Whitewash: TWENTY-ONE Oxbridge colleges took no black students last year

[Hopeless Romantic]

Oxford and Cambridge are fending off allegations of racial exclusion today after it was revealed that 21 of their colleges made no offers to black students last year.

The worst offender is Oxford collge, Merton, which has admitted no black students in the last five years and just one in the last decade.

With the controversial Commons vote on tuition fees to take place on Thursday, seeking to charge students up to £9,000 per year, there are fresh fears that students from disadvantaged backgrounds will be squeezed out.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336414/Oxbridge-whitewash-21-colleges-accept-black-students-academic-year.html#ixzz17R94Ochq

[muriel_volestrangler]

1. Better source: The Guardian, and Lammy's own commentary in the Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/06/oxford-colleges-no-black-students

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/06/the-oxbridge-whitewash-black-students

Never use the Daily Mail unless it's unavoidable; and when the source is a paper you can trust, and the man himself, it makes even more sense to go to them.

Also - the actual data: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/oxbridge-elitism-oxford-cambridge-race-class

[Jeneral2885]

2. Counter Questions

1) How many black students applied to Oxbridge?

2) How do you define black?

3) How can people simply accuse the colleges of racial biase whne they take in people of other "minorities"--Muslims, Jews etc and a range of international students-who pay at least three times the school fees?

4)How about comparing with the interests of "black" students? Why not examine whether they prefer non Oxbridge unis because of distance, quality (Oxbridge doesnt contain all the courses inthe world)

[LeftishBrit]

3. Good points

There is a tendency for governments, the media, etc. to assume that it is the individual colleges, etc. that are racist - rather than the whole educational and social system that is racist - not to mention that a high-fee institution in an expensive part of the country deters poorer applicants (a separate issue to be addressed!) Unfortunately this can have a self-fulfilling effect: black students may not apply because they are convinced that they won't get in.

I know of at least one example from the early 90s, when ethnic minority pupils in general tended not to apply to Oxbridge) to the same extent as whites - though then too it was strongly linked to class/ money (nowadays British Asian pupils do apply and get in, in at least the same proportion as whites). A British Asian pupil from a state school with a predominantly ethnic minority/ working class intake applied to Oxford. His headmaster called him into his office to tell him off for wasting his own and the school's time: Oxbridge would never accept anyone from that school! But he stuck to his guns and was accepted.

These days IMO it's mainly economic issues, rather than race, that affect people's chances of going to Oxbridge and many other good institutions (as you say, there are plenty of other universities that students might prefer for various reasons!) And it will be much worse next year, after the rise in tuition fees.

ETA: No excuse of course for Oxbridge and other universities not making a much more active attempt to cast their nets more widely, and to increase their own financial assistance for poorer students. But this has to be done in the context of co-operation by government, media, etc. - who at present seem to be encouraging the perpetuation of all inequalities! I agree with Lammy about the tuition fee increase just encouraging more Cameron/Clegg clones to go to university, in place of others who would gain much more benefits and extend it more to society as a whole. Of course, Cameron and Clegg got to attend university for free!

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. We can answer (1) from the data

2892 black applicants, 556 places offered (19% success rate); 140117 white applicants, 47931 places offered (34% success rate)

2) Those figures are for UK-domiciled students; I would guess they use a self-identified classification along the lines of UK census categories

3) Lammy certainly doesn't 'simply accuse the colleges of racial bias'; his article has a lot about area as well, and the data includes statistics for the Cambridge colleges on socio-economic classification too. They may take in other minorities, but we don't have particular figures for them. It's best to ignore international students, precisely because they do pay more, and that distorts the figures in a different direction.

4) Possible, but as far as distance goes, the areas of the country with high black populations are fairly close to Oxford and Cambridge (London especially, and the West Midlands). There is a commentary by Michael White in the Guardian, in which he says an Oxford spokesman said that applications from black students are largely in the most over-subscribed subjects - economics and management, medicine and maths. Oxbridge may not offer every single subject, but they do offer the major ones that tend to attract the best students; I don't think the range of courses would distort the relative black/white (or region, or socio-economic) statistics significantly.

[LeftishBrit]

5. I was not criticizing Lammy's remarks...

but the oversimplification by the Daily Mail, etc.

[Jeneral2885]

8. Ok

But it still isnt strong enough to prove that the colleges are biased against "Black" people. I do think Oxbridge "range of course" is not a range. I have personal experience to know that some so called lower tier universities offer a more diverse and equally as good number of courses enough to attract all kinds of students--"white", "black" and international much better than Oxford. The name doesnt always say it all.

And how do you classify a minority?

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. 'to attract all kinds of students' is part of what I'm saying

For your argument that the proportion of applications from black students may be significantly affected by the Oxbridge course range to hold water, you need to show how black students are more likely to be put off by not finding a particular course there than white students are. And it's still notable that applications from black students are significantly less successful than those from white students - 19% v. 34%.

[LeftishBrit]

11. Lammy makes a good point when he says that British 'elite' universities need to emulate their

American counterparts in making a much more active approach to schools: sending representatives to schools where pupils don't usually apply, and encouraging them to do so. Also giving more advice on *how* to apply: schools which traditionally send lots of people to university often give better advice on everything from how to fill in application forms to which courses are more or less likely to be oversubscribed. Oxbridge and other universities are doing more of this sort of thing in the last few years than in the past - but not nearly enough.

Also I would add, providing more scholarships and financial assistance for pupils who don't come from well-off backgrounds. Which will be even more of a problem with the fee increases.

[tjwmason]

6. Regarding Question 2

Applicants are asked what their ethinicity is, I'm guessing they used these self-defined categories. The options to choose from are:

White

Black or Black British - which is subdivided as:
Carribean
African
Other black background

Asian or Asian British - subdivided as:
Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Other Asian background

Mixed - subdivided as:
White and Black Carribean
White and Black African
White and Asian
Other mixed background

Other ethnic background

Information refused

[Jeneral2885]

7. I never understood

the coding system. It's still too general.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Make it less general, and you run the risk of not being to show any meaningful figures

If each college is already at the level of admitting about 1 black British person per year (from maybe 150 total), making the statistics more specific - whether that's "black father, white mother", "mother born in Jamaica, father in Britain but grandparents both born in Barbados" or something else - would become meaningless. You'd expect most of more specific categories to say 'none', in that case.

[dipsydoodle]

12. I doubt they would group Chinese in with Asians

They prefer the more accurate term Oriental. Its a matter of pride.

[tjwmason]

13. That's the terminology

I've got it sitting on forms on my desk.

[dipsydoodle]

14. Didn't realise that

Guess that means they're nut jobs anyway if they could even get that bit right.