Why are so many DUers willing to take Olberman's word over Bev's?

[Sperk]

I'm not taking sides on this. I don't know the truth and I hope we all find out. But I am shocked and appauled at how many DUers are assuming that Bev is lying (about appearance that didn't happen on Countdown to requests for her tapes.)

I am a big fan of Olbermann, I was before this whole thing, but Bev has been working her ass off for two years on this issue and I think she at least deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.

And as far as her personality goes.......does anyone really think that someone with a passive personality would have gotten has far as she has?

I really am going to piss some people off here, but if she was a BEN instead of a BEV, would so many of you assume she has anger problems?

Flame away....
:evilgrin:

[noclonyofthechimp]

1. I wish people would just look at the obvious possibility of

miscommunication here. His people talked to her people, they never actually spoke. He was on vacation, Thanksgiving was here.....it is so easy for accurate data to break-down when a lot of voices are relaying the data. Let's have some faith in these two professionals.

[Cocoa]

2. because Bev is an obvious fraud?

:shrug:

[Sperk]

45. obvious to whom? Have you always felt this way about her, from day one

or is this a new assumption?

[Cocoa]

92. more like day five, actually

I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't immediately realize she was pulling my leg. As I recall, what opened my eyes was her oddly virulent reaction to a simple, innocent question I asked her.

[el_gato]

54. do you always just say shit without backing it up?

I guess the corporate media hacks have some credibility in your mind?

[Ducks In A Row]

93. bullshit.

[liberalnurse]

3. There are planted disruptor's

on this board. Any real DU'er will back-up Bev....without even blinking.

I'm in that category.

[smartvoter]

5. Classic: "If you don't agree with me 100%, you're a fake."

I am absolutely stunned at how intolerant people are out here.

[liberalnurse]

10. I'm not surprised at your behavior.

I choose not to attack a highly respected DU'er. You have not been here long enough to gain the respect Bev has.....and your behavior reflects that you never, ever will......

[smartvoter]

18. Whatever floats your boat.

[liberalnurse]

38. Yea,...

And you are drifting down river without a paddle. Sinking fast...

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

67. You make me laugh.....

Such a lightweight.......:bounce:

[smartvoter]

71. Wish I could say the same. All kididng aside,

I feel sorry for people like you. I really do.

[liberalnurse]

75. Feel.....

You suggest you have feelings....and attack a respectable DU'er Activist.....Bev Harris......


I think not.......That is not a recognized characteristic you display on this board.

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Respected?

That's debatable.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[liberalnurse]

66. Why do you jump in defense when

a generic reference to disruptor's is placed? Is there a kinship? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Kahuna]

6. Still singing that tune. Anybody who doesn't agree with you..

is a freeper? :eyes:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jersey Devil]

8. Why won't Bev back up Bev?

Couldn't she straighten this out here with an appearance and a post? Obviously she found the time to update her website despite not having done so for a while due to her high level of activities.

Constructive criticism and logical discussion is not "disrupting". She should appear on KO's show and explain. Lining up with her in a tomato throwing contest with Olbermann, which she has apparently now decided to engage in, is good for the vote fraud issue? Can you explain how?

[texpatriot2004]

17. Thank you for this line about what is not a disruption

Also, good point, how does it help the vote fraud issue for her to lash out at KO?

[tbuddha]

19. Coz he won't let her on the show

and neither will MSNBC

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[Sperk]

33. I thought she made her point on the BBV site....why would it be

better if she said it here?

[Jersey Devil]

56. Because her "point" is not a point

Fighting with KO will do nothing to advance the BBV or vote fraud cause. This is not about Bev or KO. While I respect them both the issue is confidence in our election system. Bev should rise about any personal peevishness and go on his show. Hopefully if she came here we could convince her of that.

[el_gato]

72. So now you have to do whatever KO wants? Why?

He's a media stooge. What gives him any credibility? He does what his bosses tell him to do.

It's like you want people to play into the hands of the corporte media which has shown it's true colors time and again.

[Jersey Devil]

79. Bev appearing on KO's show would be bad?

Does Bev want to get her message accross on TV or not? Is there some other show that is inviting her to come on?

What the hell are you talking about? KO wants her on his show so sure, yes, definitely let him have his way. Why not?

[Ducks In A Row]

95. And why do you think you get to tell Bev what to do?

[AmyCrat]

15. there IS a middle ground ya know

I can back her up and her cause, but believe she makes mistakes and doesn't always handle things right.

