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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 06:36 PM
Original message
June 9 - Is The Day
Top court to rule on medicare test case

Ottawa — Canada's high court rules Thursday on whether Canadians can sidestep waiting lists by paying for faster medical care.

Legal experts said Wednesday they could not predict whether the Supreme Court of Canada will defend single-tier medicare or allow a cash-for-care alternative.

Other provinces have similar laws to prevent a patient from paying to get faster treatment. If the case is successful the laws all would fall, and Canada could be forced into a two-tier health system.

“If the court were to grant the appellants' claim it would be huge,” said Martha Jackman, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Ottawa. “It really would be the commodification of health care.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050608.wmedic0608/BNStory/National/

Fingers crossed.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like bribery to me.
"Faster" treatment of one means DELAYED treatment of others. In the event of medical triage, could the illicit priority given to a "can wait" patient result in the death of several critical patients who might otherwise survive?
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You sure about that?
Edited on Wed Jun-08-05 09:23 PM by tuvor
If one pays to be fast-tracked through a completely separate tier, it means he's opted out of the regular tier. Everyone behind him gets treated that much sooner.

If they can afford it, they'll get it done regardless of where. The USA, Europe, wherever. Might as well get them to spend their money here at home.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If that happens we will be into privatized healthcare in no time
where those who have the bucks can go to the head of the line and those who are poor will have the leftovers. NO thanks. EVERYONE should be entitled to the same care, regardless of their economic status.

If someone wants to go to another country, fine, let them spend their dollars there but we should not change our system here to accommodate those who would like to break our current system.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I need to see a plausible scenario before I can buy that.
Edited on Wed Jun-08-05 10:04 PM by tuvor
I'm talking about two separate and parallel tiers, one of which is privately funded, the other one public. That means two completely separate lines, that no one can jump to the head of. In such a two-tier system, everyone is, and would still be, "entitled to the same health care"--the public system.

As long as the latter doesn't suffer by virtue of the former, I have no problem with someone spending their own money as they wish. However, if you can explain how the "poor will have the leftovers" and how "we will be into privatized health care in no time" under a system with two completely independent tiers, I'm open to changing my mind.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. When a private,for-profit system can afford to buy state-of-the-art
medical technology because the rich in Canada can pay the bills while our public system, which most Canadians would use, must husband it's tax dollars and doesn't have ready access to the same technology, it is NOT the same health care.

Your take is the same take the for-profit privateers from the US use to try and take down our system. It equates to 'separate but equal', imo.

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That argument presumes that a private company can always afford
state-of-the-art, and that the public system never could.

But private companies sometimes have trouble turning profits, and sometimes governments are fiscally responsible enough to be able to afford state-of-the-art.

Hmm. Canada can't be the first to consider a two-tiered system. Does anyone know of a country that has successfully managed with such a system? (Get someone else to do your R&D, that's what I always say.)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You can be sure there will be VERY big bucks put into a
private business as there are many who wish to completely do away with universal healthcare in order to change our system to one that reflects the US for-profit system.

LOL re having someone else to do your homework, it sure won't be me as my position is to maintain the principles of universal healthcare, that of: Services based on need and not on the ability to pay and a two-tier system erodes that principle.

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Who are these "many" you speak of?
I appreciate your points, but I'm not seeing evidence. I'm not necessarily doubting that these businesses exist, but I want to see evidence about them and their motives before I believe.

What can I say? As I get older, I get more pragmatic.

(BTW, when I mentioned having someone else do your R&D, I was talking about getting another country to make the mistakes (Research and Development) so we could avoid making the same ones--I wasn't talking about getting someone to do my "homework". Just want to be clear.)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Ahhh, lol, thanks for the clarification re R & D
as to evidence on who may wish to change our system to a for-profit system, one needs only to look at HMOs in the US and their costs and profit margins.

Here is another interesting consequence of turning to privatized medicare:


Ominously, once Canada embraces privatization it will be very costly for it to reverse course. According to the provisions of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), if Canada privatizes any part of its health system it must handsomely compensate U.S. (or Mexican) companies if it decides later to end this practice.

http://www.newrules.org/journal/nrwin01health.html



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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That's a long read, but I managed a quick skim.
Surprised to find this: "Alberta has taken this reality a step further with its recent passage of Bill 11. The legislation allows care at private, overnight surgery clinics to be covered by provincial medicare insurance. It also allows doctors to work in both public and private systems."

That's NOT the two-tiered system I had in mind!

I'll bookmark it, too, for future reference.

Thanks, Spazito.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. that is extreeeemely important

It is even argued at present that a province like Ontario could not *add* dental or prescription coverage to the existing public plan, because those services are already subject to NAFTA.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Perhaps
You could define what is meant by two "completely separate" tiers.

Thanks
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No overlap whatsoever.
Like two tracks that never meet. In effect, what we have right now, for example, if a Canadian wishes to spend his money on a medical procedure in another country.

(Not like what we're apparently seeing in Alberta. (See post #12))

My point is basically that it's going to happen regardless. Can't we do it in a way that doesn't take money out of the country and still guarantee that everyone gets reasonably decent public health care?
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. So As
I understand the idea there would be a parallel system.

Say that at any time 25% of the population will be using this private system. Then the public system will be left to tend to the remaining 75% of the cases.

Thus we will now be reducing our efficiency in the public system, as the costs have not gone down while the cases have dropped to 75%. I can just see the shouting and screaming about all the inefficiencies in the public system then.

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. A parallel system, yes, but I'm not sure I'm understanding you.
If, as in your example, the public system has to tend to 25% fewer cases (while still receiving the same amount of tax dollars--everyone would still be paying into the public system if two-tier has any hope of success, IMO), that would that free up that much more money, not to mention time.

