Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread. #2

[Skinner]

For reference:

Keith Olberman's blog: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

Bev Harris's response: http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[trumad]

1. As I said in my other thread...

I trust Andy Stephensons word about anything BBV.... So Andy, please report and quell this Bev Controversy.

[tbuddha]

2. Andy's sister died

He is in Texas mourning.

[Ducks In A Row]

28. I've lit a candle for Andy's sister.

and tbudda thanks for the report on the email you got from Bev.

I trust them to do what's needed to expose the fraud.

[greatauntoftriplets]

5. Andy is with his family.

His sister died on Tuesday, and the family is not taking it well.

[Snivi Yllom]

3. my oh my Countdown will be interesting tonight

[crispini]

4. I wanted to welcome FLDem5 in the other thread!

Your first post! :hi: Welcome to DU... you're weighing in on a hot topic... don't worry, it's not always like this. Good post BTW.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

6. This is a response to tbuddha's post #90 in the first thread.

But is she willing to bring the tapes?

It sounds like Olbermann wants her to appear, but ONLY if she brings the tapes. If she is unwilling to share the tapes, why would she think that Olbermann made her sound like a fraud when he claimed she was unwilling to share the tapes? I mean even if Olbermann's show never actually got through to Bev to make their request, what difference would it have made? She would have declined their offer anyway according to what you've said elsewhere (unless I misunderstood). Didn't you claim that you spoke to Bev and she does not want to share the tapes at this time? So why characterize Olbermann's statement as an "accusation" when it is essentially true?

And I don't know that "bumping" a guest in necessarily rude. At least I don't think it's out of the ordinary for the television industry. But, in any case, it seems unprofessional to gripe about it publicly.

[tbuddha]

30. You're making guesses here

"sounds like Olbermann wants her to appear, but ONLY if she brings the tapes."

"Sounds like"? You're making an assumption. I think if she can go on she may take the tapes with her, she may not... don't know as far as that goes. What I DO KNOW is that those tapes aren't gonna do anything to flip the election. They prove fraud in Volusia County ONLY.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

44. That's not a guess or assumption.

It's my reading of Olbermann's own blog:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6533008

Others may have a different interpretation, of course.

I never claimed that Bev Harris is sitting on evidence that will flip the election. I never even addressed the pros and cons of not revealing what evidence she has right now.

I just don't understand why she is so angry at Olbermann for saying she does not want to release the polling tapes when that is essentially the truth.

Gotta go now.

[theboss]

51. If she doesn't have evidence, what good is she as a guest?

Here's the bottom line: We got nothin'.

We've been talking for a month, running around in circles, looking under rocks for votes. And we have nothing. The New Hampshire recount showed that the vote was ok. The provisionals in OH came in and Kerry is still down by 120,000 votes. The papers in Fla recounted the Dixiecrat counties and found them to be kosher.

At some point, we need to offer some tangible proof of fraud or just admit that we got beat.

[Ducks In A Row]

83. "she doesn't have any evidence, and I want to see it"

man, that's the best joke I've read all day. thanks.

[theboss]

89. I fail to see the humor in this

If she has something, I think we have a right to see it. If she doesn't, she needs to stop pretending.

All this talk of "criminal investigations" is the sort of stuff you here on Pro Wrestling shows to cover up holes in a storyline.

So far, the voting fraud story has produced nothing more than theories. She claims to have something tangible. Let's see it.

[Ducks In A Row]

101. Sorry, you just don't have the right to demand anything.

Doing so just playing into the hands of the people scared shitless that Bev is exposing the fraud.

Remember Rather. He showed his card and now he's "retiring".

[theboss]

110. So, she's going to wait until....when?

It's December. All this talk of lawsuits and criminal investigations is ridiculous. Those things take years. George P. Bush will be in the White House by then.

Now, if her goal is - as she says - just to reform the system; that's fine. Take the long road. I have no problem with that.

But if she has something serious and tangible related to this election, well, hustle up. Time's a'wastin'.

And if she's just blowing smoke, tell us.

[Ducks In A Row]

131. sure, it's just smoke. there's nothing to see.

there's no fraud. there is no evidence. bev isn't doing anything. we love bush. we never question the god almightly mainstream media. they always tell the truth.

gee, I feel so much better now.

[theboss]

133. Thanks for the condescension

First of all, are you guys in shifts? That Budda person leaves and you check in?

Secondly, I'm an attorney. I'm not in the business of smoke. I'm in the business of facts. And I've been waiting for a month for some fact to emerge to make me believe all this fraud talk. And so far, nothing.

I'm equally skeptical with everyone.

[Ducks In A Row]

35. It's an accusation because Keith is gossiping about Bev

it's not even second hand gossip.

Why don't you email Keith and ask why he hasn't bother to try and talk to Bev directly. Why leave it to staff?

It's worse than lazy reporting on his case.

AND, Countdown cancelled Bev when she refuses to censor herself, to not say the word fraud. And it's worse for Keith to blame Bev for refusing to be censored.

Bev has no trouble interviewing with independent media, like AAR and Pacifica, and DemocracyNow. They don't censor her.

Don't let MSM make the rules. It's a fool's game. If you don't play the game their way, they whine and bitch, telling the world there's something worse with you. When in reality the problem is MSM and the game they play.

Bev shouldn't have to play their game, and we shouldn't be pawns of MSM.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

72. Gossip?

(This is the last post I have time for today.)

What Olbermann is saying is that Bev Harris refuses to share her evidence. My understanding is that this is essentially true (even if -- as Harris claims -- the request was never made, she would have declined the request anyway). She does not wish to share her evidence at this time. I don't see Olbermann's statement as anything negative if you believe that Harris has a legitimate reason for not revealing her evidence right now. It's hardly "gossip" to accept the word of his own staff, especially when he is up front about the fact that he has not dealt with Harris directly.

And I don't consider it "lazy reporting" when an exec delegates scheduling duties to his staff.

