Canada's high court allows Sikh daggers in school

[deadparrot]

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Multiculturalism and religious freedom trumped safety concerns in a Canadian Supreme Court decision on Thursday that will allow orthodox Sikh students to carry traditional daggers to school.

In its decision, the court noted that Sikh orthodoxy requires the wearing of the daggers, known as kirpans, even though they are banned from airplanes and some courtrooms.

"Religious tolerance is a very important value of Canadian society," Justice Louise Charron wrote in reasons for the decision after a court case that involved 12-year-old Gurbaj Singh Multani, who was prevented from carrying his kirpan at a Montreal school.

"If some students consider it unfair that Gurbaj Singh may wear his kirpan to school while they are not allowed to have knives in their possession, it is incumbent on the schools to discharge their obligation to instill in their students this value that is ... at the very foundation of our democracy."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060302/india_nm/india239031

[Spazito]

1. It was a unanimous decision as well, 8 - 0

I am glad this has finally been decided at the highest level and can be put to rest.

[HEyHEY]

2. This is wrong.... and shouldn't be allowed

I don't give a shit about religious freedom when it comes to the point of bringing weapons to school.

[Spazito]

3. Well then, ban all scissors, pens, etc, as they can do as much

damage as a kirpan can do. I don't have a position one way or the other, to be honest but am glad the court has finally settled this once and for all.

There has not been ONE incident of a kirpan being used as a weapon in school whereas one cannot say that about everyday items like scissors, etc.

[HEyHEY]

4. Still, the ruling does two things

One, it discriminates, now only certain groups of people are permitted to bring a weapon to school.
Two, it places religious belief above public safety. Just because there has never been an incident, that doesn't mean there will never be one.

As well, you say why not ban scissors and pens... well, if that's the case then why aren't students allowed to bring knives to school?

[SixStrings]

5. For what it's worth, I agree with you 100%. Don't expect to find

much sympathy for these views here though..You'll be labelled a 'racist'or 'bigot' in no time.

[Spazito]

6. Because the kirpan is directly tied to the religious belief of

those who carry them and knives are not. It seems the kirpan is not looked upon as a weapon whereas knives and guns are. The Supreme Court case was brought on the question of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and tenets in it regarding religion. It was not a case of the right to carry weapons in school.

If the kirpan is ever used as a weapon in a school, I would assume there would be legislation or something that would then classify it as a weapon and then it, too, would be challenged all the way to the Supreme Court.

It really wasn't a big deal to me which way the Supreme Court was going to go on this except for an interest on their argument bringing forth their decision.

[HEyHEY]

7. But, what makes religious belief more important than any thing else?

What if I want to carry a knife for self defence? What makes that belief less worthy than religion?

[Spazito]

8. The Charter does, that is the difference.

Under section 2 of the Charter, Canadians are free to follow the religion of their choice.


Here is a key section of the ruling rendered by the Supreme Court:

The analogy with the duty of reasonable accommodation is helpful to explain the burden resulting from the minimal impairment test with respect to an individual. In the circumstances of the instant case, the decision to establish an absolute prohibition against wearing a kirpan does not fall within a range of reasonable alternatives. The arguments in support of such a prohibition must fail. The risk of G using his kirpan for violent purposes or of another student taking it away from him is very low, especially if the kirpan is worn under conditions such as were imposed by the Superior Court. It should be added that G has never claimed a right to wear his kirpan to school without restrictions. Furthermore, there are many objects in schools that could be used to commit violent acts and that are much more easily obtained by students, such as scissors, pencils and baseball bats. The evidence also reveals that not a single violent incident related to the presence of kirpans in schools has been reported. Although it is not necessary to wait for harm to be done before acting, the existence of concerns relating to safety must be unequivocally established for the infringement of a constitutional right to be justified. Nor does the evidence support the argument that allowing G to wear his kirpan to school could have a ripple effect. Lastly, the argument that the wearing of kirpans should be prohibited because the kirpan is a symbol of violence and because it sends the message that using force is necessary to assert rights and resolve conflict is not only contradicted by the evidence regarding the symbolic nature of the kirpan, but is also disrespectful to believers in the Sikh religion and does not take into account Canadian values based on multiculturalism. Religious tolerance is a very important value of Canadian society. If some students consider it unfair that G may wear his kirpan to school while they are not allowed to have knives in their possession, it is incumbent on the schools to discharge their obligation to instil in their students this value that is at the very foundation of our democracy. A total prohibition against wearing a kirpan to school undermines the value of this religious symbol and sends students the message that some religious practices do not merit the same protection as others. Accommodating G and allowing him to wear his kirpan under certain conditions demonstrates the importance that our society attaches to protecting freedom of religion and to showing respect for its minorities. The deleterious effects of a total prohibition thus outweigh its salutary effects.

