Statement on the Bev Harris situation

[EarlG]

Over the past two years Bev Harris has received a great deal of support from the members of Democratic Underground, in her research, publicity efforts, and fundraising. In return we have played host to an 18 month-long squabble between Ms. Harris and other verified voting activists, and have even been threatened with lawuits by Ms. Harris herself. Despite this, we have publicly remained mostly silent on the verified voting squabbles.

We believe verified voting is a topic of crucial importance, and have been uncomfortable taking sides on an issue which, frankly, we should all be on the same side of anyway. Therefore we have kept most of our correspondence with the various factions private and attempted to cool things down behind the scenes. Like all issues discussed at DU, we have tried to focus the discussion of verified voting on the topic at hand, and not on the personalities of the participants. However, in light of the recent troubles, we feel compelled to make a statement.

In 2003 Bev Harris, along with a few other verified voting activists, were banned from DU for engaging in personal squabbles on the message board after they were repeatedly instructed to stop. Around that time, Ms. Harris threatened us with a libel lawsuit, claiming that we could be held responsible for comments made by other message board members who doubted the credibility of her project. She never followed through on this threat and we never heard from her lawyers.

Ms. Harris was reinstated shortly afterwards, after agreeing to put an end to the problems that got her banned in the first place. Nonetheless, those problems periodically recurred after her reinstatement. A few weeks ago, Ms. Harris again used our website to threaten DU with lawsuits, in her postings, in private messages to other members, and in rude alerts she sent to the moderators.

We sent a message to Ms. Harris telling her to stop hassling our moderators and members, and informing her that if she had a legal concern, she needed to contact us directly. We also let her know that her continued participation on this message board was dependent upon her behavior. The legal threats stopped, but we received no response from either Ms. Harris or her lawyers.

This is our personal experience with Ms. Harris. We cannot confirm or deny the veracity of claims made by others, including many former colleagues, her former publisher, and Keith Olbermann. But we can confirm that the claims made by others about Ms. Harris are not inconsistent with our own experiences.

We have remained as patient as possible in our dealings with Ms. Harris because we believe that the topic of verified voting is a crucial one. We were prepared to sacrifice a certain amount of tranquility on the message board if verified voting was being discussed in a generally positive manner.

Ms. Harris's recent spat with Keith Olbermann has made positive discussion of verified voting increasingly difficult on DU. For over a year and a half, our members have been split into pro- and anti-Bev factions, and recent events have only exacerbated that division. Yet this morning Ms. Harris returned to DU and started posting as if nothing had happened, while making liberal use of the alert button to complain to the moderators about our enforcement of the message board rules. At this point our patience finally ran out.

The fact that the disruptions have continued, despite repeated warnings from the administrators, leaves us with no other option but to bar Bev Harris from posting on this website. We no longer believe that it is productive to allow her to use DU as a platform to promote herself while simultaneously trashing us, our moderators, and others who have been previously supportive of her cause.

We still remain firmly committed to promoting discussion of verified voting, and we wish Ms. Harris well in her efforts to shed light on this important issue. From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved.

-----------------

This thread will remain open until further notice. Again, we would like to remind everyone to take care to avoid personal attacks. Thank you for your continued cooperation.

[texpatriot2004]

1. 12/03/04 is there any new info about the Bev BBV issue ?

What's new with BH and KO today 12/03/04? Are they still in a pissing contest? Oops, I asked the question and then read the post above. I think DU did the right thing. I think they were very patient and ultimately had no choice. I think she did it to herself.

[Kelvin Mace]

10. No, that ended the same way

KO told her she was not welcome on his show. Bev dropped her threats on her site and tried to pretend none of it happened.

I expect we will see a lot more proxies for Bev in the future.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

edit: typo

[texpatriot2004]

19. Oh, that's what the post above was referring to...that she

replied as if nothing happened. Gee, that's too bad.

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crispini]

236. Please. Try reading the rest of the thread

before you comment.

[Kelvin Mace]

252. You really should get all the facts

before posting.

I am a apalled that Markos and the DU moderators sit in front of their computers, within reach of their coffie, within easy driving distance (at least) of their beds, and trash Bev, who is OUT THERE, ON A LIMB, RISKING the WRATH of the IRS to PUBLISH here and at KOS.

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as Kos is concerned, but you seem woefully misinformed about Bev's contribution to this effort.

MANY people risked their financial health and their liberty pursuing this cause. Are you aware of this? Can you name any other them?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[aquart]

485. That's exactly my problem with what's happened here.

Bev is the name out front.

Are there other people working on this? Quietly and with deep devotion to this cause? Yes.

But Bev is the name out front.

I've done a quick scan here. You're all right. Okay?

But the tactless showman, the Carrie Nation with the hatchet, is the name that goes in the history books. Were others working on prohibition? Yeah. But Carrie had the hatchet. DAMNED offensive, that hatchet. Woman had no tact and didn't know her place.

The name out front MUST take the extreme position. Why? Because no one reasons with the reasonable. Why not? They're so reasonable. Because you don't have to. Because a reasonable person can be talked out of anything. Look at Gore in 2000. Look at Bush. Bush was unreasonable and took office. Gore was reasonable and didn't.

The name out front must set the boundary and it needs to be far out. THEN the hard-working anonymous heroes step in and reason with the panicked other side. God, have NONE of you ever gone on strike?

The name out front HAS to be seen. HAS to upset people. HAS to cause uproar and ranting. Frothing at the mouth ranting. ONLY then will the other side begin to negotiate.

Hundreds, maybe thousands, won't get credit for the work they've done, but Bev and her irritating descent on LePore's undeserved party WILL be noted. It HAS been noted.

