Help ExPats!

[smirkymonkey]

Suppose I wanted to leave the United States temporarily (i.e, until BushCo is gone for good), how would I go about it?

Can I get temporary work without being a citizen? Can I get a visa if I don't have a job (but have a little $$) to support myself for a while?

What if I married a European - do I have a right to stay in the country if things didn't work out?

I have always wanted live in Europe for a few years anyway, as I have a passion for European travel & culture. However, the political situation over the next few years may hasten my decision and I would like to figure it out before things get REALLY ugly over here.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions!

[wildmanj]

1. help

123----

[da_chimperor]

2. Well . . .

a lot depends on where you want to go, but in general and despite some exceptions, you need to have a job waiting for you. This may sound daunting, but with a little work you may be able to find one. Some people I've met travel around from country to country, and when they work, they get paid under the table. Marrying will get you a residence permit, and I think that's the case for all of the EU. My suggestions are figure out where you want to go, then get on the Internet and find some information. You can find lots with google pretty easily. Happy country hunting!

[smirkymonkey]

12. Thanks, I also wondered how I could get a job

with an American company abroad. Do they have to hire natives of the country they are in or can they hire Americans?

Although the under the table option is pretty good too, I know a lot of Europeans living here in NY do that as well.

[da_chimperor]

15. Companies within the EU can generally hire anyone they want

It depends country by country, but it's basically the same for most of Europe with some exceptions. For example, it's nearly impossible for an American to get a job in Switzerland. Firstly, because the swiss government makes it harder for Americans on purpose because they don't like some US policies, or so they told me when I tried to get a job there. Secondly, a swiss company can only hire a foreigner if they can not find a suitable swiss applicant.

I think it mostly depends on your language skills. What kind of languages can you speak? Anything special? :D

[smirkymonkey]

17. German and a bit of French.

But willing to learn others! What if Bush wins, do you think the Swiss government would take us on the grounds of political asylum?

A lot of us don't like our government either. Sounds like the husband route might be a bit easier :)

Also, I am willing to be adopted. I could always nanny or be a cabana girl or something if things over here got really desperate!

[da_chimperor]

18. I'm not sure about political asylum

You could try . . . but I don't think they'll be that sympathetic. :( I think you have to be persecuted rather than oppressed, embarrassed, or terrorized. It would probably be easiest just to try and get a residence permit elsewhere in the EU, so Austria or Germany in your case. The Netherlands is also a possibility, because quite a few companies over here have English as the official language of the company. If you're trying to find a husband . . . you can always put yourself on ebay. :) I don't know how well it would work out though. Out of curiosity, what is a cabana girl anyway?

[smirkymonkey]

19. Well usually, it's cabana BOY, which is

by definition:

Main Entry: cabana boy
Function: noun
Definition: a young man who works at a resort or popular vacation spot, often making a lot of money for jobs like serving alcoholic drinks.

but sometimes it implies a kept man, living the high life, usually in the "employ" of a sugar daddy.

Not that I would do that, it was kind of a joke :)

[da_chimperor]

20. See, that's what I was thinking

at least the part about having a sugar daddy. And i'm confident you would have neither a sugar daddy nor a sugar mama. ;)

[gigantor]

32. Caveats...

"Companies within the EU can generally hire anyone they want". This is a bit misleading. They can hire whoever they want, as long as the prospective employee has EU nationality. If the applicant doesn't, then whole work permit process kicks in. If they're wanting to hire a non-EU employee, they need to prove that the required talent doesn't exist in-country and in the EU. If you've got a niche talent, that shouldn't be problematic, however, if you're say, a Java programmer, they'll have a bit of work proving scarcity, as there are loads of unemployed Java programmers withing the EU. Many companies nowadays just don't want the extra hassle of dealing with work permits, but large companies often will do it.

It will also depend on the country you choose to work in. For example, French companies tend to prefer French nationals, or Belgians. French-speakers, that is. Also, French companies tend to value academic qualifications gained at French institutions over those obtained elsewhere. I've heard time and again from UK colleagues that they'd applied for positions in France and the employer completely disregarded their UK academic qualifications as being less worthy than the very same ones acquired in France. It can be a difficult market to get into. Note that I'm talking about professional and technical spots.