This is one of those time.

[papau]

61. I agree

:-)

[Jersey Devil]

73. Well, I think that is what most of us are trying to say

We want her to recognize the error and correct it. Unfortunately some have decided that this comes under the umbrella of "personal attacks".

We all make mistakes and especially with all the stress she has been under it is no surprise that Bev made one also. But most of us don't have our mistakes trumpeted on television.

I just hope she calms down, reconsiders and calls Olbmermann to tell him she wants to be on his show and then gives him at least some evidence or an explanation of why she cannot do that at this time.

[texpatriot2004]

83. Yeah, it's true, nobody is perfect.

[pipes]

21. It is not that Bev is not telling the truth...

It's that sometimes you need to bite your damn toungue and work for the greater good...

No need to piss on the guy who in all reality brought most of this nonsense to the forefront of at least on MSM sation and or show.

So, do i believe either of them in this pissing match? Who TF cares?

Point is, why would we get into a pissing match with him? Aren't BBV and Bev adults who have put countless hours and energy into this fraud uncovering, so tell me as a responsible adult, have you ever had to hold back because it was for the greater good? You think the repukes piss on eachother about stupid shit? Do they tow the line even though they might not agree in order to make some shit happen. Why do you think they all can't sleep at night?

BBV and Bev have done awesome work...but that does not mean that 85% of the country doesen't still see them wearing tin foil hats. It isn't about who's right or wrong, it is about what is right or wrong and how in the hell are we going to get there!

It is the message not the messenger! Bush was the messenger not the message, seemed to work for him right? If Bev is shitting on the only MSM messenger we have, well then I ask you, WHERE IN THE HELL DOES THAT LEAVE US? Somehwere in between "reality" and Tin foil Land" Not in the MSM and not taken seriously.

[Sperk]

37. Keith's post, fair, unfair, accurate or not gave the impression to me

that Bev was being less than honest. Now, did he try to get her on the phone to check things out? I don't think so. He went on his public web site and aired his concerns. I'm not saying that that was wrong but I think is invites a public rebuke. If Bev should have contacted Olbermann personally to air her grievances, then it's only fair to say that Keith should have contacted Bev too.

[Junkdrawer]

68. Yep. The bigger the story, the more magically appear...

It's why I've given up on DU recently. Many of the "old-timers" have too.

:(

[texpatriot2004]

89. Why? Why have you given up? I am a relative newbie and

I have noticed many a negative post in the last two weeks. I began reading around Nov. 3rd. I love DU. I did happen to notice about two weeks after the election there seemed to be many threads with a negative tone. Is that why?

[Jersey Devil]

4. Try reading KO again - I did and my opinion is that he was inviting her

to come on his show. In fact, he was double daring her. It isn't a case of who you believe. It is a case of laying out the evidence to back up her claims. Keith was saying, "So why should I continue to mention you when you give me nothing to back up what you say? Give me something!"

So, instead of giving him something she spit at him.

[liberalnurse]

7. Your abusive language

is not going to be tolerated.

[Jersey Devil]

9. I beg your pardon?

What in the world are you talking about? :shrug:

[liberalnurse]

32. You disrespect a well intended,

DU'er....and Activist who's roots are from this very board; her mission was and is our issue. Your characterization is an insult to all of us "old timers" of DU..... You should know better.


"So, instead of giving him something she spit at him."


How dare you defend a media whore over Bev....and on this board.

[Kelvin Mace]

43. Get a grip

If you look hard enough on this board, you will find that many people, with older and better liberal pedigrees have problems withg Bev.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[tbuddha]

52. Iiberal pedigrees?

That statement is so wrong in so many ways I don't know where to start.

you are obviously Jersey Devil under another name. You have the audacity to even use the same Groucho Marx pic. What do you have against Bev?

She states she tried to get on the show, and they wouldn't let her.

This is a he-said-she-said case and you are taking the MSM side?
Over a lady who has busted her ass on this for two years?

I don't get you buddy, and you're no legal expert

[Jersey Devil]

65. Actually, there are two Jersey Devils here

One is Jersey Devil and the other is JerseyDevil but I am not telling which one I am.

I think they should at least administer a Rorschach Test before admitting new members here. So, tell me, what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you see:

[Kahuna]

77. I'll play...

Elsie the Cow. What does that say about me? :7

[Kelvin Mace]

91. Four Opus noses back to back?

[Kelvin Mace]

90. That is hysterical

I am not Jersey Devil and if you won't believe me, report me. Posting under two different screen names is a violation of the rules. If you are right, I will be tombstoned. Don't hold your breath, though.