And your other facts are not established. Harris claims she was canceled. Olbermann's description is more like "bumping" -- he just wanted to have her on another night. Who knows what's true? But there doesn't seem to be any disagreement regarding the fact that Harris is unwilling to share her evidence now, whether or not you think her reasons are legitimate.

If Olbermann gives Harris an ultimatum that he will only have her on his show if she is willing to share her evidence, that's really his decision, isn't it? You may disagree with it, but to say we shouldn't have to play by "MSM's rules" doesn't really accomplish anything. Is anyone else even offering that much? Beggars can't be choosers.

[Ducks In A Row]

104. yes, gossip. the kind design to trivilize Bev and what she's doing

and that's the game MSM plays.

Good for Bev for not playing into it.

[Ducks In A Row]

119. another thing about the word "Gossip"

I use the word gossip 1) because that's what it is, but 2) what he did on his blog really loses any powers if you imagine a couple of crackling biddies standing across a fence, whispering lies and rumors to each other.

:)

[saracat]

116. We are all the pawns of MSM. If we don't use those rules they

don't cover you. If they don't cover you. you don't exist.You have to know how to use them. Madonna knows how to use them.Bev doesn't . Sorry I couldn't resist the Madonna reference because she is a master of PR. Maybe Bev could get her?

[Ducks In A Row]

132. and if they don't cover you, they won't see the hammer when

it's brought down on their heads.

Playing their game is useless. Ask Madonna because they turn on her fairly regularly.

[AmyCrat]

7. In response to loritooker's e-mail response from Keith

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104119&mesg_id=104651&page=
loritooker said:

Picking up on an e mail exchange I had with him last night he said this morning,

"Here's the grief I'm getting: Ms. Harris has basically spammed by offices today with threatening calls and messages.

"...another faux pas like that (the Cuyahoga and Florida Dixiecrat anaylses proving meaningless) would relegate the story to the supermarket tabloids"

- - - - -

and that's yet another part of the problem. At least if the public statement on the BBV website didn't coincide with threats and demands, it would just be speculation. Unfortunately, right now, BBV's error is judgement aired for all to see hasn't helped matters.

[saracat]

9. This is what I mean about bad PR!

[Snivi Yllom]

13. BBV originally responded to KO with aggressive language

No wonder Keith might think less of her.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690#2777779


Additionally, she went back and changed her statement.

[loritooker]

19. Yes I agree it is very troubling

Keith seems very exasperated and its my feeling that he is saying he is not going to air anything unless he feels really solid about it. Last night part of his e mail to me stated:

I'm not convinced she's on the level; I'm wiilling to be convinced otherwise"

Now this morning he informs me that she's started spamming him. This is not professional behavior in my opinion. And her chances of getting invited to his show again seem to be fading, wouldn't you think?

I want to believe she is doing good stuff--but we aren't hearing much except her statements on BBV that directly contradict those of KO.

[americanstranger]

22. Sadly typical. n/t

-as

[tbuddha]

31. I talked to Bev....and if she left any messages today

They were to tell him to retract his statement that she refused to go on and that they "disrupted" that election official meeting.

[Ducks In A Row]

36. Keith needs to apologize on air tonight

[Kelvin Mace]

48. He does not say she "disrupted an election meeting"

He says:

My ample gut has lately sent me a different message, and her showdown with Palm Beach County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore on Monday seemed to buttress my instinct. She burst into LePore’s retirement ceremony, her cameraman rolling tape as she did so, and she raced to the podium to announce to the shocked room full of supervisors that she was “serving” LePore with papers as part of her lawsuits over what she claims are LePore’s evasions in providing records of the 2004 vote.

Please, show me where he said she "disrupted" that election official meeting."

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Snivi Yllom]

52. clearly she did disrupt an event she was not invited to

Am I wrong about that?

BBV's description of crashing LaPore's event soundss more like trespassing.

[Ducks In A Row]

107. a public meeting being misused for a "party"

and process servers are rarely welcomed! :)

[regularjoe]

118. Hakuna Matata

What a wonderful phrase!

[AmyCrat]

53. the tone was quite... uh... wrong

when he's supposed to be someone on your side, and who can decide whether you get some prime-time MSM coverage or not.

You also forgot her "threat" (not the right word, but not sure what else to call it) to make him part of the subject of fraud: "Also contrary to Olbermann's claims, Harris is not making a documentary, but the makers of the Votergate documentary, an independent team who captured the Volusia County trash incident on film, are eager to interview Keith Olbermann on camera to ask him why he produced this report."

Don't mischaracterize it. Her initial website annoucement DEMANDED a restraction. They toned it down a bit later in the day, but not much.

[soup]

56. Are you saying they didn't disrupt the meeting? n/t

[Ducks In A Row]

115. she's saying it, read it at blackboxvoting.org

[Pepper32]

92. Oh Damn, STOP adding to the damage...

Even if Keith O is in the wrong (I don't know if he is or not, none of us do) Bev needs to stop adding fuel to this fire, with her abrasive reaction - even if it's justified. Geez... Keith O is the one with the mainstream media voice (on this issue) and he can reach many people quickly, including repukes. They are going to love this! Especially now that the election fraud is getting media play elsewhere.

I am not looking forward to Countdown tonight. If you think he nailed her to the wall yesterday, we probably haven't seen anything yet. We need to calm this situation NOW.

I'm not saying either one of them is wrong or right. The only side I am on is DU and our movement. And this situation is bad and presents a huge problem for our cause. Especially, if BBV is painted as the foundation of our movement.

hmmm... all of this boils down to mass confusion, which means ROVE is swinging his bat in the background and hitting home-runs. And, here I thought they were being arrogant and not really worrying about this situation. They are dismantling our movement one branch at a time. We need to fix this ASAP.

[crispini]

8. To loritooker from the other thread

You said KO emailed you... just curious, do you know him?
And if not, sheesh, what do you put in your emails to get him to write back? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

[loritooker]

26. I was a real asshole to him

I am ashamed to say. I think he's a really decent fellow and I apologized to him for my rudeness. PLEASE don't take that as advice. I don't know what I said, maybe he was just in a bad mood and I was the last straw. Also, after he flamed me I wrote back with my apology and a few questions, so he responded again this AM.

