New claims emerge over Menezes death

[Briar]

(We've known about this for days, but in these paranoid, hysterical days the MSM haven't wanted to report it, and the politicians won't comment because they know The Public want anyone shot if it will make them feel safer and they don't want to surrender The Power of Nightmares. But finally it's appearing in the headlines.)

New claims emerge over Menezes death

· Brazilian was held before being shot
· Police failed to identify him
· He made no attempt to run away

Rosie Cowan, Duncan Campbell and Vikram Dodd

The young Brazilian shot dead by police on a London tube train in mistake for a suicide bomber had already been overpowered by a surveillance officer before he was killed, according to secret documents revealed last night.

...

It has now emerged that Mr de Menezes:

· was never properly identified because a police officer was relieving himself at the very moment he was leaving his home;

· was unaware he was being followed;

· was not wearing a heavy padded jacket or belt as reports at the time suggested;

· never ran from the police;

· and did not jump the ticket barrier.

But the revelation that will prove most uncomfortable for Scotland Yard was that the 27-year-old electrician had already been restrained by a surveillance officer before being shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html

[izzie]

1. Maybe he was just trying to show them his wallet?

I understand policemen sometimes get really up tight about that act.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. "failure... in police intelligence' - that about sums it up

"Clearly, there was a failure both in police intelligence and on an operational level."

Hired goons are never very bright - it's an occupational hazard but smart people just won't do the dirty work.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[mrfrapp]

3. MSM

Some of this information has only been known about for a week or so but the fact that Menezes was pinned to the ground has been known from the very moment the incident happened and was the most striking detail of the eye witness accounts. Perhaps now the MSM will cease to refer to police "marksmen".

[Mr Creosote]

9. "the fact that Menezes was pinned to the ground"

Is that a fact? According to the officer who restrained him:

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers ... I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."

and according to the man sitting opposite him

"Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me. He pointed the gun at the right hand side of the man's head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man's head when the first shot was fired."

Doesn't sound like he was restrained at all in that account. In fact, apart from the closeness of the shot it doesn't sound like the same incident.

And of course there was this:

"Mark Whitby said: "I was sitting on the train... I heard a load of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down'.

"I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.

"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.

"As got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.


"He had a baseball cap on and quite a sort of thickish coat - it was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket.


I was distraught, totally distraught. It was no less than five yards away from where I was sitting

"He might have had something concealed under there, I don't know. But it looked sort of out of place with the sort of weather we've been having, the sort of hot humid weather. "

Apart from the fact that this is a monumental fuck-up, and there's clearly a monumental cover-up going on I'm not sure we actually know any facts.

[mrfrapp]

10. Links

We don't know for a "fact" but it's something that's been mentioned in passing by the media, almost from day one. It's accepted and not been disputed as far as I know.


An article from The Idependent dated July 24th says he was "held down".

Shocked eyewitnesses had described how the victim, named as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old electrician from Brazil, who had lived in this country for three years, had the look of a cornered rabbit before officers from the elite S019 firearms unit held him down and "unloaded" five pistol shots into his head.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article301232.ece

We now know that the "five pistol shots" is erroneous of course.


The actual usage of the phrase "pinned down" was used in an article from The Times dated July 25th

Less than a minute later Mr Menezes was pinned to the floor of the carriage by two men while a third officer fired five shots into the base of his skull.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1707480,00.html

And finally, Mark Whitby's account is partially quoted in this BBC article. Although the phrase "bundled on top of" is open to interpretation.

Stockwell passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers".

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Interestingly, the BBC saw fit not to include the bit about him being "bundled on top of" in its original article covering Mark Whitby's account.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

[Mr Creosote]

11. Lies, damned lies and (un?)authorised leaks. Why I don't believe any of it

So what do we have?
We have at least 3 accounts of the shooting:
1. "He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers ... I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."

2. "Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me. He pointed the gun at the right hand side of the man's head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man's head when the first shot was fired."
(both from the "leaked" documents - quoted here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html

3. "He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand. He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him."

(here:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm)

At least 2 of these accounts MUST be false - might all be false of course.

And then we have this picture of the aftermath:
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1794292005

Now does that look like a man who has been shot in his seat (whether restrained or not), or does it look like someone who has been tripped as he ran and then shot? Looks like the latter to me.


And now here's another thing:
"The dead man, killed at Stockwell tube station on Friday after fleeing from armed police, was named as 27-year-old Jean Charles de Menezes. His body was identified by Alex Pereira, a cousin who lives in London and who afterwards told The Observer: 'I can't believe they shot him, because he was not a terrorist. He was an honest man.

'We are still too shocked to talk about it. But I am sure he didn't do anything wrong. It was not right for the police to do that.'

Pereira said that the most upsetting part of identifying his cousin was 'to see bullet wounds in his back and his neck when I went to the mortuary in Greenwich.'"