The FIRST obstruction to any change is the injunction to behave nicely. Don't rock the boat. Be polite. Don't upset people. Bev isn't behaving nicely.

From where I sit, that means she's doing her job.

The sad thing is that it's OUR mouths that are frothing, WE who are demanding she behave nicely. We're acting like the DLC. Like the RNC.

If we want this job done, we NEED her and her name out there, pissing people off. Bev is the target. Bev is, obviously, taking the hits.

She isn't harming the cause. The ones screaming "PLAY NICE!" are the ones who don't recognize that we NEED someone out there on the far edge.

I understand completely the Mods' position. The attack here the past few days was stunning and, I thought, well-orchestrated. It consumed the place. Bev is now out of DU.

My school history book had a cartoonist's illustration of wild-eyed Carrie Nation and her hatchet. I still remember it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

540. I must disagree with part of your statement.

The person out front should be the level headed one who doesn't engage in the kind of stunts that garner the type of publicity as has been mentioned. The front person is the reasoned voice that puts out the facts, calmly and with clarity. The need is for credibility. The firebrands should not be in the lead.

[aquart]

626. The firebrands carry the torch.

They light the way.

Samuel Adams, for instance. Marat.

The firebrands blaze the trail. They can't do that from the rear.

But, historically, their fate is almost always to be discarded and maligned by the movements they made possible.

Oh, lookee.

[RememberTheCoup]

630. most "firebrands" direct their fire at the opposition...

...not at those who are working for the same cause.

[aquart]

651. And you can point to specific examples in history?

You know for a fact that other trailblazers were too pure for petty infighting? <Give me a minute. I have to stop laughing.>

[RememberTheCoup]

657. just common sense

If you want to argue that the traits of successful trailblazers include a tendency to turn on the very people trying to help them, go right ahead. Perhaps YOU should be the one citing examples. And I would not characterize Bev's actions as mere "infighting" -- she's caused a lot of harm to a lot of people. Since you are not one of her victims, I guess it's easy to trivialize.

[Maddy McCall]

692. I'm a professional historian, and I can assure you that many...

leaders of grassroots efforts were not plagued with the types of mental illnesses that Ms. Harris has exhibited.

Firebrands who turn on their supporters assure their movements defeat. And I can name numerous of those.

[Higans]

694. Mr. Historian, do you think the elections will ever be credible?

i.e. Paper Ballots, independant auditing. or is our voice silenced for ever by the hackers?

[Maddy McCall]

696. I said that I am an historian, not a fortune teller.

My personal belief, as far as the future goes, is that Americans won't tolerate democracy being stolen from them by anyone.

I forsee paper opti-scan ballots, or at least paper receipts for computer voting. I prefer the former.

For the first half of the 19th century, the main argument among Americans was whether or not the founders had tried to steal true democracy from Americans through the implementation of the Constitution. So there is an historical precedent for what is going on now. We still have the constitution, but I doubt that unverifiable computer voting will be around in 20 years.

[T Town Jake]

746. Mr. "Higans," do you think you could be any more...

...obvious as a pinch-hitter for a fraud like Bev Harris?

[Sperk]

711. Historian or psychiatrist? Mental illness? I really do not know what to

beleive anymore....Every post I have ever seen of Bev's (including on her own site) sound extremely reasonable. I'm trying to keep an open mind because you and others have made comments about terrible confrontations with her although I don't know specifically what they were. You and others don't seem to be handling them very professionally either.

For example, I read many, many of your posts and I know HOW you feel about her, I read many a name calling posts but I still don't know what she did that turned you against her. The gist seems to be that she wants to have all the lime light. If so...why not let her...there are bigger issues here. Do you see what I'm saying? We all want the fraud issue brought forward and I think going against her PUBLICLY is very damanging.....the evilduers will use it against us in the end.

[T Town Jake]

744. Blah, blah, blah - bleh - blah, blah...

...yet still more predictable horseshit from the professional Bev Bots... :eyes:

[Sperk]

710. I agree 100% with you....we've been screaming for 4 years for the

Dems to STOP being so passive....so NICE!!!! I think Bev is doing a great job and the fact that Olberman would cut her off without ever talking directly to her, tells me the fix was in.

[T Town Jake]

739. Carrie Nation was a bug-eyed puritan fanatic...

...who helped spawn the silliest amendment to our Constitution ever. Prohibition was later, thankfully, repealed, thanks to liberals I steadfastly admire like FDR. If Carrie Nation were alive and out & about today, she'd be Jerry Falwell's biggest fan, and a regular poster over at Free Republic. Odd indeed is your choice of role models...

Despite that, the analogy still doesn't quite fit: Carrie Nation truly believed in the principles that animated her ridiculous crusade; your hero Bev, on the other hand, is little more than a crude charlatan and increasingly transparent con artist. She hurts the cause she presumes to speak for far more than she helps it. At least Ms. Nation had something to show for her efforts - the quixotic and now long-repealed 18th amendment. All Saint Beverly has is a lengthening trail of burned bridges, shattered relationships, and ugly encounters with just about everybody she comes into contact with. And zero credibility, as has been proven over and over and over and over again.

[Maddy McCall]

258. "The Baby?" Yes, I would agree that Bev's temperament has been...

quite immature.

But BBV is not Bev's baby. It belongs to all of the activists who began the BBV efforts, who contributed in vast ways to the BBV book, who funded her dubious trips around the U.S.

Just because "the baby" is gone does not mean that the bathwater has been drained. Perhaps MORE will get accomplished, now that the most divisive figure ever at DU is out of the way. The true activists in this movement will continue their efforts, of that I have no doubt.