On that simplistic level, it sounds like win-win to me.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I Thought
That I was describing your system. As I had asked for a definition and I was expanding on what you had left out of your definition.

Please correct any errors or omissions that I have assumed was part of your definition.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Just two entities, as completely separate as possible.
All Canadians pay into the public system.

If you wish to spend your own money, you may pay the premium for the private track.

Can this be done without degrading public care? I think we're a smart enough country that it's possible. (Is it probable? That's another question.)

That's the gist of it, anyway.

Turning in now.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Sorry
I don't buy assumptions.

It either works or it doesn't work!

I have heard enough of politicians and others asking me to trust them.

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Huh?
I just tried to more clearly define my impression of a potentially successful two-tiered health care system, just as you asked. I'm not aware of making any assumptions in that post, let alone trying to get you to buy any.

As for "it either works or it doesn't work" I completely agree. You'll note I asked elsewhere in this thread if any other countries have successfully worked with such a system.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I Was
Responding to your statement that you thought that we are smart enough to make it work.

I treat that as an assumption.

I have been trying to walk through the details as you see the two systems working, beyond the motherhood statements that we all run into from the politicians and others.

The devil usually turns out to be in the details. That's all.

If one thinks through how the system should work then we all can examine things. If we leave it to the politicians then we know they will take the easiest route.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. LOL Gotcha
Sorry to have missed that.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. Simpson's Paradox
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 11:15 PM by CHIMO
Things are not always what they appear to be.

Simpson's Paradox
http://exploringdata.cqu.edu.au/sim_par.htm

Simpson's Paradox
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/paradox-simpson/
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. simplistic is what that is
First, where do you imagine that the resources to be used by the private tier will come from? They will materialize out of thin air? Doctors and nurses and technologists and technicians will emerge from the caves they've been hiding out in, to take on paying clients?

There are limits to the human and material and financial resources available for medical care. New resources do not magically appear to serve clients outside the public system. Those resources are deducted from the public system. They are no longer available to the public system.

Yes, the profit motive might indeed result in a new MRI or two here and there. But come on, think about it.

If someone is paying for his/her own MRI services out of pocket, exactly how long do you think s/he is going to want to continue to pay for other people's MRI services via taxes?

Collectively, how long are people who are paying for private insurance that guarantees they will be able to have MRIs (or any other little medical thing their heart desires) on 2 minutes' notice be wanting to continue paying taxes so that other people can have those services "for free"?

All you have to do is look at the UK's NHS in the 80s for the answer. I did, from the ER of an NHS hospital in a low-income neighbourhood in North London. No thank you.

If someone in the UK who "goes private" can get a service in a matter of days that people using the NHS must wait days or months for ... really, is it not obvious that the public system waiting periods are going to get longer by virtue of private payers jumping to the head of the queue?

That IS what they're doing. The doctors providing the services are, if not the same individual doctors (i.e. doctors who provide both public and private services), drawn from the same finite pool of doctors. So the private payers are obtaining the services based on ability to pay, not based on urgency of need, while people in the public system whose need is more urgent are shoved aside. There really is only *one* queue; the private system simply allows some people to butt in.


If, as in your example, the public system has to tend to 25% fewer cases (while still receiving the same amount of tax dollars--everyone would still be paying into the public system if two-tier has any hope of success, IMO), that would that free up that much more money, not to mention time.

So, the main rebuttals to that are:

(1) To imagine that the public system would keep receiving the same amount of tax dollars, while the rich -- who, remember, already support the public system disproportionately -- contentedly go pay for their own medical services elsewhere is just contrary to all reasonable expectations of human behaviour.

(2) Resources are not "freed up", because there are none to be freed up; either resources would be drained from the public system or new resources would have to be added.

If new resources are going to have to be added, and the rich are going to be paying for them, why not just increase public (tax) funding to the public system to alleviate any shortages that exist?

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. I'm not arguing for a two-tier system.
I'm wondering whether it's possible.

Thanks for your input.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. well ...
I was responding to things you actually said.

Like (emphasis added):

As long as the latter <public system> doesn't suffer by virtue of the former <private system>, I have no problem with someone spending their own money as they wish. However, if you can explain how the "poor will have the leftovers" and how "we will be into privatized health care in no time" under a system with two completely independent tiers, I'm open to changing my mind.

And that ("explain") what I was doing. So how are you doing on the other ("changing my mind")?

You're the one who said "changing your mind", so if you weren't "arguing for a two-tier system", you were at least stating your support for it.

I demonstrated how the public system can more than reasonably be expected to suffer if a parallel private system is put in place -- and even offered you an example, as you had also asked for, of a country where that has been done, whose system I have personally experienced, and which I would fight tooth and nail not to have established here.

I explained how the poor (and not just the poor) will have the leftovers, and how the public system simply will not be able to continue providing decent levels of service if a parallel private system is established (and I can explain that in more detail if you like -- or, at this point, I imagine that reading the minority reasons in the SCC decision will do the trick).

If you're indeed "open to changing your mind", maybe you have some more questions or concerns that need addressing so that you can consider whether your present position needs changing?

"Thanks for your input."

Oh, any time. I *am* arguing *for* the present system, and I just always assume that people who hold a different position actually do want to know why people who disagree with them hold theirs. I know I do.

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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. What if we try a different system?
I was listening to discussions on talk radio in the car today that claimed that France, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, and other European countries have what they called successful two-tiered systems. (They sure didn't mention the UK as a model to follow!)