Other 'subtle' ways they are starting to use to lock out non-EU or non-native applicants are to demand native fluency in the local language. 5 years ago, this was fairly rare, but I note that nowadays, even here in the Netherlands, it's becoming more common to demand native fluency in Dutch (my field is IT). Even though I've lived here seven years, my Dutch isn't native (and likely never will be), so...

But, I don't see the Swiss particularly discriminating against Americans. It may appear so if you're the one being rejected, but the Swiss seem to simply have a Germanic mindset where it comes to folks trying to work there. They have a given set of criteria and by God, you'd best adhere to them if you want a work permit. They just benignly discriminate against everyone who's not Swiss, no hard feelings intended. :-) I've heard this over and over, even from EU citizens that wanted to work there. It's been just about as difficult for EU nationals as others to work there.

Over the last year or so, progress has been made which will allow the free movement of labor from/to Switzerland and the EU. But, the basic rule seems to be that if you're degreed, and have solid experience within your field, you can get a work permit there, if you're willing to play their game. Large banks in Switzerland do often hire from outside the country, many times you don't even need to speak one of their four official languages. Check out the jobserve site I mentioned earlier and search for Switzerland to see what I mean.

[smirkymonkey]

49. Update...

I have found out that I actually qualify for Italian citizenship, since my paternal grandfather was not naturalized as a US citizen until after my father was born, and my father never formally renounced citizenship.

It's a matter of getting the documentation together, which is kind of a pain, but I would appreciate any advice on finding birth, death & marraige certificates both here and in Italy. Thanks.

[da_chimperor]

51. That's good news, congrats!

That's a nice place to flee to. I love italy. :D

[gigantor]

28. Going to the EU (Dutch version)

There seems to be a bit of, well, misinformation going through the thread. What I'll try to explain is really based on my own experiences in coming to the Netherlands, as a US citizen, on my own, seven years ago and how I went about it successfully.

First off, each country in the EU still retains its own immigration rules/policies and they do vary from country to country, situation to situation, and importantly, from time to time. It's always wisest to check out the immigration/embassy website for the intended country and see what the current situation is. They're trying to come to a common sort of policy, but it isn't there yet. As an example, the Netherlands will readily recognize relationships such as married folks (ie, marrying someone and obtaining a residency permit on that basis), but they also recognize long standing partnerships, whether traditional male-female, but also same-gender relationships. You just need to show you've been a pair for a reasonable amount of time. Likely meeting someone on the plane on the way over won't work too well. Now, that's the Netherlands. I suspect claiming a longstanding gay relationship wouldn't go over too well in, say, Spain, or the other southern EU countries. Just remember, each country is different. Some are easier than others.

Each country issues their own work permits based on the local market. The permit is only good for the country it's issued in. That is, when I received my work permit in the Netherlands, it wasn't any good for working in Germany. Work permits are requested by your prospective employer. You can't do it on your own behalf. The way it works is, you apply for a job, whether here or in the states, if you have an offer, the employer then applies to the local labor authorities on your behalf. The process is, in concept, similar to the US H1B visa. If you get the permit, you can then apply for a residence permit. In the Netherlands, that's generally for a year, but the local foreigner police has the ability to only issue it for the length of the proposed employment. That would say, that if you have a 6 month contract, they have the option of only issuing your permit for six months. It's up the local police to determine that, so it's a good thing to be polite and friendly and leave the occasionally seen American attitude of "hey, public servant, I pay your taxes; you work for me!" back home in the states. Note, that you can appeal unfavorable decisions to the immigration and naturalization ministry.

You should note that with the economic downturn of late, work permits have gotten fairly difficult to obtain. The employer has to demonstrate that there are 1) no locals able to do the job 2) there's no one in the EU for the work and that 3) you're their only option. A few years ago, it was pretty easy to do all that, but nowadays, with unemployment in Germany running 10% and France not too far behind, it's gotten a whole lot tougher the last couple of years. Again, that's not to say it can't be done, but it really helps if you have a transferable talent in short supply.

