Let's argue about John Kerr...

[Violet_Crumble]

Anyone here think that he was the villain or the hero in the dismissal of the Whitlam government? I've always been in the villain camp, but now I have to write about it, I'm thinking of trying to write it arguing that he wasn't exactly a villain or a hero, but manipulated by the Opposition to do what they wanted. I was going to try to do the hero argument, but even after I started to read his autobiography I can't bring myself to do it without feeling ickky...

Violet...

[Djinn]

1. a sad deluded old lush

who thought he'd do well out of it, yes he was manipulated but he's still a villain to me

[Matilda]

2. Yes, I see him as a villain too.

More concerned with protecting his own position than in doing what
was right for the country in the circumstances. He didn't warn
Whitlam what the outcome could be, and that was wrong; he took sides
and he shouldn't have.

It is interesting though that he was appointed by Whitlam, who also
made a number of poor choices when it came to naming his Ministers -
Cairns, Crean, Connor and others, who ultimately let him down badly.
Was Whitlam a poor judge of character, or did he choose people
perhaps for their perceived loyalty rather than their abilities?

[Djinn]

3. Much as I'm a Gough fan

I can't help thinking a lot of his bad decisions had something to do with his ego which is almost as large as he is, maybe if people toadied enough he wouldn't see their faults? :shrug:

[Matilda]

4. He does make you think of the ancient Greek myths

and how the gods moved against anyone who became too arrogant.

I revere Gough for his socialist principles and for so much of the
resultant legislation, and for his intellect and his wit. But it
seems that while there was no shortage of idealism in his government,
there was nobody who was any good at bean-counting.

I wish I knew more about the workings of his administration - I've
only ever read pieces that were either very pro- or very anti-Gough.
I'd like to read a good unbiased account of those days.

That said, he's the only one I'd stand in the street for when he
goes.

[Esra Star]

5. The problem for Gough was that absolutely nothing

had progressed for such a long time.
When he came to control the treasury there was just so much to do.
In the end the populace seemed to agree that it was all happening too fast. All the plebs panicked, and we ended up with Fraser for nearly
eight years.
Gough laid a good platform for the Hawke/Keating era.
That's where we made good progress.

[Djinn]

6. If that was progress we're all in trouble

busting unions, mandatory detention of refugees, cutting social budgets and privatising everything under the sun. The Hawke Keating governemnt was less progressive than Fraser's if economic rationalism is the best the ALP can do it's no wonder they're still in opposition

[Matilda]

7. Exactly.

Hawke and Keating pushed Labor so far to the right, the Libs had
nowhere to go but even further right. You might say they made
John Howard possible.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. In the end I couldn't argue that he was anything but a villain...

..but just the strain of trying to do anything else but that burnt me out and I ended up not finishing the essay. Oh well...

Violet...

[SweetLeftFoot]

8. The Falcon and the Snowman

Ever read it? Goes into some detail about the level of CIA agitation in Australia during the whole Dismissal thing. Great book. Good man Chris Boyce - poor choice of mates though.

[velvet]

9. thanks

I'll take a look.

[SweetLeftFoot]

10. The movie

with Sean Penn is very very good too although obviously doesn't go as in depth as the book. Well worth seeing too though.

[Catamount]

12. Villain, definitely!

The way I remember it Whitlam brought in a great health system- for everyone.I think it was called medi-care, but not sure.
People could afford operations,and some paid nothing.
I hear it's no longer like that, so someone changed it back to a paying system- but I don't know who.
Personally I couldn't stand Fraser, he affected me the same way as the shrub!

[Matilda]

13. It was called Medibank - later became Medicare under Fraser,

and is being whittled away bit by bit. I'm sure if Howard stays in
power long enough, it will disappear.

Whitlam also brought in free dental care for schoolchildren - only
the basics of course, not specialist services, but it was a great
blessing to us when our children were young. Dumped by Howard,
of course.

[ballaratocker]

14. He had delusions about his office.

He exercised the powers of a usually ceremonial office. He was more concerned about protecting his own position than actually being transparent with Whitlam (he was set a precedent by the Game/Lang dismissal when Game forwarned Lang that if he did not change course he would be dismissed. Plus, if Whitlam were to sack Kerr, it would have caused massive outcry against Gough).
Those two principles give me a poor historic view of John Kerr. (I wasn't born in those times, I am a child of the '80's).