mind, thanks! It would also be close enough to the Pittsburgh area to visit family and friends. I haven't been there but have been through Kittaning. I thought it was a pretty area. IMO, it's hard to find a rural area of PA that isn't pretty, so the makeup of the people is going to make the final difference for us. I'm not expecting to find Berkeley or anything, just some like-minded people, like you say. And a chance to have some input on local issues. We are so overwhelmingly GOP here that feels futile to even make the effort. It would be such a refreshing change to live somewhere that's even half and half.

[happyslug]

5. I live in Johnstown, Cambria County is 1/2 rural, 1/2 urban.

Given the nature of Johnstown we tend to be social Conservative but Economic Liberals (As the term Liberal is used in the US, if if see other posts I have written I make reference to the fact that "Liberal" in the rest of the World means what we in the US call Right wing Conservatives, thus I tend to use the term "Progressive" to avoid that problem).

Somerset is similar. I use to go to Bedford and the Junior Judge in the County, a solid Republican, was much like the Gleasons out of Cambria County (and I have both Robert and Andrew Gleason, through most of my dealing with them has been with Andy not Robert) but they joke about the time they went to the 1964 GOP Convention, as Rockefeller Republicans and could NOT believe the how rabid the Goldwater Republican were about their candidate AND the right wing agenda. Both as solid Republicans but neither is the far right that seem to in control of the National GOP at the present time. They were in 1964 Rockefeller Republicans and they are to this day Rockefeller Republicans. Most of the Republicans I have had to deal with are similar (You do have your far right nuts and every so often one of them challenges one of the local moderate Republicans and promptly loses either the primary or the general elections, when the far right wins a GOP primary it tends to be for an office the GOP does not believe it can win so it let the Rabid right winger try).

Now the Right wing is vocal, in local elections they are first with signs for their candidate and put up the most signs, but while visible rarely win anything (and NEVER the general Election). That is the Condition in almost all of Western Pennsylvania (And by Western Pennsylvania I am using the Eastern PA definition, i.e. Anything West of Blue Mountain, the First ridge going West of the Appalachian Mountains).

Now as you go further east and North in the Mountains you get stronger tendency away from the Western Pa norm (Juniata County for example is noted for being one of the few in the country, and the only County in Pennsylvania to even vote down the idea of forming a Public Housing Agency in the County, please note that was in the 1930s-1940s, through it did from a Legal Service unit under LBJ's Great Society Program of the 1960s).

I would recommend Somerset, Bedford, Indiana, Huntington, Fulton, Jefferson, Clarion, Fayette, Beaver, Clearfield and even Greene County (Any county in Western Pa south of I-80 but not to close to Pittsburgh). West moreland, Butler, and Washington Counties are to close to Pittsburgh to find a good hobby farm. York, Adams, Cumberland and Perry County are to close to Harrisburg and for that reason overpriced (Lobbies do NOT want to live in the City of Harrisburg and slowly making all of those counties suburbs of Harrisburg). Adams has the further disadvantage of Gettysburg and the people who want to live there.

Yes, I have been looking for one myself, but in the Johnstown area for I am still working. Now one of the problems with the local Realtors web sites is that the Realtors are so geared to sell homes, they ignore the property. Thus you may want to look at the real estate ads for homes to see which ones have acreage with it.

Now I have looked at some in my area. Here are some I rejected and why:
http://teamrealtors.pennsylvania.remax.com/PropertySearch/ListingDetail.aspx?lid=75798499