BTW, sorry for lack of a reasonable response this morning. Frankly I'm just not very reasonable--or responsive--first thing in the a.m.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Geez, will have my fingers and toes crossed as well...
This is definitely worrisome:

She said she was puzzled that the Supreme Court would even agree to hear the case after it was struck down by two Quebec courts. The year-long delay in rendering a verdict has added to the suspense.

“Clearly, it means the court is struggling,” said Ms. Maioni.


Seeing as the case is based on the Charter of Rights, it will be interesting indeed. I wonder which clause of the Charter the claimants have appealed under?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. ask me anything
I have read all of the lower court judgments in this case (which were against Zeliotis and Chaoulli), and the submissions of the principal parties in the SCC case.

Yes, it's impossible to predict what the Court will say.

The claim is that Quebec's ban on private insurance for health care violates the Charter guarantee of the right to life. (If one of the appellants needed an air ambulance to be rushed to hospital to save his life, and the govt machine were not available, he could not afford to pay a private one, and would need to have the private insurance coverage in place to pay for it.)

If the Court found that the legislation does violate that right, it could then rule that the violation was justified under s. 1 of the Charter (demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society).

The case actually involves a particular aspect of Quebec law, the private insurance aspect, and might not even apply to some other provinces' legislation. One would hope that the Court's decision will be sufficiently strong and categorical that it will preclude any other challenges to other aspects of the single-public-payer health system.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Hi
Question for you. After you have the time to review things, what would the situation be if the Federal and Provincial governments agreed on acceptable wait times for treatment in the public system for various diagnosis. Would the Quebec charter appear to be in violation then?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. lemme get back to you!

The phones are ringing, and that's a kind of separate and very complex question.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. ... or let someone else do the talking ;)
I just ran across this interesting article:
http://www.cpsa-acsp.ca/papers-2005/Manfredi.pdf
(stick the url in google's search box if you hate pdf)

Very long, haven't read it all yet, probably never will. ;) I'll reproduce the first and last two paragraphs. (They're long, so I'm breaking them up a bit.)

Litigating Innovation:
Health Care Policy and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms


Christopher P. Manfredi
Antonia Maioni
Department of Political Science
McGill University
Prepared for delivery at the 2005 Annual Meeting of the Canadian Political Science Association, London, ON, 1-4 June, 2005.

Is legal mobilization an effective instrument for policy innovation?

This paper seeks to examine this question by studying the use of rights-based litigation in the context of publicly-funded health care. By focusing on a non-American case, the paper seeks to bring the techniques of comparative public law to understand the relationship among litigation, legal rules and social policy.

In an ideal world, legal mobilization would succeed in establishing new legal rules desired by a social movement; those desired legal rules would generate positive policy consequences; and success would strengthen the movement.

In the real world, however, these phenomena are often mutually exclusive. Legal mobilization may fail to establish desired legal rules, but positive policy consequences follow anyway; desired rules may emerge from the legal process, but have no impact on policy or social conditions; unsuccessful legal mobilization may nevertheless strengthen a movement by energizing members around particular causes; by contrast, successful mobilization may enervate a movement or energize a counter-movement. In essence, either legal mobilization is a "hollow hope" (Rosenberg 1991), or rights work as an instrument for shifting policy debate and empowering weaker groups (McCann 1994).

The use of rights-based litigation by advocates of health care policy reform in Canada provides a useful focus for evaluating these two possible scenarios for at least three reasons.

First, health care is the single most important area of Canadian public policy. The delivery and financing of health care services is governed by the Canada Health Act, which requires that provinces provide equal access to publicly administered, comprehensive, universal, and portable health care coverage. Health care consumes about nine percent of GDP and is the largest single expenditure item in provincial budgets.

Second, rights-based litigation is becoming an increasingly common
phenomenon in the development of health care policy (Jackman 1995; Jackman 1995/96; Braen 2002; Jackman 2002; Greschner 2002; Manfredi & Maioni 2002). Key areas already litigated under the Canadian Charter include physician supply management, medical practice regulation, hospital restructuring, and the regulation and provision of specific treatment and services.

Finally, in June 2004 the Supreme Court of Canada heard oral arguments in two cases with potentially profound consequences for health care policy. The policy objective of the litigation in one case is to restrict the scope of public health care provision by challenging the constitutionality of legal prohibitions against the private provision of health care. By contrast, the objective of the litigation in the other case is to extend the range of funded services by establishing a constitutional obligation for provinces to fund a autism treatment as part of their health care policy.

These two cases -- Chaouilli v. Attorney-General of Quebec (prohibition against private provision) and Attorney-General of British Columbia v. Auton (autism) -- provide the substantive focus for our paper. Although both cases involve health care policy, they differ in two important ways. The Chaoulli case involves an individual litigant and seeks to restrict the scope of the public health care system. The Auton case involves a well-organized social movement seeking to extend the system's coverage. Both cases are nevertheless part of a growing trend toward litigating health care policy reform.

...

What are the broader implications of litigating health care reform? In the specific case of autism treatment, the combination of Auton and the Ontario decisions suggest a number of possible consequences, none of which are intended or desirable.

First, given that there is no constitutional obligation to fund ABA or EIBT, but that there may be a constitutional obligation to fund treatment indefinitely once programs are in place, current autism litigation may have a chilling effect on provincial innovation.

Second, the current state of the law in Ontario may provide an incentive for parents whose children have any kind of learning difficulty to encourage autism diagnoses in order to access these programs. Finally, as increased demand meets the reality of finite resources -- in the form of money and qualified therapists -- treatment waiting lists will lengthen. In each of these scenarios, the provincial response will undoubtedly generate even more litigation.