[crispini]

37. Damn.

Nah, I guess I won't do that. Oh well, I was hoping you would give me the secret code or something. :D

Maybe next time I'll ask him a question rather than simply sending "support -- pat on the back" type thing. Or maybe I should stop offering to bear his children. :evilgrin: Ya think?

(kidding, kidding)

[loritooker]

57. Yes, I think maybe Keith likes to answer a good question

And I'm too old to bear children so I couldn't have offered that! Maybe he just likes talking with crusty old dames.

[loritooker]

65. Keith just e mailed me about Bev

He said, and I'm paraphrasing, that Bev Harris was so abusive just now to his Executive Producer that she (his E.P.) had to discontinue the conversation. I don't know if it was a phone conversation or a face-to-face conversation or what. He didn't specify.

He also said he'd be blogging on this sometime tonight.

[Snivi Yllom]

75. amateur night

unprofessional

It sounds like KO is finished with her.

[smartvoter]

79. Yes. And this jives with what the person who called her said.

[loritooker]

90. I think KO is finished with her, too

I really think he doesn't want to hurt this story. And I think he became convinced that Bev would be a detriment to it. He didn't say that to me specifically, but he was suspicious of her in the beginning and yes, I think its over. Just my feeling.

I hope she can gather good evidence to proceed. She's not out to overthrow this election. I hope she's out to reform the system.

[americanstranger]

105. I wouldn't blame him a bit.

You'd think that we'd be trying to cultivate relationships with the media, not burning them down.

-as

[saracat]

82. This is what I was talking about folks ! There is something not right

with how they present themselves.I'll say it again. Bad PR. I wrote to Keith and thanked him for keeping us credible and told him to pay no attention to all this nonsense and sent him the great new article inThe North Country News that has everything that has happened thus far with the fraud issue. It is posted on DU.

[loritooker]

94. Yup. Bad PR.

[Ducks In A Row]

98. why doesn't HE talk to Bev?

Sorry, but he is playing a game, and it disrespect Bev and the people working with her.

[theboss]

103. Because he's the host of the show

Do you think any tv host contacts the guests personally? That's why they have producers and bookers.

If she's waiting for an engraved invitation from the host, she's crazy.

[Ducks In A Row]

136. Well there you have it. Keith is too important to get to the truth

Bev is obviously nothing to him. That's why he gossips about her.

[americanstranger]

117. It's not his job to do talk to her.

The producers and bookers do that.

Anyone who has been on a TV or radio show can tell you that. Anyone who goes on Randi's show doesn't talk to Randi - they talk to Tim.

I went on Scarborough for TBTM. I spoke to his producer. Symbolman appeared on behalf of TBTM on O'Reilly, and a couple of times on CNN. He talked to their producers.

Seeing a pattern here?

-as

[momzno1]

55. Keith responded to one of my emails too

I sent him one with a lot of links about lockdowns, and odd occurences around polling places and elections offices. His response:

KO: You'll notice I mentioned the Tallahassee stuff.

I was not saying that isn't the way I'd do it if I wanted to tamper with machines -- I'm just saying Mr. Madsen didn't come close to passing the smell test. His latest piece claims there is a $29M check -- ONE CHECK -- that covered the whole expenses for the "fix." Nobody with $29M is dumb enough to do that for ANYTHING!

[crispini]

76. Damn! All ya'll are hearing from Keith and I'm not!

:cry:

Ok, notes to self: 1) offer interesting tidbits of information. 2) ask intelligent question. 3) avoid inappropriate fangirlness.

Will have to think about this. #3 will be hard. :evilgrin:

[Patsy Stone]

120. He responded to me too, the other day -- not about this.

I was fan girlish, among my intelligent questions and note of thanks.

[jamboi]

10. My take is that the aim of BBV is not immediate gratification re: this

election. I think we just have to accept that BBV is focused on a long-term fraud investigation, not on over-turning the result of 2004 in the short term. We can't look to any one figure and pin all our hopes on them, whether its BH or KO. We have to keep sticking up for ourselves, keep investigating, keep e-mailing, keep supporting the Washington recount (go to MoveOn task thread to see where to donate for today's deadling), and ultimately probably most importantly do marches in the streets. We are our own leaders. Don't stop to fight over this or that person and their mistakes. Keep going, keep flowing. We're gaining momentum. Let's go!

[trumad]

17. Here's the solution

Bev ought to fly into New York, visit Keith privately, and show him the tape.

[Jersey Devil]

21. Keith is in reality in Secaucus NJ

which doesn't really look anything like NY. It's in the Great Swamp called the Meadowlands near Giants Stadium.

It's a great place to meet though and was the scene for the execution of one of the mob guys in the Godfather when someone said, "Drop the gun. Keep the cannolis."

[theboss]

23. That would be Clemenza

"Paulie? Oh you won't be seein' him no more."

[Patsy Stone]

126. And you too.

"Huh! Paulie...won't see him no more!"

[Patsy Stone]

125. If you're gonna do it, do it right!

"Leave the gun...Take the Cannolli"

:)

[ohio_liberal]

130. A Godfather purist

:) :hi:

[KoKo]

33. Agree! Instead of squabbling over "he said/she said" Donate if you can

to Recount Efforts. We are all tapped out and the holidays are here, but a few dollars here and there add up to big ones.

Just as "a few stolen votes" here and there and everywhere "selected" Chimp once again.

Stop the squabbling...Bev and Keith aren't our only hope...there are dozens of groups working on exposing the fraud. We've got momentum...lets energize. This BBV/KO stuff is draining and does nothing to move anything forward. :-(

[Paradise]

11. Have known KO to be quite intelligent, perceptive, and his own man,

and Bev Harris is an American hero!