Yes, I am taking KO's side because I have had two years experience dealing with Bev as her publisher, tech consultant and contributing writer. I was just as involved with the Diebold files, memos, law suit threats and took as many risks as Bev did.

Bev did not invent this topic, btw, if dates back to 1986. And while I only started working with Bev in 2002, I wrote on this topic myself in 1994.

Bev repeatedly has alienated valuable allies in the past and has done so yet again with with KO.

Your accusation shows you really have no idea what is going on and you don't seem willing to expend a little effort to find out who everyone is.

I do not require a law degree to understand the law.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
www.blackboxvoting.com

[Jersey Devil]

44. Guess what? I am an older "oldtimer" at DU than you are

Look at my profile - been a member since 2001. But that is not the point, nor is there any logic to your attempt to pull "post rank" on me, though erroneous. You think because you have more posts your words are more logical than mine?

Yes, she did metaphorically "spit" (I could also have substituted a scatological term and it would have been just as accurate and maybe a little bit more colorful) at Olbermann and it was not a very good thing to do to start a public fight with someone who has his own television show, don't you think?

I am not defending or insulting anyone. When I see someone do something obviously stupid who is supposed to be a leader in a cause I am very deeply interested in I believe I have an obligation to speak up, to tell her she is wrong and to convince her to correct it.

I am sure she is reading this site. I just hope she thinks about what she is reading in terms of the cause and not of her own ego.

[liberalnurse]

57. Bev has nothing to gain beyond

helping America be a true democracy. She has devoted her time to all of us. I acknowledged your tenure at DU...Your attack on Bev is a great disappointment.....

I was here before 2002; under another name......

[Jersey Devil]

69. I did not "attack" Bev, just trying to point her in the right direction

1 - Attacking Olbermann
2 - Appearing on Olbermann's show

Which do you believe would be more effective for the BBV and vote fraud cause and why?

[el_gato]

78. Why do you think cooperating with corrupt corporate media is the right way

[Jersey Devil]

82. You know of any other media to get her issue on TV?

You think it is more effective to have a website like hers as a stage than to appear on a nationwide TV show?

[texpatriot2004]

62. Jersey Devil you were NOT abusive. You were merely

discussing logically the matter at hand. I agree with you.

[americanstranger]

64. I'm an 'old-timer,' too.

And I'm still waiting for results from BBV.

I do know she's trashed anyone who gets in her way - even people who helped her get to where she is today.

And Olbermann is the one 'media whore' who's willing to help. Why would Bev issue a challenge to his credibility rather than take him up on his offer to air the 'evidence?'

Counter-intuitive move, if you ask me.

-as

[tbuddha]

41. I second that

To characterize Bev as "spitting on him"

is totally wrong. Bev has been in this fight all along with us, she's one of us.

How dare you take the word of a media whore at MSNBC no less over Bev's word.

[Jersey Devil]

50. *plonk*

plonk: excl.,vt.
The sound a newbie makes as he falls to the bottom of a kill file. While it originated in the newsgroup talk.bizarre, this term (usually written “*plonk*”) is now (1994) widespread on Usenet as a form of public ridicule.

Congratulations! You are the first to be put on "ignore" by me.

[On the Road]

12. What?

That was a reasonable characterization. This board has gotten extremely strident.

[Kahuna]

20. Don't judge the whole DU community by one

poster.

[smartvoter]

31. Many have been great. A few have not.

I came here when another blog (election board, actually) shut down. The board was mixed and there, like here, were a few intolerant types. I guess it comes with the territory.

[On the Road]

35. I'm Not Judging Everyone -- Really

It doesn't take that large a percentage of members to change the tone.

I've been here for almost four years and have seen a lot of hostility. This has the potential of rising to the Dem/Green, I/P, or Dean/Kerry/Clark level.

[havocmom]

27. (pssst: ribofunk, help me out here...)

has there been a kool-aide stand opened up on DU? I haven't been here much the past few days but, man o man, 'strident' is a good call! What the hell is going on around here? Why all the 'with us or again us' shouting and lines drawn in sand?