Another option would be finding a US company willing to transfer you here for a period. I don't know how common it is for US companies to hire Americans in Holland. My wife, coincidently, works for a large US company (was recruited as a local), but when they require a native English speaker, they simply hire someone from the UK. It's far simpler for them as UK nationals are EU, of course, and have the right to work and live freely here. Cheaper, too, as they don't have to pay an exorbitant ex-pat salary package as they would if they are transferring a US employee.

I would strongly not recommend working in the black market. Employers that employ black workers risk significant fines in doing so. They know that, and so, if you and they risk it, you can bet what you get paid isn't going to be much. Besides, the risk of getting deported just isn't worth it. And yes, the foreign police -do- perform sweeps to catch illegal workers here in the Netherlands. It's a real problem here and they're trying pretty hard to correct it.

OK, after three years of legal employment in the Netherlands, you no longer need to have a work permit to work. You can freely take any job you're offered. However, you still need to renew your residency permit annually, at least, and prove you have a way to support yourself for the requested period. Perhaps at that time, you've found an employed partner, too. That makes things easier.

After five legal years in the Netherlands, you can apply for a permanent residence permit. It's not automatic, and you still need to prove you have a way to support yourself, but if you can do that, you're in, basically for life. Note, though, that until you naturalize as Dutch, your much-valued permanent residency permit is only good for the Netherlands, as long as the Netherlands is where you live. It isn't a passport. It doesn't give you the same rights move where you like or want to work, as would an EU passport. If you decide that you want to work in Luxembourg, for example (great income taxes there, nearly none, attractive place to be!), you would have to apply for another work permit, residency permit, etc. in Luxembourg.

Also, at the five year mark, you can apply for Dutch naturalization. Currently, the process takes anywhere from 1-2 years to complete. Also, current Dutch law does not allow dual nationality, that is, you have to formally renounce your US citizenship in front of a US consular official. I think the Department of State has a section on their website on how the process is done, and especially what the ramifications can be. Such as, not being allowed to ever return to the US, even for a visit. Serious stuff there. The only exceptions to the renunciation stuff that I know of now, is if your native country doesn't recognize renunciation (for example, India), if you're a minor (the US doesn't allow a child to renounce, or their parents to do it on their behalf), or if it would cause significant financial harm to do so. I don't really understand that last clause, but that's what was explained to me.

If I remember correctly, marriage or a permanent relationship can cut the amount of time required to apply to naturalize to three years. Having a child in the Netherlands won't help much either. The child doesn't get Dutch nationality automatically, and will have yours until it is naturalized (normally when you do the deed). Other countries do award nationality based on birthplace (Spain and the UK I believe still do), but like the US, that won't really change your personal status.

Each country has their own requirements for naturalization and they are different.

Be sure to check into whether your grandparents or parents immigrated from a given Euro land. There are a number of countries that allow you to be given citizenship based on your grandparents/parents being born in the EU country. Ireland and Italy immediately spring to mind, and I understood that Germany had (perhaps still has) a sort of 'right of return' for persons of German descent. I know a fellow here who had one set of grandparents from Ireland, another from Italy, applied for citizenship from both, was given both, arrived here and bypassed most of the paperwork. Residency and work permits just weren't a problem. Best of all, once he'd left the US for good, he simply let his US passport lapse, bypassing the renunciation step.

Anyway, all of that is based on what I've gleaned from living here for a number of years, going through the system and loads of chats with the foreign police, as well as fellow ex-pats. It can be done, but you've got to be a bit persistent, and it's always best to play by the rules.

A good place to start looking for jobs/contracts in the EU is: www.jobserve.com . It's a website in the UK, but has bunches of jobs for the continent as well as Australia and NZ. Unless you read Dutch, local websites will be of limited use. Might try www.monsterboard.nl . Sometimes they post English language jobs. Also, if I remember right, you automatically have a 90 day visa free entry to the EU. Probably not strictly kosher, but I imagine you could just come and try to convince someone to hire you/sponsor your work permit. It's not the way I would do it, though, if I was looking to truly emigrate, but each to their own.

