Guys...

[foreigncorrespondent]

...we have now been hit with the offensive shit happening around the board. According to someone on these boards (re talking about the terrible violence shown at Cronulla beach in Sydney this weekend) we are a bunch of "uncivilized convicts."

You bet your arse I have alerted on it. And if this doesn't get removed then DU is not the place for me any longer. You also bet I blasted the fucking little bastard for being so offensive.

I also want to take this time to publicly thank Sapphocrat for coming in our defense in that thread. She will make a fine Aussie one day. :)

Not linking to the thread for obvious reasons, but I am sure you will find it.

[Sapphocrat]

1. Just when I think...

...you could never say anything nicer to me than you already have, you do. Your confidence in my ability to overcome the handicap of my nationality and be a fine Aussie one day I take as a high compliment. ;)

I can't let anti-Aussie sentiment pass by. And while it certainly has a lot to do with the fact that I'm practically married to an Aussie, it's only partly on your behalf alone, believe it or not: What surprises me is that when I see a slam against Australia in general, I get the very same white-hot flash of anger I do when somebody slams gay people.

I guess you bloody Aussies have gotten so far under my skin, it's practically a gene-splice! LOL

As long as there's nothing about cricket on the citizenship test...

[foreigncorrespondent]

2. Of course...

...you are going to make a fine Aussie some day. I wouldn't say it, it I truly believe it. I see how proud you are of not just your own country, but Australia too. I also see how arched up you get at how the Coward government is ruining this country.

I know what you mean about the white-hot flash of anger. I get it as well when people slam America and American's.

No cricket on the citizenship test. LOL

[no safe haven]

4. Sapphocrat,

You know what, Oz will be lucky to have you, despite your being cricket deficient. Thanks for sticking up for us convicts – I missed the thread, but it’s nothing I haven’t heard many times before.

What a lot of you guys forget is that Virginia was a penal colony up until the War of Independence, and if I’m not mistaken, Georgia was a place England sent debtors.

Those of us with convict ancestors are proud of the fact. Just look at what they built out of their blood and sweat. Nothing to be ashamed of there. I think they got the better deal – decent weather, the outdoor life, room to move, South Pacific cruise…..

[Sapphocrat]

6. That warms my heart.

Thank you, nsf. :)

Oh, I never forget about the "convict origins" in the U.S. -- mainly because I have no ties whatsoever to the Southern U.S., or early America at all: my family only "got offa da boat" around 1900. That's not a terribly "united" attitude for me to have, but it's become increasingly difficult for me to refrain from drawing the line between "us and them" when my country is divided as if somebody cut it in half with a knife.

I understand why many Aussies are proud to be able to trace convict ancestors. It is a badge of honour, and I'm amazed by the society Australia has built in less than half the time the U.S. has been in existence. I also think that has a lot to do with the way Australia is generally better at practicing certain "American" ideals that are really only theory here. I think anybody who's kicked around unfairly for a long time (I've seen the old-school condescension of poms in action) either ends up incredibly bitter and hostile -- or they develop a unique brand of compassion for anyone else in a similar situation. There's a reason the concept "fair go" is unique to Australia; the idea is spoken of in America, but seldom practiced.

At the same time, the "convict" label rankles me when it's used pejoratively by a non-Aussie. I don't like it any better than when a Brit patronizingly calls Americans "colonists"; sure, we started out as a British colony, and there's much to be proud of in the way early American pioneers carved their place out of the wilderness -- but it's the 21st century, not the 17th. I feel like saying, "You're just pissed because we kicked your butts out in 1776" -- with a little help from the French -- "so get over yourselves -- the sun has set!" LOL

[no safe haven]

12. You have the fair go concept down to a tee

(No golf or sports related reference intended, I promise) ;-) You understand pretty well what we’re about – don’t like authority, particularly from some toffee nosed git acting all superior. But then, who does? We used not to mind spreading the wealth around, good social services and all that, until Howard came along and made it practically illegal to have any sort of social welfare agenda. It took us a long time to get a ‘fair go’ for the underdog as a national policy, although it was always part of the subculture from the earliest of times.

