Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread.

[Skinner]

This thing is getting way out of hand, and it's starting to take over this forum. I think a little order is needed.

If you want to discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris, you may do so in this thread. I am going to instruct the moderators to lock down other threads about this topic and direct them here.

For reference:

Keith Olberman's blog: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

Bev Harris's response: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

The DU Admins may make a statement about this issue later.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Skinner, can you tell me what has happened?

What is going on with Bev Harris?

[gorbal]

66. Please

Can everyone please read Bev's response to Oberman's blog on blackboxvoting.org, before you respond. She has her own side of the story as well:)

[eleny]

2. Thank you {{{Skinner}!!! n/t

[w13rd0]

3. Thank you...

...it's all quite counterproductive.

[Jersey Devil]

4. Contrary to rumors spread here, I am NOT Keith Olbermann

If I were Keith Olbermann....er, wait a minute, I already did a thread on that.

I guess you're right about cleaning up but I think everyone is about burned out on that by now anyway.

:-)

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. And I am not Bev Harris

;)

[Cadence]

84. Yes I'm about burned out on it. But I guess

I'm not sure I follow Keith's logic about leading into the Bev storming the retirement ceremony story (which according to Bev's site was originally supposed to be a meeting where LePore gave a speech about election records retention) by claiming that her actions give fuel to tin foil hat theorists.

I just can't help but think if the situation were reversed and there were significant voting irregularities with a Democratic advantage. If Republicans were getting turned away and shut out by Election officials for records requests and they stormed an Elections officials meeting with court papers demanding media attention for the fair release of records in order to ensure a fair voting process. They wouldn't be touted as tin foil hat loonies they would be seen as hero's for democracy.

I think this double standard for Democrats and Republicans is just becoming more and more prevalent and obvious everyday.

Take the Democratic National Convention: media coverage leading up to it was filled with all kinds of warnings about how the Democrats better not seem to harsh or attacking because that will really turn voters off! So they didn't.

Then the RNC happens and no advisory from the media to them about what they can or can't do. It was more an air of holding their breath in anticipation wondering what the "more powerful team was going to do" They came out swinging with both fists, attacking, taking things out of context and telling outright lies in some instances and the media lauded them for it.
THEN they (the media) said, Well I guess the Democrats just didn't communicate as powerfully.

I support Keith and I appreciate his coverage but I can't help but feel he was a little off on the way he reported on her actions. It felt unnecessary to tell us how to think about her actions instead of just letting us decide on our own.

[knowbody0]

5. wise words

[YellowDoginthehouse]

6. THANK YOU!!! n/t

n/t

[floridadem30]

7. Thank you

[ursacorwin]

8. please make a statement skinner

i'm so confused.

[noclonyofthechimp]

9. agree...thanks

[Dr Ron]

10. Olbermann Interview

I posted this in a previous thread on Olbermann, but if all the talk is going to be combined here I thought I'd give the link for those who missed it:

http://209.200.80.136/ojr/stories/041130glaser/

Olbermann talks about investigating the election and about blogging.

[intelle]

11. Thank you very much Skinner n/t

[Alizaryn]

12. Thrilled to see order established..

My only hope is that they both step back and work it out. They are both important people that have earned many of our respect. Blasting one or the other is not going to help. IMO

[farmbo]

13. All Praise and Thanks to the Magnificent Uber-Lord, Skinner!

Thanks for calling a cease fire!

:bounce:

[SueZhope]

14. Smart move ..Thank you

Nice to meet you Skinner.

I look forward to hearing your wisdom on this issue.
Thanks!!!

[Darknyte7]

15. Finally!

Thanks for stepping in to stop the madness...

[rodeodance]

25. he is taking his own advice--being accurate with sources (see below)

from the interview:

OJR: Do you have any other thoughts on the blogosphere and journalism?

KO: I gave a piece of advice in one of my blogs and it seemed to resonate with a lot of people. There's a freshness, a wide-eyed quality, to everybody getting into this. But with that, there is a lack of control. This can be overcome if bloggers consider their sources, and identify them as fully as possible. At ESPN, they always used to ask me why I would say "The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports..." rather than just saying "reportedly" when the latter was journalistically acceptable. My answer applies to the bloggers: a) because it's right, and b) because if the source is wrong about the story, you have avoided people thinking you were the one who screwed up.

