We and America are family, but God comes between us

[Mr Creosote]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/09/04/do0410.xml

"But that is precisely where America is now, a place where belief counts for more than demonstrated science, a place where the sitting President can give his endorsement to the teaching of "intelligent design" - a fig-leaf for creationism - alongside evolution, as two "theories" of equal persuasiveness. At stake, in what is shaping up to be a momentous kulturkampf, possibly the most momentous in modern American history, is not whether Americans should not be entitled to their own religious beliefs, but rather whether they should be licensed by official fiat to impose them in the schoolroom under the fraudulent guise of an alternative "science"."


I think the article sums it up rather nicely. I suspect most of our fellow Britons would be rather shocked at how very stupid public life in the US is becoming.

[muriel_volestrangler]

1. Yes, an interesting article

And it's always seemed a paradox to me that the US, with its individualism, should be such fertile ground for "trust me - I'm a preacher" megachurches, and the widespread automatic acceptance of whatever it says in a Bible written 2000 or more years ago. Myabe this paragraph has the key:

What we hadn't noticed, hadn't been told, or weren't of a mind to acknowledge, was the immense part played by pastors of the flocks - Irish Catholic priests, black Baptists, Jewish rabbis - in the transplantation process; keeping impoverished urban communities afloat in a country for the most part resistant to ideological socialism and organised unions. It was the power of the priesthood in fact which sustained that resistance; the churches and their web of charities which most effectively supplied welfare rather than a state which at best thought of itself as regulatory, almost never socially interventionist.

Strong churches are, perhaps, the alternative for Americans to a powerful government - no society is so individualistic that it can do without both.

My personal theory, without, of course, any proper research to back it up, is also that the widespread suffering of two world wars brought in a lot of scepticism in Europe, while the USA sailed blithely through, taking comparatively light losses and retaining a typical belief in a caring, interventionist god.

[mr blur]

2. I think your last paragraph makes a valid point

and is reflected in the freeper cry of "we saved your asses in two world wars!" By the grace of their god...

[T_i_B]

6. Is that what the religious right is really about?

My personal theory, without, of course, any proper research to back it up, is also that the widespread suffering of two world wars brought in a lot of scepticism in Europe, while the USA sailed blithely through, taking comparatively light losses and retaining a typical belief in a caring, interventionist god.

Now I have to disagree here for this reason, in the US the idea of a wrathful God is a great deal more prevalent then in the UK. Things such as Calvinist theology are a lot more prevalent in the US, although you won't hear too much about Calvinism on DU at all. It's not a concept DUer's can get their head round in the slightest, I find it difficult to understand myself for one.

In my own experience Churches over here actually avoid the idea of a wrathful God, concentrating on the loving part of God above all else, and certainly in Methodist and CofE Churches you would be hard pushed to come across a hellfire sermon.

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. I was thinking more of the general drift away from religion in Europe

rather than the specifics of the type of religion popular here or in America.

I've wondered why, in many European countries, there's been a general decline in organised religion, compared to the Victorian era, while the USA has stayed, by and large, church-going, whether it's Catholic, moderate Protestant, or Southern Baptist. I think that when people lost so many family members in the First World War, and then saw the suffering of million in the Second, there could be a tendency to think either "God doesn't intervene in human affairs - so why pray?", "God is already judging us with this suffering - were those who died really that bad - does he really care for us?" or "There is no God". Any one of those lines of thought would discourage people from organised religion.

I admit I don't understand Calvinism. But I thought it isn't so much about a wrathful God (which implies he's judging us on our actions) as an arbitrary one, who has already decided that some will be saved, and others condemned - and the condemned can't save themselves however good a life they lead from now on. What I don't understand at all is if people are meant to know if they're saved or not. Are the saved 'forced' to live a righteous life by God? Do they have free will - enough to move themselves into the 'damned' category if they behave badly?

[T_i_B]

11. Well I'm thinking of the type of religion practiced

and that most certainly does affect the religious zeal of people and places. Imagine if Britain were a Muslim nation for instance. I think it's fair to say that we would not be at the same level of secularism if we were. And Islam is gaining numbers in Britain so that type of religiosity is on the up here. Certainly the version of Christianity favoured in the UK is a major factor in the fortunes of Christianity here.

And yes, Calvinism does deny free will. It's one of the big divides in protestant religion, and theologians have been arguing about it ever since the days of Erasmus and Martin Luther.

