Don't believe that Bev sold "Clinton Cigars" during impeachment scandal?

[Maddy McCall]

Take a look-see at this:

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

*******************
The Presidential Cigar

Sonny D has great taste in music. Not so for cigars.
Here's a collector's item for you:
The following information is submitted for your pleasure...

THE "EL PRESIDENTE" CIGAR

A large-size cigar ...

- Features an official gold seal and a Billy-C image.
- Measures an impressive (in the cigar industry, anyway) six-and-one-fifth inches long, with a respectable 50 ring circumference.
- Hand made - Longfeller oops, longfiller
- Tastes quite excellent! (for an item conceived in such poor taste).

"A good cigar, with a core of herbal and earthy notes."

"Quite well made, with some spice and a bit of a woody finish"

Each highly pleasureable cigar is only US $5.00.
Not available outside the USA. Add $3 S&H for each order.
Order by VISA or MC -- phone [phone]Or fax order, shipping address, and credit card info to secure private fax line: 425-228-3965
Snail-mail orders: Talion Marketing - 330 SW 43rd St PMB K-547 Renton WA 98055




And now, for our more respectable products and publications...

-- -- -- --


Talion Marketing -- [e-mail]
Phone: [phone] -- Fax: [phone]
Mailing Address: 330 SW 43rd St PMB K-547 Renton WA 98055 USA

The name "Talion" is protected by registered service mark.
Use of all photographs and original content at this site is restricted.
Copyright © 1998 by Talion Publishing.
***************************

Yep, this is the person who should be representing us in the BBV fight. :eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

1. I don't see Bev's name anywhere on that site.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Do you know what "talion" is?

[Skip Intro]

6. I don't - explain it please

[Metatron]

5. Bev Harris

Bev Harris
Talion Publishing/Marketing
http://www.bookflash.com/releases/100180.html

(edit-removed phone and address)

[Skip Intro]

14. Here's what's there on Bev -

Bev Harris
From Disinfopedia

Bev Harris is an investigative journalist focusing on electronic voting technologies which she considers to be vulnerable error and misuse without being subject to strict election audit procedures.
Table of contents
1 Activism on voting issues
2 Book
3 Contact details
4 Disinfopedia resources
5 External links

Activism on voting issues

Her expose of the McCarthy Group, Diebold Election Systems, ES&S, I-Mark, Chuck Hagel, Michael McCarthy (Hagel's campaign finance manager), Bob Urosevich is published in her book Black Box Voting. It establishes clear Republican Party links to all major providers of these technologies. The expose raises questions about the use of this technology in the U.S. midterm election, 2002.

Harris runs the e-voting activism site BlackBoxVoting.org. Following a falling out with her publisher, David Allen, this is separate from his activism site, BlackBoxVoting.com <1> (http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=214).

Harris ran a PR company, Talion. However the website is no longer active. She has apparently decided to focus strictly on the electoral fraud issues that are inherent in voting machines, especially the Diebold Accuvote system which she has criticized deeply for

Bev Harris and her team at blackboxvoting.org have filed the largest number of FOIAs - Freedom of Information Act requests - in history. She is asking 3,000 counties for the internal audit logs of their voting machines, which are public records, as well as for other key data. See the Diebold Election Systems electoral fraud, 2004 article for updates and the county-by-county issues in their own articles notably Cuyahoga County, OH, US and Franklin County, OH, US.

Book

* Bev Harris, Black Box Voting: Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890916900/102-1907412-3536116), Talion Publishing, March, 2004, ISBN: 1890916900.


Contact details

Bev Harris
330 SW 43rd St
PMB K-547
Renton, Washington 98055 USA
Phone [phone]
Fax: [phone]
E-mail:[e-mail]

Disinfopedia resources

* BlackBoxVoting.com - The website of Harris's former publisher
* BlackBoxVoting.org - Harris's website
* David Bear
* Diebold Election Systems
* Election Center
* Public Strategies, Inc.
* R. Doug Lewis
* E-Voting: Digital Democracy or a Cash Cow for Consultants?
* Selling electronic voting
* A Short but Tragic History of E-voting Public Relations
* e-voting
* e-voting PR
* Voting machine


External links

* blackboxvoting.ORG - Bev Harris's black box voting site (http://www.blackboxvoting.org/)
* blackboxvoting.COM - The website of Harris's former publisher, David Allen (http://www.blackboxvoting.com/)
* How to Rig an American Election (http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/voting.shtml) - two articles, by Harris and C. D. Sludge.
* "Talion.com (http://www.prweb.com/firm/prf841.htm)", PR Web, accessed October 2004.
-------------------
?????