[scurvy_n_disastrous]

16. mucho gracias

imho, this whole bev/keith thang was getting much too parochial. let them communicate, and we'll go from there. meanwhile, ohio is the top, though far from the only, priority. 2ç...

[DubyaSux]

17. A few examples...

...of things she's said and has not backed up...

Here's her rock-solid proof of a hack she found that exposes fraud. I'm sure Keith would be interested in this as well:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID70/1995.html

Here's her lockdown:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2636130

Here's where she says she has hard evidence (i.e. "We base this on hard evidence..."):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2602324

She always says she has stuff, but nobody's seen it. Keith Olbermann just invited her into everybody's living room throughout America and the world, and she gave him the finger.

If she has something, now's the time.

[KoKo]

19. Read her statement on the BBV site that Skinner provided in his post.

She explains her side, there.

[Walt Starr]

39. Links are broken

Could you repair?

[DubyaSux]

45. Sorry..links fixed....

[KoKo]

49. removed by poster.

[Walt Starr]

50. I was responding to the links provided by Dubyasux n/t

[pointsoflight]

18. Excellent solution, thank you.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

21. Thank you Skinner! :) n/t

[saracat]

20. BBV needs PR help desperately

I have been reading all the BBV responses including Bev's to this situation and none of them hang together. I am not dissing Bev or her work but a few things are obvious. One is ,she needs to replace herself with a more credible spokesperson. And BBV needs to hire a PR person immediately. She has done a lot of damage to the cause with her recent activities. Even her surrogates on this board are antagonizing people. They seem to know NOTHING about television production.Therin might lie the confusion. Bev had an obligation to get back to the producer, not the other way around.That is just not how business is done.And people are frequently canceling. Bev needs Keith.He doesn't need her.

[AmyCrat]

22. Agree. Well said. n/t

[Coexist]

31. My .02

Okay - go easy on me, this is my first post here after several weeks of lurking.

In my opinion, bickering over which "General" is better is a big waste of energy. Both Keith and Bev are sticking their necks out for us. I will not choose between them. They are both great people, and infighting will solve nothing. Voter fraud 2004 is growing and we are experiencing growing pains. It is normal, and we need ALL of our generals -in the war room and boots on the ground. I see Keith as our War room guy and Bev as having boots on the ground. BOTH are important, and we need to give them their space to feel around this issue and deal with it as they deem fit. As long as the word is getting out - I am content.

[BeFree]

48. Great advice .... NOT

Bev has handled this herself and it is not good advice to publically berate her, for her and her team's actions. It would be better in this case for you to just bite your tongue, put down the keyboard and walk away from the computer when you wish to criticize Bev without there being any constructive action forthcoming from such criticism.

All you are doing is opening yourself up to being likewise criticized. If you absolutely feel that you must run your mouth at Bev, do so privately, please.

Added on edit: Personally, I have found it wise to blow off the media at times. We just have to trust that Bev has her reasons.

[AmyCrat]

56. If you think the Repubs always "win" by blowing off the media

you're dead wrong.
You have to learn to play the game, and play it smart.

[BeFree]

73. And you know how?

Pray, tell us everything: How?

I'll stick with trusting Bev. She's the one doing the work and she's made it this far, with, I might add, a whole lot of sniping from the peanut gallery.

And don't tell me I'm dead wrong, cause you don't know the first thing about me or my activities. And, it seems you don't about Bev's, either.

[tbuddha]

79. Keith's producer never talked to Bev

Bev never told his producer she wouldn't come on the show. Something is now getting worked out though.

[saracat]

93. You say, she, the producer got voice mail. She would have left a message.

If Bev was bust, the call should have been returned for her. If there was no response to a message the producer would have been logical to assume lack of interst.

[tbuddha]

116. Read everything I wrote

She "claimed" that when she called she got a message that Bev's voicemail was full.. they are going over it now.