I have 3 convict ancestors transported to these fair shores. One was a pickpocket who got 7 years; another was sentenced to be hanged for grand larceny but had his sentence commuted to life in exile at the last moment; and a 15-year-old girl who was transported for stealing a ribbon. It’s hard to imagine their lives. The young girl didn’t live too long. She was forcibly married off to the grand larcenist, who may or may not have been a kind man, and endured a meagre and harsh existence. But thanks to her sacrifices, I exist. Which sort of represents why many of us here realise how fragile life is, how the ironies of life can bode well or ill, and that ultimately, it’s all just a case of ‘no worries, mate.’ :beer:

[Violet_Crumble]

3. I saw it before it got zapped...

And after seeing Sapphocrat's response, she's definately on my list of wonderful people. Thanks, Sapphocrat!

You know what's one of the irritating things about sentiments like that post? I've got two convict ancestors, and I got the impression people with the attitude displayed in that post think it's something to be ashamed of - it's not. I'd encountered this sort of attitude from one now-tombstoned DUer, who started appearing in threads and making really nasty broad-brush generalisations about Australians, and I found that Skinner and the mods come down heavy on it when it happens...

Violet...

[foreigncorrespondent]

5. I know what you mean, VC!

I don't have convicts in my family tree, but I do have New Zealand pioneers (3rd generation Aussie on both sides.) And regardless, for me, that is something to be proud of.

I was very angry when I saw what the jerk off had said. I am very proud of the history Australia has. And in all honesty, I was and still am in many ways very proud of this country. We are currently lead by a brute, but that does not change the past. That does not change what Burke and Wills did, or the convicts, or the WWI returning soldiers who built (by hand) the Great Ocean Road, or those who fought during the two great wars to secure the freedoms we enjoyed up until the anti terror laws passed.

Unfortunately a drop kick like that doesn't have enough pride in his own country to truly understand how people can truly be proud in their nation. While not displaying the false patriotism many right wing Americans display.

That post (along with mine) has been deleted now, and I am truly thankful to that moderator. I needed to say what I said, and whether the jerk saw it or not doesn't worry me. I got it off my chest and feel a lot better for doing so.

On edit: typo

[Sapphocrat]

7. Thanks, VC!

That means a lot to me. :)

You hit the nail on the head: There's nothing shameful about Aussie convict origins; the thing that pisses me off is when somebody tries to make it sound shameful. It's like when some RWer spits out "Bleeding-heart liberal!" -- my reaction is: "You say that like it's a bad thing."

Interestingly, that LBN thread has gotten a bit longer, thanks to a brand-new Aussie DUer (9 posts) who replied to me and basically said, "Thanks, but we don't need your help -- Aussies have a great sense of humour about the convict thing." So I went back and did my best to explain just what you've said here. I only wish I'd read your post first for some extra ammo.

The exchange with the newbie wasn't unpleasant for me (so far) -- but it illustrates the interesting limbo I live in between Australia and the U.S. I'm sure I over-explained my intent and meaning to him (and again, to a black American, in yet another post in the same thread): In short, that I could never find fault with anyone for pointing out Australia's problems any more than I could fault someone for pointing out America's problems -- as long as one's views (whether right or wrong) are based on informed opinion.

Which is a far cry from branding an entire nation a bunch of "uncivilized convicts" over one shocking story of racism.

[PinkUnicorn]

8. Question

I saw mention of "pickaninny" and "cracker". I assume these are some sort of insult in the Southern US?

What is amusing though is that when Americans were called 'septics' (septic = Septic Tank = Yank and full of sh*t) in Queensland a while back they went off their dials. The difference in reactions is odd to a degree.

But in either case, I can say I have several convicts in my background (a robber, a forger, and a petty thief) so it doesn't really bother me. After all, they've been dead for over a century and if they didn't commit their respective crimes I wouldn't be here.

And of course there's the old puritan/convict argument. At least convicts are honest criminals and paid for their crimes. ;)

[Sapphocrat]

9. In the South they are, yes...

"Pickaninny" is a very racist word for a black person, mainly a poor little black kid, worthless, not always terribly intelligent. Think Prissy in "Gone with the Wind."