Once and for all, can someone please explain what the h*ll is going on??? :shrug:

[crispini]

20. Read the two links in Skinner's original post in this thread.

That's basically it.

[Paradise]

42. Thanks crispini. Now why didn't I notice those.

I'm getting goofy :silly:

[Must_B_Free]

25. In his blog, KO expressed distrust of Bev Harris

that's what started this hubub.

Apparently she was invited on the show then bumped.

In fairness to KO, she was not "cancelled" which means "with no intention of rescheduling", she was bumped.

The he says why doesn't she bring the video of the dumpster score and come on the show.

He had a lame excuse for the bump which was that he wanted to have "more mainstream" guests on, regarding BBV, before Bev.

He called her stunt where she served Theresa Lepore the lawsuit papers anthetical to the cause.

Anyway, my opinions are:
1. The hand that feeds KO is GE, who maked boodles off the war.

2. Another article I quoted last night calls Bev a "Media Darling" - certainly she is as mainstream as it gets, in regards to BBV. She found the Gems software and alerted everyone.

3. It is said that she was a day late in filing a FLA lawsuit - was this due to going to KO's set and then getting bumped?

4. Bev is a strong woman and may feel like Fool me once, shame on you, fool me again, shame on me. She doesn;t have all the time in the world to wait around TV sets.

5. KO has some causes to be slightly skeptical of Bev, but this may also have been contributed by the propaganda campaign against her credibility.

[crispini]

41. Oh, you forgot to add something.

Bev Harris has a history (some people say) of acting, shall we say, not in the politest manner possible. This has resulted in certain a loss of credibility in some people's eyes.

Edited for clarification

[Paradise]

54. IMO, and perhaps yours as well, we're way past "polite"! n/t

[Paradise]

49. Thanks MBF! This doesn't bode well for KO, with me at least! n/t

[crispini]

66. Well, Bev has threatened to sue DU twice.

So that doesn't bode well for her with me at least.

[Ducks In A Row]

124. She is protecting her not-for-profit organization as is her right

if she lets any misuse, even by a "friendly" go by, you know some freepers will complain and that's the end of her not-for-profit status.

It's not wrong for her to be diligent.

[high density]

84. Olbermann may ultimately be paid by GE...

but you need to remember that this is a man who refused to keep harping on the Lewinsky bullshit. I do not see him being part of a "propaganda campaign" against Bev Harris. Given some of the comments he has made in interviews and a commencement address at Cornell, I tend to think he's a genuinely honest man that is not owned by GE.

I do not know what Bev Harris is doing or what the true story is here, but I don't think Keith Olbermann would lie to us just to tarnish whatever credibility she has.

[Ducks In A Row]

88. She was cancelled because she would not be censored

She was going to use the word fraud and the "staff" wouldn't let her. IT happened twice. And to lie about it, as keith is doing (or as his staff is letting him) is the act of a bullshit artist.

Bev was on Randi Rhodes and told what happened.


And remember, at this time, even tho Keith was poo-pooing the idea of a media lockdown, he never used the word fraud until this week.

Keith has never spoken with Bev. It's all secondhand info he's going on, and in the case of Bev it's wrong for him to do this

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HereSince1628]

14. Could someone link this to thread #1?

thanks.

[saracat]

15. And to Budda or whatevr your name is.

You are proving my point about not knowing anything about TV .A producer is not what most think. It isn't like a movie or theatrical producer.A TV producer is almost the bottom link on the chain and couldn't "stonewall" anyone.

[tbuddha]

39. the producer works for Keith

and she didn't tell him the truth. She said Bev refused to go on when is reality she never talked to Bev. Neither has Keith. Last time I talked to Bev she thought it was gonna get worked out with Keith to come on the show.

[saracat]

109. Whatever, but in a case such as this the media is always right! They have

the power!

[Ducks In A Row]

127. only the power we give them.

and in this case it's nothing, because it will not stop Bev from building her case and bringing it to court.

[Wordie]

16. Thank you, Skinner. n/t

[spotbird]

18. Sorry if this is redundant

but why hasn't Bev released the original tapes (or copies) and the tallies represented in them?

I've been bothered by this all along, I've even started some threads on the topic but I've never heard the answer.

It may be buried in the hundreds of threads going on now about the topic, but if there is a short answer please share it with me.

[F.Gordon]

32. Because their is no evidence

Repost from locked thread:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll just focus on Precinct 215 since the other "fraud" precinct numbers aren't being given out. However, if they were then I could address each of them individually.

On election night the data for 215 wasn't uploaded via the modem because a message came up that the poll workers weren't familar with. The memory card was taken to the election offices and they tried to run it through a different machine. The same message came up, hence the screenshot. However, since it's not being disclosed specifically what was on the screenshot that they found in the trash, I can't be certain that they are the same screenshot. But, I suspect they are. If it would be confirmed exactly what the screenshot said, then we could clear up this part of the "fraud evidence".

So, they started over and did a recount of precinct 215 feeding all the ballots into a new machine. Two days later it was discovered that only 1/2 of the ballots bags had been recounted. A simple human error that was discovered quickly. No "black box" fraud. Hence, the number difference from the 11/2 data and the 11/15 data. Hence, the time log differences and all the other "evidence" of fraud. Hence, all the stuff being found in the trash. Oh, and the memory card message was finally resolved.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Bev has refused the opportunity to do a recount to resolve the issue. Why is that? Isn't the objective here to find the truth?

[spotbird]

43. Where did the text of your comment originate?

It's a little confusing, but I think I'm following.


Also, why didn't the county release all this themselves? They are at least partly culpable knowing the sensitivity of the issue.

[F.Gordon]

74. I wrote the text, it is a summary of the info I have

It was a response to why CNN didn't air the information on the tapes after they were apparently shown to them. The point also being that CNN probably got the same information that I did.

EVERYONE who I have communicated with in the County and the State of Florida has been very cooperative. I've only included the info on 215 here, but if Bev would like to include some more "evidence" I'd be happy to address it.