Beware the charlatans.

Links from one of the many Bev controversies at DU:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1330558
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606666
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1993788

And there are links within links. Read them all and come back to discuss this. I'll be waiting.

[Ladyhawk]

437. The lawsuit threats did it for me. :(

No one should threaten to sue as a first recourse over something so trivial. It was freaking me out because I want to help with the possible election fraud issue, yet I felt uneasy about Ms. Harris.

Now that she's been banned, I feel better. I may be able to get myself in gear to help with this again.

[Stand and Fight]

268. Go to the archives...

Go to the DU archives, do the research, take in all the information, and then form your opinion before you attack the founders and moderators or other DU members. Nothing is worse than the unfounded, ill-formed, and hot-headed opinion. You'd do yourself great service by reviewing the roots of this thread. You'd do us all a great service by being fair and balanced in your replies to what is a very reasonable approach to a very volatile situation.

[jamboi]

67. "focus on discussing the verified voting issue" Amen! Principles over per

sonalities!

[texpatriot2004]

91. Hey, I have heard that saying before elsewhere, not here.

Look, I apologize if I offended you. I thought this thread was a continuation of the other. I made a mistake. I was just looking to find out what happened regarding this issue.

[AntiFascist]

161. I agree...

Bev has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that voting systems, including the extremely important Diebold central tabulators, can be easily hacked. Anyone who has seen the recent movie posted on the internet featuring her (Votergate the Movie) can see a demo of how this is done. (Basically it involves opening a GEMs database file into MS Access -- notice the MS, as in MSNBC?)

Anyway, I feel that Bev has pretty much accomplished the main part of her task, now it is up to others to continue the work of investigating the recent election to see how such corruption was put into action and how far it went in fixing the election results.

[Name removed]

631. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RememberTheCoup]

646. You obviously haven't read the background links.

You have it backwards. Bev is the one who has been doing the attacking -- attacking people who are "helping our side". But I suggest you read the background links in this thread first.

[genius]

683. From what I saw this week, it looked as if she was under major attack

The trouble is that her real name was used in these attacks. If you post something, using a real person's real name, you better make sure that it is not false and malicious.

I can understand why she was concerned - just based on the seeming groundless attacks I've seen against her. Most people would be outraged if a group they were trying to help allowed people to present false attacks against them. I think any other Democratic leader in her position would have reacted in the same way.

A lot of people may not know the good she has done. If this election is overturned, it will be 90% or more her doing.

No voters registration information is required for DU. Groups like Democrats.com work to make sure that their members are not Republicans. Maybe the DU might want to require more information when it signs up new members. It's odd that after all the information about all the DU postings of voter fraud made the news, we had an increase in members and attacks on Democrats and those trying to overturn the election. Maybe there's a connection.

[IAMREALITY]

684. You've Got To Be Kidding

"If this election is overturned, it will be 90% or more her doing"

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this almost 700 post thread yet...

[genius]

686. Watch her interview with Dean or "Invisible Ballots" or check on her

post-election work and the freedom of information requests she filed. This woman is working her tail off while the DNC is sitting around and pretending Bush won.

[IAMREALITY]

689. I'll give her 2% Credit, Nothing More. 90% is Mass Delusional

And that 2% is the best estimate figure from REALITY, a true legally document IQ certified Genius, rather then merely a moniker.

:)

[Constitution]

697. And what are you doing to prove Bush cheated?

[IAMREALITY]

699. Everything In My Power

(but don't worry, I won't ask you for money to help and will continue to provide any evidence for FREE without DELAY as soon as I come across it, and won't threaten you with a lawsuit if you say something I don't like. You have my word)

[Walt Starr]

654. Sorry, I'm a personal responsibility type of perrson

Bev is the root cause of Bev's problems.

Blaming it on Republicans is as bad as Republicans blaming everything bad on homosexuals.

[msgadget]

2. Wow. (eom)

[wicket]

4. My exact thoughts too.

[IAMREALITY]

3. Earl, Incredible Post!

I am extremellllllly relieved to find that the top of DU is this objective and that my personal beliefs on the situation were not in fact as far off center of DU culture as I feared.

I have always believed that trouble makers, regardless of righteous convictions, are still counter-productive.


I do firmly support Bev's mission, as I agree we all should, but I do not condone that attacking anybody aas she consistently has done is ever productive to ANY cause.

Thank you for putting some 'REALITY' on this subject.

[joeunderdog]

227. Content, but no delivery. Just as I suspected.

I wondered why there was so much activity--dozens of lawsuits, press releases, etc.--but no real traction or breakthroughs in local or federal courts or in the court of public opinion. I donated to BBV because I believe in the project, but I have been wondering if they are managed by the emotion/anger of the cause rather than a sensible, credible plan. Bev's pprobably amazingly overwelmed in this high stakes game and has lost some composure.

Has anyone else wondered why Bev just doesn't seduce many people into "believing" despite having a tremendously compelling cause? I think she is on solid ground in asserting that these voting machines cheat voters and candidates, and I know this is of interest to most Americans, press included. Where are the breakthroughs in garnering support?

It seems that Bev has problems getting along with others. She seems like someone whose anger needs containment so that her credibility and the credibility of the cause can be where it needs to be at such an important time in history. If she comes across looking like a loose cannon, then the merits of her--and OUR--cause get dismissed.

Good speakers have to present well in addition to being organized and having good material. It looks like Bev just has the material, and that BBV needs a new face to their cause.