Best of luck, and feel free to ask questions, or correct me, if I've made mistakes :-) If there are mistakes, they were well-intentioned or something.

[smirkymonkey]

29. That's great! Thanks.

My Dutch and English ancestors have been in this country for a number of generations, but my paternal grandparents came over from Italy through Ellis island.

Italy wouldn't be my first choice, but it's an option if things get bad enough.

I really appreciate your post. Thanks again! :)

[Kellanved]

3. well

It depends on the country where you want to go. Usually a work permit is only good for one EU member nation, only citizenship would allow you to work and live in any EU country.
Getting a work permit can be difficult, usually the employer takes care of it. It should be possible to get a residence permit though.

Marriage will give you citizenship after a few years . The exact rules depend on the country (for example eight years in Germany; I believe there is a four year option with a few strings attached).

Expatica is a pretty good resource, also many EU nations have an info-page .

http://www.expatica.com/
www.germany-info.org/
...

[smirkymonkey]

13. Thanks for the sites and info!

My brother and his wife lived in Germany for a while and I have lived in Austria (school) so I speak some German, aber nicht zu gut!

Thanks again for the resources!

[J.C.M.]

4. Why so Far?

C'mon up to Canada, eh? If you look anything like your picture you'll have no problem getting married to a Canuck!

JCM

[smirkymonkey]

9. Very funny!

I am a bit taller and better looking than my picture would imply.

[EricL]

5. You may want to visit

The web sites of the embassies of the european countries you're interested in ( http://www.info-france-usa.org/visitingfrance/ for instance)

The Delegation of the European Commission to the United States http://www.eurunion.org/ may also have usefull informations.

:hi:

[smirkymonkey]

14. Thanks - great sites!

and welcome to DU, Eric! :hi:

[Munk]

25. expatica

smirky,

I would take expatica with a grain of salt. I just banned myself from that place, they have some good info re. relocation but their boards are loaded with negativity and Bush lovers...YUCK!

[Art_from_Ark]

6. What about Japan?

If you had a Japanese spouse, you could easily work in Japan if you had a college degree. Things are fairly sensible over here, and there is national health insurance.

You could also look into getting a cultural visa (to study at some cultural institution) if you wanted to stay in the country more than 3 months without having a job or a Japanese spouse.

The country does take some getting used to, however, but if you're young and flexible, you could probably adapt.

[ShinPath]

8. Japan

Well, forget about living in a "free country..."
If there is one motto I've learned about Japan in 16 years
(at least among the Japanese is) "Never Question Authority!"

[smirkymonkey]

10. I've heard they aren't very friendly to "gaijin"

and being blond & blue eyed I would stick out like a sore thumb. Any truth to that?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. I've never had any significant problems

:shrug:

Of course, I haven't lived there for 27 years, but I've spent up to three months there.

[raye1]

7. reply "help expats"

smirkymonkey all I can say is that I am very happy to be a dual citizen and am able to live in Switzerland with my children.

I have lived here for the past 15 years and I can tell you that I don't known what I would do if I had to raise my children under the current conditions in the states.

I have loads of girlfriends back home that ask me to set them up with a European guy , so they can get the hell out of dodge!

Its really sad how our image has been tarnished by this undemocratically elected official. I can not give "him" the honor of putting the P word(President) next to this idiots name! At times when I hear and see him on television I want to crawl under a rock.

But I must honestly say , its also not a good time to be an ex pat either. Often times we are blamed for what the idiot is doing back home! Whenever possible I travel with my Swiss passport or ID card.
I am sure that when he is defeated in November you wont feel the need to "have" to leave your country!

What kind of democracy is it , when the citizens have no more faith or hope in their own country?

I think America is the best place in the world to live , but our form of government is starting more and more to resemble a dictatorship (good that the vice idiots name is Dick) than a democracy!

At least the majority of Europeans can say that they actually elect by a true popular vote their leaders.

Instead of trying to outlaw gay marriages and adding an amendment to the constitution; we need to do something about that so called electoral college . The current system is only a failsafe device to keep women and other ethnic groups in the states from being able to participate and be duly elected.