[Ducks In A Row]

94. Playing their game doesn't win us anything

Bev has been giving interviews, but to people who do not censor her.

It's a fool's game to play by the MSM's rules.

[saracat]

96. You have to be on MSM first in order not to play by their rules.

[smartvoter]

23. I agree with you, but she appears to be chief cook and bottlewasher type.

And we're both going to be flamed now.

[Cocoa]

27. Bev's profession is PR

the name of her firm is Talion, based in the Seattle area.

[smartvoter]

30. Well, she should quit her day job, then. :-)

[AmyCrat]

32. doesn't mean she's good at it as her OWN representative

Whether PR is your speciality or not, sometimes you need to hire another person so they can be objective, and help to keep you grounded.

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. Kind of like how an attorney will usually hire another lawyer

to represent them in court.

[saracat]

44. Well. I do PR as well, and she stinks at it.JMHO

[Cocoa]

51. stinks at it like a fox

Bev is a PR genius, Jim Jones would be impressed how big her cult has gotten.

[saracat]

52. But ,the point is to put a positive spin on your efforts, she is failing.

Contrary to popular opinion, not all publicity is good publicity. And I saw her on TV. Didn't help the image.

[smartvoter]

55. No argument from me on this.

[BeFree]

61. And now you have failed, saracat

Your image is tarnished. Your sniping is ill mannered and destructive and has no value whatsoever to someone who has been following Bev for years now.

Bad PR, saracat. Stinks.

[saracat]

69. Constructive criticism Be Free. Bev has done a great job

at the investigative aspects of this case but without mainstream attention it will go no where. She needs Keith .Keith doesn't need her. Rule number one. Don't piss off the media. No question she has. We may not like MSM but we need them. If it isn't on TV it didn't happen. Too few opportunities are given to promote this issue for anyone to blow it by a pissing match.If I were Keith, after I saw her demand for a retraction, I wouldn't let her near my show. JMHO.

[BeFree]

88. Not constructive here

Privately, maybe. But not here on DU. It makes no sense.

Bev does not need Keith, not if she's gonna be played. He needs her. He needs her to support his stance about fraud, if that's what he's up to.

Look, it's fine to have a question, it's another to snipe at Bev the way you are doing. You say you are good at PR? Well then act like it and quit the two-bit sniping.

I don't know you from squat, but I do know Bev, and I trust her more than I ever will you.

[saracat]

103. WOW! Bev is more important than Keith? If you represent her in any way

and say that no wonder the PR is in trouble. I hope you don't speak for Bev. Do you? Does she think she doesn't need Olberman?

[hlthe2b]

I think many of us have followed Bev for years and are staying way clear

of sniping or criticizing, BeFree. But, we also want desperately for her to succeed. While this may manifest as second-guessing, which I suppose can be annoying, I think many here have the best of intentions. I see someone who has almost single-handedly taken on one of the most important issues prediciting the survival of our US democracy. While many are eager to help, the task is monumental and we all know it.

Inevitably, someone taking this on will be criticized and part of our responsbility here is to try to soothe the inadvertly wounded feelings and keep everyone focused on the big picture. That inevitably must include trying to tamp down some of the attacks which are counterproductive and often develop a life of their own. But, at the same time, should we not be able to try to offer constructive advice to Bev?

I sense that many here desperately want to soothe the increasingly "troubled waters," and keep us on track. The question is how?

[BeFree]

100. Constructive advice?

Across this board? You should know better than that. A private email is the only way to offer constructive advice to someone of Bev's position. Not sniping away as some here have done. Look at the petty comments above... That's not constructive, that's knifing.

[hlthe2b]

123. I agree that any direct advice should be delivered in private.

And, I agree that some of the sniping has been pure venting-- hurt feelings speaking, compounding misunderstandings, old wounds, etc....It is painful to see these wars break out against our own on DU. If it is painful to me, it has to be painful to Bev and her crew--but also to those who feel strongly they've been worked hard on the efforts and somehow are being swept aside or whatever the "hurt."