(http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1535226,00.html)

Well the problem is obvious - the man in the picture clearly has NOT been shot in the back - not if he was wearing that coat. And anyway, surely if you were identifying a body that had been shot once in the shoulder and seven times in the head surely the head wounds would be the most upsetting.

There is a hell of a lot of misinformation and covering up going on - but it seems to me that Whitby's account of the shooting, and Pereira's account of the body are broadly consistent - and neither of them has an axe to grind.

It seems to me that this leaker is not interested in the integrity of the enquiry - but is desperately trying to protect someone's back. Whose?

[Mr Creosote]

15. This has got me so wound up

two more thoughts - there are so many contradictory stories floating round - plenty of opportunity for "reasonable doubt" no matter who stands trial. And - if he was a suicide bomber in their eyes - WHERE WAS HIS RUCKSACK?

[lockdown]

16. self delete

wrong place for it :)

[Woody Box]

18. self-deleted

for wrong place

[non sociopath skin]

4. Does anyone know a good sauce to eat with crow?

I fear I may be eating considerable quantities of it when this report is published.

O tempora, o mores. :cry:

The Skin

[T_i_B]

30. How about cranberry sauce?

As the report is due out before Christmas

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4175688.stm

The Independent Police Complaints Commission will complete its probe into the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes by Christmas, an inquest has been told.
But its report will not be published until any legal and disciplinary proceedings in the case are complete.

At a hearing on Tuesday the inquest into the 27-year-old Brazilian's death was adjourned until 23 February.

Mr Menezes was shot at a Stockwell Tube station, south London, last month amid the alert following the bomb attacks.

The family of Jean Charles de Menezes are calling for a public inquiry and that might well be the best route here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4174340.stm

[mogster]

5. The criticism should be harsh

I'm good at copy'n'paste, so here are my points from the LBN thread:

1. The Met chief covered it up, with help from authorities.
There can be no doubt about this, they must have had the evidence we now see at a much earlier time.

2. The Met chief said 'This could happen again.' Now, what did he mean? Did he know the real facts about the shooting when implying that this was an excusable incident?

3. The racist implications. I know this isn't popular, but when you pick out a terrorist today, the very fact that makes him suspicious are his skin color, his foreign clothing etc. Are the harsh doctrine used in this case being amplified by the fact that the suspect are not white?

4. The release of the leak. Yes, this is no coincidence.
Today the big news will be the pullout from Gaza. If I wanted to pick a day to leak this extremely disturbing info, I would have chosen this day; good forewarning of a news story that is bound to take all attention.

[non sociopath skin]

7. In my daily email from Channel 4 news there was a one liner yesterday ...

... that a big story was about to break.

I guess that this was it.

The Skin

[mrfrapp]

6. Photographs

Despite claims from the police that the CCTVs weren't working, this leak also included photos of Menezes.

http://www.itn.co.uk/news/1677571.html

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1794292005

The claim from the police about the CCTVs was so obviously wrong it was hardly worth commenting on but here we see the confirmation that they were lying through their teeth.

[julianer]

8. That is an interesting point

The bill said just three days ago that there was no CCTV footage. Then we have this leak which completely refutes them.

This smacks of cover-up, and the leak was an attempt to undermine it. Perhaps the leaker feared for the impartiality of the enquiry.

Brave person in any case.

[lockdown]

12. Agreed on the motives,

the leaker acted in the public interest and is to be applauded.

There'd been media mention of Tube CCTV footage of de Menezes that the IPCC had looked at even before the report that most cameras weren't working. That same report was also trying to shift all blame onto officers on the scene, when the share of responsibility goes much higher. Some sources, including police sources, seem to have been keen to make sure all blame wouldn't be placed on those who were there and pulled the trigger from very early on, passing on accounts of how the decision was made higher up and details of the guidelines that leave the armed team completely dependent on what they're told to do from above.

Doubtless there's plenty not yet known, but this leak ensures much of the cover-up that was forming can't succeed.

[julianer]

13. If there is a cover-up going on

which seems likely, it must be organised from on high.

The question is: what are they trying to cover-up, if anything, beyond the actual killing?

There needs to be an investigation into this as well, IMO.

[fedsron2us]

23. British establishment rule number one in a crisis

is for those in positions of responsibility to seek to cover their arses. This has undoubtedly what has been going on since the Metropolitan Police realised that they had fucked up big time at Stockwell Tube station. Those in authority should simply admit that their intelligence operations and firearms procedures had catastrophically failed leading to the death of an innocent man. They should then hold a public enquiry to establish what went wrong and to determine how it can be prevented in the future. Instead we have the unedifying sight of senior police officials desperately scrabbling around attempting to muddy the waters of the case so that they can avoid blame and the ruin of their careers. I will make one prediction as to how this issue will pan out. All those at the top will be exonerated and the blame will be passed down the chain to the lowest ranks in the police force. If past form is anything to go by then Menezes family will have a long wait for justice.

[Mr Creosote]

14. I agree and disagree

Cover up - yes. This "leak" - part of it as far as I can see.