[Maddy McCall]

234. Bar none, this is the BEST POST on this topic ever.

Excellent and insightful. :thumbsup:

[Sperk]

714. Is there any documenation of this ANGER....I'm not saying I don't believe

you but it's like the WMD....not much evidence to condemn someone on. Even if she's a hothead off the record...that's not the same thing as doing it publicly. Many people are hot heads off the record.

Seems to me her biggest offense is theatening too many lawsuits...maybe it's just her way of saying..."Hey, guys, I'm not kidding!"

I'm not making any judgements about the Mods cutting her..it's their website and their call and we can always check her site out if we want....I guess I'm trying to say....I see A LOT of smoke (mostly name calling) and NO FIRE.
:shrug:

[YellowDoginthehouse]

257. Fair enough.

The attitude expressed here is fairly even handed, so I have no complaints to raise.

The mods gotta do what they gotta do to maintain order...

[suziedemocrat]

359. Not to sound PolyAnna, But...

Uncontroled emotions, especially anger, can be a sign of a nutritional diffeciency. Lots of vitamins and minerals control moods. I used to lose my temper a lot. Now I eat a lot better, and I take some great vitamins. It DOES make a difference.

[Eric J in MN]

558. How many people would even know the terms "blackbox voting"

or "verified-voting" if not for Bev Harris?

You're criticizing her because everyone isn't aware of these issues?

Compare the number who know about these issues now to the number who did in 2002.

[joeunderdog]

590. I agree with you to some extent and appreciate what she's done.

But for a cause that is so universally important--even to honest Republicans--I am disappointed about missed, crucial opportunities for this historic moment in time. The Oberman thing is a big PR blunder, and dissing DU and its constructive criticism is a mistake that we can't afford right now.

To be fair, Bev has had to be cautious of spies and sabateurs and even her own safety, so her guarded approach to trusting "helpers" is understandable. She clearly needs to hire the right people to help with this. But I worry that she has lost the ability to recognize supports and accept help--necessary elements of taking this to the next level. "Me against the world" isn't getting it done.

She went into this like a child star who stumbled onto a radio hit, and needs a new manager now that she is on the big stage. The Game is now On. Unfortunately, her weakness is in not recognizing and using constructive resources available to her.

And we are losing in the most important court...the court of public opinion.

[Eric J in MN]

641. Republicans aren't worried because they own the voting machine companies.

That isn't Bev's fault.

Sequioa is for sale. A Democrat should buy it. Then Republicans would oppose blackbox voting.

[Kelvin Mace]

662. No spies

To be fair, Bev has had to be cautious of spies and sabateurs and even her own safety, so her guarded approach to trusting "helpers" is understandable. She clearly needs to hire the right people to help with this. But I worry that she has lost the ability to recognize supports and accept help--necessary elements of taking this to the next level. "Me against the world" isn't getting it done.

I'm sorry, I just don't by her claims. I have seen no spys, no sabotuers, only Bev's paranoia. The only hacking incident I am aware of was a script-kiddie who took down the .com site last Fall.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

695. Good leaders have to trust people to make the movement broad...

and acceptible to the grassroots. IF they don't, the movement will die in infancy.

Bev's two paranoid flaws are paranoia and narcissism. Those are the two most lethal flaws a movement leader can possess, as far as sabotaging a movement.

[Stand and Fight]

664. Hmmm....

My knowledge of black box voting emerged as a result of talking to someone who told me about this website about a year ago. I've been lurking since then, but that is where I learned about the nefarious system of black box voting.

[xultar]

291. The bottom line here is that it should be about voting and not about

personalities. Which I totally agree with in this situation. I'm just sad that this episode will overshadow all that we've brought to light in the last month.

[Goldmund]

5. Works for me.

But how come I can't find her tombstone?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it...

[IAMREALITY]

Are you serious?

Tombstoned isn't just a term but an actual moniker given to somebody banned?

How do I view that? (if that is the case and I'm not just missing somethin)

[crispini]

31. It's when you click on their profile. n/t

[Goldmund]

45. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=121879

[IAMREALITY]

50. That is just Too Goddam funny!

Thank you both for that. I had no idea getting tombstoned was more than just symbolic!

DU is awesome. I love that graphic!

[SomthingsGotaGive]

108. DU is so awesome it is vital we protect it's integrity.

Thank you for listening everyone this has been a tough time for us all.

Now lets kick some ass.

Great job DU Admin.

I will now drop this subject!

[HeyManThatsCool]

244. YOU ARE 1,000,000% RIGHT

Protecting the integrity of DU should be our priority.
It is our best forum to discuss issues with eachother- and get the word out.

[regularjoe]

163. It says "He Disrupted....Poorly". Maybe we need "She Disrupted poorly" n/t

[dennis4868]

6. It is sad that it has come to this....

:-(

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

54. my feelings exactly )c: n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

7. Two bridges burned in two days

Quite an achievement.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[texpatriot2004]

26. 2 - No one bridge burned. n/t

[righteous1]

144. After you have burned all the bridges....your left on an island

[cry baby]

27. Where will she go to publicize her findings now?

[ohio_liberal]

33. Her website? n/t

[cry baby]

42. Will MSM take her website seriously?

I hope so!

[ohio_liberal]

47. The website...

It will either sink or swim on its own merits, I imagine

[Maddy McCall]

96. She spent more time at DU than at her own website.

:shrug:

[ohio_liberal]

119. I know

I guess that will be changing soon.

[info being]

8. Good decision

Lending unquestioning support to an egotistical PR personality is never a good idea.

[meisje]

9. Some people just do not work well with others

Too bad really, where would she be without DU?

[AmyCrat]

11. Earl, we haven't "met" on the boards...

but I just want to commend you for trying to remain objective, and for handling whatever has transpired (obviously a lot of it long before I got here) in a professional way.