More generally, both Chaoulli and Auton are products of frustration with the inability of apparently unresponsive health care decision makers to provide a desired level of service. Although the desire of Canadians, frustrated by perceived bureaucratic and legislative inaction, to seek health care solutions from the courts is understandable, the benefits and costs of this path to policy change merit closer attention. The obvious benefit is that, when litigation is successful, courts may be able to order governments to act quickly and forcefully. Yet litigation is not without disadvantages.

First, the articulation of policy demands in the form of constitutional rights can exclude alternative policy choices from consideration. Rights-based litigation aims at altering policy priorities in an especially powerful way because of the difficulty of reversing, or even modifying, the priorities set through it. In this sense, health care litigation may, in some circumstances, be understood as a sophisticated form of queue jumping because it posits that a particular health care need deserves a higher priority than it has because of its grounding in a constitutional right.

Second, the adversarial nature of litigation is best suited to resolving concrete disputes between two parties by imposing retrospective remedies. Complex policy issues -- like health care -- involve multiple stakeholders, constantly changing facts and evidence, and predictive assessments about the future impact of decisions.

Finally, rights-based litigation, particularly at the Supreme Court level, by definition imposes national solutions on inherently local problems. These solutions can ignore differences among provinces and suppress the provincial experimentation necessary to find innovative approaches to policy problems. Canadian health care faces a multitude of complex challenges, which requires careful consideration of the contribution that courts can make in meeting those challenges before embracing litigation as an instrument of reform in health care policy.


So.

I think those comments are relevant to your question -- about the possibility of setting "acceptable wait times for treatment in the public system for various diagnoses".

I'd have to ask: for what purpose? Not being stroppy, just not entirely sure what you meant.

If you meant that violating a waiting-time guideline would have somewhat the same effect as excluding a medically necessary service, i.e. would result in the province losing funding -- maybe not a bad idea, in my off the cuff opinion.

If you meant that such guidelines would be somehow enforceable by individuals, whether by suing for a service or by being permitted to go private, say, then I'd say that's a bad idea.

I don't like the idea of hamstringing governments -- "balanced budget" laws, as in some US states, are another example. We elect governments to govern. If we don't like how they do it, we get to throw them out and pick a government that we think will do the job better. I would never want to see this kind of manifestation of the great USAmerican pastime of hating and distrusting government start emerging here.

I think that this kind of thing is precisely the kind of policy issue that we elect governments to deal with. I agree with the dissenting judges -- this is not something for the courts to decide. The paper quoted above gives some further explanation of why it's a bad idea to ask the courts to decide it.

In the case of same-sex marriage, to take an example where I think litigation *is* appropriate, there simply is no policy issue. Permitting same-sex marriage isn't going to cost the govt a few billion dollars, or advantage one group of Canadians over another, or create some kind of global warming effect that will change life as we know it. It really is a matter of individual rights, and equal protection and benefit.

How the govt spends the kind of money involved in health care is not. It is a collective issue, and an extremely complex one. In a social democracy, how individuals access basic necessities, where the resources to provide them are essentially finite no matter who pays for them, is a matter for public decision, not just private choice. It just isn't the same thing as who gets to get married.

I'm a little flummoxed by which judges were on which side. MacLachlin, yeah, she's an individuals-rights-ist. Lebel and Binnie on the side of the angels though? And Bastarache, the defender of all rights collective (when it comes to francophone minority language rights, anyhow), voting to strike down? Where were Louise Arbour and maybe Claire L'Heureux-Dubé when we needed them ...

I really wish I could give you an English version of the Quebec Court of Appeal decision in the Zeliotis/Chaoulli case:
http://www.canlii.org/qc/jug/qcca/2002/2002qcca10171.html
but I can't. Or even better, the Superior Court decision that preceded it, which doesn't even seem to be on line in the original. Those judgments do an excellent review of the issues and the submissions by the defenders of the system, and the evidence they presented.

I can't even find the factum of the Charter Committee on Poverty Issues on line. ...

Okay, here's the AG Canada's factum:
http://www.healthcoalition.ca/int-8.pdf
Very good to read; references WHO studies, all sorts of stuff.

55. Advocating a "new universalism" that makes the state the central player in the organization and funding of health services, the WHO expressed the following reservations about private health care systems:
"The findings also lead away from market-oriented approaches that ration health services to those with the ability to pay. Not only do market-oriented approaches lead to intolerable inequity with respect to a fundamental human right, but growing bodies of theory and evidence indicate markets in health to be inefficient as well. ... Health is an important component of national welfare. Achieving high health outcomes requires a combination of universal entitlement and tight control over expenditure. This report advocates a 'new universalism' that recognizes governments' limits but retains government responsibility for leadership, regulation and finance of health systems."

56. Studies carried out by the OECD take a similar view and point up the risk to fair access to health services posed by health care models that draw on private funding.

57. Ideally, the state would provide services to everyone, but current world economic conditions are such that states are unable to deliver the full spectrum of services. That is why no industrialized country has a fully public health care system.
(It makes the point that Canada *already* has private delivery of medical services, since not all services are covered by the public plan.)

The issue is always going to be how to allocate scarce resources. Requiring that they be allocated according to priorities set as a matter of public policy is one way. Permitting individuals to self-allocate by purchasing on the market is another.

If we really do believe that health care is a "public good", that everyone is as entitled to basic health care as they are to a basic education, for instance, then we just don't start permitting self-allocation by those with the money to do it.

btw, the fact that we do do this with education just wouldn't counter that idea: the resources for delivering education are nowhere near as scarce, expensive, as the resources for delivering health care. And the effects on an individual (many more of whom would be likely to suffer those effects in the case of health care) if the public system were not able to deliver would almost never be nearly as devastating, either financially if the service had to be purchased or in terms of the actual effect of not getting a particular service. At present, permitting basic education to be purchased privately does not subtract from the public system. But note that there are demands to be entitled to withdraw from the public system not just physically, but financially too: "vouchers". And I'd expect exactly that in the health care system -- attempts by the opted out to withdraw their financial support for the system -- with far more negative effects foreseeable.