20 acres with a House and Greenhouse, what up the street from the Great Allegheny Passage Bike trail (Which I liked). I never looked at the house so I will NOT make any comment about it (Except to say you can NOT see the house from the road, a big plus for me). The Greenhouse appears to be an old very small nursery, nice size for a greenhouse (I liked the Greenhouse). The acreage was under s Somerset County tax abatement program for agricultural lands (You will have to look up the details yourself, but if you plant crops and sell the crops as you indicate I believe you meet the requirements). I rejected it for several reasons, first it was about an hour drive on what I call "Old 219" (US 219 is a limited expressway for parts of its length, for example from Somerset to Johnstown to Ebensburg PA), but in other areas it reverts to a 1930 era US Highway with a lane in each direction, going through towns etc. US 219 bypasses Myersdale so NOT a problem if you wanted to live on the property, but getting to Johnstown on old 219 was a deal breaker for me. A second problem was the lay of the land. This farm is on top of the Mountain, but seems to be two Slopes of an steam through the middle of it. The Slopes are NOT bad for Western Pa, a tractor could be used but it is severe enough for me to be wary about using a tractor on it (You just have to be careful so that any tractor does not tip). The Third reason I rejected it was it had trailer on the property. The Trailer paid lot rent (i.e. the tenant owned the trailer, they are just renting the lot) and it is off to the side so could be ignored, but it was another factor I did NOT want to deal with. Other then those three problems it was a nice hobby farm. Next to Myersdale and the Bike Trail. Close to the Turnpike (About 45 minutes away) had lots of pluses the big killer for me was the distance. A fourth reason I rejected it is that some previous owner of the property sold off some of the road side frontage for other housings. These house separate you from the Greenhouse if you go by the road (You can still walk across the land to get to the Greenhouse). Yes, I liked this house the distance was the big killer the rest more nitpicking then actual deal breakers given the house's location so near the Bike Trail.

I am looking at this one, have NOT rejected it but with ten acres and a nice home not bad, I think the price is a little high for the location but that is all I can say right now:
http://teamrealtors.pennsylvania.remax.com/PropertySearch/ListingDetail.aspx?lid=75798618

Now this is a real dog, looked good on paper but when I drove by the lot is all up hill (Through clear and about the same Grade as the Myersdale Property but the land was all chewed up and the price reflects that this is in the Suburbs of Johnstown and someone is selling a suburban dream when the lot is NOT that good:
http://teamrealtors.pennsylvania.remax.com/PropertySearch/ListingDetail.aspx?lid=78189773

The web site I used for the above:
http://teamrealtors.pennsylvania.remax.com/PropertySearch/Residential.aspx?QF1=SearchableLotSize&QV1=217800&QC1=8&QA1=0&QI1=0&QF2=State&QV2=PA&QC2=0&QA2=0&QI2=0

Yes, I have been looking for a Hobby Farm and I have seen my share of dogs, but since you are also looking I give you my comments on some of the hobby farms I have seen

[OnionPatch]

6. I noticed it's harder to find property at the websites.

On most real estate sites I go to, I swear it seems like my searches keep returning homes with no property even when I specify I'm interested in a place with acreage.

Yes, I would be a little leery of a trailer rental on my property although I'm sure it could also be no problem if the people were cool and kept the place up. A little extra monthly income might be a real plus, too, but I would need plenty of separation and privacy from them. I'm like you in that I want a place you can't even see from the road. Somewhere way down a dirt road sounds good to me. A greenhouse would be a big selling point for me, too. Ah, the possibilities!

Those places all look generally like the sort of place I'd consider but I'd also be open to buying property and then building something extremely efficient and green. It seems like it would be easier to make the house energy independent if you build it yourself rather than retrofit. Do you know if zoning allows straw bale construction in Pennsylvania? I wonder if it would be practical there, I'll have to check it out. I've lived in the southwest for so long I haven't looked into what would work best in PA.

Thanks for the tip on Juniata County. My husband likes to fish and comments that we should be near the Juniata River, but no thanks if that's what the place is like. :) What is it like down in the area around Seven Springs and Uniontown, PA? I like that area.

Good luck with your hunt. I'd love to hear what you end up finding.

[happyslug]

9. As to the Junita River, some of the far right have "Rewritten" the law

Under Pennsylvanian law since the time of William Penn, any stream of water is a "Highway" UNLESS it starts on your land. People are NOT trespassing if they stay in the water (But if they sit on the land they are trespassing, please note this is Civil Trespass in which you are liable for damages only).

