So who took Bush over 50% if he really won?

[goldengreek]

That's one thing I'm curious about. I know he and Kerry were both polling about 48% going into the election. So if the youth vote -- which was consistently underestimated -- went for Kerry, and the undecideds went for Kerry, who supposedly went for Bush? Anyone have any ideas on what the party line is here?

Maybe it was just that the Hispanics went much more for Bush than we thought they would. But then again, don't we "know" that from what the exit polls were telling us?

(I'm presuming the doctored poll numbers were used here.)

But if that's true, any reason given as to why they were obviously lying to pollsters in the weeks going into this election?

I know this is just another red flag for vote fraud, but I'm just wondering if anyone's heard any explanations for this.

[Richardo]

1. They say the yoots stayed home - did not vote in greater numbers

...than in past elections. At least that's the word we were getting from the local Dem committee.

[goldengreek]

2. What are yoots?

Youths? But the last word I heard was they had actually turned up after all.

[On the Road]

4. "What is a Yute?"

"Oh, excuse me, your honor. The two YOUTHS."

(from 'My Cousin Vinnie')

[life_long_dem]

55. That movie is one of my favorites. n/t

[Richardo]

5. Reference...

"Uh - did you say 'yoots'?"

[goldengreek]

19. That is such a cool photo!

You must be very proud. I know it's just a shame that actor was never used to play a lot of different "power" players like he did in My Cousin Vinny and Secret of My Success.

[Yupster]

49. He was perfect in that role

Courtly yet southern at the same time. A very believable southern judge.

[driver8]

56. How do you guys get these photos up so fast??!! n/t

[jamboi]

3. That has been studied and turns out 2 B incorrect. They were greater #,but

still the same in overall percentage. Everyone came out and raised the numbers overall.

[flordehinojos]

6. "yoots?"

as in MY COUSIN VINNY?--what a wonderful dialogue between "Vincent Gambini" and the guy who used to play in the Monsters can't recall his name now.

I know many "yoots" who went out to vote. my previously registed as a republican now registered and turned democrat heart and soul son and his girlfriend -- two prime examples and many of their friends.

in fact, i had the pleasure, at his request, of accompanying my son to the polling place.

[RaulVB]

8. Well, they are wrong...

In fact there are reports about an important increase of the youth vote in the last election.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

17. Showed up in record #'s and gave Kerry a 10 pt. margin

More than any other age groups margin.

""Both parties should be seeing their future in the eyes of young voters," concludes David King, the associate director of Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government. After outlining a clear argument that young voters did in fact turnout at the polls -- that it was the highest turnout percentage since 1972, at least 20.9 million Americans under 30 voted on November 2nd (4.6 million more than in 2000) and young people were especially active in battleground states -- King says that, if anything, we learned a lot about the future of American politics"

http://blog.rockthevote.com/

2004 youth turnout - 51.6%
2000 youth turnout - 42.3%

http://www.rockthevote.com/home.php

[theboss]

7. Rove won his bet on the Evangelicals

Anyone who knows anything about Washington was aware of Rove's theory of the 4 million Evangelicals who stayed home in 2000 because they weren't sold on Bush. Everything this White House did for four years was designed around getting those 4 million to the polls in 2004. It happened and there's the difference.

The electoral map was pretty much the same as it was 4 years ago. Turnout was up. Kerry got the Youth. Bush got the Christians. The Christians won.

[bunny planet]

12. Are there enough evangelicals to have secured Bush 7 million more votes?

I think not.

[snot]

16. But I thot BBC reported turnout in that group was DOWN

I read that either BBC or the Economist--someone "respectable"--reported turnout among right-wing christians was DOWN in 2004 and has been trending down during last two cycles or more.

[RaulVB]

18. If you believe a 100% of them showed up to vote

And that is a lie, you still have to explain 5 million of votes for Bush that don't match the polls before election.