Thanks for your post. It was a good reality check for me. Thought the DU had turned into the Twilight Zone while I was out. :hi:

[havocmom]

?? Don't know whether to laugh or cry

which word, question abusive?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[texpatriot2004]

24. Right, I got that too, KO basically sent her an engraved invitation

to come on the show. So, instead of immediately calling KO and setting it up, mind you she could have hashed out any hard feelings with him in private, she "grandstands." Giving credence to the charge he made on his blog.

[Sperk]

40. shouldn't he have given her an invitation over the phone...

again I say....he posted publicly and Bev did the same in turn. IF Bev had not posted....many would have said....Oh, Bev's silence is deafening!

[texpatriot2004]

51. Maybe she was "too busy" to take his call. n/t

[el_gato]

53. He openly admits that he bumped her

[smartvoter]

60. Bumping comes with the territory in news. Happens all the time.

[el_gato]

76. I wouldn't go anywhere near the mediawhores for anything

the corporate media is a sham and everybody knows it.

[tbuddha]

25. He even admits on his post he wanted to "reschedule"

Why not have her on Nov 8? What's with the lame excuse of, "We wanted a more mainstream guest". That's bull. She has been on other shows and he's talked about her. If you're gonna talk about BBV you have Bev on. It's not like they only let people on the show that have popularity.

I know a lie when I see it. Sorry Keith. Not buying you, Or your network.

[smartvoter]

63. People get bumped around all the time on these shows.

[Ducks In A Row]

96. Oh sure, so he cancels her twice because she refused to be.

censored, and HE double-dares HER?

he should grovel and beg her to forgive his bullshit

[meganmonkey]

11. Because they are so happy to have some mainstream support

I am not taking sides on this - kinda just waiting for it to blow over. But I think that we all feel a little validated now that Olbermann is covering this. And maybe some folks don't understand how long Bev has been at this and how much she has done for the cause already.

I think that people are scared that if Keith decided we're all crackpots we will lose any chance of getting off the fringe and into the mainstream with this issue.

Just remember how Michael Moore burst into the spotlight after his Oscar speech for Columbine. He was labelled as being obnoxious and inappropriate. And how many people wathced F 9/11? Lots.

'Bad' press is better than no press.

[AmyCrat]

23. Michael Moore's

Oscar fiasco did NOTHING for his credibility, and it wasn't "good press" because it was bad press. He had already made good press by that point with his efforts, not with a radical speech in an inappropriate arena. Even HE jokes about how it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do.

And he took a beating for it. It hurt his efforts, not helped them.

[meganmonkey]

42. Apparently that was a bad example

but my bigger point still stands. We are craving MSM attention and we're finally getting and we don't want to blow it. That's what the controversy here seems to be about. And that was the OPs question.

I didn't watch much tv back when the MM oscar thing happened - I guess I saw it a different way than most people. Now I don't even have a TV. So my understanding of Olbermann and all the other news coverage is based on what I read here.

[texpatriot2004]

85. I agree with the part that we are happy to have the media

support/coverage. I think this is why we can support Keith because he has obviously been helpful to us in the past month. Bev is helping too but we don't know how really. An occasional update here or there with limited info each time, and the times are few and far apart vs. a daily dose of what's up from KO. Bev is failing on the public front.

[tbuddha]

13. I've been following Bev for 2 years now

And yes, people on here get me irate when they question the integrity of this profoundly great woman. To hear someone call her a "fraud" makes me ill.

Meanwhile, a bunch of trolls on here want to act like Keith Olberman is the greatest thin since sliced bread. I watch MSNBC A LOT. And let me tell you, they are FRAUDS. Did anyone watch "HardBall" last night? They have one NY TImes guy and one NY Post whore to give the impression that it is a point/counterpoint debate. Then they both dismiss the recount. There are plenty of credible, mainstream journalists who would have been more supportive of a recount than Frank Rich of the NY Times.

The obvious implication is that "HardBall" and by extension MSNBC (The same guys who run "Countdown") are trying to kill the issue and belittle the whole effort. Is that who you are going to put your trust with?

[johnnie]

14. I haven't jumped on this shit

I will take the info as I personally see it and not let the opinions here at DU influence my thinking. At this point there are obviously people sent here, or just here to cause some shit.
I urge the people here who feel they are truly on our side to blow past the obvious disrupters and they will eventually get a life. As they say..DO NOT FEED THE ANIMALS. There is a reason for that.

[tbuddha]

29. I agree

I just wish the mods would see who the disrupters are and do something about it.

[OKthatsIT]

26. Everybody, BE COOL

Reps have been infiltrating Dem blogs since blogs were discovered.