But, I have also seen discussion of strategy, which is legitimate, imo. How can we offer constructive advice without discussing the hows, whys, etc?

[molly]

78. Credibility - remember Dan Rather?

we all know fer sure that * did not complete his service. Rather had been in the business for years and look what happened to him. I missed all of this and was shocked when I saw these threads. However, I am a quick study. Noone out there knows Bev and as much as we love, admire and respect her, they will crucify her and KO without credible proof.

[hlthe2b]

68. Bev is probably wonderful at PR when representing someone else..

i think it is very different to try to do so on your own behalf... Good PR usually requires some detachment and clearly all of us are deeply invested in this cause.

I don't take that as criticism of Bev nor her own PR skills--just the fact that the task is becoming massive, and like the physician who knows that they lack the detachment and objectivity to treat his/her own family members--perhaps Bev could similarly benefit from some PR help from outside the "cause."

[BeFree]

113. Perhaps

But that ain't how she's doing it and she is doing it; not like us, sitting back all comfy and safe.

Perhaps no one ever offered to do her PR? Perhaps she can't afford someone to do PR? If either of those two cases are true then no one has grounds to criticize.

[hlthe2b]

57. It is a very specific skill to deflect criticism and to maintain focus on

your issues. Most of us get to emotionally attached to our work, our cause, our truth. I agree totally saracat. Beve needs to be able to focus on the investigation and let those who are a bit more distant from the nitty gritty and are specifically skilled in PR, the art of persuasion, and the media take this over for her. She also needs a spokesperson to interact with all her supporters--at DU and elsewhere.

I could not take this level of criticism if I were working as hard as I'm sure she is and so personally invested and I doubt anyone here could either. If it manifests in inpatience or anger at supporters, as it appears to have to date, then all the more reason to hire a professional or two--who are not necessarily so vested in the cause.

[Jersey Devil]

24. I think pointsoflight's solution is the best compromise

"Ask her to show the polling tapes exist--that they're officially signed polling tapes that were in the trash--but without revealing the specifics (i.e., the exact polling tapes she has and what the numbers show) that would damage the lawsuit.

This would demonstrate highly suspicious (and illegal) activity on the part of the Volusia officials, yet would not give those officials information they could use to cover their tracks if there are discrepencies in the counts."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x103672#103888

Hopefully Bev will realize that he just HAS to show him something.

[jamboi]

26. Thank you! You're my hero! :-) n/t

[crispini]

28. Thanks, Skinner!

A voice of sanity.

[jmatthan]

29. Why a thread like this?

Both KO and BH are working to expose a fraudulent election.

There should be no discusson about either of these two indivduals or their individual methods.

KO and BH should work along different routes so that all the eggs are not in the same basket. They will finally merge at the right time and place and be synergistic.

It is not their egos we should be wasting our time discussing.

We should all be asking what each one of us, all over the world, can do to help these two people reach the aim we want .

GET RID OF BUSH and bring America back into the respected nations of this world!!

Any infighting will be exploited by our opponents to the fullest.

If anyone can do the jobs better than KO or BH, do come forward with your proposals and suggestions, I am sure we will all support your efforts with equal enthusiasm.

We need tens of KOs and BHs if we are to succeed!!

Petty jealousy, little knowledge, half-baked ideas, will only destroy our cause and democracy in America and around the world.

Regards

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[Political_Junkie]

43. Thank you, Jmatthan.

[smartvoter]

33. Maybe they both suck and so do we.

Just a thought... :-)

[AmyCrat]

35. LOL SV!! n/t

[Jersey Devil]

37. Is this sort of a cogito ergo sum argument?

Maybe we are all eraser dust on the floor of a cosmic classroom and they have just finished erasing a bad comedy skit script from the blackboard?

[AmerDem]

36. So the thread that Bev Harris actually responded to is locked?

She had many posts in that thread and everyone is forced to discuss this issue without further detail of her follow up statements? Wonderful.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2777690&mesg_id=2777690&page=

[Patsy Stone]

38. So, this from the actual KO transcripts...

"And if you view the whole recount and voting irregularity saga as a bunch of folks running around with aluminum foil on their heads to block out the rays from the government satellites, you may have gotten ammunition for your argument.