Civil Trespass is the action at law if someone enters the property of another. You can ONLY have criminal Trespass if you are committing Civil Trespass first. Criminal Trespass is a creation of Statutory law and as such are to be "narrowly construed" i.e, you must be clearly violating the Statute, if not you are not guilty of it (thus if you are NOT committing Civil Trespass, you can NOT be committing Criminal Trespass). What most people call "Trespassing" is Criminal Trespass, NOT Civil Trespass but I like pointing out the difference when we are talking of "Trespassing".

As to the Junita River some of the owners of property on both sides of the River have said they own the river in addition to the land on both sides. They have a deed which does NOT mention the River AND technically the River is part of the land in the deed. Any Attorney who knows the law will tell the owner, that is clear you own both sides of the River and the land under the River BUT the river itself is still a public Highway and anyone can use it. In the last couple of years some right wing nuts on the Junita River have said since they have a deed that includes the River they can posts "No Trespassing" signs and anyone who uses the River in violation of those signs is committing Criminal Trespass (One of the requirement of Criminal Trespass Acts, it is NOT Criminal Trespass if you enter lands that are NOT posted with "NO Trespassing" signs). The Fish Commission has told them that is NOT the law, the State has told them that is NOT the law but they insist it is the law. It has been an Headache but it is slowly being resolved. People are betting that the property owners realized that they have no case before anything ends up it court but it has been a recent problem and even the locals consider the side pushing the idea as crazy.

[MrMickeysMom]

7. I found your explanation to be very informative...

Thanks. As someone who's only lived in Monroeville for 12 plus years, it made a whole lot of sense to me!

I hesitate to say that Monroeville has any real farms left, but what we DO seem to have here is a community that seems to have enough tension to turn progressive. It's going on right now.

Yet, there is much acreage nearby like Plum Borough, and 22 parks (many neighborhood, several community, dog parks, and a multi-cultural Indian temples and population to go with it, seemingly more mixed races who are interested in local government and some groups that have sprung up in the last year such as "Sustainable Monroeville", which just had their last meeting present a bunch of information on organic farming.

http://www.sustainablemonroeville.blogspot.com/

I wish the OP would consider our community!

[happyslug]

8. Last time I heard the only farms left in Allegheny County are in Elizabeth Township

The rest of the county is urban (Thus the suburbanization of Southern Butler, Northern Washington and Western Westmoreland counties. Those are the counties to the North, East and South of Allegheny County. In the west you have the Pittsburgh International Airport. In many ways that blocks any movement further west. Greater Pitt is the fourth largest Airports (In term of land area) in the country 42 Square Kilometers, SK. Only Denver International Airport (at 140 km2, built 1989), Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport (Built 1966) and Orlando International Airport (Transferred from the Air Force in 1974, 60 km2) are larger in area.

The reason for that was the County Commissioners of the 1940s-1960s saw air travel as the way to go AND had the opportunity to purchase a huge number of abandon strip mines in what is now Greater Pitt (Other land was also purchased, but most of the land, but not all of the lands purchased were abandon strip mines). Those Commissioners acted on that idea and went forward with the plans for a new airport. The area around the actual runways is huge, accidents that kill people on the ground in most airports will not at Greater Pitt do to this huge safety area (Which Allegheny County can NOT sell for it was purchased with Federal Funds on the grounds the Air National Guard could share the runways AND have a base in the same area, one of the requirements of that funding is that the land will NOT be re-sold without Air Force Permission, and the Air Force likes the size of Greater Pitt and will NOT allow such a sale to occur. The Air Force did permit the old Terminal to be torn down and replaced by office buildings BUT not the vacant land itself). Please note, while Greater Pitt is the Fourth largest Airport in Area, it is only the 47th in passenger Volume in the US.

