Same Sex Vote in Parliament Tonight

[justinsb]

The Liberals have limited debate to 8 more hours. For those of you in the states
keep an eye on cbc.ca/news tonight and tommorow morning - it's a sure thing it's going to pass, but it will still be a nice headline to read! :grouphug:

P.S. Same sex marriage will likely become legal across Canada while Bush is speaking and the DSM is being discussed on the floor of Congress.

[getmeouttahere]

1. So Harper's "legitimacy" whining...

was a pathetic last ditch effort to stop the vote?

[justinsb]

2. Not really

he knew he couldn't stop the vote. It was just a last bit of whining to show how opposed he was to it. On the news last night every station was pointing out that he was making deals with the Bloc just last month. Harper and the Conservatives are hard to take seriously.

[getmeouttahere]

3. Ah, pandering to his "base", kind of like....

what Bush does with the religious right, on a smaller scale?

[justinsb]

4. Something like that

the problem is he always panders to his base, and his base is very small - he loses points with everyone else every time he panders to his base. So, in all his statements are a good thing because they reduce the chance that there will ever be a conservative government here.

[getmeouttahere]

5. That's perfect....

brilliant strategy on Harper's part...NOT!!!

[justinsb]

6. Oh..it gets even better

There has never been a majority government in Canada without substantial support in Quebec, almost 1/4 of Canada lives there. In the last election the conservatives failed to take a single seat there and only came close in 1 case. Harper has just essentially said that the results of tonights vote will be illigitimate because Qubecers votes are (or should be) worth less than everyone else's. It would be like a presidential candidate in the US - actually more like an entire party in the US, telling California, Florida, Ohio AND New York that they could all f*ck off.

[Spazito]

7. I absolutely LOVE Harper's total lack of political skills!

He has, in one full swoop, alienated the French, the 60-some % of Canadians who support same-sex marriage legislation and, I suspect, a growing number of his own party members who see his constant mis-steps costing them votes.


I can only hope he continues with his humongous 'tin ear' pronouncements.

[Joel]

12. I think I figured out Harpers end game last night

The fact that I'm the resident evil conservative lurker and I just figured out my own party's end game last night should say enough about our state of affairs to warrant a couple of chuckles and validate some of the points made already, but I digress.

Right now French Quebec hates the Liberal party. No way around it; the big red machine in Quebec is going to get bitch slapped the next few elections whenever they come. For all intents and purposes the NDP doesn't exist there. The only other Federalist Party out there is the CPC and we have a shot in maybe 3 seats. Our dear leader made that harder.

In two years odds are the PQ will win and we'll be on the road to referendum. The liberals will be in a minority because for all his failures as a Prime Minister, Paul Martin can campaign.

I see the yes side winning because nobody with any pull is left for the liberals to put in front of Quebecers to appeal. Martins negatives are to high, Chrétien is damaged goods, Trudeau has passed. Even if PMPM gets us on side we have don’t have anybody either. Mulroney is ailing and his network is dead, hell half our network left with Bouchard anyway.

So Quebec is gone. Alberta just got bigger. By this time Harper is gone. I’ve resigned myself to the fact he doesn’t want to be Prime Minister and I don’t think he ever has or will. I do think he wants a Conservative government. I just don’t think he necessarily wants to lead it.

He still retains party elder status and with no Quebec ridings to put McKay or Lord over the top one of his people becomes party leader. My money is on Solberg, but that’s more gut than anything. The following election the Conservatives can’t lose even if Randy White tattooed ‘gays are evil’ on Dick Cheney’s forehead and marched him through every town in Ontario.

Harper gets his Conservative government and he doesn’t even have to be Prime Minister. It’s all very Machiavellian, I know, but Harper is MUCH smarter than his recent follies would indicate so the only conclusion I had left to draw was he wanted something other than the PMO.

[Spazito]

14. LOL, I don't think so,,,,

Harper AND the faux Cons are losing support in Ontario and British Columbia, key provinces they would need to win anything. The bottom line was, is and will remain, Canadians do NOT trust the Reform/Alliance/New Conservative party and if it morphs into something else again, there will STILL be no trust by the majority of Canadians.

I see the real Conservatives ala Joe Clark leaving the faux Con party and reviving a party with the conservative principles that Canadians accepted, before Mulroney subverted them. Until that happens the Liberals will retain, at the very least a minority government, until the NDP reaches the level as being seen as an alternative party that can govern and that is growing albeit slowly.

[Joel]

17. After a referendum loss

Do you really think a party could retain government after a referendum loss? How could any party survive the tag of being at the wheel when Canada is destroyed?

Joe Clark is done in politics and he took the dissenters that didn't go to the liberals into retirement with him.

[justinsb]

18. You've missed something

Justin Trudeau has gone from saying "Never" and "no way" when asked about running for office. Now he says things like "You never know" with a smile that says he knows very well.

Meet the soon to be face of the Liberal Party in Quebec and Paul Martin's likely successor

[Joel]

20. how fast do you see him taking power?