[julianer]

20. That would be too Machiavellian for me

I can't see how they would benefit by creating pressure on PC Blair to resign.

As we are seeing with their American soul mates, loyalty is a rare commodity with liars when they come under personal threat, so there would be a chance that others, perhaps higher still, would be caught up in it. Too risky a game, IMO.

My guess is an enquiry team member realised that a cover-up was being put in place and decided to foil it.

[evermind]

21. Well, the Scotsman mention police forensic photos of the scene

though it doesn't look like great forensic photography to me - but probably the Scotsman captured it from Channel 4's broadcast, which would explain the dodgy almost cctv-like quality.

I don't travel on the tube (I don't even visit London) - but I'd guess the angle isn't the same as one would expect from a cctv still (corrections from tube travellers welcome..)

The Guardian story ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html ) does mention cctv footage showing the denim jacket - but neglects to mention the position of the camera - however the Scotsman article talks about cctv footage from the foyer of the station, showing de Menezes picking up a free newspaper.

The police line (as per the Scotsman article) is now apparently that "most of" the cctv cameras weren't working. I guess that would include at least the ones on the train.

I wouldn't absolutely discount the idea that the police are not lying about that - but their record is not looking great at this point

[lockdown]

22. CCTV footage

This article from July 31st, fwiw, mentions footage of de Menezes' "last moments" that the IPCC have,

Gareth Peirce, one of Britain’s most prominent defence lawyers, is representing the family of de Menezes against the police. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is studying CCTV footage that caught de Menezes’s last moments. What is already clear is that the initial accounts of his death on July 22 were wrong.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1715340,00.html

From an article on the claims most cameras weren't working, there's an interesting note on what other carriage cameras did manage to catch on July 7th.

Hundreds of hours of CCTV were made available and sifted through in record time in order to release images to the public. CCTV footage had also proved crucial in identifying the suspects in the 7 July attacks. The Observer can reveal that police even found footage from train carriages showing the bombers at the moment of detonation.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1548808,00.html

[evermind]

24. Interesting, though "last moments" could stretch to the foyer footage (nt)

[lockdown]

25. True

Also, don't have links handy, but I think accounts of him picking a paper up, using his travelcard and calmly heading down the escalator have reportedly been drawn at least partly from available CCTV footage.

On edit: this link posted further up this thread mentions it for one.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1794292005

[evermind]

26. Well, now it seems the cctv tapes were blanked by the police

according to the staff maintaining the cameras.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1746975,00.html

Tube workers have challenged the police claim [that the cameras were faulty], reportedly telling investigators from the Independent Police Complaints Commission that three out of the four cameras covering the platform were definitely working on the morning of July 22.

Staff say they do not know why the camera inside the carriage would not have filmed the moments when the Brazilian electrician was shot dead by armed police.

<snip>

Scotland Yard declined to answer questions about whether the video tapes were accidentally wiped or mishandled in some way, saying the matter was in the hands of the IPCC.

<snip>

A London Underground spokesman said: “Everything now has to go to the IPCC.” However, one senior Tube official said: “What are the realistic odds of five cameras — four on the platform, one in the carriage — all being on the blink?”

Whether the cameras were working should be easy enough to determine by looking at the tapes from them immediately before and after the ones in question.

[lockdown]

27. No cover-up here, no no no

They were blank when I got 'em guv. Shit, it just keeps getting worse.

(btw, I was mentioning foyer CCTV to you further up, sorry, hadn't realised you'd already mentioned it yourself.)

[D-Notice]

31. The Independent has more

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article307649.ece

According to a report he would have passed eight cameras, two in the station entrance pointing at the barriers, another aimed at the Northern Line escalator and another on the way down.

When Mr de Menezes reached the bottom of the escalator, another camera would have captured him. And as he turned on to the platform one above the track and three more at each end of the platform would have caught him on film, the reports say.

All Northern Line Tube trains are equipped with CCTV - at either end of the carriages, but the only photograph published of the incident seems to have been taken from a doorway.

[lockdown]

32. Wondering...

It mentions entrance cameras looking in, would/does Stockwell have cameras that show the area around and outside the station entrance?

They would provide significant evidence regardless, but the main reason I ask is that some reports say the decision to stop him getting on the Tube came as he was outside/approaching the station, which perhaps would make such outside footage even more significant I think, if it existed.

[ben_packard]

28. Regarding the leaked photo...

How come most people are citing this as evidence that the CCTV was operational? There are clearly evidence markers around the body which would indicate the shot was taken some time after?

[evermind]

29. Probably because of the grainy quality, and the Scotsman

not being clear about the origin.

[Woody Box]

17. Here's a witness on BBC telling a different story:

I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun.

"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.

"As got onto the train I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

...

"He had a baseball cap on and quite a sort of thickish coat - it was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

So who is right, and :wtf: has happened?

[Woody Box]

19. Sorry, just realized this has been posted already (nT)