Last night at the retirement ceremony for the controversial election supervisor of Palm Beach County, Florida, Theresa LePore, the equally controversial voting activist, Bev Harris, who you see here on file tape, burst into the conference room of the Orlando hotel, via an exit door, strode to the podium announcing she was serving LePore with papers as part of a lawsuit papers over voting records in the county. She was accompanied by another woman and a man with a video camera. The county supervisors who staged the surprise tribute to Miss. LePore at first they thought it was part of a farewell skit. It was not. Ms. Harris, founder of the organization Black Box Voting left the room as she came, only with the supervisors screaming and booing at her."

1) He was talking to those that don't believe, the ones that think we are crazy.
2) Right or wrong, she looked a little crazy. He was calling her on it.
3) He said "controversial" when referring to Butterfly LePore, and when referring to Bev -- both statements are correct.
4) Accompanied by "a man with a video camera" doesn't in any way explain who that person was. So, no one ever said on the air either that it was or wasn't her cameraman. I'm sure after the flaming we've got going on here, he'll clarify that.

As for that Blog of his...That was for US. To show he's listening and that he wants to get her on if she will come back. Period.

IMHO:
In the words of Jack Woltz: "She threw it all away just to make me look ridiculous. And a man in my position can't afford to be made to look ridiculous!"

[shireen]

41. let them work it out

There seems to be quite a few people here with too much time on their hands. All this back and forth is getting ridiculous. Give Bev and Keith a break, and let them work it out. Keith's just doing his job practising fact-based journalism (a rare breed in these times!). BBVorg is a few people facing a Floridian Goliath; they're overworked and probably sleep-deprived.

What gives us the right to judge KO and Bev? None of us really know what's going on. The best thing we can do is give them our support and good wishes.

TBuddha, thanks for your efforts.

- shireen in Baltimore

[righteous1]

42. Well after serious review of the facts

I have come to the definate conclusion that this has deteriorated to become a big plain ole pissin match

[Shopaholic]

46. Exactly. Why is it that we have to believe either/or and not both?

Why is it that there are certain personalities on this board who believe that someone has to be LYING in all of this--that someone has to be wrong and someone has to be right? It's all about Perspective, my friends. And some discretion and perspective would be very much appreciated at this point. In other words-some of you people need to chill the fuck out. Yes, I know that the issue at hand is crucial and critical but we need to look at this realistically and demand proof from Bev just as we have to demand from Keith that he cover all sides of this story. Personally, I believe that he has lived up to that end of the deal but I, sad to say, have some questions about Bev in light of recent events/statements. Just my opinion and as an ex-boyfriend of mine used to say, "Opinions are like assholes--everyone has one."

[Snivi Yllom]

53. because someone is lying

When two different parties make forceful statements that contradict each other one is wrong.

[KoKo]

59. Not necessarily....the truth could be somewhere in the middle. n/t

[Walt Starr]

71. In that case, both would be wrong

ergo, both would be lying to some degree.

[Shopaholic]

63. You missed my point entirely

I can believe with all sincerity that a certain event happened a certain way--you can believe with all certainty that it happened another way because of the subjective nature of the individual experience. A bystander could see the event in a totally different way than either one of us. I believe that Keith believes what happened happened just as I believe that Bev believes what happened happened--and I believe that they both are reporting what they believe to be the truth about their interactions. As the old saying goes, "There are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth". The truth is what lies in-between. Unless, of course, someone really is lying their ass off. I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here but at this point, I've got more reason to be inclined to believe KO over Bev. Don't get me wrong about Bev though--hell, I've donated $$$ to her for this fight, so you can hardly say that I don't support her in her mission. But at the moment, I've got some questions about tactics.

[Snivi Yllom]

77. im just not seeing the gray area

As the old saying goes, "There are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth".

Another possibility.

Perhaps they are both lying, and neither is truthful.

Keith is a media whore and would fuck his mother for higher ratings.
Bev has her own agenda that benefits her.

[Shopaholic]

95. Good one Snivi

Excellent point on both personalities involved.