Bottom line: if one buys the argument that prohibiting private insurance is an unjustified violation, then it wouldn't likely matter how many federal-provincial agreements about waiting times or anything else there were. If one individual claimed that s/he needed assurance that if s/he is run down by a bus, the air ambulance will be there in 5 minutes, and the public plan (obviously) couldn't provide that assurance, the individual would have a rights-violation claim.

Next up (and I'm not really joking): claims that because the police can't be there to protect you when somebody tries to rob you on the street, it is a violation of the right to life to prohibit you from carrying a pistol around in your pants.

That really is where we go when we start saying that governments -- we -- are not entitled to make policy designed to achieve the best outcomes on an aggregate basis, and have to provide guarantees to each individual who wants them or let the individual take the matter into his/her own hands, no matter who will foreseeably (even if s/he cannot be identified this instant) suffer as a result.

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Thanks
I will have to re-read the article a few time to collect the ideas.

My thoughts were, that if there were agreed wait times then the argument would be whether the wait time is appropriate in which case it most likely would not have even been considered by the court.

Additionally my thoughts at the time of writing were that the provincial governments have been all to happy to increase the wait times to the point of breaking. Encouraging these types of cases to come forward.

As much as I would prefer not to have a litigious environment we may now need to use it to prod the governments to get moving. The voters would now have to decide whether we really want the system, as a government can not keep saying well "we are doing the best we can with the resources we have". The command now becomes do better to meet some standard. My thoughts were that maybe they have given us the hammer to use on the politicians.

Since my last post I came across the following.

A sacred cow no more
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_mann/20050609.html

Thanks for the time you have taken on this.
Greatly appreciated.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. interesting
From that viewpoint at CBC:

What of the government argument that creating a private insurance system allows the wealthy access to medical services while draining physicians from the public system, creating second-class public care?

Clearly, we must think little of our doctors if we assume that none would be interested in servicing a public system, assuming that the best would, like rats from a sinking ship, turn to for-profit care, with little regard for the wellbeing of their fellow citizens.

Good grief, did she even bother to read the list of interveners in the case??

... Canadian Medical Association and Canadian Orthopaedic Association, ... Cambie Surgeries Corp., False Creek Surgical Centre Inc., Delbrook Surgical Centre Inc., Okanagan Plastic Surgery Centre Inc., Specialty MRI Clinics Inc., Fraser Valley MRI Ltd., Image One MRI Clinic Inc., McCallum Surgical Centre Ltd., 4111044 Canada Inc., South Fraser Surgical Centre Inc., Victoria Surgery Ltd., Kamloops Surgery Centre Ltd., Valley Cosmetic Surgery Associates Inc., Surgical Centres Inc., British Columbia Orthopaedic Association and British Columbia Anesthesiologists Society
(I edited out the Cdn Labour Congress, Charter Committee on Poverty Issues and Cdn Health Coalition.) Deserting rats are exactly what comes to mind. Or did she imagine that they were all there pleading for the survival of the public system?

I'd already happened on this earlier today (and it's also worth reading to see the extent to which we *do* have a parallel private system already, partly as a result of structural problems in the public plan and partly as a result simply of greed and profiteering through loopholes):

http://www.charterhealth.ca/news/2004apr8a.html

All Canadians will one day again enjoy the right to buy any kind of medical care anytime they want or feel the need to do so. That, at least, is what Dr. Brian Day, an orthopedic surgeon in Vancouver, thinks will happen.

And he thinks that day could come in the very near future.

Dr. Day, president and CEO of the privately run Cambie Surgery Centre in Vancouver, is headed to the Supreme Court of Canada to fight for private medicine.
Looks to me like they can hardly wait to desert.

Let's not lose sight of who Zeliotis and Chaoulli are. In the original Quebec Superior Court decision, the judge quoted Chaoulli (I have access to the decision, and will translate for us):

"In his submission, Marxist-Leninist principles led to the egalitarian ideology that we see today, and to the context in which the Health Insurance Act was enacted."

He's not a nice country doctor looking out for his patients, or even his own pocketbook. He's a right-wing ideologue zealot.

What the director of the geriatrics department at Jewish General Hospital in Montréal had to say about that:

"when a public system like ours is characterized as being like the systems in the former communist bloc, it is an outrageous caricature".

Ah ... combining ideas:
http://www.tommydouglas.ca/articles/articles-june04.htm
(a June 2004 Globe article by Kirk Makin)

His cause is supported by a group of private clinics in Vancouver that have added a wrinkle of their own: a "guarantee of timely treatment" to the Canada Health Act.
Sounds warm and fuzzy. Except if we look back to Dr. Day had to say up there, it just doesn't sound like that's what they were really up to.

And I have to say ... if those people want it, it already stinks. ;)

No problem with the time -- I've been waiting for this decision with bated breath for a couple of years now, and trying to figure it out now that it's here is something I'll be doing for a while, and don't mind doing out loud. ;)


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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
25. Unconstitutional to prevent private care in Que.: top court
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled Thursday that it's unconstitutional for the Quebec government to prevent people from paying for private medical care.

While the court said the policy violates the Quebec charter, they ruled it does not violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, meaning there is no immediate impact on the Canadian health care system as a whole.