One side comment, the County Commissioners of the 1940s saw an opportunity to buy the land cheap and build a large new Airport, even through the older Allegheny County Airport was viewed as fully usable as an airport at that time AND was foreseen to be adequate for another 10-20 years (most other cities kept on to their older airports till the 1950s and later when such airports were replaced). Except for Orlando International Airport (Which was a converted Strategic Air Command Base) no other large (in area) airport was built till the 1960s. thus Greater Pitt was roughly 20 years ahead of its time. The Older Allegheny County Airport is a nice size airport in West Mifflin. The runways of the Allegheny County Airport was lengthen in the late 1960s to accommodate the new jets then coming into use. Allegheny County Airport is still used by a lot of private planes (Including many the accommodate jets for business class people i.e Corporations headquarters in Pittsburgh). For decades one of the Goodyear blimps was stationed there, through something like 20 years ago the blimps were moved elsewhere. For its size, Allegheny County Airport is little used today and was no where near capacity in the 1940s when it was decided to go for a larger airport, but the County Commissioners of that period were forward looking and saw an opportunity, the land was cheap (Some parcels had been up for tax sales for years by the late 1940s) and they had access to Federal Funds to pay it up, so they took a gamble and purchased the land that is now Greater Pitt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_International_Airport

Just comment on why they have been no push to the west, it has occurred but Greater Pitt puts a huge restriction on any housing development to the West of Pittsburgh.

Last comment, Greater Pitt is 52 Square Kilometers which is about 20 Square Miles. Allegheny County itself is only 730 Square Miles (Excluding the Rivers which take up only 15 square Miles, just over a 1/4 of the area of Greater Pitt), thus Greater Pitt take up 7% of the total area of Allegheny County. The City of Pittsburgh is only 55 Square Miles in area, so it is barely bigger then Greater Pitt. Greater Pitts covers much of the land of two Townships, Moon (Moon is only 24.1 Square Miles in Area) and Finley (32.6 Square Miles). Greater Pitt is 20 Square Miles, together Moon and Finley are only 56.7 Square Miles, yes Greater Pitt is only 38% of the area of both Townships, but that is huge amount of Real Estate for any municipally to reserve to just one user. Thus development has occurred in both Townships, but it lags the other parts of the County (in regard to residential housing, it has come up to, and surpassed those area areas in Commercial Development given the Airport and the improvements in the Roads in that area over the last 20 years.

Fact on Allegheny County, including the square mileage:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42/42003.html

Pittsburgh Facts:
http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/cp/html/pittsburgh_fact_sheet.html

[Grand Taurean]

15. In Connecticut, we call this Litchfield County.

[Number9Dream]

10. Avoid the Lehigh Valley

As a long time Lehigh Valley resident, IMHO, the Valley is going in the wrong direction. Housing developments and massive warehouses are covering our once nice Lehigh Valley with macadam. Traffic is approaching gridlock. The school taxes are astronomical to pay for Taj Mahal schools and shady bond swaps. Politically, the Lehigh Valley is right-leaning. Except for a couple of terms for Democrat Paul McHale, we've had over thirty years of R's Don Ritter, Pat Toomey, & Chuckie Dent. The Allentown Morning Call, WFMZ-TV, and WAEB radio are all pro-repub. If I can ever afford to retire, I'm outta here.

[happyslug]

11. That is what I have heard, avoid anything South or East of Blue Mountain.

Blue Mountain is the first Mountain Ridge of the Appalachians as you approach the Appalachians from the east. The Blue Mountain acted as a Barrier in Colonial days and have stayed a dividing line in Pennsylvania to this day. I once saw a dialect map of Pennsylvania, the largest single Dialect was the Western Pa Dialect from about I-80 south and Allegheny Mountain West. Now the second largest dialect area was between Blue Mountain and Allegheny Mountains, i.e. the Appalachians themselves, but this is considered a minor variation of the Western PA Dialect (As you cross I-80 you start hitting Upper New York State Dialects). The map made an effort to show slight difference in dialect and major differences. It is only a minor difference between the Appalachian mountains and Western PA, it is a major difference between the two sides of Blue Mountain.