http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2006scc006.wpd.html

The student was, at one point, allowed to carry his kirpan under certain conditions such as in a sheath and under his clothing. He had agreed to these restrictions and the ruling by the Supreme Court reinstating the right made mention of those restrictions:

"The risk of G using his kirpan for violent purposes or of another student taking it away from him is very low, especially if the kirpan is worn under conditions such as were imposed by the Superior Court. It should be added that G has never claimed a right to wear his kirpan to school without restrictions."

[ClusterFreak]

9. I can't agree.

The court's argument that there is a 'low risk' of another student taking the kirpan away from the boy, and comparing a kirpan as an offensive weapon to a pencil....is simply ridiculous. If he wasn't wearing a kirpan, there'd be 'no' risk. Additionally, if someone is determined to stab someone AND they are given the option between using a dagger and a pencil, I'm guessing they'll pick a dagger every time. A pencil, a pair of scissors, and a baseball bat are three items which were made to facilitate written communication, cut into paper, cloth, etc., and for playing baseball. Yes, they can be used to cause injury or worse to another living being. So can a car, an iron, a disposable lighter, a snow shovel...you get my meaning. A kirpan - a dagger - has one intended function: to cut human or animal flesh. What other function does it have?

Anyway, my two cents...

[CHIMO]

10. Stop Thinking

Like a crusader.

Read the decision.

They said that the person was a dedicated religious believer and there was no risk. The decision is based on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Because cops carry guns, and I could take it, they shouldn't carry guns?

What is the Charter worth, if every possible piece of what could be, is brought to bear against what it outlines as the objective.

[ClusterFreak]

11. I read it.

So what if they say the person was a dedicated religious believer? What does that mean? Lots of people commit violent acts who are dedicated religious believers. Pencils, scissors, baseball bats....all perfectly acceptable in our society. So are cops carrying guns. What's your point?

It is a frickin' dagger. There's nothing more to be said. It is what it is.

on edit: And let's just say this person never uses their dagger for any malicious purpose. That's just one person. What if the next person does? Well, that's okay....because at least we protected their right to religious expression or what-the-fuck-ever.

[CHIMO]

15. That Is Your Interpretation

What I read is that they said there was no evidence that he wanted to use the device for malicious purposes. They said that the Charter states that we should not discriminate against religion.

Are you saying that your definition of what is dangerous in the hands of who you decide are capable of using said device are items that could be dangerous and are not allowed. Stop and think a minute.
If every possible device can be used for nefarious purpose then one has to give up.

Now on to the other points.
There are a lot of chemicals in a school chemical lab that are dangerous. Why are they there? Who has allowed them there? Are they only there because nobody could have ever thought about that?

Your point has no end if we start down that path and then there is no Charter.

[ClusterFreak]

18. B.S.

You continue to miss my point. Repeatedly. So I'll repeat it: pencils, scissors, baseball bats, cops with guns, school chemical labs....are ALL acceptable. No one denies that. I also decide that *I* shouldn't be allowed to carry a dagger....neither should anyone in my family or any of my friends. People, we, all of us collectively as people, as Canadians, should not be allowed to walk around packing a dagger!! I realize the judges made a decision based on law and our rights and freedoms. But somewhere in there, the judges walked away from common sense. People should not carry daggers. I don't need someone to be stabbed by another person with a dagger, before I come to the conclusion that carrying a dagger is a bad thing.

[CHIMO]

19. Nice To

Know that you decide what is acceptable and common sense.

I don't think that I have missed your point. But who decides what is acceptable?

What I see in the decision is that there was no intent nor any previous indication of intent of injury. Granted that the device has the capability of injury in the right hands. But I would point out that the chemicals in a lab have a lot more potential for injury in the right hands. For that matter a lot of household chemicals have the same potential. Do you realize that a barbecue propane container has enough power to blow out a whole block! So who is keeping people away from those things? Or who is keeping them out of my neighbours yard? Or maybe it is because we just haven't recognized it as a danger. So why aren't you on the trail to get rid of barbecues. Now what about natural gas or propane powered vehicles?