The plaintiffs – a Montreal patient and a doctor – wanted the court to strike down sections of the Quebec Hospital Insurance Act that prevent people from buying health insurance for medical procedures covered by the public health plan.

The two men had separate complaints, but the court decided to hear their court challenges together.

more

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/09/newscoc-health050609.html


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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. the sky has fallen - link to judgment
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 09:22 AM by iverglas
I found the news release right after posting here. Can't find the damned reasons on line yet.

29272 Jacques Chaoulli et George Zeliotis c. Procureur général du Québec et Procureur général du Canada - et - Procureur général de l'Ontario, et al. (Qc)

2005 SCC 35 / 2005 CSC 35

Coram: La juge en chef McLachlin et les juges Major, Bastarache, Binnie, LeBel, Deschamps et Fish


... The appeal from the judgments of the Court of Appeal of Quebec (Montreal), Numbers 500-09-009431-008 and 500-09-009432-006, dated April 22, 2002, heard on June 8, 2004 is allowed with costs throughout. Binnie, LeBel and Fish JJ. are dissenting.
I have to say I'm surprised at who the dissenters (the ones supporting the Quebec legislation) were.


If ever there was a good case for the first federal use of the notwithstanding clause, this is it.

Aha, it's there at LexUM now:

http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2005scc035.wpd.html

for anybody who wants to read the reasons.

This is where the Canadian tradition of parliamentary supremacy *should* be followed. This *is* a matter of public policy that it is not for the courts to decide. In my humble opinion.

I will have to read the whole decision later today; got some work to do now.


edit: oops, I failed to notice that a majority said that the legislation does *not* violate the Canadian Charter (3 dissenting judges, 3 judges concurring in the result). It violates the Quebec Charter (with 1 judge saying it also violates the Canadian Charter).


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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. a couple of excerpts

From the 3 minority judges (who found that the legislation did not violate either Charter) -- from the headnote (summary):

The Quebec health plan shares the policy objectives of the Canada Health Act, and the means adopted by Quebec to implement these objectives are not arbitrary. In principle, Quebec wants a health system where access is governed by need rather than wealth or status. To accomplish this objective, Quebec seeks to discourage the growth of private sector delivery of “insured” services based on wealth and insurability. The prohibition is thus rationally connected to Quebec’s objective and is not inconsistent with it. In practical terms, Quebec bases the prohibition on the view that private insurance, and a consequent major expansion of private health services, would have a harmful effect on the public system.

The view of the evidence taken by the trial judge supports that belief. She found that the expansion of private health care would undoubtedly have a negative impact on the public health system. The evidence indicates that a parallel private system will not reduce, and may worsen, the public waiting lists and will likely result in a decrease in government funding for the public system. In light of these findings, it cannot be said that the prohibition against private health insurance “bears no relation to, or is inconsistent with” the preservation of a health system predominantly based on need rather than wealth or status. Prohibition of private insurance is not “inconsistent” with the State interest; still less is it “unrelated” to it. People are free to dispute Quebec’s strategy, but it cannot be said that the province’s version of a single-tier health system, and the prohibition on private health insurance designed to protect that system, is a legislative choice that has been adopted “arbitrarily” by the Quebec National Assembly as that term has been understood to date in the Canadian Charter jurisprudence.
Count me with them.



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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Me too!
This is exactly what will happen unless the Federal Government steps in:

"The evidence indicates that a parallel private system will not reduce, and may worsen, the public waiting lists and will likely result in a decrease in government funding for the public system."
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SixStrings Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Who's fault is this?

Can we blame the 'hidden agenda' guy for this? Please? Maybe it's Mike Harris' fault.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Actually, the petitioner's case was funded by those who
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 11:13 AM by Spazito
wish to do away with Canada's universal healthcare system so, given the faux Con's support of privatization of healthcare, one could give some blame to the 'hidden agenda' party.


Edited to correct typo and add this comment from the OP article:

Dr. Jackman represented pro-medicare groups when arguments in the case were heard last year. She said she believes much of the pressure to strike down the rules for medicare comes from health-care companies that want new market opportunities.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. you thought that was a serious question, right? ;)
The list of interveners (parties granted standing as having an interest in the outcome and being in a position to make a useful contribution to argument of the case):

Attorney General of Ontario, Attorney General of
New Brunswick, Attorney General for Saskatchewan,
Augustin Roy, Senator Michael Kirby, Senator Marjory Lebreton,
Senator Catherine Callbeck, Senator Joan Cook, Senator Jane Cordy,
Senator Joyce Fairbairn, Senator Wilbert Keon, Senator Lucie Pépin,
Senator Brenda Robertson and Senator Douglas Roche, Canadian
Medical Association and Canadian Orthopaedic Association,
Canadian Labour Congress, Charter Committee on Poverty Issues
and Canadian Health Coalition, Cambie Surgeries Corp., False
Creek Surgical Centre Inc., Delbrook Surgical Centre Inc.,
Okanagan Plastic Surgery Centre Inc., Specialty MRI Clinics Inc.,
Fraser Valley MRI Ltd., Image One MRI Clinic Inc., McCallum
Surgical Centre Ltd., 4111044 Canada Inc., South Fraser Surgical
Centre Inc., Victoria Surgery Ltd., Kamloops Surgery Centre Ltd.,
Valley Cosmetic Surgery Associates Inc., Surgical Centres Inc.,
British Columbia Orthopaedic Association and British Columbia
Anesthesiologists Society

Not hard to tell who's who, and where their interests lie.