Keep up the great work.

[Left Brain]

150. I'd like to add to that.

As a newbie, it really helps to have the background information. Thank you for posting it, AdminEarl.

[Melinda]

12. Thank you very much.

As one who spent hundreds of hours doing legal research for BBV during the years 2002 and 2003, I too am appalled by the events over the course of the last 18 months.

Many of us feel very used. More important, many of us are hurt and angered that this issue has been reduced to ego.

Thank you for this.

[troubleinwinter]

13. (sigh of relief)

[Pepper32]

14. And the axe came down. Looks like it had to be done. Sad situation n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. "Use DU" was certainly the right term

[hlthe2b]

16. thank you for addressing the issue with us...

I take no sides and respect your decisions.

[LoZoccolo]

17. Going forward: how can we de-monopolize this issue?

Other people have pointed out that it's unfortunate - and surprising, actually - that this huge issue was pretty much tended to by one organization led by one strong personality and just a handful of staff. How would you all suggest that we proceed - should we try to lobby a more established and accountable group or groups to take on this issue?

[IAMREALITY]

28. May not answer your question,

But right now I find the news that the House Judiciary Committee (albeit the Dem branch) sent a 15 page amazing detailed letter to Katherine Blackwell, and are scheduling public hearings on fraud/iregularities, extremely encouraging/exciting. This paired with the rising each day focus on Ohio are now my strongest hopes for all this.

[tsuki]

64. Where is this letter, please? The link provided would not open for me.

[Zan_of_Texas]

339. letter from members of Congress to Blackwell

http://www.spidel.net/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf
14 page letter


December 2, 2004

Letter to Kenneth Blackwell
Ohio Secretary of State


BRIEF EXCERPT
Spoiled Ballots

According to post election canvassing, many ballots were cast without any valid selection for president. For example, two precincts in Montgomery County had an undervote rate of over 25% each -- accounting for nearly 6,000 voters who stood in line to vote, but purportedly declined to vote for president. 33 This is in stark contrast to the 2% of undervoting county-wide.34 Disturbingly, predominantly Democratic precincts had 75% more undervotes than those that were predominantly Republican.35 It is inconceivable to us that such a large number of people supposedly did not have a preference for president in such a controversial and highly contested election.

Considering that an estimated 93,000 ballots were spoiled across Ohio,36 we would like to know the following:

11. How many of those spoiled ballots were of the punch card or optical scan format and could therefore be examined in a recount?

12. Of those votes that have a paper trail, how many votes for president were undercounted, or showed no preference for president? How many were overcounted, or selected more than one candidate for president? How many other ballots had an indeteminate preference?

13. Of the total 93,000 spoiled ballots, how many were from predominantly Democratic precincts? How many were from minority-majority precincts?

14. Are you taking steps to ensure that there will be a paper trail for all votes before the 2006 elections so that spoiled ballots can be individually re-examined?

....

If you have any questions about this inquiry, please contact Perry Apelbaum or Ted Kalo of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff at [phone]

Signed,
John Conyers
Tammy Baldwin
Jerrold Nadler
Melvin Watt

[beets]

609. Enforce that those crucial questions be answered!

That congressional letter was dated thurday 12-2. There are no outstanding names among those who signed it. Prediction: Mr. Blackwell ignores it because he will address nothing unless his feet are to the fire and a higher court forces him to answer. Result: Waste of time. As far as I'm concerned, Kerry had better get a backbone soon, if not, he may not get anything above local dogcatcher in '08. It's been 12 years since the dems had anything resembling a pleasant surprise.

[Turn CO Blue]

228. Hear, hear! The letters are one of the best things to happen

since the Selection!

[BlueWolff]

34. Unfortunate

I have been a supporter and find this unfortunate...I see now that unless Bev changes her ways and shows PROOF ...N O W ...that she is on the up and up..she risks much work by many being dumped into the annals of conspiracy..We ALL know that not to be true..you can be crazy but you have to back it up with PROOF...SHOW THE TAPES NOW BEV...My friends and I have contributed lots of money and I am really upset at her!!!
**********To the DU staff...from now on PLEASE let us know of problems like this so we can make better judgements on WHERE to put our hard earned money...
Thanks
Blue Wolff

[Kelvin Mace]

101. There ARE other groups

I've got links to a number of them at blackboxvoting.com, which since emails have just started to come in, I wish to clarify a few points about:

1) I am not interested in taking up from Bev (never was). I have been pretty badly mangled on the periphery of the issue and have no desire to move to the center.

2) I prefer to keep my site a news site to help guide people to other groups and resources and keep them abreast of the news.

3) I am not interested in raising money and do not want to open that Pandora's Box. I am one person and will just muddle along as I can. If you want to help, I can use some folks to help me keep news and links up to date. At some point I would like to shift the site to a different software package which would allow cooperative posting of news story's like the LBN forum here at DU.

(That said, if some rich and generous soul wants to come invest in my publishing company and bring more humor to the world, let's talk. <G>)

4) As to what folks can do, I offer a short term and a long term suggestion:

Short term: Focus on a few locations, not multi-state shotgun attacks. We are too few, our money too scant for such an attack to work. Ohio and Florida seem to have problems, but Ohio now has the House Judiciary Committee asking questions and seems to me the logical target. This means GET OUT ON THE STREETS IN OHIO. If a handful of GOP thugs were able to thwart a legitimate recount WHY can't we get people to protest for a legitimate recount? And let's not shoot for a handful, lets shoot for 10,000+. That will bring the cameras running, as it did for the GOP in 2000.

