Livingstone refuses to apologise for nazi jibe.

[non sociopath skin]

Ken Livingstone has defiantly refused to express regret or apologise for comparing an Evening Standard reporter to a concentration camp guard.
Surprising all the pundits who predicted contrition, the London mayor added further fuel to the row by launching a third tirade against the Daily Mail group, for which the reporter works.

"Upon reflection, there will be no apology or expression of regret to either the journalist or the Daily Mail group," Mr Livingstone said.

"A week ago I said it was not my intention to apologise to the journalist from the Daily Mail group or his employers. I spend a further week of reflection in which I have read everything which has been written, but after a considerable degree of debate, I have decided to stand by that.

"There will be no apology or expression of regret to the Daily Mail group"

He then launched into another attack on the reporter, Oliver Finegold, repeating his assertions that if he wanted to work for an organisation with links to fascism, that was his own lookout.

Rest at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Politics/media/story/0,12123,1420009,00.html

IMHO this has gone on long enough. I've been an admirer of Ken Livingstone for a long time but I've been fighting anti-semitism for even longer. I know that the Mail Group are foul people but this does not justify the remarks that Livingstone made.

By refusing to apologise, he is harming all of us on the left.

Time to be Big, Ken.

The Skin

[TomClash]

1. What's anti-semitic about it?

I think that's the point.

[non sociopath skin]

7. Okay. Picture this ....

A prominent left-wing jewish journalist is accused by a prominent right-wing politician of being "like a concentration camp guard" because he's criticised Sharon's policies in Israel instead of standing up for the Israeli cause.

You'd be fine with that, right?

The Skin

[Englander]

11. That's funny....

"prominent .. jewish journalist" .
So,is Finegold the star reporter & big-name writer on the ES?
I thought he was just the diaryist? For a "prominent .. journalist"
any articles that he's written are a bit thin on the ground.:-)

And wtf has Sharon or Israel got to do with any of this?
Ken had an argument with a Tory hack who was door-stepping
him & all the guests at the Chris Smith party.
He used extreme rhetoric to show that he was extremely
pissed off with this ES journo. Insulting a journalist
is nothing to apologise about.

[TomClash]

12. Don't be a condescending ***hole - I didn't know the reporter was jewish

I'm still not sure it was an anti-semitic remark, though. Is it really an attack on the jewish people or is it simply an attack on this reporter for his political affiliation? I would say the latter.

Everyone who criticizes Israeli policies in the US is absurdly labelled "anti-semitic" and no one says a word.

Okay, picture this . . .

A certain Mayor spends a lifetime fighting racism and war and fascism. A certain Tory reporter works for a newspaper that was (and many would argue still is) sympathetic to fascism and racism and in addition has it out for the Mayor. The Tory reporter asks the same inane question four times "So how did it go in there?" The Mayor insults the reporter because he's working for fascist sympathizers and now the Mayor has to apologize.

You'd be fine with that, right?

[non sociopath skin]

15. Do I also programme into it that ....

... our anti-fascist mayor also worked for the same "fascist sympathising" paper. As Ken did.

I'm not going to trade obscenities with you, but I do think you ought to get to know the facts before you resort to personal abuse.

The Skin

[TomClash]

20. You started it with your condescending attitude

So you're saying Ken Livingstone knew from experience that they were fascists? Hmmm.

Good God, are restaurant reviews really the same thing as covering politics?

[non sociopath skin]

21. The history of the Mail group is pretty well known in left-wing circles.

If Livingstone's objection was to the past history of the papers, then he would have been fully aware of it before he chose to work for them.

If you object to the politics of an organisation so much that you see their reporters as having a "Concentration Camp Guard" mindset, I can hardly see it being either consistent and ethical to work for them in any capacity.

The Skin

[TomClash]

23. Point taken

But penning restaurant reviews is not exactly the same as covering political events.

Still, I don't see the antisemitism in it.

Perhaps he should say "I'm truly sorry if my remarks unintentionally offended my jewish comrades and friends" leaving the odious Mail Group and its lap dog out of it.

[non sociopath skin]

24. If that satisfies the jewish community. They're the ones who took the hurt

Like you, couldn't give a cuss about the Mail Group.

The Skin

[Nihil]

25. He did

> Perhaps he should say "I'm truly sorry if my remarks unintentionally
> offended my jewish comrades and friends" leaving the odious Mail Group
> and its lap dog out of it.

He apologised for offending any Jewish people who were upset by the
remark. He specifically excluded apologising to the Mail, Evening
Standard or the reporter.

As stated elsewhere, this was a 1:1 comment to a particularly irritating
member of the gutter press that has been blown up by the politically
motivated yappers who just love to sling mud at Livingstone.

[SweetLeftFoot]

2. Crap

If Oliver Finegold is soooooooo sensitive to anti-semitic attitudes, why is he taking money from a group that openly supported Hitler?

[non sociopath skin]

8. Be careful.

So maybe I shouldn't support the Democrats because seventy years ago the Southern Democrats were overtly racist, then?

And not all of the left-of-centre was squeaky-clean on armed opposition to facism ...

[Nihil]

3. I disagree Skin

> By refusing to apologise, he is harming all of us on the left.