Why hasn't the county released this information publicly? In a way, they already have. The problem is that the BBV activists aren't listening.

[spotbird]

122. In what way have they released all this information?

It wouldn't be hard to create a press release which covers the whole issue in detail, as public servants it is their responsibility to be as open an honest in an area of grave public concern.

This does not absolve or explain Bev's secrecy either, but she isn't a public servant therefore does not have the power to shed light on the whole picture. As a private citizen she can remain silent, IMO that's a mistake since her credibility comes into question, but it is certainly her prerogative.

Would you please provide a link to the earlier posts?

[SueZhope]

24. pardon me if I am in the wrong place

I got lost
Were is dave who posted the note in the
"Discuss Keith Olbermann and Bev Harris in this thread 1

For dave:
Thanks for sharing your experience.
It seems what you are saying is Bev
is in the front line and you and others have
been behind the scenes doing alot of the grunt work
and not getting credit. (Im still lost about the law suit)

My question to you is this: What do you feel about what Bev
has shared with tbuddha , that "she has another lead that she thought COULD tip the election" In your own view could this actually be a possibility or do you feel we are being lead on?

[Jersey Devil]

27. The argument presented by BBV, as I understand it

is that producing the tapes would tip off voting officials of what specific areas they had proof of fixing in so that they could physically alter ballots to match the phony tapes after the fact.

The problem I have with this argument is that if they were going to physically alter ballots (or computers), wouldn't they do that anyway to cover their tracks?

[SueZhope]

29. Jersey devil thanks

What I am referring to is something else that Bev said on the phone
about another big lead that could TIP the election
not the tapes from FL

This thread was locked it is called
SOME BAD NEWS AND SOME GOOD NEWS
this one:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104375&mesg_id=104375

[Jersey Devil]

40. He never said what that was, only that it involved Fla

and frankly I have no idea if that poster really speaks for BBV or is just someone here to stir the pot. Bev Harris posted here earlier today on the GD board. So why would she have someone no one ever heard of before come here to be her spokesman?

[tbuddha]

46. She doesn't have the time I do...

though I have wasted way too much of the day on this. I DID enjoy talking with her this morning and quite frankly, was shocked to get ahold of her. I gave you my number, you won't call. How about this, if you call me, and I think you are credible, I will give you Bev's number.

[SueZhope]

50. Do you have her post?

On the GD board?

I had no idea she posted today
It would be great to read that

Thanks..Do you know Bev?
Im keeping an open mind about all of this

[Jersey Devil]

68. Sure thing - Here's a link to the string with several Bev posts from today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690

[Snivi Yllom]

70. Bev Harris posted several times on this thread today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2777690

[Ducks In A Row]

112. I liked this one

"Thanks for playing, and we are delighted to know we are getting close to something sensitive. (harassment calls and bogus news stuff suddenly ramped up during the last 24 hours).
"

Oh Bev, don't forget freepers trolling at DU, screaming for evidence they're sure you don't have. :)

And Keith gossiping about you on MSM!

[Razorback_Democrat]

63. I've certainly wondered that too!

After reading Bev's posts on the general discussion board i came to this board and was surprised to find she had a spokesman on here, or someone who claimed to be.

[Kelvin Mace]

64. If she has a lead,

she needs to start sharing it with the DA/FBI/Media/ Blogsphere or SOME resp
Until then...

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Ducks In A Row]

114. No, she doesn't have to share. She has to build her case

and all the gossiping over the fence by keith olbermann doesn't change that.

[saracat]

34. Is anyone here as outraged as I am at post 88 on the thread #1

stating the Bev doesn't need Keith? But Keith Needs Bev? This poster implies he knows Bev. I asked whether he spoke for her because if that is the attitude, the whole project is in jepordy! Last I looked Bev doesn't have a show on any network to be so uppity. I hope this isn't her take on all this.

[Ducks In A Row]

45. Keith does need Bev. It's all about playing a media game right now...

for him.

He throws out bullshit about Bev on air, and if she doesn't bite, doesn't come grovelling to him, then it means he doesn't have the power to make the rules.

He needs her because she has all the cards. And it's because he was stupid, letting the staff fuck with getting the interview.

Bev was on Randi Rhodes, so we know the truth about it. They'd schedule, then ask if she was going to say fraud, she'd confirm, and they'd cancel. They did this twice.

Bev has interviewed on independent media, and isn't censored. Why should she play a fool's game with the MSM.

Isn't because her "game" isn't about money or power. It's ALL about getting the fraud exposed


We do not need the MSM. They need us, and they are starting to realize it. The only outrage should be to anyone trying to tell Bev she needs the MSM.

[SueZhope]

62. Ducks In A Row

Just wondering
Do you know Bev personally?

[AmyCrat]

93. you got is backwards

A MSM journalist in prime-time certainly doesn't need Bev. He's been doing fine on the coverage without her for nearly a month.

If Bev wants the BBV message to get out, she needs the MSM. That's reality.

[Ducks In A Row]

128. if keith didn't need her, he wouldn't be talking about her.

[Ducks In A Row]

96. Whether I do or not is besides the point.

Look at what Bev's done. In California she exposed Diebold, had it brought to court, had them fined and exposed for the fraud they are.

And then, when the powers-that-be told her that taking the whistleblower money would also stop anymore investigation into Diebold, she did the right thing.

Turned down the money, and will be going into further discovery on Diebold.

Not the act of someone just in it for the money (as some have said).


In Florida right now, and in the past, sweating blood to expose fraud, finding and saving evidence.

I trust her, the work she's done in the past, now and in the future.

I do not trust mainstream media, including Keith. He does NOT have the track record of Bev Harris.

Besides, what's he's done in his blog is wrong. Esp since he's never spoken with her. Let him do the hard work she's doing and then report honestly. Leaving to some staff member doesn't show respect to Bev, Andy or their work.

And for some people on DU to bash Bev, well it's worse than wrong.