Long term: It's a local issue. Annoy the hell out of your election officials, but take a lesson from Bev's flame out. Be polite, but annoying. Don't run in making wild claims and warning of conspiracies no matter how much you believe them to be true. Stick to the facts:

ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES ARE INSECURE AND INACCURATE AND MUST BE REPLACED WITH A SYSTEM THE VOTERS BELIEVE IN AND RESPECT!!

The reason you harp on this is because we have tons of HARD PROOF to back it up. Write letters, call in to local talk shows, haunt civic groups and churches. This is very much a local issue were people DO make a difference.

4) I am committed to working on this problem in my home state (NC) and will continue with those efforts. My fellow North Carolinians are welcome to make a nuisance of themselves with me.

David Allen
www.plan9.org
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[DemOperative]

208. Just wanted to add a contact

http://www.verifiedvoting.org.

Have LOTS of folks who spun off from Bev when they saw a problem nearly a year ago.

[Kelvin Mace]

246. Good group

which I feel chagrined for not linking to. I am WAY behind on site maintenance.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[Quick n Low]

458. Don't forget VotersUnite.org

Which is run by two former members of VerifiedVoting and a former admin from BBV.

Some of the best work out there, hands down.

Check out the Myth Breakers document they compiled:

http://www.votersunite.org/takeaction/mythbreakers.pdf

Keep up the good work David!

[Walt Starr]

254. LoZoccolo, I think you've hit on an important issue that applies elsewhere

It behooves DUers to insure that when issues are uncovered in the future, they are not allowed to devolve into a cult of personality. I think that if we looked into several issues over the past few decades, many of the failures on the left have been related to this issue.

I don't know how we overcome this issue as ego becomes an issue for any person put into the spotlight. We should be cognizant of the fact that this is a problem that can occur in any investigation and work to insure nothing gets monopolized.

[m berst]

270. important issue Walt

Why does it have to always be either hero or villain, to be worshiped or destroyed? Why not healthy skepticism and open-mindedness?

No leader will ever do and say each and every thing to each and every person's complete satisfaction. Expecting this of our leaders puts a burden on them that not only prevents many leaders from stepping forward, but it makes it difficult for them to be effective when they do. This also divides the community in bitter and unnecessary ways.

I can't think of one liberal or progressive leader who has not alternately been treated as either the second coming or the devil incarnate here, often on the most flimsy and superficial evidence.

[yardwork]

331. Walt, that's a very important point.

Here on DU, the admins and mods do a great job containing this exact issue. Their responses and decisions are even-handed and thoughtful. They do not allow egos to run rampant

The Democratic Party could do well to follow the leadership model here at DU. So could all of us who are liberals, progressives, lefties, greens, or whatever we call ourselves.

On the whole, the Democratic Party is mostly averse to following leaders. That is one reason why that other party has been able to fool half of America into following them, even though their policies harm the majority in order to enrich the very few.

We need to rethink our teamwork model, imo.

[Malikshah]

18. Although I applaud the patience of the administration

It might have been better as an announcement rather than a thread.

Just a suggestion.

In the end, this whole brouhaha is quite scary to see. Herding cats indeed.

Alas for Democracy.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

72. It Would Have Become a Thread Anyway

Hell, it would have become a dozen threads. At least this way, there is one centralized place for discussion, which is one of the fundamental tenets of this board.

I applaud and support Admin's decision.

DTH

[Triana]

20. Gee Earl...

...ya shoulda been a lawyer! You guys do a great job managing this very busy site. I haven't kept up with all the pissing and moaning vis a vis Bev Harris, but I trust your judgement - it seems solid, given the background of the issue.

Rock on...

[atommom]

21. Thanks for filling in some of the background for those of us who are

still relatively new here. It sounds like you made the right decision!

[Ardee]

22. What hope is there

if we continue to engage in pissing contests rather than work constructively and together towards common goals. Not that I am not guilty of lack of patience on occasion (well maybe too frequently) but the left has a long and checkered history of fragmentation and ego driven brawling.

It is noteworthy to see how the various factions on the right have put aside differences to achieve goals......

[Fenris]

An excellent decision, EarlG.

:thumbsup:

[Darknyte7]

23. Damn shame, but it sounds like a reasonable & defensible position...

I realize I'm a newbie, but I truly hope we can move on from this.

[billie_]

24. Sad that we cannot all work together :( n/t

[goclark]

703. Especially during such fragile times : ( n/t

[november3rd]

25. dirty laundry

couldn't you have just barred her without making a public announcement? What difference do the details make now?

[info being]

29. Sometimes there is a certain amount of truth to be found in dirty laundry

[Feathered Fish]

30. Rumours run rampant 'round here

better that it's discussed by admin instead of DUers who only know 1/2 the story.

[IAMREALITY]

35. Well Since you only have 29 posts I can see why you might not understand

This was an extremely heated issue which garnished some realllly strong opinions between DU'rs. A statement in 'public' like this was absolutely necessary since this issue had grown so large. I applaud them completely in their handling of this.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Winamericaback]

40. Because

Her staunch supporters would pretty much start flaming the admins for banning her without knowing the reason.

Also its their site, if they want to let us know why then they can :)
Its an open community, I think they shared the info with respect to that.

[EarlG]

43. Typically we do not discuss why DU members are banned

and it is our preference not to. However, this is an atypical situation. We felt that it was important for everyone to understand why we have made this decision.