Michael Kirby is the senator who produced a proposal a while back for reform of the system. As I recall, he failed to disclose his personal interests ... yeah, here we go: http://www.healthcoalition.ca/kirby.html

The Ottawa Citizen & National Post
(September 10, 2004)

Senator traded in health firm as he wrote report on Medicare
By Glen McGregor

OTTAWA - Liberal Senator Michael Kirby made a series of stock trades in a private healthcare company shortly before releasing a report that recommended increasing competition in Canada's health system.

In three transactions in August, Mr. Kirby exercised 4,000 stock options in Extendicare, the Markham, Ont.-based firm where he sits on the board of directors. Mr. Kirby sold his subordinate voting shares at prices ranging from $15.41 to $15.45, after optioning them at $2.60. In June, Mr. Kirby also exercised options on another 4,000 shares, netting a total of $100,300 on the trades. He continues to hold stock and options with a gross value of $1.17-million.

Last week, Mr. Kirby and Senator Wilbert Keon released the report they co-authored for the Institute for Research in Public Policy that said health care needs more competition to stay efficient. They argued against the "monopolistic stranglehold" that they say the public sector exerts.

Gee. Who would have imagined that people who profit from private health-care delivery would oppose that public sector stranglehold? Right-wing conspiracy? What right-wing conspiracy?

And Wilbert Keon. The guy who inspired that joke about the difference between doctors and god. God doesn't think he's a doctor.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Thanks, iverglas, for the list, I wasn't able to find it although I
have to admit I didn't spend a lot of time looking. It certainly is a 'neutral' body of interveners for sure, lol.

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Joel Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Good
Now I'm one step closer to avoiding a flight to India if I need surgery.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. LOL, don't rule out India just yet...
the ruling affects only Quebec and their Charter of Rights not any other provinces, the Canada Health Act or the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

This is, however, a heads-up warning to the federal government to get it's act together and reduce waiting times and that is not a bad thing.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. it also only affects *insurance*

The case was about the prohibition on buying private insurance, not about buying health care itself privately.

Chaoulli's beef was that he couldn't afford to buy health care itself privately, and should therefore be able to buy insurance privately to cover the health care he couldn't get from the provincial plan.

Human rights – Right to life and to personal inviolability – Waiting times in public health system – Provincial legislation prohibiting Quebec residents from taking out insurance to obtain in private sector health care services already available under Quebec’s public health care plan – Prohibition depriving Quebec residents of access to private health care services not coming with waiting times inherent in public system – Whether prohibition infringing rights to life and to personal inviolability guaranteed by s. 1 of Charter of human rights and freedoms – If so, whether infringement can be justified under s. 9.1 of Charter – Charter of human rights and freedoms, R.S.Q., c. C-12, ss. 1, 9.1 – Health Insurance Act, R.S.Q., c. A-29, s. 15 – Hospital Insurance Act, R.S.Q., c. A-28, s. 11.

Constitutional law – Charter of Rights – Right to life, liberty and security of person – Fundamental justice – Waiting times in public health system – Provincial legislation prohibiting Quebec residents from taking out insurance to obtain in private sector health care services already available under Quebec’s public health care plan – Prohibition depriving Quebec residents of private health care services not coming with waiting times inherent in public system – Whether prohibition constituting deprivation of rights to life, liberty and security of person guaranteed by s. 7 of Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and, if so, whether deprivation in accordance with principles of fundamental justice – If there violation, whether it can be justified under s. 1 of Charter – Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, ss. 1, 7 – Health Insurance Act, R.S.Q., c. A-29, s. 15 – Hospital Insurance Act, R.S.Q., c. A-28, s. 11.

Believe me (I've been having to read the decisions and arguments in the case for a couple of years, in great detail), it's not easy to figure out the facts and issues in the case. I don't think the CBC got it all quite right.

Here's the url for the decision again:
http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2005scc035.wpd.html
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. Legal Talking Guy? Just wondering...
Can this decision be used to force 'service on demand' on a whole host of government and, perhaps private things, deemed to be essential to 'life, liberty and security of person'?

Chaoulli's 'wait' while painful and inconvenient wasn't life-threatening, but more a 'quality of life' issue (he cited drug addiction among other things?!?). Is there a lot of wiggle room here for interpretation to cite for other cases? Did the dissenting opinion notice this potential battle field?

Just wondering...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. you mean like this?
Edited on Fri Jun-10-05 02:32 PM by iverglas
This was at the bottom of my very long post 29, so no wonder if somebody missed it. ;) I'd said:

Next up (and I'm not really joking): claims that because the police can't be there to protect you when somebody tries to rob you on the street, it is a violation of the right to life to prohibit you from carrying a pistol around in your pants.

That really is where we go when we start saying that governments -- we -- are not entitled to make policy designed to achieve the best outcomes on an aggregate basis, and have to provide guarantees to each individual who wants them or let the individual take the matter into his/her own hands, no matter who will foreseeably (even if s/he cannot be identified this instant) suffer as a result.
The idea that since the state cannot *guarantee* that you'll get the outcome you want, you have the right to disregard everything the state does in its (presumably sincere) efforts to ensure that everybody gets as much of what they need as possible ... and in fact to undercut the state's efforts by draining off the resources that are needed and thus reducing the chances that someone who genuinely needs something *more* than you do won't get it -- or by doing things that you claim reduce your own risks but that more than arguably increase other people's.

If multiple people pay privately to get a hip replacement in 2 weeks, even though they could perfectly well wait 3 months, then very likely somebody else in greater need is just going to have to wait. There just is not an infinite supply of human and material resources.

If multiple people carry a pistol around in their pants in case someone tries to mug them, then very likely someone doing that is going to harm someone else who should not have been harmed.

