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Do people think of themselves as further left than they really are?

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Hopeless Romantic Donating Member (495 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 10:17 AM
Original message
Do people think of themselves as further left than they really are?
A recent piece of research by British economist James Rockey into people’s misperception of their place on the political spectrum got a certain amount of gleeful mileage in the right-wing press, and for predictable reasons. The research claimed that many people mislocate themselves – identifying with the “left” even though they hold opinions that are fairly right-wing. Having worried this over for a few weeks now, my considered view is that whilst the research is flawed at a quite fundamental level, the conclusion might contain some truth. Let’s see if I can express that thinking without contradicting myself!

The key difficulty with the research as I see it is that it relies on a right-wing economist’s idea of what left-wing people ought to think, an idea that it then presses into the service of the conclusion that, since they really don’t think those things, they are not actually on the left. Specifically, the research asks two questions, the first of which is used the generate the variable that is central to the project and the second of which generates another variable which the researcher thinks ought to line up with the first. This provides a check: sharp divergence might show that there was something weird about the main variable and its associated question, thus invalidating the findings.

Here are the two questions, the first is associated with the variable moreineq and the second with variable secfair .

“Incomes should be made more equal vs We need larger income differences as incentives. How would you place your views on this scale?”
“Imagine two secretaries, of the same age, doing practically the same job. One finds out that the other earns considerably more than she does. The better paid secretary, however, is quicker, more efficient and more reliable at her job. In your opinion, is it fair or not fair that one secretary is paid more than the other?
A moment’s reflection by anyone familiar with the political philosophy literature of the past forty years will show that (a) there are good reasons why someone might think of themselves as being “on the left” and yet give the “wrong” answer to each question and (b) that different flavours of leftie-liberal will give the “wrong” answers in each case for different reasons. So, in the case of the moreineq question, a committed Rawlsian might – in the right circumstances – favour more inequality to provide incentives that would ultimately benefit the least advantaged. (This, incidentally, is a big problem for the claim that moreineq is a variable that tracks leftwingery across different societies, since, obviously, a Rawlsian with invariant principles will answer the question quite differently depending on what the local and temporal facts are.) In the case of secfair, it is the luck egalitarians who will be tempted by the “wrong” answer, unreconstructed loons though they are (by right-wing standards). Admittedly, the question is rather underspecified from the luck-egalitarian point of view, but, assuming that the secretaries face identical opportunity sets to one another (etc, etc) then divergence in income that is down to choice isn’t going to be a problem.

But whilst the research is therefore a mess, and doesn’t justify its conclusion, I suspect the conclusion is closer to the truth that is comfortable, a belief that I base largely on observation and anecdote. Why so? Well, it is very implausible that the inequalities that exist in actual societies are mainly caused by the exercise of choice against a fair background. Rather, brute luck plays the main role. I’m just going to assert that. Nevertheless, many self-described left-wing academics of my acquaintance, though earning in the very highest percentiles of the income distribution, believe they are underpaid and ought to get more. This belief, I submit, is in practice inconsistent with even sophisticated egalitarianisms, and supports the view that they are more right-wing than they fancy themselves to be.

(In the interests of full disclosure I should reveal my own view, which is that a just society would be massively more egalitarian that the one I live in and that it would require me (and others like me) to take a pretty large pay cut. I’m lucky to earn what I earn, and don’t usually experience strong feelings of desert, entitlement, or resentment about my relative position (OK, the occasional irrational twinge when I compare myself to some other professors). It would hurt me to give up what I have, but that’s what I think ought to happen, that’s what I would vote for, but I lack the strength of will to do much about it individually (I do a bit). That’s how come I’m so rich, even though I’m an egalitarian .)

http://crookedtimber.org/2010/08/02/do-people-think-of-themselves-as-further-left-than-they-really-are/
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is an example of a fairly awful study...
(and I speak as a professional researcher.)

The question is ambiguous, and deliberately phrased in terms likely to attract a right-wing response.