[tbuddha]

74. Bev has sounded very truthful to me when I talk to her

However, I see a lot of crap on MSNBC that doesn't jive. So I know who I trust.

[Patsy Stone]

47. Yes.

And I am going back to work now...

:)

p.s. I enjoy your posts.

[cry baby]

62. While everyone is p***ing on each other...

the issue of proving voter fraud is getting lost. Bev and Keith need to work together - the time is running out on this issue. Keith needs to prove that something fishy is going on or he is going to have to move on to other things to talk about. Bev, please help him - help us all - call him.

Also, being a newbie, I can't quite figure out why this thread was moved.

edited for spelling

[tbuddha]

75. Keith needs to figure out how to get her on the show

His producer is stonewalling

[cry baby]

111. If she is impossible to get ahold of

as in her voice mail being full, she needs to call him. If she wants to get the message out, she must contact him.

[cry baby]

105. I understand why the thread was moved now

I was so involved in reading that one thread that I didn't notice that several others have popped up in all the forums. Thanks admin for consolidating our thoughts.

[tbuddha]

54. BTW....Bev to be on Olberman soon...bet on it

[AmyCrat]

60. Thats a GOOD thing n/t

[Cocoa]

65. maybe

or maybe Keith still feels the way he did when he made his last public statement, that Bev is not worth having on his show.

Who knows what will happen in the future?

p.s. same with Wayne Madsen. If anyone cares what Olbermann's opinions are on Harris and Madsen, his most recent public statements on each is that he doesn't believe them.

[AmyCrat]

72. Honest question

Ask yourself why. Is it what they say, or how they say it?
(not inflamatory, honest question)

[Walt Starr]

67. That's probably been the whole point of this entire thing

Stop beating around the bush and make an appearance on Countdown happen, from both sides of the controversy!

[Jersey Devil]

76. with or without the tapes? That's my only question

But if I understood you correctly in your string that was just locked, Bev no longer has the tapes since they've been turned over to prosecutors. Is that it?

Which is it? She has them or she doesn't have them?

[tbuddha]

82. Don't know where they are...but they're not in her custody

They are stashed away

[Jersey Devil]

91. 10 minutes ago you inferred the prosecutors had the tapes

Now you say they are "stashed away". Not only that, but we really have no idea who you are and since Bev herself posted on DU today I frankly don't think we should listen to another word you say unless someone from BBV confirms you are speaking for them.

[tbuddha]

101. I sent you my number, call me up then

You need to stop the bashing and maybe if you talk to me on the phone you'll realize I'm no bullshitter.

[Jersey Devil]

106. Sorry charlie, I'm no tuna

There is no way that I am calling you.

But which is it now, since you never answered me? The tapes are with prosecutors, which you said 15 minutes ago, or "stashed away", which you said 10 minutes ago? Or is there a new version?

[theboss]

83. I want to know the person posting all this stuff is

I don't understand why two long-time, active posters on this forum suddenly have conduits.

[Jersey Devil]

85. yes, a very good question, especially since Bev was on DU today

in the General Discussion forum at about 1:30 in a string we all seemed to have missed when it was locked and redirected here.

I don't recall her saying anything about the tapes not being in her possession anymore anywhere.

[Jersey Devil]

98. PS - the link to the GD thread with Bev

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690

[tbuddha]

108. I've asked you to call me so we're not going round and round

on here...Look, it might be easier for me to explain to you on the phone...I sent you my number via email and PM

[Jersey Devil]

114. I don't call imaginary internet bbs characters, sorry

So? "Stashed away" or with prosecutors?

[tbuddha]

118. I assure you I'm very real...What does BBS stand for anyway?

[WHAT]

58. We Want The Truth...

the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WHY?...

is the media lying ('scuse me...editing)? facts into irrelevancy? Whatever happened to facts? Facts don't need to be "vetted" by a frivilous media.

Something is going-on. It ain't pretty.

I want to know the truth via evidence which is all that Bev is gathering. What is wrong with gathering evidence and presenting it up for scrutiny. I want scrutiny of facts, not scrutiny of position...the one should follow the other...a position shouldn't imply the facts.