But if you must leave then come on over to Switzerland where you are by law assured of health insurance from your employer, at least 4 weeks paid vacation, a real contract where your boss can't just fire you because his ass itched in a strange place that day. And best of all, after 5 years of marriage you get to have the Swiss pass and keep your American one in the bargin!

[smirkymonkey]

11. I love Switzerland!

I studied in Austria and did some skiing in Switzerland. It's so beautiful and clean. Perfect location and neutral too! It's very expensive though, at least it used to be.

Well, let me know if you hear of any opportunities! Thanks!

P.S. Embarrassing story - one of my college nicknames was "Swiss Miss" because I look very nordic and I used to wear these alpine jackets/sweaters that I had purchased in Austria. ugh!

[da_chimperor]

16. I thought that marriage only granted you permanent residence

And that it would take another 5 to 10 years for you to get citizenship, but sometimes more dependent on the approval of the community.

[CiCi the Psychobunny]

21. Surprise surprise

Here's CiCi to plug NZ.
Marrying a Kiwi will get you citizenship, we don't much care about dual citizenship (hell, I know people with triple citizenship), and if white and skilled a) Immigration will like you and b) you won't be subject to the horrible anti-Asian-immigration redneck sh*t we have.
Also, we have actual democracy. And aren't French. In fact, we make better wine than the French :evilgrin:

[smirkymonkey]

22. Sounds good!

:)

[Munk]

24. Not being French is a requirement?

CiCi,

First day on this board (I am a refugee of expatica which is now overgrown with Bush Lovers).

I didn't realize not being French was a pre-requisite for finding a good place to expat to :(

Citizenship in a EU country is much easier than getting US citienship believe me. It took almost 3 years to get my green card (eventhough my mother married an American while I was still minor) and my recent attempt to renew it after 10 years got me an official reply via mail that it would take up to 430 days!!!

SO you don't like the French (nor the Asians apparently) wow...such negativity...

Seriously enough with the French bashing...what grade are we in again???

[gigantor]

33. French Bashing?

Spend a few years over here in Europe, and you'll get an earful of 'name your country' bashing.

For instance, get to know Dutchmen and ask them about Germans; you'll learn that the Germans are horrible to vacation near (generally true), and that they still want their stolen bicycles back from the war.

Don't even get them started on tourists from Russia or the former eastern bloc...

I have a dear friend who vacations each year in France, and when asked, she'll say she goes there because it's beautiful country, food is great, but, if only there were no French people there.... "They are just so damned rude!" And this from a Dutch person.

The Dutch regard the Belgians as stupid, and I'm sure the feeling is reciprocated. No hard feelings.

Many Europeans resent the French and Germans as bullies, trying to jam their agendas down the throats of the smaller countries.

The Dutch are often regarded by other Europeans as 'the Americans of Europe', that is, no culture, no class, no history.

So, no, bashing the French isn't a new thing, or a particularly American thing. Everyone does it :-) Even here in Europe. It's really hard not to do, when the French make themselves such easy targets :-)

Lighten up, eh?

[smirkymonkey]

50. Actually, I noticed the same thing as I lived w/ an Austrian

family and spent time with a lot of Europeans and heard their opinions of each other. There is definitely a Germany/Netherlands mutual un-admiration society. The Germans I spent time w/ called the Dutch "cheese pokers" and they also hated the French. The Dutch people I encountered couldn't stand the Germans and still thought of them as Nazis.

The French pretty much seemed to insult everybody, especially the Germans and the English (and of course, the Americans). Never really got close enough to any Italians to observe their predjudices. The Greeks I spoke to hated the Lebanese and the Turks. The English people I knew couldn't stand the French. On and on. Predjudice does not seem limited to any one culture or nationality. Of course there are people in every country who don't feel this way, but they are not the ones who are very vocal about it.

