So what do we think about the summit at No. 10 with muslim leaders?

[non sociopath skin]

Closing the stable door? Supping with "the enemy within" (what's the muslim equivalent of "beer and sandwiches"?) Token politics? Special pleading?

Or just a measured response in order to begin the backlash against extremism?

Dr. Zadawi seemed to be making the right noises ....

The Skin

[mr blur]

1. Well, I'd go for your second option,

The problem is that any young person who is willing to leave his wife and kids and go off on a tube to kill himself and others is possibly beyond any rational understanding of what we call civilised behaviour. Are they going to have respect for what Islamic elders say if they're so full of hatred that they will do that?

All fundamentalist lunatics of any religion just KNOW they are right. Anyone of the same religion who urges restraint and dialogue is just seen as "soft" and unwilling to go the whole way.

But, sorry, I'm straying away from your question.

[non sociopath skin]

5. There are signs that the Muslim Religious Establishment are ....

coming to terms with the fact that they haven't done much to address the problem of disaffected youth, making it all too easy for the Fundamentalists to move in and fill the gap. If they are serious about ways of putting this right, good, but I fear that it will be a long and rocky road.

The one good that may come out of the ghastly events in London is that Blair, being blessed at least with a brain between his ears, may begin to take the "winning the hearts and minds" of muslims seriously in a way that a hapless twat with nought between his auricular appendages but a load of Portland ready-mix like the Chimp ccouldn't.

The Neo-Fundie "mentality" is aptly summed up by this recent dunno-whether-to-laugh-or-cry" DU strand. Blair may yet be made of more subtle stuff. (Still can't stand the bugger, though.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1635658

BTW, pity that Hanif Kureishi wasn't invited to the summit. His article in today's Guardian is probably the best I've seen so far on the subject.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1531301,00.html

The Skin

[Briar]

10. I agree, Hanif Kureishi

is much more in touch. This is wonderful article.

(extracts)

"Governments may be representative but they and the people are not the same. In our disillusionment, it is crucial that we remind ourselves of this. States behave in ways that would shame an individual. Governments persuade individuals to behave in ways that individuals know are morally wrong. Therefore governments do not speak for us; we have our own voices, however muffled they may seem. If communities are not to be corrupted by the government, the only patriotism possible is one that refuses the banality of taking either side, and continues the arduous conversation. That is why we have literature, the theatre, newspapers - a culture, in other words.

"War debases our intelligence and derides what we have called "civilisation" and "culture" and "freedom". If it is true that we have entered a spiral of violence, repression and despair that will take years to unravel, our only hope is moral honesty about what we have brought about."

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Well...

considering that these are ostensibly "respectable" Muslim leaders, isn't it a bit like meeting with the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope after some fundamentalist Christian lunatic commits an act of religiously-inspired violence? Seems it's more token politics than anything else. Make a few soothing noises, go through some convincing motions.

[T_i_B]

4. One big issue here is Islamic Theology...

...and how it can be used to justify terrorism. Meeting with Islamic leaders would help us non-Muslims to undertand why this happens just as meeting with your local CofE vicar might explain why the religious right in the US does some of the nutty things that they do.

Theology does impact on quite a few political things. For instance, knowlege of Islamic theology might explain this old story a bit better for instance.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4464461.stm

A group of suspected Islamists have attacked a meeting of George Galloway's Respect party in Bethnal Green and Bow.

Police said there were reports 20 to 30 Asian men had disrupted the meeting and there had then been a fracas outside.

Respect said the men had threatened Mr Galloway's life and talked of a fatwa. After the meeting a man was knocked to the ground and police arrested three.

The alleged attack on Mr Galloway's meeting at about 2100 BST on Tuesday on the Osier estate comes during an already bitter campaign, and hours after a Muslim Council of Britain event was also disrupted.

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. Well, that's true enough...

and it may be somewhat helpful, assuming that the Islamic community is broadly represented. But just as with Christian theology, there may be a general agreement on most points of theology, but there are minor yet important differences...between, say, Sunni, Wahhabi, Ahmadiya, Shi'a, and so on. And, as they say, the devil is in the details.

[T_i_B]

12. Knowledge & Understanding can be gained

Well I would just point out that even moderate Muslim leaders would be likely to have some knowledge of where Jihadi theology comes from, and might even be able to refute Jihadi theology using Islamic Scripture!

But we non-Muslims cannot hope to challenge the theology of Jihad as we are....well infidel really. I'm afraid that only the Islamic world can take on Jihadi theology with any real effect. The jihadi's are hardly going to listen to us decadent western infidel are they? To that end we do have to engage with the Muslim world as we can't impose secular western values at gunpoint.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. In the long term, more cooperation between government and Muslim leaders

might help - if they could study at universities the way protestant and Catholic priests study there, I think it would help integrate Islam in the UK - if Muslims grow up hearing the basic message of Islam as moderate, it will be a lot harder for people to persuade them that Islam demands they get violent.

In the short term, I fear mr blur is right - the kind of people who are willing to bomb etc. now are probably too far gone to be reined back by the reasonable Muslim leaders.

"Dr. Zadawi"? Do you mean Dr Zaki Badawi, who, despite making the right noises (to the extent of having an honorary knighthood), has just been banned from entering the USA? Mind your nadgers on that tailpipe, Tony - the exhaust of the neocons is awfully hot ...

[non sociopath skin]

7. Twas that Dr. Zadawi, I do believe.

Yes, Muriel, I fear the frog's nadgers may be truly aflame when someone finally gets the Chimp to understand what's happening.

Where's Steve Bell's knighthood, BTW?

The Skin

[supernova]

8. If I might add my 2 cents

I remember some years ago watching Frontline, I think. The topic was essentially, "What makes a suicide bomber?" The backdrop was the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and all the bus and cafe bombings.

The reporters went around and asked the families "Why did they do it?" And they asked on the street "How do these people get recruited?" for this gruesome task.

In almost every case, each bomber was bent on suicide anyway. Left to their own devices, they might have done what westerners do when they commit suicide: OD on drugs, shoot themselves, slit their wrists.

See, I was always under the impression that people become so zealous, they martyr themselves. But I'm thinking that's not always the case. Hamas was recruiting people who were suicidal ANYWAY and exploiting that weakness. The fact that they took other people with them and made a poltical statement added "valor" to the act. In that case, it's relatively easy to recruit a suicide bomber. No months of coaching or indoctrination required.

To bring it to present day, I would say that our authorities' time might better be spent looking for majorly depressed people who have suicidal thoughts, add to that a few months in a madrassa that advocates apocolyptic teachings, and you have a potent mix.

[non sociopath skin]

9. There may be some truth in this but I would want to do some serious ......

.... checking to make sure that Frontline or whoever didn't come up with this thesis and then make sure that the finished research backed it up.

Yes, I guess we have to accept that the mindset of a suicide bomber must be pretty dysfunctional. But to me, so is that of the religious zealot.

Isn't "the martyr" as likely to be driven by the blind faith that such an action will bring him/her the ultimate euphoria as s/he is by some sort of pathological death wish per se?

The bottom line is that most of us genuinely cannot understand or empathise with these people, as suggested by Hanif Kureishi in the article I mentioned above.

The Skin

[fedsron2us]

11. How much influence do Muslim leaders have ?

My impression is that many young Islamic militants regard the conventional heads of their community as sell outs. So the meeting will just be one set of establishment people talking to another. It will help in coordinating any response to the London bombings but I wonder whether it is likely to get to the root of the problem since that would mean the people involved, such as Blair, might have to take a long hard look at some of their own actions. I am not very optimistic.