[Metatron]

27. I was posting about her old company, Talion

Then I edited out the contact information and found an alternative source about her company. I didn't know how appropriate it was with the contact information up. I didn't need to read or post about the BBV stuff - I was replying about Talion.

[Must_B_Free]

57. I see SonnyD's name on the cigar ad

maybe he was selling them...

[Skip Intro]

3. You're attacking Bev Harris here, right?

just asking....

[Syrinx]

7. I don't see any attack

She's just inviting you to look at some facts.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Yes, but facts are scary...

especially when they call into question the messiah of the movement. :eyes:

[Skip Intro]

18. WHAT FACTS???

Please, enlighten me.

Please, really, please!

[Maddy McCall]

23. Look at the two threads I started, at the OP.

There are your facts, whether you or anyone likes them or not.

Nothing but the truth.

[Skip Intro]

39. j. Maddy, please

I don't know what you mean by the OP

You were here at DU when I got here, and I really don't mean to argue, but a lot hangs in the balance in this particular thread, so I want to make sure I get things right here...

Evidently, something is going on in other threads in other forums about this. Can you please provide me with a link?

I've enjoyed many of your posts as jchild, and I hope you don't take my questioning personally. Its nothing personal.

But I have come to be in awe of bev, then dismiss her, then be in awe of her again.

Is, because of what you have found, her work, her attitude, her discoveries, all suspect now? Is that your bottom line?

I ask because I don't know.

[ValleyGirl]

4. Are you like stalking this woman?

It's starting to get creepy.

[Maddy McCall]

9. No, dear, creepy is selling "Clinton cigars"

[ValleyGirl]

16. Um, no sweetie it isn't

silly novelty item maybe, but creepy to me is someone who's obsessed with this woman & intent on smearing/damaging her in some way. Is Bev Harris even a Dem? Is she supposed to have some kind of allegience to Clinton?

I am neither a fan nor foe of Bev Harris, but your personal vendetta is embarassing. IMO.

[Maddy McCall]

26. It's a smear when I post her words? Then she smeared herself.

Funny how her supporters will bend and contort the truth to protect her. So damned funny. :-)

[ValleyGirl]

36. You've been slamming her all night (or trying to)

and it's way obvious that it's personal to you. So far I don't see anything all that damaging (Clinton cigars? Gasp!) but since you already have personal issues with her you just won't stop.

And I'm not even a "supporter". I've donated zero money to her, I just read what she's up to here as well as the others like Madsen, etc. working for the cause. Tonight you called the people at DU that DO support her a 'cult' and smear them as well as her. I suggest you take your beef with Harris straight to her personally.

[Catherine Vincent]

56. No, selling Clinton cigars aren't damaging but

normally a conservative or a repuke or a freeper does something like this. I'm puzzled.

[Kelvin Mace]

58. Bev has smeared many people

and it is funny that when folks trot out evidence to show the real Bev, they are called stalkers.

Since you are new, I would suggest you look in the archives, say around July 2004 (General Discussion) forum and take a look at some of the lies Bev has told. Bev even demanded people PROVE she was lying, and they did, with her own words.

Sad. So, very sad.

Keith O. is just the latest to call Bev on her stories. Now he is being smeared like so many before him.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[RevolutionStartsNow]

10. "Starting to"?

It's been creepy all night.

I suggest the alert button.

[girl gone mad]

15. I think there is a difference between stalking..

and linking public information on a public person's background, don't you?

As tasteless and insensitive as it may have been, I don't think it is enough to persuade me that Bev Harris is a bad person now. We all make mistakes.

[notadmblnd]

52. It seems to me that is happening.

I was reading the thread a few minutes ago where this Maddy person pointed out that Bev had threatened to sue DU for using here trademark at one time. It appeared to me Bev explained her reasoning later on in her post why she didn't want people using BBV. I also saw in that thread was a counter-threat by Plan9 to cause Bev as much trouble as possible.

Suddenly this Maddie person shows up and starts threads calling Bev a an egotistical liar who is hurting the cause.

I don't care what happened between Bev and Plan9 Publishing and Eloriel et al. It's between them and they can fight their own battles. Why this Maddie person (who has admitted their non-involvement from the get go) has appointed themselves the protector of all who are not Bev, has me wondering if this Maddie is a hired gun for counter threats made on other threads.