People who want to carry pistols around can make exactly the same argument as Zeliotis made ... and if you visit the gun dungeon here, you'll find them doing it on an hourly basis. The right to tote a gun around in public is part of the right to life, because if you don't have a pistol in your pants you might get killed. Just like without an air ambulance a phone call away you might die.

Canada ain't the US. And policy decisions like these are not the purview of the courts. Says I, an otherwise great admirer of the Charter and the courts that interpret it, on the whole. I'm with the dissenters.

From the headnote version of the dissenting reasons (re the Cdn Charter):

Canadian Charter interests under s. 7 are enumerated as life, liberty and security of the person. The trial judge found that the current state of the Quebec health system, linked to the prohibition against health insurance for insured services, is capable, at least in the cases of some individuals on some occasions, of putting at risk their life or security of the person. The courts can use s. 7 of the Canadian Charter to pre-empt the ongoing public debate only if the current health plan violates an established “principle of fundamental justice”. That is not the case here.

The public policy objective of “health care to a reasonable standard within a reasonable time” is not a legal principle of fundamental justice. There is no “societal consensus” about what this non-legal standard means or how to achieve it. It will be very difficult for those designing and implementing a health plan to predict when judges will think its provisions cross the line from what is “reasonable” into the forbidden territory of what is “unreasonable”.

A deprivation of a right will be arbitrary, and will thus infringe s. 7, if it bears no relation to, or is inconsistent with, the state interest that lies behind the legislation. Quebec’s legislative objective is to provide high-quality health care, at a reasonable cost, for as many people as possible in a manner that is consistent with principles of efficiency, equity and fiscal responsibility. An overbuilt health system is no more in the larger public interest than a system that on occasion falls short.

The Quebec health plan shares the policy objectives of the Canada Health Act, and the means adopted by Quebec to implement these objectives are not arbitrary. In principle, Quebec wants a health system where access is governed by need rather than wealth or status. To accomplish this objective, Quebec seeks to discourage the growth of private sector delivery of “insured” services based on wealth and insurability. The prohibition is thus rationally connected to Quebec’s objective and is not inconsistent with it. In practical terms, Quebec bases the prohibition on the view that private insurance, and a consequent major expansion of private health services, would have a harmful effect on the public system.

The view of the evidence taken by the trial judge supports that belief. She found that the expansion of private health care would undoubtedly have a negative impact on the public health system. The evidence indicates that a parallel private system will not reduce, and may worsen, the public waiting lists and will likely result in a decrease in government funding for the public system. In light of these findings, it cannot be said that the prohibition against private health insurance “bears no relation to, or is inconsistent with” the preservation of a health system predominantly based on need rather than wealth or status. Prohibition of private insurance is not “inconsistent” with the State interest; still less is it “unrelated” to it. People are free to dispute Quebec’s strategy, but it cannot be said that the province’s version of a single-tier health system, and the prohibition on private health insurance designed to protect that system, is a legislative choice that has been adopted “arbitrarily” by the Quebec National Assembly as that term has been understood to date in the Canadian Charter jurisprudence.

Where it seems to me that the Quebec Charter is a dog's breakfast is that it just states

1. Every human being has a right to life, and to personal security, inviolability and freedom.

9.1. In exercising his fundamental freedoms and rights, a person shall maintain a proper regard for democratic values, public order and the general well-being of the citizens of Québec.

In this respect, the scope of the freedoms and rights, and limits to their exercise, may be fixed by law.

54. The Charter binds the State.
Well, what do you do with that? Every human being has a right to life. Does this mean that the Quebec government may not, for instance, not interfere with people who steal food because they have no money and are hungry? Every human being has a right to liberty. What, the Quebec government may not imprison murderers?

The US constitution says:

No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; ...
The Canadian constitution says:

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.
How can a law that says that people have the right to life even *mean* anything? That's not a law, that's scripture!

So to your question ...

Can this decision be used to force 'service on demand' on a whole host of government and, perhaps private things, deemed to be essential to 'life, liberty and security of person'?

I'd say that it does indeed look as if:

- if the govt undertakes to provide something and doesn't do it to your satisfaction, and this results in some inconvenience to you, you can just go ahead and do it yourself. Maybe I could just drive onto the city expressway wherever I like, because the nearest on ramp is just too damned far away ... and if I'm late to work, I'll get fired, and that will cause me hunger and emotional distress.

- if the govt makes any law that could conceivably result in your being unable to do something you think you might need to do in future and contend that harm might come to you if you don't do, you can just go ahead and do it. Like carrying a gun around all the time because of the possibility that someday, somewhere, you might (in your opinion) need it to defend yourself against a homicidal maniac.

The gun nuts up here tend not to be too bright, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them pick up on this before too long.


T

edit -- oops, that was a stray T. I'm not actually a T. ;)
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Superb...and THX
I copied and cut your posts--good stuff.

Jeez imagine wheezing through Jeffery Simpsons cover column in the Glob today and being provided with less insight than a fellow citizen ;-)

I was listening to a commentator/legal professor that made the point that in his estimation, the dissenting judges, were far more coherent than the majority opinion. I see that you quoted extensively the dissenting judges and this would bear out the fellow's perspective. In fact, this professor seemed almost nuisanced in that he thought something was 'not on the level' with the majority--perhaps a real case of an 'activist judicial' system?

Oh yeah...I did catch your point at the end of your 'long post' and that's what made me flash on whether there could be an limitations. Good to see someone else, with much greater expertise, sees this potential...

Good stuff
:yourock:
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Joel Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yeah
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 11:59 AM by Joel
But it comforts me so much to know that Martin is now close to getting screwed by the ghost of two Liberal Prime Ministers.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
46. Well, this will be interesting to see what happens
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