When the liberals win in January do you see any chance Martin gets the boot? (a serious question, I don't have connections in the LPC for obvious reasons.) Does Trudeau have the network from beyond the obvious support he'll get from the youth wing? And can it all happen before 2008? I don't doubt he could do well as a major player I just can't see him coming out of nowhere so fast.

[justinsb]

21. I don't have connections to the LPC either

this just seems like the obvious move, and given his popularity with everyone I've talked to from the liberals, in every age group as well as a great many NDP and Green supporters I think that once he has a seat Martin will be essentially a lame duck.

I've heard him speak before, he is incredibly well informed and eloquent for his age and if he becomes PM he could be very, very hard to unseat.

[nikraye]

8. Is there a Canadian website that will be streaming this historic vote?

Is there a Canadian version of C-Span? If so, I'd appreciate a link.

Thanks!!!


Go Canada!!!

[Spazito]

9. That would be CPAC, it's our CSPAN

unfortunately I could only find a link to audio stream not video, here is the link to CPAC:

http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&template_id=46&lang=e

On the left hand side is a 'watch now' link, click on it. I hope it helps. There may be live video stream from another site but I haven't found it as yet.

Edited to add: It looks like it IS video stream, wow, I didn't know CPAC offered that, I am glad you asked the question!

[nikraye]

11. THANK YOU!!!! n/t

[iverglas]

10. go here

Canada's Political Channel.

http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&template_id=46&lang=e

In the upper right, "watch cpac now", click "English" for windows media streaming video.

The audio portion you get will be in English when the language being spoken in the House is English, and the interpreter's voice when the language being spoken is French.

CPAC's server upgraded its capacity a lot back when demand was high during the Gomery inquiry,
http://www1.magma.ca/aboutmagma/pressreleases/2005-02-15.cfm
so there shouldn't be any trouble getting in.

Thanks for the idea -- I think I might post this elsewhere here where people might be interested.

[nikraye]

13. Thank you, and great idea to spread the link....

I'm sure others would be interested.

We GLBT yanks have to find encouragement and a sense of victory, even if vicariously, outside our own nation's boundaries. I'll be listening/watching the debate as well as the vote.

Thanks again.

[iverglas]

16. welcome! debate is on now

Funny personal note -- one of the interpreters you will hear is an old friend of mine, and is quite gay. ;)

My friend, besides being a really good interpreter, finds most things amusing, and will both be needing that quality and needing to keep it in check to interpret some of the things I'm hearing. I would imagine that maintaining one's impartial tone of voice and turn of phrase in this situation would tax even the most experienced and devoted member of the profession.

[iverglas]

24. I put it in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1588681&mesg_id=1588681

and I'm just going to keep kicking it. I think there are a lot of people at DU who would find it really really interesting, if they widened their gaze enough to notice that it's happening.

[CHIMO]

22. Thanks For The

Link. Have it going now.

[iverglas]

23. damn thing about cpac video on line

It seems to identify the MP speaking only briefly, shortly after s/he begins speaking. (And of course the Speaker just says "the hon member from ___".) I don't know enough of these folks by sight to know who the hell has the floor, so I'm trying to switch over to that window when I hear the floor going to someone new ...

[nikraye]

15. I love the Quebecian who's speaking on the floor right now n/t

[nikraye]

19. The guy who just finished....not the woman who is speaking now

[jim3775]

25. Goddamn Commuzzi

He sold us out so he could vote against the bill. He had a nice cabinet post and finally some pull to maybe bring some more money to Northwest Ontario, but same-sex couples not getting married is more important to him.

[iverglas]

26. and how about the goddamned Desjarlais?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050628.wsame0628/BNStory/National/

In total, 24 Liberals broke ranks with the government on the second-reading vote Monday. Junior minister Joe Comuzzi, responsible for economic development in Northern Ontario, abstained, defying a party order that all ministers support the bill. Five Bloc MPs and one NDP, Bev Desjarlais, also joined most Conservatives in opposing the legislation.

On Tuesday, Mr. Comuzzi resigned his cabinet post, chosing instead to sit as a Liberal backbencher, according to reports.

Ms. Desjarlais had been threatened with expulsion from the NDP caucus if she opposed the bill.

NDP spokesman Ian Capstick said NDP Leader Jack Layton was meeting caucus executives to decide what consequences would flow from Ms. Desjarlais's decision to vote against the party's position on the issue.

I hadn't been paying attention -- didn't realize there were the 5 Bloc cretins.

Jack was asked in the House today what he'd do about Desjarlais, and said that the vote hadn't happened yet and yada yada. If she's allowed by the whip to vote, and she votes against ... well, then one cuts off one's nose to spite one's face? It's not like we can actually afford to lose a seat, or like yet another independent in the House is going to be in the national public interest.

I'd say let her stay home for the vote, I guess. And then insist that she stay home.

[iverglas]

27. coward ...

Search her site
http://www.bevdesjarlais.ca/
for the word "marriage", and you won't find it.

You'd think that someone claiming to be acting on some sort of principle ... which one would assume she is ... would want to stand up and own it.

[CHIMO]

28. I Don't Have The Same

View on this.
In the case of the Liberal if he thinks that he can't support the bill, then he has to resign his cabinet position to do so. And he has done that. I don't agree with his vote. What belongs to Caesar is Caesar's. And it ends there.