[AmyCrat]

135. You obviously haven't listened to anything I've said

Didn't criticize her work at all. It's her methods (sometimes) that are miscalculated. Pissing off the MSM is one of them.

[dweller]

102. Well Said Ducks

I wonder if anyone remembers Watergate, and the slow painstaking effort to get any media to accept that story.

I don't trust the MSM any longer, and BBV needs to be in control of what they have and when and to whom it is released.

peace,
dp

[Ducks In A Row]

106. fortuntely there weren't 24 hour "news" networks then

god, can you imagine what would have happened to those two reporters.

. ::Shudder::

[madbelgiancow]

38. looking at this from very very far away

this looks like a quarrel between family members over money.

But I guess it's also about respect.



How difficult to judge on these matters when looking through virtual reality glasses.

So I will not judge.


Peace

[WHAT]

47. We Want The Truth...

the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WHY?...

is the media lying ('scuse me...editing)? facts into irrelevancy? Whatever happened to facts? Facts don't need to be "vetted" by a frivilous media.

Something is going-on. It ain't pretty.

I want to know the truth via evidence which is all that Bev is gathering. What is wrong with gathering evidence and presenting it up for scrutiny. I want scrutiny of facts, not scrutiny of position...the one should follow the other...a position shouldn't imply the facts.

Something is terribly wrong with the media, intentionaly wrong.

WHY?...

:hi:

[SueZhope]

58. the media

is not serving people they
are serving themselves
they are all about the $$$$

I agree facts would be great
but we get spin....

[Kelvin Mace]

67. In defence of those memebers of the media I know

They take their job very seriousl and no one is "silencing" them.

But without PROOF, there is NO story.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AmyCrat]

71. not sure about that

while I agree with you somewhat, explain the Peterson case. There was lots of circumstancial proof, but no real HARD proof -- yet there was lots of story.

I think there's some truth in what you say, but I also know that news has become about ratings. If they don't think people will watch, producers don't put it on.

KO's recent ratings boost could actually HELP the cause for that point alone.

[SueZhope]

80. I agree Amycat

there might be some MSM that actually does there job
but from what i watch on cable its hard to find
fair & balanced news (I am talking on the TV)

they spend hours on BS and spin
They sit around and talk about thinks
that they have no proof on.

Look out the hours & hours on the Swift Boat liars
They had no proof at all it was all about discrediting
Mr kerry..they had no problem having those guys on
how does that serve the people?

They should be talking more about the voting system
and who counts the votes ......even without proof
the system itself is a JOKE the way it is set up

[saracat]

91. Right on Amycat! As a member of the media, I do interviews

on a local TV show on politics, You are dead on. I don't know why so many think that Bev is a household name and would attract attention. The statement about Keith needing her settled it for me. She need him to make her a household name so the issue can get out!

[Kelvin Mace]

113. Let's not get sidetracked into a completely different issue

like Peterson.

As I said, I can only speak for those members of the media I know personally.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AmyCrat]

59. in reply to SueZHope from thread #1

SueZHope said:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=104119&mesg_id=104603&page=
what seems odd to me is that I have noticed a pattern Bev often seems to have important things that could turn over the election then it turns into nothing that important. Is any one else noticing this pattern?

Not that she should be telling any one on the phone but she needs to be telling the kerry lawyers

- - - - -

yes... I've noticed and I somehow manage to hold out hope that one of her "BIG NEWS COMING SOON" announcements will amount to more than another "BIG NEWS COMING SOON" announcement.

I believe in what BBV is doing, just not always with how they do it.

[Walt Starr]

77. BIG NEWS has been COMING SOON

since this whole BBV thing started.

:eyes:

[Snivi Yllom]

85. Christmas is coming too...oh it really is

never mind, it has more effect when you say that in January
LOL

[AmyCrat]

87. How bout 4th of July? LOL n/t

[high density]

97. I've noticed that

I've also seen an overuse of the word "BREAKING" -- I mean everything is breaking at some point, but after an hour or two the news is no longer breaking news. It's so overhyped. Most of the stuff should be titled "very minor update" or "a little more info." There are lots of vague things going on over at the BBV website, and while I understand they can't lay their whole case out on the table of obvious reasons, I'm sure the people who have given them a bit of money would appreciate a clear update as to SOMETHING that is going on. Bickering with the only news guy on TV who gives a crap isn't going to help BBV's cause. Even if Olbermann or his producers DID fail to get in touch with Bev, she should call him up and set the story straight. Bev Harris seems to be playing hard to get for some reason and I do not believe that Olbermann would be making this stuff up.

[indigo11153]

60. One post

I am going to jump in here. Wanted to earlier but every time I start to post the thread gets locked. I want to thank all the folks that have dared to take on the cult of Bev. Good for you. I am an old DUer and I have kept up with Bev's "work" and I have long noticed that she is not a straight shooter. If she was really interested in reform she would accept help from many that have offered it. I do notice that she aways has a lame excuse for this. I seems clear that it is all about her.

I understand why people are speaking out against her. She is hurting our movement in many ways and all the threads about her latest are a big waste of time. Real efforts are going forward and I do think she is a distraction from those.

Now that I said this I am done with it. I am not going to feed her ego by talking about her. She loves that. If she does something good. Good for her. Good for us. They say even a blind pig can find an acorn now and then but I am not going to spend my time or money on her.

Still, I do agree that the truth does need to be out on her and I do thank those brave few for trying to stop folks from drinking her koolade. You do have guts and I believe good intentions. I remember what happened when Bart questioned her. Boy did he take a beating. LOL anyway, Just wanted you good Duers to know you are not alone.

[gorbal]

61. Okay Here a present...

Maybe a funny I just made will cheer you guys up.

http://gorbal_vats.blogspot.com/

It's a work in progress, only half of the text is done, LOL! I'll give it it's onlw thread somewhere when it is finished:)

[FormerOstrich]

69. Thank you Skinner for limiting the threads

I just spent more time than I have to respond on the first thread, only to have lost it all because it was locked by the time I posted. I will try to quickly recreate.