[googly]

59. Next time we will run Lions against the Christians...hahaha

[mdb]

9. Wrong on no youth turnout. Also no increase in evangelist. Keep trying...

An increase of 4.6 million voters from 2000.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/04/youth_came_through_with_big_turnout/

[goldengreek]

26. Holy crap, MDB!

Exit polls missed a lot of the youth vote because they voted absentee in such huge numbers! This makes the shift for Bush in the final tally even more.. uhm... 'shifty.'

[EFerrari]

44. Youth vote & absentee ballots

Since I'm new here, sorry if you've already gone over this ground.

Anyone been reading about the "disappearances" of absentee ballots in OH & FL? Half a million voters chose absentee in OH; I haven't heard hard numbers on how these people fared. If I remember right, thousands of FL absentee ballots went missing in FL. And although some were replace, late, the ACLU lost a suit seeking an extension of the submission deadline.

Around the country, the student vote was targeted just as the black vote was. So, their ballots went missing at a higher rate; they also got letter saying that if they voted in the wrong precinct their fin aid would be cut off -- without indicating the right precinct. And all the other suppressive tricks.

If those kids ever try to vote again, we need to erect a momument to their tenacity.

[newyawker99]

50. Hi sfexpat2000!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mdb]

54. Good question... I can't find any info on this. n/t

[IAMREALITY]

10. Because there was a group that every body forgot to Poll

Not Youths, Undecided's, etc... But there was another group, very important group, that came out in record numbers to support the Shrub. That is how he got his votes..

It was the Computer Keyboard group.

[witchhazl]

15. Exactamente! (lol) n/t

[napi21]

11. I hate to say it, but I really think it's all charisma.

Think about it. Clinton won over BushI, and Dole. Kennedy won over Nixon, Eisenhower won over Stevenson (do you remember Sevenson?), Reagan, etc. Not always, but most of the time, the majority just likes the candidate better!

Should it be that way? Of course not!! But it is.

JK was smarter, wiser, had better policies, and was MUCH more articulate, but even I as a supporter kept yelling at my TV "John...SMILE! Relax, and be a real person."

[IAMREALITY]

13. My Reply

:puke:

[napi21]

14. I agree with you, but it sure seems like the way it is. n/t

[IAMREALITY]

20. You Agree With Me That

the ignorance displayed in the post I responded to made me want to puke?

Hmmmmm, that's odd...

[napi21]

33. Did I misunderstand you? I thought you meant the idea that

people vote for very stupid reasons made you puke! Me too!

But many people vote for really dumb reasons.

Reasons I was told why someone wasn't voting for Kerry:

He looks like Jay Leno.
He's is divorced.
He has too much money.
He's not like me.
He's too serious.
I don't like him

There are many more really dumb reasons. Things a candidate cannot change! And many of them actually fit both candidates, like the has too much money thing.

If that's not what you meant, I guess I don't understand you.

[IAMREALITY]

35. What I Meant Was

The thought that someone ACTUALLY believes for a second that the shrub's CHARISMA was a leading factor in the election was enough to make me want to puke.

Sorry...

[Catherine Vincent]

40. Yeah. Bush ain't got no damn charisma!

And if there are some voters that think that.....?:puke:

[RaulVB]

21. WTF???

Bush has the "charisma" of a serial killer!

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. You aren't seriously suggesting that the smirking chimp actually

charmed 51% of the population?

Watch Clinton in action. Look at Reagan. Then try to tell me that * has any charm whatsoever.

Bzzzt. Try again.

[napi21]

34. Yes I am. Not all 51%, but enough additional voters to make a diff.

He already had the fundie vote, and they pushed toat for all it was worth, but how many MEN just love the idea that shrub is a real cowboy! He walks like one, talks the "I say what I mean" stuff, and is just the tough guy. There are quite a few men who admire that! Remember, it wasn't getting everybody, it was getting enough of the nonpartisan voters to link to one of his images.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. C'mon. * defines "all hat, no cattle"

Nobody with an IQ higher than a grape would believe *'s cowbow act.