[Polly Glot]

26. I spent the summer of 1998 in Haarlem, NL...

... and I can tell you that even though unemployment in the Netherlands, as well as in most of the rest of Europe, was really really low, it was excruciatingly difficult to get the work permit needed to work there legally as a solo American. I was fortunate to acquire work in Amsterdam although I was doing so "under the table." After a couple of months my boss, a friend of a friend of mine, just freaked out about the possibility of being discovered by the "vreemdelingenpolitie" and terminated my pseudo-employment. In any event, it was a great time and I totally loved it over there and would move back in a heartbeat. Some things to consider...

If you are a young college grad you could look into teaching English abroad. Try http://www.eslcafe.com for a long list of job postings and experiences from other English teachers. You have to be single and not have children for most, if not all, jobs so that's out for me.

You could also look into self-employment which is, as far as I can tell, a far easier avenue to living in Europe. You could be a self-employed nearly-anything and cut through the red tape much more easily this way. This avenue is something my hubby and I are seriously looking into whether shrub gets reselected or not.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck... :)

[smirkymonkey]

30. Actually, I was in Haarlem, NL a few years ago and

thought, "what a liveable place". I am a college grad, but the self-employment might be the way to go.

[gigantor]

34. Harlem -is- lovely

Other places in the Netherlands that I personally find great:

Delft. Just outside of The Hague (there's a tram, the number 1, that runs from Delft right into the center of The Hague, good for work prospects). An old town, loads of history and architecture, also, as it's a university town, there's a good nightlife, good restaurants and generally foreigner-tolerant atmosphere. I lived there for two years and would have bought a home there, had the housing prices been reasonable. Housing costs can be steep, as it is a desirable place to live. It's close to The Hague, and about an hour by train from Amsterdam, so even that's commutable.

Utrecht. Sits in the center of The Netherlands, lovely old city, pretty architecture, lots of modern stuff outside of the city center, some large companies are headquartered there. Job opportunities. Cost of living tends to be lower than Amsterdam. Because it's central, it's easy to commute to either Amsterdam or The Hague.

Amsterdam is great to visit, but I'd never live there. The crime level is high, it's expensive, dirty and frankly, there are too many foreigners there. Besides, Amsterdam isn't the Netherlands, as many of my Dutch friends say.

Myself, I live in a tiny village in South Holland. We have a 4 bedroom detached home on a large plot of land and the cost was quite reasonable. We're 30 minutes from Rotterdam, 30 minutes from Utrecht and about an hour or so from Amsterdam. Close enough to the cities, but far enough away that we completely miss the crime, etc. I know all of my neighbors, we can leave the doors unlocked, it's still common for neighbors to just walk in uninvited for coffee and chatting. Kind of like small town America in the 50's. Cool.

[smirkymonkey]

35. Where you live sounds wonderful!

That is like the town I grew up in, a little old village settled by the Dutch called Barneveld in upstate New York - It was named after Barneveld, NL (apparently the town is famous for it's chickens over there :))

I agree w/ you on Amsterdam, it's just this big international party, I didn't really get a sense of Dutch culture there, so I was glad we stayed in Haarlem.

I also read this book while I was there called "100 Ways to Get Along With the Dutch" written by a Dutch businessman, and it could have been titled "100 Ways to Get Along w/ Smirkymonkey" because I completely related to their customs and personal views on life.

What is the name of your town? To me, an hour to get to a major city is nothing - especially by train. I travel hours just to visit my family here and we are all NY & CT.

[gigantor]

39. re: where I live

I've promised my neighbors never to disclose the location our little corner of paradise. They don't want any more foreigners here, except for my wife and I :-) We seem to be enough for their tastes. (check the profile)

Barneveld is a very pretty place, too. It's got lots of trees, pretty landscape, and there are several larger companies located there (Baan, etc). Easily commutable to Amsterdam. I don't know about the chickens, though... Fairly spendy place to live, too.

Another good book to read about the foiables of Dutch living is 'The UnDutchables'. (www.undutchables.nl) Hilarious, and all true. Best of all, when my Dutch friends read it, they just don't get it. Mostly because it is all true. But, they do describe some of the oddities of life here in a fun fashion. And the Dutch are odd, in a nice sort of way. Very nice people to know and live with.