There are certain key aspects omitted. In particular: how much more pay is 'considerably more'? To different people, this could mean "5 per cent more" or "10 times as much". Few left-wingers believe in ABSOLUTE equality of income for all; even Communist countries have never practiced that degree of egalitarianism. Left-wingers believe in a much more egalitarian society than right-wingers do, and in significant reduction of income differentials. At minimum, they believe that society should make sure that everyone gets enough money for basic survival needs, and that no one should be allowed to suffer severe poverty, even if this means increasing taxation on the better-off. This does not mean that left-wingers (usually) believe that *total* egalitarianism is desirable or even possible. Similarly, few right-wingers would believe for example in absolute abolition of taxation - though I have come across a few such, even on DU!

I strongly suspect that if the *level* of the pay differential were specified in this question, right-wingers would be prepared to endorse significantly greater differentials than left-wingers would.
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miscsoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm going to read the paper, and might comment after I've done so
But the abstract is ridiculous:

"This paper suggests that there are consistent patterns in how different groups of individuals
perceive their relative ideological position. Using data from a large-scale cross-country survey
on individuals’ views and personal characteristics it compares who reports themselves as being
left(right) wing and who on an objective measure are actually left(right) wing. It finds, for
example, the more educated on average believe themselves to be more left wing than their
actual beliefs on a substantive issue might suggest."

"Objective measure?"
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ikri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. And yet ...
The results of tests on politicalcompass.org and the voteforpolicies.org.uk suggest that most people share centre-left views even though they think of themselves as either centre or centre-right.
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miscsoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Incidentally, Ed West, a Telegraph blogger linked to in the article
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 12:36 PM by miscsoc
Is an enormous tit.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100047245/why-middle-class-lefties-believe-stupid-things-because-their-friends-do/

Another noticeable difference between “liberals” and conservatives in London is that if you look on the bookshelves of the former you will find, among hundreds of non-fiction and fiction titles, not a single work by a conservative. In contrast Tories always have a few Left-wing books, not because we’re more open-minded but simply because this is the prevailing cultural ethos and we have no choice.


I have more right wing books than left wing books, although I don't live in London. Maybe London leftists don't read conservatives but I think it's more likely that West is just making shit up out of whole cloth.

This perfectly explains why certain “progressive” views taught by Marxist lecturers in the 1960s and 1970s have been able to take hold and take over our society, despite the majority of people believing, correctly, that they are foolish and the people articulating them hypocrites and frauds.


Unless he's talking about attitudes towards the queers and the coloureds (which he may well be, actually) British society has in no sense become more "progressive" since the 60s and 70s. In economics, social policy and criminal justice we are wayyyyy to the right of Britain in 1970, say.

And so when I – a seemingly normal person (I hope) – suggest that, contrary to the assumed consensus, the EU is a stupid idea and opponents are not xenophobes, that most social studies do suggest marriage is pretty important for a child’s wellbeing, or – my nuclear option, and only if I never want to get invited back for dinner – Enoch Powell was right in his two 1968 speeches (and he never said “rivers of blood”, yer morons), it’s as if I’d just admitted to grooming children.


This cunt is living in a britain unrecognisable to me, although I'd like to go there, its inhabitants sound sensible. Also Powell did say that immigration of non whites would lead to rivers foaming with blood - he quoted Virgil to this effect. I don't think he used the exact phrase "rivers of blood" - I've never heard anyone say he did - but he explicitly talked about rivers of blood, that's why they called it the "rivers of blood" speech. On account of his actually talking about, like, rivers of blood.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ed West is one of the nastiest of the Torygraph writers and that is saying a lot.
He's the one who wrote that viciously nasty article that I quoted the other week, about too many disabled people on benefits; mental health problems should not be taken into account as we all suffer from stress but don't all take time off work; doctors should tell their patients to pull themselves together instead of signing them off; etc.

He is also a big immigrant-basher, as shown here.

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miscsoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Just had a look on his blog, and I see that at least he is capable of some empathy for other people
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 07:06 AM by miscsoc
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Here's Powell's exact quote, from the speech transcript, which I've linked to here:
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/rivers_blood2.html

"As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see ‘the River Tiber foaming with much blood’. "

So, even if he didn't used the EXACT phrase "rivers of blood", he did clearly express the concept in the Roman speaker he quoted.

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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. My brother's the opposite...
Edited on Tue Aug-10-10 06:41 PM by BolivarianHero
Life-long Tory, socially liberal, hates Israel, doesn't believe in the Hebrew Sky Demon, and wants Harper to get on the CRTC's ass and go after the telecoms.
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