Oh. That's right. We are talking about * voters here, aren't we.

[John Q. Citizen]

22. I heard the 18 - 30 yr olds voting jumped 10% nationwide

My bet is that # should be as high or higher in a swing state.

I remember reading about lots of nursing homes bringing in thier charges for Bush on buses. I don't know if that was widespread. That's been the only traditionally non-voting population that I can think of - Nursing homes and other institutionally bound populations.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

24. Correct John Q - see post 17 n/t

[EFerrari]

23. Hispanics did not go out for Bush

Newsweek poll was revised down 10 points on Monday - after already having been debunked by a Hispanic pollster earlier last month. Hispanics voted +/- 60% for Kerry. (Because we know a p3ndejo when we see one <g>.)

[goldengreek]

27. You happen to have a link for that, sfexpat2000?

Looks like we've uncovered even more proof of fraud.

[EFerrari]

41. I'll go fish

have been reading so much all month, have mind mush.

[EFerrari]

42. This isn't the place I first found it, but the numbers are

about what I remember. (Btw, the "Latino vote" is not monolithic. With the exception of the older block of voter of Cuban extraction, we trend to Dems. Younger folk of Cuban extraction are trending to Dems. (Makes holiday difficult, no?)

"Hispanic vote less for Bush than exit polls showed" on the San
Angelo Standard-Times Web site:

http://www.sanangelostandardtimes.com/sast/news_politics/article/0,1897,SAST_4959_3369526,00.html

[librechik]

25. They let a guy named Diebold vote 3 and a half million times n/t

[Stand and Fight]

28. kick

[carolinalady]

29. DIEBOLD!!!!!!!! n/t

[democraticinsurgent]

31. one of the key points of the cover article today by Ernest Partridge!

Where did Bush's Eight Million Surplus Votes Come From?

Bush's popular vote total simply doesn't add up. As Marc Sapir explains:

<snip>

Did hordes of previously non-voting evangelicals turn out this time to sweep their born-again leader into power? Apparently not. Did a faction of the public incensed over liberal "immorality" (and at the same time unconcerned about the immorality of an illegal war, or of Republican greed and cruelty) vastly outnumber another faction concerned about the deteriorating economy? The CNN (Mitofsky) exit polls tell us that the numbers were essentially equal.

<snip>

Did the undecideds "break" for the incumbent? This has rarely happened in history, and even if, somehow, it happened this time, the few remaining undecideds would not have significantly added to Bush's total. Was there an eleventh-hour surge of popular support for Bush? Zogby's first post-election poll reported Bush's approval rating at 48%, and the percentage of those who agreed that the country was "moving in the right direction" at 47%.

<snip>
Eleven million more votes were cast in 2004 than were cast in 2000. We are expected to believe that of these Bush got eight million (73%) and John Kerry three million.

So we ask again: Where did George Bush's surplus eight million votes come from?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/12/02_mustnot.html

==============================

I had to snip the hell out of this to get it to 4 grafs. But be sure to read it. It's the best post-election summary i've read yet.

And this is a huge unanswered question--11M new votes and Bush gets 8M of them? That's just not plausible in any way, shape or form!!!

By itself, it ought to have set off alarm bells in the media and the DNC. Oh yeah, forget the media. But what's up with the DNC?

[mattclearing]

32. I think he did a much better job than Kerry courting...

...the imaginary friend vote.

[Nordic]

36. because Bush stole three million votes in CA TX and elsewhere

in order to make it look like he won the popular vote. Read the Madsen articles, he explains how it was done, and it all makes perfect sense.

Folks, get used to the idea: Nothing you've been told is true. Bush did NOT win this election. Kerry did, by over three million votes.

All evidence, except the vote count, points to Kerry winning big over Bush. The Repubs admitted they were taking care of the vote count right here:

http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater256.html

Nothing else is really worth talking about.