[ClusterFreak]

21. Going around in circles here.

Peace.;(

[GirlinContempt]

12. "What other function does it have? "

Together with the fork and spoon, the knife has been a common eating utensil in the Western world since at least the Middle Ages

Indoor use
The main indoor use of knives is as piece of cutlery or as kitchen knife in various forms, including:
A bread knife is a special knife with a longer, serrated blade especially designed for easily cutting all types of bread. The blade is straight with a blunt end. The serrations (teeth) allow it to cut bread using less vertical force, so keeping the bread from being compressed. They also leave fewer crumbs than most other knives.
A boning knife is used for deboning meat, poultry, and fish.
For other kinds of kitchen knives, see the main article: kitchen knife.
A palette knife is used by artists for tasks such as mixing and applying paint, and in cooking for spreading icing (in the U.S. this knife is referred to as a frosting spatula). Some palette knives have a serrated edge on one side.
For whittling (artistic wood carving) a blade as short as 25mm (1 inch) is common.
An electrician's knife is specially insulated to decrease the chance of shock.
A scalpel is a medical knife, used to perform surgery. It is one of the sharpest knives available.
Custom-made knives called microtomes are used to cut specimens for microscopy. The sharpest knives ever constructed are probably the ultramicrotomes with diamond edges used to slice samples for electron microscopes.

Outdoor use
A hunting knife is normally used to dress large game. It is often a normal, mild curve or a curved and clipped blade.
A stockman's knife is a very versatile folding knife with three blades: a clip, a spey and a normal. It is one of the most popular folding knives ever made.
A dive knife or diver's knife is adapted for underwater use. Dacor dive knives have tough thermal plastic handles, durable sheaths, and a convenient push-button release, for example.
Utility, or multi-tool knives may contain several blades, as well as other tools such as pliers. Examples include Leatherman, SOG, Gerber, Wenger and Victorinox (The "Swiss Army knife") tools.
A kukri is a Nepalese fighting and utility knife with a deep forward curve.

Machete bladeA machete is a long wide blade, used to chop through brush. This tool (larger than most knives, smaller than a sword) depends more on weight than a razor edge for its cutting power.
A parang, bolo or golok is a knife very similar to a machete but heavier and with a blade designed to move the center of gravity further from the hand for increased chopping power in woodier vegetation.
A survival knife is a sturdy knife, sometimes with a hollow handle filled with equipment. In the best hollow-handled knives, both blade and handle are cut from a single piece of steel. The end usually has an O-ring seal to keep water out of the handle. Often a small compass is set in the inside, protected part of the pommel/cap. The pommel may be adapted to pounding or chipping. Recommended equipment for the handle: a compass (usually in the pommel). Monofilament line (for snares, fishing), 12 feet of black nylon thread and two needles, a couple of plastic ties, two barbed and one unbarbed fishhook (unbarbed doubles as a suture needle), butterfly bandages, halizone tablets, waterproof matches.
Special purpose blades may not be made of metal. Plastic, wood and ceramic knives exist. In most applications, these relatively fragile knives are used to avoid easy detection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife#Function

[ClusterFreak]

14. Good for you, you copy and paste very well....

...and I also admire your hyperlink work. Nice touch.

I'll tell you what, as long as he **promises** to only cut bread, whittle, or dress large game....he can wear the kirpan, okay???

I never realized how wrong-headed I was on this until I read your illuminating post. Sunshines, rainbows, lollipops, daggers...it's all the same thing.

[GirlinContempt]

20. You're being silly, I hope it's intentional.

You asked what other function it had.

[ClusterFreak]

22. Listen, you gave me the wikipedia history of knives....

...you gotta expect something more in return other than just, "Ohhh...so THAT'S what else you can do with a knife! Good to know!" Sarcasm on my part no doubt, but come on....

[GirlinContempt]

13. "The word kirpan has the literal meaning of weapon of defence, as opposed

to the talwar, the weapon of offence."

"It is required that all Baptised Sikhs wear the kirpan at all times. To Sikhs, it is a highly important religious symbol; it is rarely used as a weapon."