Something is terribly wrong with the media, intentionaly wrong.

WHY?...

[Stand and Fight]

64. kick

[Hobbes199]

70. They'll work it out, sheesh.

Keith is being a journalist, he's never said that he believes one way or another. He's covering the issue and asking the questions. That's what we're looking for. I didn't even think _anything_ strange about the show last night until coming on here this morning. It'll all work out, let's get back to work.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

80. Here's what no one has been able to answer for me...

What exactly is Bev Harris' beef with Keith Olbermann?

I mean, I don't think that Olbermann was attacking Harris in his blog -- at least not for refusing to come on his show. I think he was offering an explanation to viewers who had written him asking why he didn't have Harris on to show the polling tapes she allegedly found. His explanation was that she declined the show's offer to do so. He also criticized Harris for the LePore incident. I think he was saying that because of that stunt that it was time for Harris to provide some evidence. What I got was that he is willing to have her on the show but only if the tapes are part of the deal.

At that point, Harris could have either:

Accepted what amounted to a public invitation by Olbermann to come on his show and bring the tapes with her.

Declined the offer and explained why.

For example, AmyCrat suggested a wording for the first scenario:

"We are investigating the possibility that there has been a misunderstanding between the Countdown with KO Show and BlackBoxVoting.org regarding his recent editorial. We do wish to appear on the show, and will work with KO and his staff to resolve any conflicts and keep you posted."

Here is a possibility for the second scenario:

"It is possible there has been a misunderstanding between the Countdown with KO Show and BlackBoxVoting.org. No request for Volusia County polling tapes was conveyed to us by the show. However, even if the request had been made, we would have had to decline. We do not wish to share those tapes at this time for the following reasons: (states reasons). If Mr. Olbermann is willing to have us appear on the show even without the polling tapes, we would be glad to do so. We will discuss this possibility with KO and his staff and keep you posted."


One last point. I see no reason Bev Harris should be protected from criticism on DU. We criticize Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Gore, Nader, Dean, Kerry, Kucinich, Bartcop, Al Franken, Randi Rhodes, Amy Goodman, Bob Somerby, Dan Rather, Jimmy Carter, Michael Moore, and every other activist, politician, and journalist even remotely associated with "the left". I don't see why Bev Harris is any different.

[AmyCrat]

87. well said and you already know I agree

Not only should Bev (or Keith) not be protected from criticism, it's our obligation to point out where we think the message or the cause gets off track (when it might hurt the cause).

[tbuddha]

90. She's mad because he makes her sound like a fraud

MSNBC, by Keith's own admission, had her scheduled to come on before, then they cancelled at the last second. After she cleared her schedule to come on. It was rude.

Now, without warning, Keith has accused her of refusing to come on the show when, by his own admission, he hasn't even talked to her. His producer claimed that she called and couldn't get through and Bev's voice mail was full, well, that's not the same as refusing. Not to mention, Bev claims her mailbox wasn't full and the poducer could have left a message. Could all be Verizon's fault, who knows?

anywho, it looks like they will get it worked out and Bev will be on soon.

[SueZhope]

81. TOPIC locked SOME BAD NEWS AND SOME GOOD NEWS

Does any one know why this topic got locked up?
Was it because we should be posting on this
thread?

thanks

[theboss]

86. Yes, and here are my questions

Everything is here now.

And on that topic, I had a few questions.

1. Who is the person that started it. And why is he/she speaking for long-time, active posters?

2. What criminal investigation is taking place and who is leading it?

3. Where is the "evidence" now?

[tbuddha]

97. I started it

1. I am speaking for Bev because I've been on the phone this morning with her.

2. the criminal investigation is in Volusia County

3. Bev has it stashed...why the hell would she make that public knowledge?

[theboss]

102. You said she didn't have it

And if there is a criminal investigation, why is it not there?

Why are you making this sound like "The Pelican Brief?"