As for the NDP member it is her choice. The party made the decision to support the bill or else. If she votes against the bill then she can sit as an independent. Again I don't agree with her vote.

I think that this should wake up some people as to the extent that the religious right are influencing these politicians. Hopefully it will be an election issue in the next election. Do we want the religious running government or elected people.

If some of those backing the dinosaur reactionary reflex get defeated in the soon to be election, then it could go far in getting this minority group out of the limelight and out of our hair.

[iverglas]

30. same view as ...

what? Not getting you (again). ;)

There are indeed the two separate issues.

Voting against the bill makes them scum.
Voting against the bill exposes them to intra-party repercussions.

But there's another one:

Voting against the bill damages their party.

I don't give a crap about the Liberal or his party, of course.

I am hopping mad about Desjarlais. That is *my* party, and she doesn't have any business highjacking her position in the House, as a member of *my* party's caucus, for her own personal ends. And the flip side is that she also has no business diminishing *my* party's standing (and betraying the people who elected her as a representative of that party) by forcing the party's hand so that she's expelled from caucus. The repercussions of her choice, if she is expelled as she certainly should be (as a matter of principle, which might have to be disregarded for practical considerations), are *not* felt just by her.

And I just emailed her and told her so.

*I* have devoted a significant segment of my lifetime waking hours to that party, and a fair bit of money (and foregone income) to its fortunes, and she just has no business taking *my* work to get the party where it is and using it for her own ends. It ISN'T "her choice". It's her usurpation of a whole lot of other people's choice and hard work, which she's simply turning to her own profit, i.e. for whatever benefit there may be to her in voting against, whether it's just to make her feel warm and fuzzy about standing up for her own bigoted nasty "principles" or pandering to constituents who share them. (Her seat is indisputably safe if she votes for the bill, btw.)

No matter what the party ends up doing about her if she votes against, she has hurt the party. And that's entirely apart from what she's trying to do to the country (with the fine luxury of knowing that she won't do it, of course).

That was one nasty email I wrote. ;)

[CHIMO]

31. Sorry About

Being ambiguous. Thought that I was being quite clear.

On the Liberal. If he can't support the bill, then he should resign. If his constituents support his view, then I would think that they should be supplied with the information about the nature of the vote. And I am quite sure that he then would not occupy his seat after the next election.

On the NDP. If she is taking that step then that is her choice. If she wants to stand alone in the next election then that is her choice. Her defeat would show something.

It is my opinion that these dinos coming out of the bushes are because of pressure from the religious right. The best way to knock this down is in the next election.

I don't think that her deserting the party stand will affect the party. Let her try and regain her seat in the next election. That will show the result of these minority pressure groups to influence things.

I can appreciate your frustration as someone who has worked to get those people to their present position. But there will always be those who are afraid to stand on principle and hopefully the next election will sift some of those out.

I for one, would not want to have you working against my election in a campaign. Hopefully she will listen to your advice before she votes.

[iverglas]

37. desjarlais

The witch was interviewed on CPAC after the vote, and offered nothing in her defence except her charming "personal beliefs". She struck me as rather ineffably stupid.

Her nomination is being contested. Let's hope she doesn't get it. I want her to be sifted out *before* the next election, because it's her, not the party, that deserves to go.

My advice to her? ;) Did I mention that I advised her to write sections 1 and 15 of the Charter on a blackboard many times?

[CHIMO]

39. Saw That Interview

As well. Got the impression, mind you it was just my sixth sense, that perhaps her backing in the party for nomination is composed of some of the group having a similar belief on SSM. It was only my take on the interview.

If it were, it would seem that the way to have someone else represent the party would be to obtain more members. I don't know the numbers from the last election but one thing I think they need consider is that in the next election the Liberals could campaign on SSM leaving the NDP and the CPC to battle out the rest as the reactionary group. Don't think that it would bring in an NDP win.
Might be one thing to use in obtaining an alternate candidate for the riding?

Just my thoughts.

[sonicx]

29. the con on right now is ridiculous...

Apparently, if gay people are allowed to marry, straight people can't anymore. :eyes:

[nikraye]

33. How many votes needed for bill to pass? n/t

[CHIMO]

34. A Simple

Majority. It has to go through three of these. This is the third vote.

[CHIMO]

35. Looks Like

It will be 150 to 120 in favour. Am amendment just went down to defeat. The actual vote is taking place now.

[nikraye]

32. The cons are rudest bunch of hecklers. What a bunch of delinquents

I can't believe these conservatives. Somebody turn a hose on them.

[achtung_circus]

36. Nah, the proceedings in the Commons always have

a certain je ne sais quoi, AKA heckling.

[iverglas]

38. what I miss

The advent of TV mikes (well, and cameras, since they all want to look on their best behaviour for the folks back home) has toned the whole thing down too much for me.

Desk-thumping. That's what's missing. Unfortunately, when people thump on their desks, it drowns out everything else over the audio system ...

Desk-thumping was a cornerstone of Cdn parliamentary democracy, damn it.