I bring this up for it shows the people "networks" on both sides of Blue Mountain do NOT interact (Unlike Western PA and the West side of Blue Mountain). Now once Blue Mountain hits the Susquehanna the Appalachian mountain Dialects cuts off to the north, but Blue mountain even separates the Scanton Area of the State from the area south of Blue Mountain (Which includes the Lehigh Valley). Just a comment that I agree with you, I would avoid the south and east of Blue Mountain. It is more and more like California and the rest of the East Coast, huge liberal inner cities with the economic conservatives moving to the suburbs. Part of this is historical (People tend to forget that Philadelphia County was a REPUBLICAN City long after Pittsburgh no longer had any Republicans in its City Government) for that part of the State has always been the most anti-democratic and pro-GOP part of the State. Harrisburg, Philadelphia and the rest of the old inner cities are heavy Democratic (As are the older suburbs) but the newer suburbs is where all the Economic Conservatives are going and you see that reflected in the Politics.

Now, East of Blue Mountain (And when you look at a map, Harrisburg is in the Eastern 1/3 of the state, yet when you listen to the Radio in that area EASTWARD, till you hit the Counties that border Philadelphia, they call themselves "Central Pennsylvania", thus I am using "East of Blue Mountain" for that is the better description then the name used by the Natives, i.e. "Central Pennsylvania" and "Eastern Pennsylvania").

The dialect maps just show who interacts with whom. South Eastern Pa (And I include both the Leigh Valley AND what the natives call "Central Pennsylvania" when I used that term) does NOT interact that much with people from West of Blue Mountain and even less with people North of Blue Mountain.

Map of the Coals of Pennsylvania
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/maps/map11.pdf
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3410974

Dialect Map.

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/PennaDialMap.html

Blue Mountain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Mountain_(Pennsylvania)

Just comments about why I would avoid anything south and east of Blue Mountain. The GOP in the rest of the state are much more progressive. The GOP in the Mountains liked Governor Pinochet in the 1920s and 1930s, electing him twice as Governor at a time when a Governor of Pennsylvania could NOT succeed themselves. The Eastern GOP only tolerated Pinochet for he could neutralized the Democratic onslaught from Western Pennsylvania (from the 1840s onward, Western PA was a heavy Democratic area, even when Pittsburgh was a GOP stronghold from 1860-1920, in the 1920s Pittsburgh rapidly turned Democratic, the last GOP Mayor left office in 1928, the last GOP in City Council left office in 1934, none have been elected since, but prior to the 1920s Pittsburgh was a bastion of GOP votes).

[OnionPatch]

14. Thanks. Will do.

You guys are giving me lots of great info! This will be very, very helpful when we make our move.

[steelmania75]

12. Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Scranton are liberal strongholds

Well, about 20 years ago, the counties that bordered Allegheny County were strongly Democratic, but that's changed over the years.

Stay away from central PA, that's like being in Alabama. Most of Western PA that borders Ohio ais politically independent, but have leaned GOP in recent years.

[OnionPatch]

13. I grew up near Pittsburgh.

I can handle their kind of "independent". As long as I can get involved with local politics and have a chance to see some successes, I'm good. Living where I do now is so depressing. There is almost no chance for change here. The worst part is that this place is full of evangelical, Christian-rightwingers. I NEVER, EVER want to live around so many whack-a-doos again in my life.

Thanks for the tip on central PA.

[Cosmocat]

16. State College ...

Penn State ... Smack dab in the middle of the state, a great little town with everything you would want in town from a "box store" and chain restaurant perspective, but also a lot of great local restaurants and the culture that comes along with having one of the biggest universities in the country ... The Bryce Jordan Center is a decent sized arena for a rural area and you get top acts that come into State College all the time ...