Maddie, I say to you, let them fight their own battles. It appears there's more than one big ego involved here. If Bev comes across as a kook.. so be it.. it will all eventually come out in the wash. There's more important work to be done than badmouthing people who you think have hurt others. You don't know the truth to events and neither do I but what does show is your desperation to discredit a person who had done incredible work to get this issue out front.

Hope to see you in Ohio Saturday.

Nota

[Winamericaback]

8. And your point would be?..........

[Syrinx]

13. I don't speak for Maddy...

But people were accusing her of making this stuff up, and now she is showing proof that what she said is true.

[Maddy McCall]

64. Exactly.

And thanks for injecting some reason. :-)

[chuckrocks]

11. umm

where was this 2 years ago, when she wasn't so well known? i guess more to the point, why the fuck should i care? i laughed my ass off when slick willy hit on marge simpson. "i've done with pigs, honest to goodness real pigs." "if your ever by the white house, there's a tool shed out back, i'm in there most of the day." bites lip. she didn't make cigars notorious, starr did. why the johnny come lately guess what she did shit?
:eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

17. Maybe we need to have Bev explain why she did this.

Although it is a free country.

[steelyboo]

29. Maddy you might wanna snoop that site a bit

That paticular Bev Harris has a picture and bio linked to it, and its not the same Bev.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000413000915/www.talion.com/index.html

[Maddy McCall]

31. Yes it is the same bev. Why don't you take a look in the DU

archives where bev discusses her isp taking Talion down?

[Catherine Vincent]

38. Here is her pic. Is this our Bev Harris?

http://web.archive.org/web/20000413000915/www.talion.com/index.html

edit: You have to click to the left where it says click here-Staff

[Maddy McCall]

43. Yep. That's her.

[notadmblnd]

60. Thats not the Bev Harris I've seen working on this.

If it is, she has undergone some very marked changes recently.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000901054828/

Maybe they're the same?
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=

or maybe this one?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=

[Maddy McCall]

62. Yes, it's her. She has aged, but it's her.

[Kelvin Mace]

59. Yes, it is Bev

just a younger photo. Red Dog was her PR firm, which then became Talion. I know because that's how I first met her.

Gee, a LOT of folks popping on with single digit post counts.

How very odd.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

61. And if anyone knows, it should be you.

You know her history better than anyone at DU.

[johnaries]

70. I would still like to know why any of this is relevant

to the work she's doing today. You seem intent on discrediting her, typical of a Karl Rove tactic. Can we focus on today's FACTS, for a change?

[Catherine Vincent]

66. Well what do you know. We have 2 David Allens on DU.

:-)

[Kelvin Mace]

71. No, I am not Skinner

I am the OTHER David Allen, Bev's publisher, former conributing writer and former tech consultant.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[brainshrub]

19. Assuming your right, then this is great news!

Because now the RW will not be able to say that Bev is carrying water for the Democratic party.

I don't think the "El Presidente" cigars were satires of the president. Where are the pics of Clinton? Where are the snarky comments about Monica?
While the site design is rather primative (like most conservative websites) I think you're making a mountian out of a molehill.

Even if she did sell Clinton cigars... so what? Great idea! I hope she made money.

ON EDIT: I would support Bev Harris even if she were a right-wing conservative investigating Kerry over BBV. Making sure every vote is counted transends partisanship.

[tommcintyre]

20. C'mon, level with us. What is your REAL agenda Maddy?

"Yep, this is the person who should be representing us in the BBV fight."

I don't have a "dog in this fight"; but I'm really starting to wonder about your agenda.

Bev is being criticized today, for what may or may not have been a mistake, and both the number of your posts tonight about Bev, AND especially this last post has destroyed any shred of credibility you had.

WHAT IS YOUR REAL MOTIVE?

[Maddy McCall]

22. What is my motive in doing what? In posting Bev's words?

Truth is not acceptable to some people. Call me a liar because I questioned her, and I will show proof that I am NOT a liar.

Be a sceptic. I am.

[tommcintyre]

35. It's your timing that I totally call into question.

This is all "old news", and you are choosing to attack this person when there is some question that they may have made a (current) mistake. You have been waiting for this moment, haven't you?

I AM POSITIVE THAT YOU AND YOUR ACCOMPLICES ARE FRAUDS!

[Maddy McCall]

44. LOL! Yep, 12,000 posts at DU and I'm a fraud.

Get over it.