Never been to NY or Connecticut, kinda wish I had while I still lived in the states. Lived in Annapolis, MD years ago, attending the boat school there, but never made it up north. Spent loads of time in the Norfolk area (duh), and North and South Carolina, but not much else on the east coast. I'm from the West Coast, myself.

[Canadian_moderate]

47. Must be close to where I lived

I was born and grew up in a small village in the Alblasserwaard, close to Dordrecht and Gorinchem. Rotterdam is about 20 minutes to the west and Utrecht was 40 minutes to the north east. Not many foreigners living there either, but quite diverse in the larger towns and cities.

Real estate prices have escalated quite a bit though. Most decent houses are now over 250,000 euros and that doesn;t give you much space.

[Polly Glot]

44. I'm a college grad too, but with a useless degree...

(Spanish)...

Nevertheless, my hubby and I are working towards the Dutch self-employment angle. Anyone know if they need any good landscapers anywhere in Holland?

My dream is to open a humble taco stand on or near the Leidseplein or the business district in A'dam Southeast. As much as I adore Haarlem, not sure what our degree of success would be operating a food stand there. I met a Canadian who owned a falafel stand in downtown Haarlem, must look him up next time we go (if it's still there).

Now we just have to save our (non-existant) money...!!

[Blue_Tires]

27. i guess i'm trying to get out, too

still trying to decide where and how

[gigantor]

31. Ho-ho-ho!

Ah, then you've got it made, old man. See, if you look closer at my posting, you'll note that by having the Italian grandparent, you should be able to claim Italian citizenship. That's the key! You don't have to live in Italy just because you are Italian! It's a great place to visit, but I prefer the northern European areas, myself.

Once you have your freshly minted Italian passport in hand, you can legally live and work anywhere in the EU! One more time, just for emphasis, anywhere! :-) It's the same principle that gives my daughters US nationality. They were born here in the Netherlands, have never lived in the states, but they claimed (through me) US citizenship. While I don't expect that they'll ever live in the states, they still have that option, if they want.

You won't have to go through the work permit process. You can simply work where you like over here.

If I were you, I'd hie myself off to the web page for the Italian embassy in DC, find a phone number or address for the consular section, and start the process for applying for Italian nationality. There's likely to be a minimal cost involved, but it's definitely worth it in the long run.

Best of luck, sounds like you've got it made!

[smirkymonkey]

36. That's a great idea - I had no idea it would be so easy

due to the fact that my Grandparents came from Italy. I prefer Northern Europe as well, it suits my personality much better. Southern Europeans seem a little too conservative for me in general.

I will check out the Italian Embassy - I have actually found the records of my Grandparents through the Ellis Island website.

How is the cost of living in Holland anyway? What is the standard of living like? Also, are you an American by birth? How did you end up in Holland? Thanks!

[gigantor]

38. re: the great idea

The cost of living in Holland is fairly high, in my opinion. Again, it depends on where you live and how you want to live. If you're outside the big cities, it's quite do able. If you live like the Dutch do, you'll have no problems. The ones I've seen that have problems, are the ones that insist on living live they do back home, in the US or the UK. The key is to do like the Dutch, are you'll be fine.

The standard of living here is excellent. If you're looking for cheap, the countries in the south of the EU are the place to go, though, wages are also lower.

Yes, I'm American by birth. I ended up here by pure blind good luck. I took a job with a company here (found on jobserve, btw), intending to stay 6 months, just for grins, and ended up loving the place so much that I stayed. I'm afraid I'll never go back to the states, now. Well, at least not the states as they are now.

Good luck with the Embassy. Wish I could help further there, but I'm sure they will be able to steer you in the right direction.

[smirkymonkey]

42. Thanks for all your help and input!

After reading the Unductchables website about Dutch culture, not so sure I would want to live there anymore! Well, I guess no place is ideal. :)

[Polly Glot]

45. Don't be put off by the Undutchables...

They are pretty tongue-in-cheek about the Dutch. I think there's a lot of truth about what the authors say but they do exaggerate (for entertainment purposes only). For example, yes, on the Dutch train system when you are seated closest to the door you are literally somehow the last person to be able to get off the train. I found that to be entirely too true! However, so what... you still do get off the train no problem.

