Utah Governor Won't Back Tracking Bar Customers

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Utah Governor Won't Back Tracking Bar Customers
Utah's governor says government shouldn't keep a database that tracks state's bar visits
By BROCK VERGAKIS Associated Press Writer
SALT LAKE CITY February 4, 2009 (AP)

A proposal to create a statewide database to track patrons' visits to bars has come under fire, criticized because it would harm Utah's image at a time when it is increasingly seeking to boost tourism and modernize its liquor laws.

Gov. Jon Huntsman told The Associated Press in an interview Tuesday that he's in favor of scanning driver's licenses to keep minors out of bars, but he said government shouldn't get into the business of keeping tabs on who drinks and where.

He said doing so would make Utah, which already has some of the nation's strictest and quirkiest liquor laws, appear even more unfriendly to tourists.

"I think that would enhance the oddness of our laws," Huntsman said. "I think that for most people that is a rather frightening, almost Orwellian, proposition."


Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6801170

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[Judi Lynn]

1. This seems impossible. Is there someone here who can verify this?

From the original article:

Utah is the only state in the country that requires customers to fill out an application and pay a fee to enter a bar that serves liquor. Bars in Utah are open to the public, but they're still classified as private clubs and only members and sponsored guests may enter, even if it is just to use the restroom.

Simply unbelievable!

[Kriskips]

3. It was true when I lived there

You had to join a private club. The fee varied with the club. I joined for $10 for the year or something like that.

Updated: I lived there from 1990-1996.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Thanks, Kriskips. Welcome to D.U.!

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[jmowreader]

4. Part of it's not true

North Carolina also has the Private Club law, so Utah isn't the only one.

Bars are classified as "bars" or "restaurants" depending on how much food they sell. If (IIRC) more than 49 percent of a bar's income is from non-alcohol sales, they are a restaurant and anyone may enter. Less than that, and the bar is a Private Club that must sell memberships--minimum $5 membership fee, and you must wait three days to receive your card.

If you want to open a bar in this state, you're best to open it in a hotel...they count the revenue of the entire hotel when figuring out if you're a private club or not.

It could be worse, though...IIRC South Carolina still has the law that says in order to keep bartenders from ripping off the general public they are required to use an entire airline bottle of alcohol to make one drink. This has the added effect of cutting down sales of mixed drinks, since a drink with two shots of liquor in it is a bit hard to take.

[Dr.Phool]

8. I thought SC repealed the airline bottle rule.

In fact I know they did. I've been in several bars there that free poured. They were doing the transition from little bottle a couple of years ago.

[Judi Lynn]

9. Surprising these quirks aren't more well known outside the states. Kinda reminds one the roots

of a whole lot of repressive religious groups aren't that well concealed, after all. Looks as if they still have a lot of power. It's just not well known, or acknowledged throughout the country.

[mwb970]

13. It would be interesting to see a list of absurd local and state laws on this point.

I mean, I expect Utah to do insane things, as well as South Carolina; I would have thought NC might be sane, but I guess not.

Here in Columbus, I can't buy wine until 1 PM on Sunday because of some religious-nut law, but that's about the extent of it as far as I know.

Religious people certainly are concerned about other people's behavior, aren't they? Haven't they ever heard of MYOB? Personally, I am sick of them.

[jmowreader]

14. No, NC is not sane

Not only do we have the Sunday sales law (no sales of anything until noon Sunday--the joke is, you get out of church at 11, buy beer at 12 and make it home for the race at 1) and the private club law, we still have "dry" counties--no sales of liquor by the drink in many communities, and as far as I know you can't even buy packaged beer in Buies Creek. Buies Creek is the home of Campbell University, which is our version of Pensacola Christian College. (Mount Olive College is our version of BJU.)

[GentryDixon]

11. True.

During the Olympics you had show ID in order to get a wrist band enabling you to buy 3.2 beer at the various venues. No ID, no beer.

[nosferaustin]

12. It's true

And it keeps me limited to about two places that I go regularly, I see no need to pay up to $17 a year for the privilege of drinking in each place. I tend to lean toward the brew pubs now (which, believe it or not, Utah has some excellent brew pubs).

I'm glad that Huntsman is fighting this. The theocrats in the legislature are certifiably insane (well, some of them, the loudest ones.)

Welcome to the largest functioning Theocracy in the United States!

[OnyxCollie]

15. It wasn't true when I went there.

The last time was 2003, and it seemed like they lightened up a little bit. It was still weird, though. The pub I went into had a two-foot high metal divider that went down the length of the bar. I ordered a beer, the bartender poured it, and I reached over the divider to take it. The bartender said, "You're not from Utah, are you?" He then walked to the opening at the end of the bar and handed me my beer. He said that in Utah, alcohol must be kept in a room separate from the room where it is consumed. The metal divider "wall" down the bar constituted a "room".

When ordering a shot and a beer in a restaurant, the shot has to be consumed before the beer can be served. Can't have two drinks in front of you at the same time.

It's a pretty state. Too bad the Mormons screwed it up.

[mwb970]

17. Sounds like they are "keeping up appearances".

Winking at the law, using a juvenile workaround instead of passing a new law, pretending that the false is true - how Republican can you get?