[tommcintyre]

51. WHY DID YOU DO THIS RIGHT NOW?????

You could have 120k, wouldn't matter, you're not leveling with us!

YOU ARE AVOIDING THIS QUESTION!

[Maddy McCall]

54. I do this right now because it's time someone called her into question.

The smell of shit that surrounds her became especially pungent after the Olbermann revelation.

But, pray tell, when would be a better time for me to do this, a time that would jamb with your schedule???

[tommcintyre]

67. So you have been waiting for this "opportunity", haven't you? DISHONEST!

You have nothing but old news, and you have been waiting for a moment of weakness haven't you?

If you were sincere, you would have been on this consistently since the middle of November. You have not. You cannot be trusted.

You will never reveal your real agenda, will you?

[Maddy McCall]

74. YOu are fucking paranoid.

[tommcintyre]

80. I THINK EVERYONE HAS YOU "FIGURED OUT" NOW

You never would answer the question would you, could you?

WHY RIGHT NOW?

You are exposed!

[Timebound]

25. Yes, Maddy. Do tell us why you're stirring up so much trouble.

You wouldn't want to be causing us to fight each other, now would you?

Cause that's what your doing. And its very hurtful to the cause.

[Syrinx]

33. what do you think her motive is?

I've been around here long enough to know that Maddy/jchild is on the good side. So what are you accusing her of?

[tommcintyre]

41. It's just too coincidental that she waited to attack til now - today.

Attack with old news at a moment of potential weakness = A FRAUD

No good reason has been given for doing this today, and no doubt, won't be forthcoming.

[Melodybe]

21. Hey J I didn't notice that was you

Yeah I remember the Bev Fiasco. Although I actually do understand her reasoning, we wouldn't want someone allowed to post under Michael Moore's name if it was not him and I feel the same way about Bev. So I have no problem with her getting pissy about that.

As far as her video proof, if Bev has the goods she better put up or shut up, end of story.

If she has something that helps us then give it to Kerry's people or put it online for all to see.

If she is full of it then she weakens the argument for any real voting fraud and in turns weakens us.

This is not about a some documentary this is not about fame this is about saving democracy, if she has something to help then go to the right people and help.

I'm pissed cause she came here and said she had all this great evidence of fraud, which she may or may not have but then we don't get to see anything. Video proof is pretty hard to argue with, if she has it, Kerry's people better have it.

J I am sorry to see so many dogging on you, chin up.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Hey, Melody! I'm a fighter. They aren't bothering me.

I just want them to see what it is they are supporting.

[girl gone mad]

46. Bev does have a history of..

being at the center of turmoil, though I've never paid attention to the details of the various conflicts.

[Zomby Woof]

24. rock on Maddy!

One of the few here who GETS IT about the literary publicist (who admitted to not even voting regularly) who is best at promoting herself: Bev Harris.

[Maddy McCall]

30. Thanks, ZW! Yep, she claimed she didn't even vote until, when,

2000? And she's the bellwether for this movement? LOL!

[bluetrain]

32. Randi Rhodes is an egomaniac, too. Does that mean she hasn't "done

good" by educating a lot of people? You could also argue that Michael Moore is an egomaniac or Thomas Jefferson for that matter but it does nothing to alter the effects of their efforts.

Whether Bev turns something up or not most of us here have had a good enough look at the math (because of her bringing this to all of our attention) to know that it just doesn't add up as legit.

We are all impatient right now. We all want this shit resolved.

Maddy's posts have gotten creepy.

[Zomby Woof]

47. it isn't ego at stake here

Read #6:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x101212

Randi and those others aren't frauds, so your analogy is dead on its feet.

A more apt analogy is Barnumesque in flavor.

[bluetrain]

65. My point is they all alerted the public to take action on

issues we might otherwise not be informed of or have taken longer to find out about on our own. With Bev, it's the math and that is clearly askew regardless of what evidence of whodunnit she does or doesn't come up with.

That's my point. You want to claim Bev is a fraud, go ahead. There's no need to start fifty fucking threads on it.

[Skip Intro]

49. Why can't some of you who "get it" explain it to the "rest of us" -?

cuz I don't get it

seems like bev has done a lot.

what am I missing

how have I been foooled?

put it down for me in black and white, will you?

[Zomby Woof]

55. see post #6 - it sums it up nicely

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x101212

She is a spokesperson for voting accountability the same way Jerry Falwell is a spokesperson for Christianity.