[AmyCrat]

104. Pelican's wear briefs??? (just a little corny humor) n/t

[cry baby]

119. lol, thanks for the giggle

[tbuddha]

110. huh? the tapes are stashed for safekeeping

Why is she gonna tell people where they are at? I PMed you my phone #...call me if you have questions

[tbuddha]

122. I PMed you my number...just call me so were not going round and

round endlessly

[SueZhope]

107. Thank you

what seems odd to me is that I have noticed a pattern
Bev often seems to have important things that could turn over the election
then it turns into nothing that important.
Is any one else noticing this pattern?

Not that she should be telling any one on the phone
but she needs to be telling the kerry lawyers

[AmyCrat]

115. yes... I've noticed

and I somehow manage to hold out hope that one of her "BIG NEWS COMING SOON" announcements will amount to more than another "BIG NEWS COMING SOON" announcement.

I believe in what BBV is doing, just not always with how they do it.

[LittleClarkie]

89. Ding, ding!

Exactamundo.

[tbuddha]

92. yes

[SueZhope]

99. Please answer

Theboss post 22
questions...thanks!!

[Kelvin Mace]

109. Thanks Skinner! Now, to answer the post by TruthIsAll

Remember, the Diebold emails where their own workers couldn't believe what happened?
How did we find out about it?
That was Bev.

Who got the Diebold emails?

That would be me.

Watch "Invisible Ballots" and hear Bev herself explain that the memos were sent to me. Now, here is the really funny part. Bev was DEAD SET AGAINST me getting and reading the memos. She was CONVINCED is was a "Diebold honey trap" designed to discredit her. When she found out I was going to get the memos, she threatened to call her lawyer to break the contract to disassociate herself from me in order to "protect herself". She even accused ME of hacking Diebold for the memos (a compliment, since I am not a hacker of that caliber, but then, maybe not, Diebold wasn't exactly Fort Knox).

Once she realized that they were genuine and that they had also been leaked to a Wired! reporter who might publicize them, she beat them to the punch by leaking them to the folks who posted them.

Bev then publicized them, but indirectly. She leaked them to others who had the actually took the risks to post them. If you recall she only linked to such sites. As long as there was the threat of legal action, Bev was always careful on the record to put the emails in my hands.

Consider the 22,000 Georgia Diebold machine "fixes" just before the 2002 elections.
Who told us about it?
That was Bev.

Again, read the original book and watch "Invisible Ballots" Bev did not know what she had found and called me to explain to her what she had found. I understood what the files were and Roxanne Jekot and her team of programmers were the ones who did all the grunt work of reading and interpreting the code. This would be the same people Bev later accused of "stealing her work" in order to file a qui tam suit and make money.

Consider the TV show when Howard Dean learned how to hack the votes using Access.
Who showed him how it could be done?
That was Bev.

Bev was able to do that after she was taught the process inside and out by Roxanne and her team.

Thank you for the opportunity to clear this up AGAIN.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Hobbes199]

112. Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread only please.

Kick.

[Guava Jelly]

117. I FULLY AGREE WITH KIETH

She needs to put up or shut up .
This shouldnt be about Bev Harris this should be about getting those votes counted.
If she has this evidence then show it time is running out.
I would hate to find it a hoax
Read again what Kieth wrote.
He was spot on...

[BlueDog2u]

120. Thanks, Skinner!

Its good to allow discussion, but I agree, the number of threads has been a terrible distraction.

[Goldeneye]

121. Maybe neither of them are lying

Its possible that the MSNBC people canceled bev and told Olbermann she had canceled on him. This would make bev seem flaky and Olbermann would doubt her credibility. Does anyone doubt that a conservative network would pull something like this?

[tbuddha]

125. It was one producer in particular according to Bev

Whether it was partisanship or just plain incompetence is still up in the air

[loritooker]

124. Keith Olbermann e mailed me at 8 AM PST today

Picking up on an e mail exchange I had with him last night he said this morning,

"Here's the grief I'm getting: Ms. Harris has basically spammed by offices today with threatening calls and messages.

"...another faux pas like that (the Cuyahoga and Florida Dixiecrat anaylses proving meaningless) would relegate the story to the supermarket tabloids"

[Skinner]

126. Continue discussion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x104661