"Cracker" is a word used by Southern blacks for Southern whites. It seemed to fall out of use, but I'm hearing it more lately. (Some white Southerners have co-opted it -- "I'm a proud Georgia cracker!" -- to take the sting out of it, just like a lot of gay folks have co-opted the once-completely derogatory "queer.") "Cracker" doesn't have any real meaning for me (I'm not a Southerner), but it hits me as having the same sort of definition as "poor white (and uneducated) trailer trash."

I chose those words as examples for two reasons: 1) I was addressing a Southerner, and 2) neither word is the worst possible thing you can say about anyone,* but both stir some major emotions with both blacks and whites in the South.

If I'd been addressing a fellow California and wanted to rouse strong emotions with racially-charged slurs, I would have chosen completely different words. I'd give you examples, but all the ones I can think are too charged for me to be comfortable using, even as examples.

I'm with you on the convict thing. But again, it's not that having convict ancestors is a bad thing -- the bad thing is someone reducing you to a stereotype.

"Septics" - ROFL! I love it. :) (Well, I wouldn't love it if an angry mob of Queenslanders were screaming it at me, but I'm amused by it here.)


* Obviously, you know the worst thing a white person can call a black person in the U.S. I don't think there's really an equivalent for the N-word for whites among black Americans -- but then, I'm not black, so I don't know for sure. ("Honky" sounds awfully tame to my ear, and I haven't heard anybody say it in about 30 years. LOL) Pretty much all slurs on white people roll off me, 'cause it just doesn't feel like anything applies to me. But I guess it all depends on how it's said; I'd be very annoyed with a Mexican-American who called me "gringita" -- "little white girl" -- not because it has anything to do with being white, but because it reduces me to the status of a child.

[PinkUnicorn]

10. Ta

I was a bit curious about 'crackers' as I couldn't see how being called a biscuit would be insulting. But I see now - it's like the differing meaning of 'root' or 'thong' between Oz and the US. I ran into this once some time ago when in the US when I asked for a 'white and two' (milk, two sugars) at a coffee shop. The guy (black) was not happy at all, until I explained it and I learnt that the words are 'coffee with cream'.

Out of curiosity, the Australian states call each other names (Banana benders, Cockroaches, Taswegians, etc) and no one takes offense. Do the various states in the US have a similar thing or are they touchy about it?

[Sapphocrat]

11. You forgot Sandgropers. LOL

Now that you mention it, but nicknames for state residents are few and far between. Only "Hoosiers" comes to mind; "Hoosiers" are from Indiana. (Why? No one, not even Hoosiers, have any idea. But I guess it's easier than trying to figure out if you should call them Indianaians... er, Indiana-ites... Indianoids??)

I think since the divisions here are more regional than by state, our terms of "endearment" are in turn regional -- although California gets the brunt of the "land of fruits and nuts" cracks. (What do we Californians call ourselves? Incredibly lucky, that's what.)

"Redneck" applies only to Southerners, and "Yankee" really only applies to anyone who lives in any of the northern (Union) states (anti-Confederacy, anti-slave states). We know it's just easier for the rest of the world to call all Americans "Yanks," but an American would never call another American a Yank unless he really was a Yankee.

For whatever reason -- maybe because we move around so much -- our cities are more readily identifiable by nicknames than our residents are. Here are a few off the top of my head -- and it should be pretty clear which epithets are negatives bestowed by out-of-towners:

Chi-Town, Second City, The Windy City = Chicago
The Motor City, Motown = Detroit, Michigan
The Big Easy = New Orleans
The Big Apple = New York
The Big Orange, La-La Land, El Lay, Hell-A = Los Angeles
Hollyweird = Hollywood
Berzerkley = Berkeley, Calif.
Armpit of California = Fresno or Stockton (both always smell like cow flop)
Slow Death = San Diego, Calif.
Beantown = Boston (for "Boston baked beans")
Sin City, Lost Wages = Las Vegas

Oh, and one more thing: Never, ever, ever call San Francisco "Frisco"!

Coffee tip for New York City: If you order a "regular coffee" in NYC, you'll get coffee with milk (or cream). I learned this to my dismay, since I like my coffee black -- and to me a "regular coffee" just means "not decaffeinated". Now I make it a point to ask for "black."