Both are self-aggrandizing money-grubbing opportunists hiding behind noble causes for private gain.

That should explain it quite well, thank you. ;-)

[Skip Intro]

63. It sums up your (harsh) opinion nicely, but there is little fact there

the entire thread is is made up of harsh opinion, which is fine.

I'll tell you ZW, I am not committed to any DUer, or any Dem, or any person or entity - I want the truth. I want the facts.

The vote was stolen from us.

It seems to me that Bev has gone a long way, further than anyone else I'm aware of, in shining a light on the fraud.

If what you suggest is true, then she is a fraud. Proabaly a mole here at DU.

But then, ZW, why could we not assign the same suspicions to you?

or me?

[smartvoter]

34. Call me a Freeper, troll, whatever, but it looks to me like Maddy...

is just proving that she wasn't lying, which she was accused of.

And why is she not entitled to her own opinions, anyway? This whole thing just isn't right. Our side of the political spectrum is supposed to be the tolerant one.

[bluetrain]

37. Regardless of her intentions, she's just making herself look like a psycho

[brainshrub]

42. Or perhaps people are trying to make her look like a psycho.

Let's address the issues she brings up: Was the election stolen? Were all the votes counted? Does she have proof?

Once all those questions have been answered, then we can call out the shrinks for an analysis. Bev isn't on trial here: It's the BBV system.

[bluetrain]

45. Who the hell are you talking about? Bev or Maddy?!!!

What's going on here tonight?!

[brainshrub]

48. I was talking about Bev

I don't know if Maddy is a woman.

ON EDIT: Sorry, I thought you meant that Bev was making herself look psycho.

This topic is making me psycho. I'm going to bed.

[bluetrain]

72. Ok. Sweet dreams.

[Melodybe]

53. Her posts aren't creepy and that doesn't mean that Bev has no proof

However you are insulting a longtime member of DU that is not lying about anything, if you don't like what she has to say then I'm sorry. Being able to type the a few words in the google tool bar is hardly grounds for being called a stalker.

Why does what she said have to discredit Bev? If Bev has proof it will speak for itself and she will be a hero.

Bev saying she has proof and not forking it over is Bev discrediting herself. If Bev is hoarding proof for her documentary and not worried about the outcome of this election or is lying, then she makes us all look bad.

[bluetrain]

69. No, it is creepy. The apparent obsession is creepy. One thread with all

her points summarized and shorter on character slandering would have done and likely done better.

[YellowDoginthehouse]

79. Agree, n/t

n/t

[HR_Pufnstuf]

40. heh heh,

she said "longfeller"

(in butthead voice)

[johnaries]

50. I don't care about cigars, I care about Fair Elections!

:wtf: What, are you practicing to be the next Karl Rove? :puke: You seem intent on trying to discredit Bev and BBV, but you still haven't given us one good reason why we shouldn't support her in THIS fight!
Sorry, I think for myself, and it looks to me like she's fighting hard for FAIR ELECTIONS! You can take your smear campaign and stick it... well, where SMEARS belong! :hurts:

[Timebound]

68. Amen! n/t

[tommcintyre]

73. EXACTLY! She has a hidden agenda, and is trying to manipulate us.

Her timing (waiting for a potential moment of weakness) reveals what she is really about.

[Melodybe]

77. who Bev or Maddy?

I can't speak fpr Bev but will gladly speak for Maddy since I've talked to her since I came to DU, way back in October of last year. How the time flys.

[tommcintyre]

81. You know who. Her timing reveals that she has a hidden agenda.

Maddy is in a snit about something that happened 2 weeks ago, and decides to make a big deal about it today (a day when some are questioning if Bev made a mistake in Florida)? I know manipulation when I see it. It doesn't matter how long someone has "been around".

[Skip Intro]

75. Thank you -

:D

[Maddy McCall]

76. Then you'd better find a credible standard bearer...

because the one you have now is NOT.

[badc0der]

78. thanks, but...

You have inspired me to do some digging that I should have done when I first heard of Bev Harris/BBV. And I now have less faith that she will do the right thing for the anti-BBV movement.

That being said what you are doing has gone beyond that constructive eye opening. I know that lots of people at DU got hurt by her (and I wasn't one of them) but for the moment she is about all we have. Right now all you are doing is bringing up old dirt that serves no purpose except to discredit one of the few people in the movement that is getting some MSM attention. Doing the Republicans' work for them can only hurt us.