I think he is actually setting a damn good example: honesty, openness
and integrity. He has confirmed what he said (and why - but that bit
seems to have been dropped from the tea-storm-cup). He is not trying
to fudge the words, to weasel out or get overpaid spin doctors to "set
the appropriate context after the fact". He has considered the matter
in the cool light of day, decided that he has nothing to apologise for
and then (bravely) refused to kow-tow to the media (and certain Labour
politicians).

Someone who apologises for nothing simply because he (or she) wants
to look squeaky clean is spineless, lacking in integrity and totally
unsuitable for a position of responsibility.

If only a few more politicians were so honest.

Nihil

[non sociopath skin]

9. A bit like Enoch Powell, really ....

The Skin

[Nihil]

27. ?

Must have missed that ... when was Enoch Powell "harming all of us on
the left"?

[non sociopath skin]

29. It just occured to me that the justification you gave for Livingstone ....

... reminded me of the justification made for Powell by the populist right when the Tories disowned his "Rivers of Blood" speech.

What's sauce for the goose ...

The Skin

[Nihil]

30. Ah!

Sorry ... a bit slow on that one!

[Englander]

32. Yes..

I do agree with you that similar arguments were made.

However,in that case,the "truth" "courage" & "integrity" that
Powell was speaking were National Front propaganda,and blatantly
racist & offensive language that was intended for a wide audience
and given at the same time as the Race Relations Act was going
through Parliament.

[mr blur]

17. Well said

Couldn't have put it more clearly or concisely.

[mr blur]

18. Ah, crap!

Previous post was meant to be in answer to Nihil's post. Apologies.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Huh?

Post #17 was in reply to post #3, which was by Nihil. Now you've got me really confused.

[Englander]

4. There's nothing...

to say sorry about. This is an utterly trivial incident,
& not actual "anti-semitism".

[non sociopath skin]

16. So why is the jewish community of all political persuasions and none ...

... so upset by it?

The Skin

[Nihil]

26. As always ...

... it is not the entire "Jewish community of all political persuasions
and none" that is offended, just some vocal parts of it that have been
provided with a soapbox. The other parts of the "Jewish community of
all political persuasions and none" don't give a toss for the political
abuse of "Holocaust" accusations.

[Englander]

31. Which is a question...

for the "jewish community".

If this comment was written in an article,or made
in a speech, ie if it was public,I would say Ken should
apologize.
As it was part of some late-night sparring with a journalist
from a paper that has a history of "monstering" Livingstone,
and that this is a battle in a "war" that has lasted for 25 years,
I don't feel that the journalist should be given an apology.
This is part of the vendetta that the Mail papers have against
the Mayor,and does not (imo) signify an example of "anti-semitism".

I've just read the profile from Friday's Guardian,and the Mayor
does have a history of using overblown & intemeperate rhetoric
to get his point across.

[T_i_B]

5. I'm with you on this N_S_S

Livingstone was wrong to say it, and he should apologize.

It matters not who the journalist works for. If Finegold worked for the Guardian would that suddenly make it an apology acceptable to Livingstone? I also have been an admirer of Ken but he is not doing himself any favours whatsoever here.

[Vladimir]

6. Ken's biggest problem in the whole affair is

that he used to work for the newspapers he now dislikes so much - maybe under a different editor, but if he is blaming the Daily Mail for its policies in the 30s it is hard to see how he can defend himself by saying he only worked for the Standard in the 80s. As a matter of fact I think both the Mail and Standard are the sort of RW tripe that deserves to be binned, but Ken has caught himself in a PR shithole; apologising now will harm him, but if he doesn't he may never recover from this.

And the remark is not, IMO, anti-semitic - but it has been percieved as such. For better or worse, that is what we have to work with...

[ikri]

10. Here's the part people are somehow missing...

there will be no apology or expression of regret to either the journalist or the Daily Mail group," Mr Livingstone said

Old Red Ken knows well how the Daily Mail supported Fascism in the 1930's and ran articles attacking Jewish refugees. I suspect that Ken will apologise for his remarks about the same time that the Mail runs an editorial admitting that it supported Hitler.

[Mr Creosote]

13. Not missing anything are we

if we expected rather more from Ken than we expect from the Daily Mail?

[non sociopath skin]

22. As I've pointed out above ....

... Ken himself worked for the Mail group, even though he knew of their history.

That being so, his current stand is hardly consistent!

The Skin

[T_i_B]

28. This is the Evening Standard, not the Mail

The Daily Mail merely owns the Standard, which as N_S_S points out, Ken Livingstone used to write for himself.

Oddly enough it wasn't actually the Standard who broke the story as they felt it too trivial. Word got around though and the story first broke on the Guardian website.

I have a copy of last nights Standard oddly enough and it is all but calling Ken a liar and dissembler for his account of the incident. The Standard's sister rag Metro (you know, that free thing you find lying around on trains) has given the story minimal coverage. The reason Ken Livingstone is blathering on about the 1930's Mail is merely a smokescreen here in order to try and deflect from his own slip of the tongue.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

14. Nobody should be in the business of calling people

a "concentration camp guard", unless they are/were a concentration camp guard. I think Livingstone should apologise.

Berlusconi (sp?) made a similar jibe at a left-wing MEP and was rightfully denounced for making that remark.