I have tried to remain silent through all this. However, I can't any longer. There seems to be so much confusion. Here are what I see to be the issues:

Video Tapes vs Ballot Tapes – It seems that the generic term "tapes" is used frequently but it is rarely qualified of which is being spoken of.

BBV Video and Votergate Video -- It seems that there is a lot of confusion surrounding that there are Videos which have been created by both entities. Furthermore, it is not clear which footage belongs to whom. I have to wonder if MSNBC was/are aware there were two different entities.

Evidence of Voter Fraud -- It is not clear that if there is true evidence of voter fraud, the scope of the alleged fraud, any actions taken (i.e. civil/criminal), and current status.

CNN vs MSNBC -- It is not clear what was shown to CNN that they opted not to use on the air. Furthermore, it is not clear if this is the same information sought by MSNBC. It is not clear what the relevance of any of the information is to any claims of fraud or anything else.

In spite of all of the confusion, there is something that seems very clear to me which is:

I believe as a public admirer of Bev, as a contributor of BBV, and as a witness to literally hundreds of volunteers of resource, there is no excuse that BBV has for such disorganization a MSM producer could not contact them nor even leave a voicemail. Furthermore, I believe any BBV spokesperson should be publicly identified as such. Currently those claiming to be BBV spokespeople are only adding to the confusion and, frankly, do not present a good image for the organization.

I have never given MSNBC a financial contribution. However, I have given BBV financial contributions in the past and will continue to do so as long as they are working towards their stated goals. However, I find it difficult to believe that BBV can continue to be effective if they cannot overcome these communication problems. BBV does not "owe" us anything for past contributions. However, if they wish for continued support they should make an effort to keep us informed as if we were stakeholders.

I can't help but conclude the onerous is on BBV to clarify the issues and to achieve a productive relationship with MSM regardless of what has occurred thus far.

[loritooker]

73. See reply #65--Keith just e mailed me about Bev--I replied wrong

I apologize-- I'm new at this, as you can see.

[Fiendish Thingy]

78. Some people say "you can't handle the truth!"

And some people say we should all stop doing Karl Rove's work smearing two of the best messengers we have, so that BOTH of their messages can get through.

Some people recommend watching Kurosowa's "Rashomon" for an excellent primer on how many people can experience one truth so differently.

Some people would say be patient, let Bev and KO work this out like grown ups (either they will or they won't)and let the Crime of the Millennium continue its slow, steady, emergence into the collective consciousness.

I wonder what some people would say about this?

[bain_sidhe]

81. Lets not get lost in "lets you and him fight"

It's a game the republiKKKans play very well.

Bev has her deal. I'm convinced that she's doing good work, out of good motives. She also has a book for sale, and may or may not have a financial interest in the votergate tapes, but that isn't the issue. The issue is whether she's advancing the cause of fair and verifiable voting. I think she is.

Keith has his deal. I'm convinced that he's doing good work, out of good motives. He has a financial interest in the success of his show, and in maintaining his credibility as a newsperson. And, again, his "financial interest" isn't the issue. WE have an interest in maintaining his credibility as a newsperson, too - he's the only *credible* MSM source covering the story with any consistency, after all. So, if he feels having Bev on might damage that credibility, then of course, he shouldn't.

Any energy we spend fighting about whether Keith or Bev are "right" is energy we're NOT spending where it matters - investigating the vote and exposing the fraud. And that only serves the interests of those who want this whole issue to die.

Again, both Keith and Bev are doing good work, out of good motives. They are not doing the SAME work, but that's no reason for those of us who share their goal to keep the issue of voting fraud alive to choose up sides and go at EACH OTHER.

Eyes on the prize, guys.

[regularjoe]

86. Cue Lion King music

"And Caaaaannn you feeeeeel the loooooove tonight?
It is wheeeeeere weeeee aaaaaaare
It's enough for this wiiiiide-eyeeeeed wandererrrrr
That weeeee got thiiiis faaaaar."

Like the singing?

Seriously though, we need some conflict mediation/resolution. Bev is obviously not perfect. Keith is obviously not perfect. I think they would both like good to come of this. However you agree or disagree with their actions, and regardless of personality traits that annoy you or previous personal affronts, let's try to move on from this point and clear up misunderstandings. Can we forget the he said/ she said (even if you are right, even if someone lied) for the moment (which may be several weeks), for the good of the voting investigation movement? Anyone opposed raise your hand. Ok, good, looks like we agree. If you see anyone that asks "What is all this Bev/Keith stuff?" simply explain that we are moving on but if they would like to know what has happened they can read the threads and join us in seeking the common good.
:grouphug:

regularjoe

[AntiFascist]

95. My gut reaction tells me....

that "management" at MSNBC is jerking around Bev Harris. This is pushing just the right buttons to make her angry, and people don't always perform at their best when they're angry. Whatever her motivations in all of this, whatever her personality traits, and whatever her communication skills, I don't think we would be seriously discussing voter fraud if it were not for her work. She has clearly demonstrated, beyond a shadow of doubt in my mind, how easy it is to corrupt the election through the various voting systems. Now it is up to the serious investigators, and investigative reporters, to prove that there was indeed voter fraud which has been indicated by the exit polls, and other evidence.

KO may be totally on our side, but he also has the "burden" of enjoying improving ratings and it may be much more in his best interest to maintain those improving ratings than it is to satisfy us. He is as likely to do what management tells him to do, just as it was in Dan Rather's best interest to step down.

[AmyCrat]

99. are you tired of hearing me say "play it smart" yet? hehehe

No matter how many buttons are pushed, you learn to take it, and fire back in the SMART way. You may or may not be right, it doesn't excuse the other side.

I also don't agree the Bev is the only reason we're here. There's LOTS of people who been doing work in this area, though I do give her full credit for the things she HAS done. Ultimately though, I think it's because of election 2000 we are here. I think we're here because we smell a rat.