[billyoc]

2. Utah tourism!

:rofl:

[jmowreader]

5. It's mostly in the winter. Great skiing.

[XemaSab]

6. We all know the real reason for this:

They want to keep track of which Mormons are drinking on the sly.

I've heard the secret Mormon police there is FOR REAL.

[byeya]

10. Rural SW Utah

I lived in far SW Utah for two years and there were no bars within 60 miles. You could get 3.2 beer in a restaurant and that was it.
Most non skiing tourism is centered on National Parks: Zion, Bryce, Cedar Breaks, Canyonlands, Arches, Capitol Reef, etc and the hunting in National Forests....horrible state except for the natural beauty

[SteelPenguin]

16. It's not just Red States

I forget the name of the town, but we went to a restaurant up in Northeast PA somewhere off Route 80 where I had to join a 'club' in order to get a beer with dinner.

[happyslug]

18. Until recently, PA FORBADE selling of beer on Sundays EXEMPT in Restaurants

And then classified Bars as either Restaurants (If food was the main thing sold on Sunday) or a Saloon, where food was NOT the main item. An exception existed for private clubs, which could also sell beer on Sunday. Now none of these places could sell alcohol to go on Sunday, but as one person told me years ago, do you really want people to buy alcohol who can NOT plan at least one day ahead? Thus he supported the ban on Sunday Sales, not for religious reasons but for the fact if you want families to be families, they have to have time together AND you can not have that if one or more member of that family is working when the other is off work. Now a complete shut down on one day a week is NOT possible (Emergency workers for example) but it is possible to max the number of people off work on Sunday (Or any other day of the week, as long as it is the SAME DAY, remember the issue is NOT religious, but getting family members to be together). It is a lot harder for family members to be together if they have separate days off work, picking one day to do so is the easiest way (Thus in Pennsylvania you can NOT hunt on Sunday, and some other restrictions that remain of the old Blue Laws, most are gone but some remain and I am one of those people who believe we need to bring them back).

As to bring the old Blue Laws back the best way to do so is NOT how it was done in the past (Legal bans on being open on Sundays) but just adopt a rule that anyone who works on Sundays (Or any other day of the week, if a different day is selected, but Sunday would be the best at present for it is the traditional day in Western Society) gets paid, on an hourly basis, as least two times the hourly minimum wage. To most emergency workers this will NOT be a pay increase, most are earning more then $14 an hour at present (on an annual basis, only $28,000 per year). Thus for people earning more then $14 an hour, they can work on Sunday all day long, they are getting sufficient pay for the work. My concern is low income workers, workers earning minimum wage or just over minimum wage. $7.15 per hour is NOT enough compensation for loss of the most convenient day to be with your family. Thus the best solution is a straight requirement that anyone working on Sunday MUST be paid double the minimum wage (I prefer a tripling but I do NOT see Congress or any state setting $21.45 per hour wage if you want to employ someone on Sunday).

Now, I tried to minimize religion in the above, for the simple reason it is against someone's religion to do X, does not make X solely a religious requirement (If that was the case, Murder and robbery would NOT be a criminal offense, it is against the ten Commandments in addition to the criminal statutes). Religion often embraces mechanisms that is for the good of its members AND society as a whole. This includes forbidding crimes like Murder and Robbery. In the case of Sunday Closings, we must look at those people with the lowest ability to negotiate their hour and wage of working. Sunday closings did this, in former days it just forbade work on Sunday (Except for emergencies AND activities one can do as a family). This was to get family members together so they can interact. This is important for any long term relationship. Long Term Relationship goes bad when the family members are just passing each other and end up doing "honey do" list for the other members of the family on one's days off (That is NOT a day of rest, but a day to get those projects done, again WITHOUT interacting with other family members).

My point is simple, we, as a society, need to build up inter-family relationships and that means trying to make sure as many people as possible get together as a family at least once a week. Sunday is the traditional day for such interaction so lets adopt laws that encourage such activities. The best way is to double or triple the minimum wage on Sunday, so that the only people who are working are the ones who MUST work AND have the economic power to demand time off with their families (i.e. those earning at least three times the minimum wage). The old fashioned no work at all Sunday is no longer workable, but a tripling of the minimum wage for any work done on Sunday is Workable.

The same rule can apply to alcohol, if a Bar wants to be open on Sundays I have no problem IF IT IS PAYING ITS EMPLOYEES AT LEAST TRIPE THE MINIMUM WAGE ON THAT DATE. Family owned establishments can still be open, for then you still have family interaction. The concern has to be trying to make it as easy as possible for low income families to interact and the above is the best way to do so. If every store closes down do to the high cost of employees that day, you still have six days a week to shop in that store. If you can so unable to plan ahead for just one day a week, do we, as a society, really want you drinking?, We may have to accept it, but you will have to accept the fact you can NOT plan for yourself so how can you plan to interact with your family? I am sorry, but the Blue Laws served a purpose, people who wanted to make Sunday like any other day of the week (i.e. a time to shop and buy) found the Blue Laws in they way, but so did Murders found the laws against Murder in they way. Both sets of laws serve a purpose, the laws against murders to minimize the murders in our society, the Blue Laws to minimize the number of people who have little or no interaction with the members of their families.