You are close enough to be able to make a 4 hour or so run to NYC, a 3 hour run to DC, Philly or Pittsburgh ... Harrisburg and Hershey are 1 1/2 hour away ... NJ coasts are 3 or 4 hours, Delware and MD is about 4-5 hours ...

From any point in State College you are 10 minutes from country of some kind - flat out woods, some mountains, some valleys ... There are some semi-affluent areas around state college where you can get a small farmhouse if you look hard enough ... The area is renown for its fly fishing ...

The county itself is more "conservative" than not, but State College Boro is most definitely "liberal" and there is as much of a reasonable coexistence of the cats and dogs as you can get ... For Pa, the people are relaxed and friendly for the most part, but not too lax, people do things the right way ...

State College has been voted one of the top retirement areas in some of the national magazines over the course of the last 5-6 years - a real push to make it retiree friendly in trying to get the PSU grads who live, eat and breathe PSU to come back to the area to live out their days ...

I came up this way 15 years ago in my 30s and have not left, and likely will not ...

Just a great place ...

[OnionPatch]

17. I was wondering if it wasn't like that.

I traveled through the area years ago and like it and I'd heard some hints that it might be a good place to live. Most college areas are pretty liberal. If I have to drive into town to meet up with some like-minded people, that's cool. Thanks for letting me know. :thumbsup:

[Pat Riot]

18. if I may add my belated 2 cents

I'm from Lewistown, Mifflin County,about 30 miles SE of State College, the skinny county with the "al" of Central PA in it. (Thank you happyslug for your maps, this one and the other one on the thread about Murtha's district - I never realized how gerrymandered that thing was! I love maps and am interested in linguistics/ dialects also.) Anyway, have lived in Pittsburgh for 30 years now, and love it here. I have relatives in various places across the state,Mifflin, Juniata, Centre, York, Huntingdon, West Chester. And Allegheny, and Butler of course. I would agree with most of what people have said, such as avoid Mifflin and Juniata Counties - unless you truly love fly fishing that much! Sorry though happy, I would have to throw Huntingdon and probably Clearfield co's in with the red right wingnut warning zone. geez, some of them still have their McCain/Palin signs up, birthers, anti choice, the whole nine yards. Forgive me, I recently spent a week there and a weekend is really all I can take. State College, I wouldn't call it a hotbed of liberal activism, but I think it could be just OK as long as you stay pretty close to the actual downtown and campus; the outskirts of Centre Co. can be like their neighbors. Although it is, I think, the most beautiful area of the world.

The thing James Carville said keeps popping up in my mind, when he ran I think Wofford's campaign (yes I'm old), something like, "Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between." I think it's like that just because if you're artistic or gay or a genius, or liberal/liberated, or different in any way really, you get out of oppressive small towns and migrate to bigger cities, just because there's usually more openness to diversity, more tolerance and understanding, when more people have to live together.
Having said that, you could also end up living in the bluest of blue demographic areas but have a KKK wacko neighbor, or say, live near my heavily Republican home town, but have some beautiful Amish or Mennonite neighbors who want nothing but to live and let live in peace. So, maybe finding out about who your actual immediate neighbors are might be more important.

I think there might be a few small farms available in Allegheny County, try say the Pine-Richland area north of Pgh or say somewhere between Monroeville and Murraysville. I have an elderly in-law who is hanging on to a farm in Slickville, which I'm not even sure which county it's in. IMO Butler would be slightly better than Westmoreland or Fayette Co's as far as those bordering Allegheny. Uniontown, yuck, sorry, just my personal opinion, again.

Good luck with your search. If you end up near the Burgh, look me up.

[blue neen]

19. Slickville is in Westmoreland County.

Slickville and surrounding Salem Twp. are really beautiful areas. It's fairly conservative, politically speaking.

[Cosmocat]

20. Yep ...

if you happen to make your way up here, give me a shout out ...