"It was first established as a principle that one must fight for peace. A Sikh should never use the Kirpan in anger or for a malicious attack. However, a Sikh may use it in self-defence or to protect a person in need. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan


http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/Religions/paths/Kirpan.html

[ClusterFreak]

16. What's in a name?

A defensive kirpan or an offensive talwar, by any other name, is still a dagger.

Gimme a break. My right to send my child to school where I can be sure other kids aren't legally packing daggers, or numchuks, or pistols, or brass knuckles, supercedes anyone else's right to 'religious expression'. Period.

[glarius]

24. This law allowing kirpans is setting a dangerous precedent.

"However, a Sikh may use it in self-defence or to protect a person in need." That is a rather ominous statement. There is bound to be someone who will use this dagger (that's what it is, by any name) in self defence, or what he perceives as self defence, in school. I agree with Chimpy's_L_S that common sense must prevail. A citizen's freedom to practice their religion must be modified by existing practices that we have all lived by. Why couldn't a replica rubber kirpan be used?

[Spazito]

25. The material from which the kirpan is composed is part of the importance

of the kirpan as noted by the Supreme Court so substitute material would not be seen as adhering to the strictures of their belief.

Some interesting tidbits about this case I ran across while researching this issue:

May 17, 2002:
Quebec Superior Court Justice Danielle Grenier rules that because the kirpan is an integral part of his religious beliefs, Gurbaj can wear a real one to school as long as he follows several conditions. The kirpan must be sheathed in a wooden case, wrapped in heavy fabric and worn under his clothes. The belt holding the kirpan must also be sewn into his clothing.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kirpan/

Those same restrictions were recognized by the Supreme Court as being reasonable so those same conditions apply to the right to carry the kirpan in schools. They seem to be common sense precautions to me.

And this:

Five Sikh articles of faith


(The 5 Kakaars)
Kesh means uncut hair. For Sikhs, the hair is a symbol of faith, and keeping long hair confirms a Sikh's belief in the acceptance of God's will, and teaches him humility and acceptance.

Kangha is a comb. Sikhs use a small wooden comb in the hair at all times. Apart from its practical utility, a comb is clearly a symbol of cleanliness.

Karra is a bracelet. A special steel bracelet is worn on a Sikh's right wrist that signifies a bond. It's the Guru's symbolic ring to all his Sikhs, signifying their unbreakable link or bond with the Guru as well as among themselves. The circle is also a symbol of restraint and in practice a constant reminder to the Sikh of ideal behaviour in a moment of weakness.

Kachera is shorts. This special pair of knee-length shorts is symbolic of continence and a high moral character. Kaccha can be worn on their own without causing embarrassment.

Kirpan is a sword. Kirpan comes from the words kirpa and aan. Kirpa means an act of kindness, a favour; and aan means honour, respect, self-respect. It is an instrument that adds to self-respect and self-defence. Thus for Sikhs, kirpan is the symbol of power and freedom of spirit. All baptized Sikhs should wear a short form of kirpan on their body. To call it a dagger or knife is rather insulting to this article of faith, which functions quite differently from the other two.


http://www.cbc.ca/montreal/story/qc-kirpan20060301.html

Edited to correct a grammatical error.

[tuvor]

17. I presume Sikh kids in India get to take their daggers to school.

Thousands of daggers on hips all over the place--What's the rate of kirpan attacks over there?

It's fine to say "When in Rome...," but when you invite the Romans into your country to stay, you kind of have to expect to make a few accommodations.

[HuffleClaw]

23. nice to see it was a unanimous decision

religious freedom is religious freedom. i remember carrying a swiss army knife in school and never once being told it was forbidden, but a RELIGIOUS knife is? clearly a case of discrimination and rightly seen so by the court.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wabbajack]

27. "Iff some

students consider it unfair that Gurbaj Singh may wear his kirpan to school while they are not allowed to have knives in their possession......"

It is. Same rules for everyone is the foundation of my democracy.

[tuvor]

28. "Same rules for everyone" means anyone who wants to carry a kirpan...

...must also convert to Sikhism.

Sounds fair to me.

[LeftistGorilla]

29. I might the only one here who has been to high school....

within the last couple of years...

and all I gotta say about this...

Is that any type of weapon in a highschool....
especially in Toronto...


IS A VERY BAD IDEA....