And as evidence that Calvinism does have room for a wrathful God I will submit what is probably the most famous hellfire sermon of all time. Made by the famous 18th Century American Calvinist preacher Jonathan Edwards. For some reason this sort of sermon actually sparked a religious revival, although it seems to be talking about an altogether different God to the one I know.

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/sinners.htm

And if you are wondering why I keep banging on about Calvinism, it's because this is such a huge influence on the religious right, yet hardly anyone on DU seems to have the foggiest idea about it. As a result the debates about the religious right on DU show very little, if any understanding of the subject in question.

[tjwmason]

12. I completely agree about Calvinism

I encountered it by going to university in Scotland, I hung around with many folk from the Divity Faculty and though they weren't generally protestant there were folk from the Church of Scotland.

The C.ofS. is technically Calvinist - though like most of the Church of England it has embraced the 'God of the middle-class' and is now far more theologically liberal than the C.ofE.

It has been a massive influence on American religion - the Pilgrim Fathers (who left on this day f.w.i.w.) were leaving because the C.ofE. was not sufficiently hard-line Calvinist (and this way back then as well), to give one small example. It has also influenced other parts of American Christianity as well - many conservative Catholics over there have almost puritan leanings - it was American Lutherans who first used the term fundamental, and were referencing themselves.

[T_i_B]

14. The reformation in Scotland...

...was not like the reformation in England. in England it came about because Henry VIII wanted a divorce and the Pope said no. In Scotland it was a much more genuine religious reformation, kickstarted not by the state but by John Knox and his "First blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women" (critics throughout the ages have considered that title by far the best part of that work). Knox brought over Calvinism from Geneva to Scotland and that's been a much greater part of religious life in Scotland then in England.

And yes, the influence of Calvinism on American religion cannot be underestimated. Indeed it is noticeable how much people seem to have confused the term "evangelical" with anyone who simply believes in Calvinist theology. It is certainly a massive force driving the religious right.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. That's certainly a hellfire sermon

but I'd say that it allows free will - it's all about warning people they must make the decision to be 'born again', and that's the only thing that will save them. So it is really Calvinist?

I suppose that if the thought of a vengeful God is embedded in the American mind, it might mean they have been collectively more worried about leaving organised religion than Europeans who regard him as one who tends to love (and might forgive someone who lives a 'good life', even if they didn't believe in "only Jesus can save me"). But I get the impression that most of the far right 'Christians' are rather smug about their status, and not cowering in the expectation that most of them are just as damned as atheists like me.

[T_i_B]

15. No. Edwards did deny free will.

He wrote a treatise entitled "A Careful and Strict Enquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of that Freedom of Will which is supposed to be essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame" advocating presdestination over free will. You can read it here if you wish.

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/text/FoW/FOWOutline.htm

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. So Calvinist salvation or damnation is entirely up to God?

Interesting - that presumably puts them in the same ethical boat as atheists - that there is no decision you can make to alter your ultimate fate, and so your behaviour on earth is entirely up to the morals and ethics that appear in your head (by God's plan in the case of Calvinists, by determinism or the free will of an independent mind in the case of atheists).

That sound to be as if Calvinists should have had the same restriction on running for public office in the USA as atheists faced.

[tjwmason]

20. Exactly - one of the principle criticisms of the more extreme forms of

pre-destination is the promotion of antinomianism.

Put simply, if you're one of the elect - your going to be saved, and there's nothing you can do about it (doctrine of final perseverance); if you're not, you're going to be damned and there's nothing you can do about that either.

[T_i_B]

23. Antinomianism is a huge danger with Calvinist doctrine

There is a huge danger with Calvinist "salvation by faith not works" theology that its followers simply use it as an excuse not to do good works. To that end Calvinists have long tried to argue that the "elect" are shown to the world by their predestined good works but their explanations can often end up a tad on the convoluted side IMHO.

FWIW, I might as well post the passage from the Bible that I often find most difficult to reconcile with Calvimism, but then again maybe that's why I tend towards free will Christianity (as do most other Christians on this board in my experience). From the second chapter of the letter from James.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202;&version=31;

[RageFist]

3. I am a 22 yo American

who was raised Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints officially). Let me tell you that growing up for me consisted of being indoctrinated with "America: The Blessed Nation" horseshit. I am now a staunch atheist (at great cost vis a vis personal relationships) and science fanatic (I am a biology major at UNLV in Las Vegas), hence my atheism.

