"I have rights" - one of the people arrested in raids today was heard

[Benbow]

to say. Of course he does. Even if he is found to have been one of those who couldn't give a flying f*** about the right to life of other ordinary people. Isn't civilisation wonderful. No, I mean it, and I realise that I am pre-empting the police questioning of him, but imagine the self-absorption of someone who was prepared to bomb a crowded train nevertheless insisting on his rights when caught.

By all accounts, the Liverpool Street area seems to have been horribly lively this afternoon. People unable to leave their offices, or evacuated from the railway station. Horrible.

[Wickerman]

1. Or, he has the right not to be determined guilty until

so such judged by a jury of his peers.

Sadly, we have forgotten this fundamental right in our rush to not let the terrorists win. Win, in fact, they have.

[Benbow]

2. I have not forgotten innocent until proven guilty but you must

make allowances for us who have been living with an appalling and unprecedented threat - four would-be suicide bombers who were still at large, presumably with intent unaltered.

[Wickerman]

3. my apologies, I did not look a your profile

I understand you are under a large amount of duress. I also do not intend to direct my comments directly to you.

I have never been in such an environment, yet hold an unalienable belief that citizen rights should not be encroached on in times of strife no more than they should be in times of peace. Perhaps my views would change were I in the thick of it. Peace, and best wishes.

[moggie]

4. I live in London too

And I dislike your prejudice. Have you forgotten than one innocent man has already been shot dead?

[Mr Creosote]

10. I agree that he does have that right

but that right was forgotten a while ago. Don't remember anybody being too bothered about applying it to those accused of killing Stephen Lawrence.

[Briar]

11. Perhaps I have misread you

surely you are not suggesting that rights are conditional? Or is your point that in rightwing, authoritarian mindsets, absolute rights are denied to all those not deemed deserving by race, class, religion or political inclination? Those not "one of us".

If that is your point, I would agree. In a truly civilised society, human rights would be deemed inalienable and "an eye for an eye" would be dismissed as barbaric and contemptible.

[Mr Creosote]

12. Yes you have misread me

[T_i_B]

5. I read this post last night

And I thought my train ride back to Chelmsford would be utter Chaos.

Thankfully, it wasn't. And unlike previous days when major events have been happening, there weren't coppers all over all the train stations.

That aside, I think that it is best to let the dust settle for the moment before we jump to conclusions. Hopefully a trial will clear up what really went on and put a stop to the whackjob conspiracy theories.

[LeftishBrit]

6. I agree that civilization is wonderful...

and we should keep it, in spite of the threat. Otherwise the terrorists will really have won.

It looks as though this time the police acted skilfully, properly and effectively, and (not wishing to pre-empt a trial) probably caught the right people; and some real progress has been made! I hope this is really the beginning of the end of the current threat.

BTW I have relatives in London and go there frequently.

[bennywhale]

7. Even at the hight of WW2 2 days debate were dedicated in parliament

to the treatment and conditions of POW's and the interned on the Isle of white.

Someone tabled a motion having been concerned for there nutritional deficiencies.

I find that fucking beautiful and so utterly strong. The strength of democracy lies in its unflinching pursuit of "the just". Without that we lose.

I fear our values and democracy today may be proved (with a little poking) to be weak as piss

[D-Notice]

8. Nowadays

that person would be labelled a "traitor" & ripped to shreds by the tabloids :-(

[Briar]

9. Yes, he does have rights

and wouldn't it be wonderful if we really were civilised. I don't see much sign of it.