I would keep your eye on the pie and ignore them. I am here to find information, not respond to trouble makers.

[LoZoccolo]

28. Bev seems less tactful than she could be.

Whether or not Olbermann is right or wrong, this could easily be resolved by her going to Olbermann with the tapes. Instead, she's getting into a war with this guy in open public over the web over each others' reputations.

When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers. I think that's an Indian proverb.

[floridadem30]

30. I believe we should be happy for the work Bev does even if some people

believe it is hurting us. The more the public knows about what is going on the better. Regardless of whether or not it is good or bad it at least gives people the opportunity to do their own research and if Bev wasn't out there doing what she is doing, people wouldn't even have the option to make their own decision about this election. I will give her the benefit of the doubt and keep doing my own research.

[AmyCrat]

34. You ever watch UFO specials?

Which ones are you more likely to at least listen to? The ones where the film maker is acting over the top and fanatical, or the one the presents their story with tact and facts?

"The more the public knows the better" isn't the motto we should be striving for, if what the public is being told is that the "leader" of the movement is wack.

[el_gato]

whatever

[floridadem30]

55. If that was the case I wouldn't be here. I make my own decisions

free of influence. I have done my own research and I don't just believe everything on this site is true. If you believe that Bev is the only leader of our movement then why are we all here? By the way I never watch UFO specials.

[AmyCrat]

58. I asked you who you would be more likely to listen to.

Even in doing your own research, you are listening to SOMEONE (unless you are out there counting the votes for yourself, which you can't possibly be doing across the whole country). Who's more likely to present the case? Someone with tact and facts, or someone who acts like a fanatic?

No one is free of influence. We are ALL influenced by everything and everyone. That also means we can be objective. We can call a spade a spade, based on our own experiences and opinions (which btw, have been influenced by many things our whole lives, starting with your parents).

[el_gato]

70. name calling seems like all you have

so anyone now who works on an issue is a "fanatic"

so much for take on things.

[floridadem30]

74. I believe I answered who I listen to.

[AmyCrat]

86. actually, you didn't. But that's okay.

You and I can agree to disagree.

[floridadem30]

87. and so we shall agree to disagree

[Kelvin Mace]

36. Please! now the

defense of her actions is sexism? Doesn't hold up, since many of Bev's critics are women as well.

The issue is that this is the latest in a pattern of behaviour for Bev going back a year. She turns on her allies when they disagree with her or threaten her limelight.

How many times does she have to do it before folks acept the truth?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[el_gato]

46. It just seems some people are so quick to jump all over Bev

I haven't said much about this issue because I am content to let her to what she does and see what happens. However, given the track record of the MSM I wouldn't be surprised at all if the main goals of Olberman were to try and discredit any questioning of the voting machines and as well trying to discredit Bev. That is what they have done thousands of times before.

So why are some people here so eager to believe some talking head on TV when they know they have been lied to by those very talking heads for years now? Maybe she's a little too close for comfort.

[Sperk]

47. good point.

n/t

[rehema]

48. What Damn Difference Does it make who's telling the truth -Geesh

Ya'll need to get a grip

Two people covering election fraud and now its 'who's telling the truth'

Rove could not do a better job of divide and conquer

[EndElectoral]

59. I'll trust a grass roots worker to a corp reporter anyday. Go Bev!

[Village Idiot]

81. Well said!

Who KNOWS what Olberman's motives were behind the blog. Could be ignorance - but it could just as easily be obfuscation.

Olberman's been championing this cause for what - three weeks? Bev has been working on this for several years...and she (unlike another I could mention) is NOT a whore for NBC!

[Eric J in MN]

80. Olbermann thinks that Bev Harris should have agreed to

another interview after his people cancelled the first on they scheduled with her.

She doesn't want to agree to another interview on "Countdown."

Both positions are fine by me.

[pointsoflight]

84. Am I the only one that can see where both of them are coming from?

[ClassWarrior]

88. Why do you assume that there are??

I can't say I know for sure how many people side with one or the other. Actually, I think most of the people here are like me: They don't side with either Bev or Keith, they think both are doing well by us in some ways and poorly in others, and that the real enemy is not Bev or Keith or Kerry or anyone else except the Radical RW and the Corporate Media.

But that's just a guess on my part.

NGU.

[AmyCrat]

94. I think a good guess :)

[Skinner]

97. Continue discussion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104119&mesg_id=104119