The "moral values"? Zogby proves that's a lie as well:

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10389

"American voters say urgent moral issues are peace, poverty and greed" is the headline.

NOTHING the mainstream media tells you anymore is true.

I know that's difficult to get used to, but GET USED TO IT!!!

[Zynx]

38. Undecideds went for Bush in the end.

There was little evidence that they actually broke for Kerry.

[bobbieinok]

39. eveidence?????????? exit polls??????? HA

[goldengreek]

46. That would be odd.

Considering they agreed overwhelmingly Bush lost all three debates. They usually go for the challenger anyway.

[StatGirl]

52. Nope, undecideds went for Kerry, according to CNN

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Scroll about halfway down to "When did you decide who to vote for?" The category "Today/ Last 3 Days" went for Kerry, 53% to 44%. That was 9% of the voters.

The numbers might look different if the results hadn't been tweaked, but then they would favor Kerry even more.

(BTW, the 2000 exit poll can be found at http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/epolls/US/P000.html)

(edit typo)

[goldengreek]

57. Not only that, StatGirl...

But people who decided the last month, the last three days, and the day of the election went for Kerry. Only the ones who'd decided the last week, 51% to 48%, voted for Bush, and that's the smallest group of late deciders of all (2%). The rest are, in the order listed above, 10%, 4%, and 5%. And those Kerry leads are very vigorous.

So there goes that lifeline for the Repug excuse machine.

[WI_DEM]

43. Women voters didn't vote for Kerry in the same #'s they did for Gore

or Clinton. Kerry won the female vote by only 4-pts compared to Gore winning by 11.

[goldengreek]

47. I'm wondering how people drew that conclusion.

Exit polls maybe? But that just begs the question of which exit polls are being consulted here. It's looking like both the Hispanic and youth vote for Kerry had been wildly underestimated. Women are probably next on the list.

In any event, we're right back to the original problem I had with the alledged Hispanic vote: were women just lying to the tracking poll people going into this election? And the exit poll people as well as they came out of the voting booth? And why would so many of them turn on Kerry like that?

[goclark]

45. Praise the Lord! I have been shouting this for a month!

I have been begging anyone to show us the Christian Right Voters standing in a long line!

I have asked for pictures of them begging to vote with only two BBV that worked.

Where were all those millions of Bush Young voters!?

I did not see anything like the crowds / ground swell of support.
No one was reporting that leading up to the election. Where was Zogby on that one?

If the numbers were soooo huge, why was it a secret until AFTER the fix was in?

Not saying that a lot didn't vote for Bush but I'm sure they would be proud to let us know how excited they were to stand in line for 10 hours while they read their Bibles.

It was a ROVE trick folks!

That way we could think they swung the vote.

[RaulVB]

48. Actually to respond this is to play their game

He did not win so NOBODY took him over 50%

Simple!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Yes, but it's an interesting angle, Let's assume the exits

were right - the makeup of the electorate. Is there anyway to take that and back into fraud proof somehow? I guess not, because they are all percentages.

[goldengreek]

58. Oh, but we're documenting the fraud as well.

These little games we play are just telling us to look for it. So far -- exit polls, tracking polls, whatever -- we can't find a single indication that Bush could have won this election. There's a reason a lot of us planned on turning into bed early on election night.

[StatGirl]

53. If you believe the exit polls, 7 million Gore voters did not vote in 2004

But all of the people who voted for Bush in 2000 voted in 2004 as well. The number-crunching is at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x5931.

Similarly, according to the exit poll, the party breakdown this year was 37% R, 37% D, 26% I. But in 2000, it was 39% D, 35% R, and 27% I.

That means we had 2.7 million more Democrats than in 2000, 2.3 million more Independents, and 6.9 million more Republicans. This might make sense if Democrats were leaving the party in droves.

2004 exit poll data:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

2000 exit poll data:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/epolls/US/P000.html

[googly]

60. It was the soccer moms scared into voting for shrub

with all those color coded terrorist alerts scred the shit out of them.