[AntiFascist]

111. I also notice that....

blackboxvoting.org is continuing to ask for donations. Can you imagine how much money would be flowing into this effort if it were on the Republican side? Time is of the essence, as far as 2004 is concerned. I hope something comes of the lawsuits, but it looks like we may see a repeat of these problems in 2006 and perhaps even 2008, unless something happens soon.

[americanstranger]

134. Oh, they're making money, all right.

Since Randi Rhodes decided to throw in and solicit donations for them on her show.

Interesting point - when Randi had Bev on the air, she asked Bev how much money had been collected. Bev side-stepped the question straight from the woman who was responsible for the donations.

Why is that?

-as

[saracat]

100. PLEASE HELP THIS REPORTER

who is a credible investigator of voter fraud. The North Country News Is the only paper that has had the guts to tackle the whole story. The White House has even noticed what they are doing. Stop arguing about Bev and help this guy out! His name is Adam Stone . His email is Adam Stone

thanks for the kudos...

Possible follow ups: I'm working on

DNC talks.

Mainstream media silence.

Thoughts from local Congresswomen, Sue Kelly and Nita Lowey. Schumer and
Hillary, too, perhaps.

Anything you or others can do to help would be appreciated.

Please forward me the latest items from mainsream media on the topic. Not
opinion, just news items

An item below that might be of interest.

Adam

914 962 4748 x280

Robert Mueller, Director
Federal Bureau of Investigation
c/o White Plains Office
222 Bloomingdale Road
White Plains, New York

Dear Director Mueller:

On behalf of myself and other concerned citizens of Westchester County,
New York, I implore the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to urgently
and intensively investigate evidence of widespread conspiracy to tamper with
votes and suppress voting in the 2004 Presidential election.

We request that the FBI immediately send additional agents to Ohio and
Florida, key electoral states where there are indications of gross tampering
and suppression.

In Ohio, for example, in 29 Cayuhoga County (Cleveland) precincts,
93,136 more votes were recorded than there are registered voters. In
addition to suspicious electronic vote counting, there were significant
problems in Ohio with the mechanics of voting, such as malfunctioning
machines and problems with poll log books.

It has been reported that J. Kenneth Blackwell, Ohio's chief election
official and the Ohio Bush-Cheney campaign chair, ensured there were ample
voting machines in Republican areas and a shortage of machines in
low-income and African-American areas, as well as areas expected to have a
high turnout of young voters. In spite of an increase in voter registration
in Ohio, fewer machines were said to have been provided than in 2000.

Werner Lange, a Youngstown pastor, said at hearings held November 13 by
the Ohio Election Protection Coalition that less than half of the usual
number of voting machines were available in one African-American community.
"This," he said, "caused an enormous bottleneck among voters who had to wait
a very, very long time to vote, many of them giving up in frustration and
leaving." He estimated that 7,000 votes were lost to Senator John Kerry in
Youngstown alone, due to insufficient voting machines.

Carol Shelton, presiding judge at a precinct in Columbus, said voting
machines were insufficient, that she called for more machines and was sent
one, "which did not make a dent in the line...This was a clear case of
voter
suppression by making voting an impossibility for anyone who had to go to
work or anyone who was stuck at home caring for children or the elderly
while another family member voted."

In Florida, initial counts showed 237,522 more votes cast for president
than there were people casting ballots. The state altered the vote count to
eliminate county discrepancies after independent researchers began to point
out contradictions. Keith Olbermann, reporting for MSNBC, found: "On the
same Florida Democratic ballots where Bush scored big, people supported
highly Democratic measures- such as raising the state minimum wage $1 above
the federal level. This indicates that only the presidential voting was
rigged."

In addition, an unknown number of Florida voters, particularly in
African-American communities, were effectively disenfranchised by long
waiting lines and faulty equipment. There is no reason for these
conditions to have existed in Florida after the experience of 2000 other
than because of official conspiracy to suppress the vote.

Discrepancies between exit polls and tallies from electronic voting
machines leaving no paper trails indicate the need for investigations in
Minnesota, New Mexico, Nevada, Wisconsin, Colorado, North Carolina, Iowa,
New Hampshire and Pennsylvania.

We request that the FBI interview, in addition to public officials,
employees of firms involved in electronic voting in the 2004, the most
prominent including: Diebold Election Systems; Election Systems and
Software; Science Applications International Corporation, Sequoia Voting
Systems; and VoteHere Inc.

And, we ask the FBI to determine whether national voting laws have been
violated and to what degree, if any, there was central direction of vote
tampering and vote suppression.

Sincerely,


Nick Mottern
-----


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.804 / Virus Database: 546 - Release Date: 11/30/2004




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[regularjoe]

108. Are you the reporter? Or are you asking for someone else?

And I'm a little unclear as to what you want us to provide? I'd love to help but I need more direction.

regularjoe

[saracat]

123. No. His name is Adam Stone .This is an email he wrote to me.

Read the email and if there is anything you know or can contribute to voter fraud or any of the issues he is going to tackle let him know. This is the North Country News. His phone number is the 914 echange in the email!

[AntiFascist]

121. From what I've heard from certain former NSA agents....

(Wayne Madsen) the FBI itself may need to be investigated.

[DTinAZ]

129. lots of noise...not much light

My take...

1. It sounds as if Olbermann's staff is guilty of misinforming him regarding communications with Bev.

2. Olbermann used unnecessarily negatively charged language in describing the recent LePore incident..."burst into"..."raced to the podium"..."screams at public officials"...is that actually what happened? Did he see a tape of the incident that backs up this colorful description?

3. Bev is frequently impossible to reach, but posts here at DU frequently...but oddly enough, she never posts in her own forums over at BBV...that's odd...

4. Anyone posting here that they've received email responses from KO shouldn't necessarily be believed...they are most likely making that up to make themselves look important. However, if KO did indeed claim that Bev has been "spamming him" today, that's at minimum a total misuse of the term "spamming"...one often made by ignorant people...and I don't think Keith is that ignorant.

DT

[Skinner]

137. Continue discussion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x105121