Let me tell you that while the oppostition is indeed nauseating at times, many of my friends are atheist and the one Catholic in our circle has rejected all organized religion. There is hope here, and it lies in the secular-progressive youth movement. We grew up in the cush pipe-dream that was the 90s in America. Prosperity and peace (generally) were the name of the game. For me, coming out of the pipe dream has left me feeling angry, yes, but mostly duped.

God does not bless this nation. This nation enjoys "freedom" as a result of outrageous governmental policies of previous decades. How dare the previous generations rape our young minds with such a horrible fantasy as "God Bless the USA." We were told the world hated our way of life-how naive. The world hates imperialism, and we have been at the helm for years.

I'm not sure how long it will take to defeat such a force as the Christian right here in America, but rest assured Britons, there is opposition armed with not religion, but passion.

Hurricane Katrina has put more fire in our bellies. I can't speak for everyone of my ilk, but as for me, I will fight tooth and nail against the oppressors for as long as it takes. It seems the stakes are as high as ever, though I lack, admittedly, personal historic perspective. Don't give up on us Britain, for it is people like your countrymen who help people like me feel not quite so alone in this world of ours.

:pals:

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. It's the right wing TV preachers that are the real difference

The Catholic church is in much the same position in both countries, and while the Church of England is 'established' (ie official), 'moderate' is practically in its name - it does not think that it should be interfering in science (Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey, for instance, along with a few other great scientists. After a few arguments, I think they realised the science was correct, and thought it was better to celebrate the fact that the discover was English).

There's no equivalent of Pat Robertson, really. While there are some small extremist sects (the one that Iain Paisley runs in Northern Ireland, or the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, their influence is very limited in the coutnry as a whole. Having whole TV channels devoted to a commercial church operation seems unthinkable (though I do sometimes wonder if digital TV will change that). I don't think Britain has got as excited about religion as the US is now since the 19th century - and the media were completely different then.

Good luck with the atheism - it's completely unremarkable here in Europe, and I think will eventually be the same in the USA (while I lived there for a couple of years, I never found it a problem, but then I was always a 'visitor', and not someone who'd expect to be a permanent part of the community - and I was also in the north-east). At the same time, the stereotype of "Christian" here is someone anti-war, concerned about the environment, and so on - ie a nice person. It makes it a lot easier for everyone to get on.

[ikri]

7. NTL

Cable TV carries a few religious channels. There's the "GOD Channel" at the very least and I'm sure I've seen reference to a few others. I don't think they're included in the basic packages so you have to go out of your way to subscribe to them. I doubt they get more than ten thousand viewers at peak times, that's probably a very generous figure too.

Interestingly, NTL still sane enough to carry more soft-core porn channels than religious ones. Guess they know where our priorities are ;)

[caty]

18. You are not alone--

there are millions of us "baby boomers" who will back you up. The youth of our country are not the only ones who are fed up. Americans of all ages are fighting to bring our country back to what is should be.

[non sociopath skin]

5. Interesting that a right-wing newspaper should print this ...

... the Guardian has already published Op-Eds on the ghastly Mumbo-Jumbo that is emerging as the ideology of the Busheviks, but I find it kind of reassuring that British Torydom may well share our scepticism.

Bloody good writer, Schama ...

The Skin

[tjwmason]

9. The Telegraph editor is a Catholic

and one who knows what he's talking about vis a vis (his first degree is in Theology).

I would guess that the Torygraph (along with most of the Tory Party) sees religion as a social good, but has the common sense to realise that when religion goes wrong the results are pretty bloody atrocious - and so are keen to avoid the loony extremism of much American religion.

After Pat Robertson made his idiotic comment about Pres. Chavez, the unanimous response among my right-wing friends was that he was being as bad as the Taliban - this includes folk who will only ever attend the Latin Mass, they really are very very conservative, but still not the same loony types as Robertson and the rest of the right-wing fundies.

[mr blur]

10. "The Tory Party At Prayer"

as the CofE was once famously described. Be seen at the village church on Sunday morning before riding off to slaghter a fox or two before riding back for tea with the vicar. But I don't think they actually BELIEVED in very much beyond their right to keep the lower orders in their places.

Anyone here who claimed that a natural disaster was their god's way of punishing a section of society for their sins would surely be humoured while someone phoned for an ambulance. At least I'd like to think so. This is surely why Blair, whatever religious fantasy he may hold dear to his heart, has more sense than to spout it in public.