The bathrooms are claustrophobic but hey, it's a small country. It is like living in a dollhouse sometimes. If you can make do in an airplane lavatory, or New York City, you will have no problem in the Netherlands.

And the open spaces in the country are very easily accessible by train or car.

IMHO, there are wonderful people to be found all over the world. But the Dutch are some of the friendliest, most direct, tolerant, and hospitable people I've ever met. I made more lifelong friends in Holland during my 4 month stay there than I have made in the several years I have lived in my current home.

[Blue_Tires]

37. now that i've thought about it

and done some prelim research, this is the list of countries i'm thinking about going to:

Brazil
Argentina
Scotland
Sweden
Australia
New Zealand
Spain
France
Germany
Holland
Denmark
Belgium
Thailand

Brazil, Sweden, and Australia are my top three choices as it stands...any suggestions or first-hand accounts are appreciated...

I'm 28 years old, and have been employed the last three years as a journalist...i don't have much $$$$, and i have no real connections that would keep me here in the U.S. unfortunately, my language skills are minimal (working on that)

and advice is appreciated....TIA

[gigantor]

40. Narrow down

You really need to narrow down your preferences.

Even within Europe, the requirements for immigrating here vary so wildly from country to country, that it's nearly impossible to advise you.

From Brasil to Thailand to Denmark? Figure out which country you really want to live in, and then you have a better chance of getting good advice. Best of all, figure out why you would want to go to these places. If you've no appreciable language skills, it's going to be very difficult to find work, not to mention just exist in a foreign place. If you're looking for freedom of expression, why in God's name would you pick Brasil or Thailand?

But, that in mind, Denmark is going to be very hard to go to. They're having incredible amounts of trouble with their Muslim immigrants, and as a result, are basically shutting down immigration, or making it very difficult to go there.

Holland is in the same situation. As is Belgium. No idea about the rest.

Best of luck.

[Blue_Tires]

41. more info

ok...then the top choices are Brazil, Australia/NZ, the U.K., and Sweden, probably in that order...discard the rest

Brazil is top of the list because i already know a little of the language, and have researched it the most...It also has hundreds of millions of black people, which will make me feel more comfortable (i'm also black), and i already have a couple of friends living there...

i'm looking obviously for a place that's more liberal than we are now, and someplace warm (preferably)

[Blue_Tires]

43. any advice?

[demmutti]

46. What about Canada?

I know Canada has its own forum on this website, and maybe I haven't read through all of these replies carefully enough to notice any mention of it in this thread, but I'm an older (38) version of smirkymonkey. Having grown up in many countries and now temporarily trapped in Indiana, I am also planning to make an international move within the next few years (I want my 2 boys to graduate from high school first--it's an international, trilingual school with 50+ nationalities represented--before leaving the US. (They will both receive International Baccalaureates as seniors, which will qualify them to attend universities in Europe or Canada...possibly even Asia. And they both plan to head for Europe, probably France.)

My question is why Canada hasn't been mentioned as a viable place for you to relocate? It may seem too 'American' on the surface, but I've taken my family to Montreal and Quebec City (not to mention the Quebec boonies) numerous times since they were little, and I've also travelled there alone. Neither city feels North American to me, and Montreal is a particularly vibrant,liberal city loaded with cultural diversity and smart, friendly people. Speaking French helps, but I've traveled there with non-French speakers before, and they were treated very respectfully.

You probably know this, but Canada has an exceptionally low crime rate, universal health care, and is socially extremely liberal (gay marriage, for example, became legal during the Trudeau years.) Secessionist tensions have abated. It's a wonderful place to live whether or not you have kids, whether or not you're single or married...you'll bump into a much higher proportion of progressive thinkers than in the US. You can still easily visit your family in the NY/CT area (a few hours' drive), and there are direct flights to all major European cities.

My understanding is that you must live in Canada for three years before becoming eligible to apply for permanent citizenship.

Just some food for thought. I'm an incurable Europhile, but Montreal feels so European to me that I could happily live there. For me, it will probably come down to a choice between France and Canada.

Bonne chance!

[Blue_Tires]

48. how warm is it?