[caty]

17. After reading some of the

posts, I feel that some have the wrong opinion of most Americans. I understand why, when the media in our country is so biased. I personally know very few republicans. 99% of the people I know voted for Kerry and are very disappointed with the direction bush is leading our country. The right wingers are trying to disguise the fact that they are ignorant, hateful, and mean spirited with religion. There is very little intelligence or compassion in their world.

Most of us feel that the last two elections were stolen. When we vote on computerized machines that are managed by people who donated to the republican candidate, we have to wonder. When the voters are polled after voting and Kerry is way ahead, and then we here that that district was won by bush--what are we to think--the word "stealection" describes it best in both 2000 and 2004.

Most Americans are against the war, but we love, respect, and honor our soldiers. We are intelligent and compassionate. Don't judge us by a man we never wanted, but are stuck with for another 3 1/2 years. Also, keep in mind that the media is often ruled by republicans. Their opinions are not the opinions of most Americans. The Fox News channel is notorious for being in favor of republicans and always manage to twist the truth to fit their agenda.

The fact that bush's approval rating in this country is only 44% is proof that most of us do not agree with what he has done to our economy or with the war. Most Americans are ethical, compassionate, and have a strong respect for knowledge, nature, and science.

[LeftishBrit]

21. I agree with Caty

Most Americans whom I know are totally anti-Bush! I think it's as unfair to think of all Americans as Christian-Taliban warmongering imperialists because of Bush and his more extreme supporters, as it would be to think of all UK-ers as narrow-minded selfish right-wingers who think that "there's no such thing as society" because of Maggie Thatcher!

Unfortunately, the nastiest people in all countries tend usually to be the noisiest, and often the most powerful.

[non sociopath skin]

22. The trouble is that the country really does seem to be deeply polarised...

... with the Two Tribes having little or nothing to do with one another.

Sadly, I don't think that it's just a case of empty vessels making the most sound. Too many, I fear, genuinely do buy into the Bushevik crap.

It will be interesting to see how present trends play out: however, I'd be very surprised to see a massive sea-change, in spite of Shrub's multitude of crimes and disdemeanours. I fear that it will take a long, long time to disillusion some of the hard cases.

But I'd be delighted to be proved wrong ....

The Skin

[mr blur]

24. We know that Repubs don't represent most Americans

and that their values (or lack of them) are not representative of the whole US. The trouble is that they are vocal, bigoted, "America is god's chosen land and the rest of the world can fuck off" face of the US which is presented to the rest of the world - and which pisses everyone off so much.

I was following the thread on the BBC website where they print comments from all over the world. Two comments:

" The lesson I have learned is that the rest of the world seems to revel in the misfortunes of the US. I believe we Americans should remember this fact the next time a foreign country gets itself in the fire and naturally expects us to bail them out." Ted Miller, Springfield, VA USA

"America is still and always will be the beacon of hope."
Mark Mercer, Denver, Colorado

Beacon of hope to whom?
I don't see anyone over here reveling in the misfortunes of the US.

I see a process of self-delusion and denial already creeping over the US. And I know that there are millions of you who don't feel this way, but where is the public opposition to Bush from the Left? It doesn't get reported because it doesn't seem to be there. Ethical and compassionate Americans are not heard around the world because the morans shout louder, and they are repulsive, and they've become the public face of America. It's a tragedy.

[caty]

25. Our opinions

are not heard because for some reason the news media will not report our views. I hear reports on the news that I knew about the month before simply by reading posts on DU. We are being lied to and kept in the dark. It seems as though everything has been contaminated by the repubs in one way or another.

[RageFist]

19. By the way, Just wanted to say I really appreciate the "family"...

characterization. Some of our (Americans) siblings are beyond comprehension, but you haven't abandoned us (not that France, Germany, or any other country has I suppose). I am referring more to the feeling I get reading blogs on DU. I get the sense that you guys truly WANT good relations with us, but there are obvious reasons to be upset/concerned. For my part, I went to my first anti-bush/war rally tonight and I'm stoked that we can change for the better...everyone there was under 25 (except for 2) and we even got some people driving by to join us...not much, cause the Las Vegas activisim scene is in its infancy, but its a start! I know I posted such sentiments already on this thread, but I feel strongly about them-Don't give us up just yet, we're fighting and getting stronger! Thanks again, UK! We love you guys.

[non sociopath skin]

26. Just read about this in LBN. Says it all....

Just couldn't imagine any church in the UK being so crassly bone-headed:

http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3826469&nav=1TjDeJpk

The Skin