[bunny planet]

79. Thank you , I appreciate your being open with us so much.

As a relatively new member, who has not been following the original postings from Ms. Harris here (did see the most recent I'll sue you exchange though), I was alarmed that her position as a self-proclaimed spokesperson for this cause was doing more harm than good. I just hope she hasn't done too much damage already, or potentially could do more. I think some of what she's done is important work, I just hope she has the sense to get someone more amenable (and stable) to be the pr person for BBV, otherwise its credibility will devolve further. If she does have good evidence of fraud in Florida, I hope she can figure out a way to get it out there without stomping on any more toes in the process.

[rainbow4321]

483. I'm glad, too...

Cuz coming to DU and seeing SO many threads either started because of or highjacked by the fight was getting on my nerves...no matter what parties were involved. Weeding thru/scrolling past them was a pain in the ass.

[DoYouEverWonder]

153. Bev has made herself a 'public' figure

She is no longer just another anonymous poster.

The only thing I don't understand is how does she have so much time to harass people here, when she's suppose to be up to her ears in this voter fraud stuff? No wonder she missed the deadline for filing that lawsuit in FL.

Unfortunately, Bev has allowed herself to become the story and a good investigator always tries to avoid that.

[leftchick]

180. I was wondering the same DYEW...

time is of the essence now. Or so I was told.

[T Town Jake]

46. Peddle it elsewhere. This isn't the time or appropriate thread for it.

(n/t)

[TruthOutDawg]

53. Actually I REALLY appreciate it!

I've had my concerns based on stunts like that retirement party "service" of LaPore and other communications from BH and I've given money to BBV.org but I've been somewhat uncomfortable with that decision and torn between giving money to BBV.org and other groups like verifiedvoting so I found this really helpful. For the most part, those of us on this site don't have a single dime to spare and it's really important that we make the best decisions about who to support and how to support them. THANK YOU DU for trying as hard as you did and for making the hard decisions AND for the transparency of process!!!!!

[Zan_of_Texas]

349. Resources for Recount

A beginning of a list of some of the organizations currently involved in recounting and protecting the vote.....

RESOURCES FOR RECOUNT

The Alliance for Democracy -- The organization was founded by journalist Ronnie Dugger, who wrote one of the first major pieces warning of voting machine flaws, in 1988. Cliff Arnebeck is also a leader in this organization -- he's a litigant in the contest of elections in Ohio. http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org/

C.A.S.E. -- Citizens' Alliance for Secure Elections http://www.caseohio.org

Green Party -- The Greens and Libertarians raised over $200,000 to run the Ohio recount -- still raising money and helping mobilize possibly 2500 volunteers needed in Ohio. Now calling for recount in NM and NV. www.votecobb.org

Libertarian Party -- www.badnarik.org

Nader -- calling for a partial recount in NH raising funds www.votenader.org Kevin Zeese, Campaign Spokesperson [phone]

Black Box Voting.org -- www.blackboxvoting.org Bev Harris & crew doing multi-state audit and forensic work on elections, currently investigating counties in Florida

Help America Recount -- a 527 working with the National Ballot Integrity Project and BlackBoxVoting.org to raise funds for recounts, audits and court challenges in Florida & fraud audits in New Mexico and Nevada. www.helpamericarecount.org

Voters Unite -- www.votersunite.org has a growing collection of over 380 articles on voting anomalies in the November 2004 election. Also, a map of where these happened in the US.

Evidence of Possible Election Fraud -- a nice compendium of sources http://shadowbox.i8.com//stolen.htm

Common Cause Ohio -- part of recount effort in Ohio (614)-224-2497 www.commoncause-ohio.org/ccause/home.htm [e-mail]

Votergate -- 30 Minute video, free online, of voting anomalies, etc. -- needs money to continue to investigate and make a longer film. http://www.votergate.tv

Votewatch -- http://www.votewatch.us wants $250,000 to do a professional statistical analysis of the election which can be used as hard evidence of fraud

Verified Voting.org -- www.verifiedvoting.org

Stolen Election 2004 -- current list of protests etc. http://stolenelection2004.com/demos.html

True Majority -- www.truemajority.org founded by Ben of Ben & Jerry's fame

Electronic Freedom Foundation -- www.eff.org moving under the Open Records Act, which allows people to see government records, to gather information, including the impoundment of voting machines, in some counties in Florida, Ohio, New Mexico and Pennsylvania that had serious problems with the machines. Local counsel are needed to help with this effort. Contact Cindy Cohn at [e-mail]

N.C. Coalition for Verifiable Voting -- www.ncvoter.net

Election Protection Coalition -- http://www.electionprotection2004.org Multicultural coalition of dozens of organizations. Over 15,000 problems reported to their hotline on election day; over 25,000 volunteers mobilized. Note collection of stories at http://www.electionprotection2004.org/edaynews.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Other states' groups:

California Voter Foundation http://www.calvoter.org/
Georgia www.countthevote.org
Texas Safe Voting http://www.safevoting.org
~~~~~~~~~~~


Secretary of State of Ohio, Ken Blackwell, Republican www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/ General Telephone Number (Toll Free): 1-877-767-6446

GAO - contact, support thorough investigation of election machinery, processes: http://www.gao.gov/fraudnet/fraudnet.htm

Congressman Rush Holt wrote HR 2239 for voter verified paper ballot, also has a site on voting http://www.counteveryvote.org/

[intelle]

176. I think this was the best way to approach this issue

Many of us would have been wondering what happened, and the moderators would have been plagued with a lot of questions to that effect.

I think this was handled appropriately, and with great wisdom.

:yourock:

[HeyManThatsCool]

253. The High Road

I think Earl did a GREAT job of communicating- bluntly & to the point- WHY the decision was made.

He was right to do so- having Bev banned WITHOUT explanation would have opened another can of worms as people started making wild accusations. DU doesnt need to be defiled with wild accusations.
He was honest and upfront- something I think most of us agree is the best way to conduct business.

[bobbieinok]

687. lots of us, like me, have followed some of this and have become

confused and upset over what's going on

it's helpful to have one coherent summary from one viewpoint (DU's)

and why oh why can't democrats dump egos and work together instead of spending so much time and energy fighting with each other????

[Snivi Yllom]

32. good decision

it was primarily a one way relationship from what I can tell benefitting her and BBV

[T Town Jake]

36. I applaud the fairness and objectivity of the Admins...

...you put up with the disruptions from that quarter far longer than I would have - and did so with patience and grace. Now, finally, perhaps some semblance of peace can return to the threads where this topic is an ongoing discussion.

[Coventina]

37. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Admin.

You have handled this difficult situation with great tact and cool-headedness.

[Lerkfish]

188. agreed.

I was uncertain where to fall on this issue, and then decided I didn't need to...I applaud the level headed management here

[Mist]

394. I'm a newbie, but lurked a long time

It's too bad Bev "doesn't play well with others," but the DU Admin. did indeed handle the whole thing with patience and tact.

423. Well, done, moderator, and best of luck to Bev

I think the original post was very well written. I'm sorry that divisiveness has entered the DU world. Perhaps one day we'll move past it.

I appreciate your clear communication to us. This is not about being pro or con Bev. It's about having constructive discussion.

Thanks.

[Razorback_Democrat]

38. Good decision, now let's move on!

get back to cracking the election fraud!!!!!!

get away from distractions like "who's telling the truth" etc. etc.

Thanks Earl!

[Old Mouse]

39. Price of responsibility

I have the greatest respect for those who pay the emotional toll of moderating a political forum during such a volatile time.

[Maat]

We here in the Maat household support you fully, EarlG!

DU has provided invaluable emotional support, an outlet for my progressive views, and has been a catalyst for progressive networking and org. growth. I appreciate your work and am a proud donor!

Sorry that it came to this, but your post was very well-written. I intend to support voting system auditing, monitoring, and improvement efforts. There are many good ways to do this, however.

[spotbird]

41. There was so much fighting going on that I was afraid to ask

how releasing the information about the tapes would tip the hand of the offenders in Florida? They knew how they cheated, assuming they did, they had another copy of the tape to study for differences so it didn't follow to me that releasing the information publicly would do anything harmful to her effort.

It seemed that the release would be entirely beneficial, thousands of heads to analyze the data, as well as lending her much needed credibility.

This was a good decision on the part of the moderators although I feel bad for Bev and her supporters, the fighting just had to stop.

[JD Lau]

44. Does anybody have Bev Harris' birth date information?

As long as we are in the mode of "looking at Bev" one way or the other...

I have been a practicing astrologer for many years and had done searches for Ms Harris' birthdata on the internet with no success in these past weeks. I'm not interested in anything other than just her birth date(if you have anything else, such as place or time of birth that would be great, but it's not necessary). I'd be curious to know what sort of planetary problems she is dealing with.

I can surely understand DU's position, and also feel you have done very well to maintain your objectivity...just as a wise parent. Sometimes you must go for the "tough love" aspect.

Thanks for any info.

JD

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Perhaps that, her social security number and major credit cards would

give a better reading.

Apologies if you are sincere, but I find asking for someone's personal info on a political forum to be very inappropriate and would hope even if someone HAD the info they would not tell you.

[Razorback_Democrat]

63. No kidding

that would be inappropriate for any reason

astrologer?

[JD Lau]

69. Good Lord, you can go to just about any astro site on the web,

especially Lois Rodden's and get personal data for ANY public
figure. Try it yourself. I have both Eliz Edwards and John Edwards charts, Kerry's chart...Gore's chart.

If you think this is inappropriate, then fine. Guess I'll just keep looking elsewhere...

I'll post the URL for Rodden's site and you can see for yourself, just what data is available for personal research. Just as voting records are available.....


Here's the Rodden site URL...Astrodatabank.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/Links.htm

Check out your favorite "famous people"

Yes, this is a sidenote and a monumental waste of energy, but for those of us wondering about the dynamics of the continuing election process, Ms. Harris' info would make a nice counter to all I have regarding Bush and Cheney.

Nevermind. Energy better turned in many other directions.

JD

[Goldmund]

62. LOL

[CyberChas]

68. How about sleep deprivation and stress?

That can make a person a bit "gritchy" as well.

Charlie Levenson
Portland, Oregon
[e-mail]

[JD Lau]

80. Yeah, but different people handle stress and sleep depriviation

in different ways. I, personally, don't know all that many people that threaten lawsuits when sleep deprived. ;)

[YellowDoginthehouse]

374. Sounds like a uranus transit, almost.

Geez, louise! All he wants is her date, time and place of birth. He/she doesn't care about anything else, just those numbers. You'd think he was asking for really personal information, or something. Calm down.

JD, email her and ask her. She'll probably tell you.

[jbnow]

409. I hear you

You can't help but wonder. Some Mars/Mercury/Pluto issues? Where's the Leo...and so on.

[sunnystarr]

720. I was really getting Scorpio and Pluto issues ...

maybe combined with a strong Saturn placement which would explain the control issues. Of course it could be an eight house Leo sun as well and we may both be right lol.

[saracat]

48. Thank you Earl.

This was a wise and thoughtful decision. You are to be commended for your patience. You have taken a stand for the protection not only of the crediblity od DU. But the credeibility of the Voter fraud issue in general.I am sure this will go a long way to rebuilding confidence in this issue. Thank you again. You guys rock!:yourock:

[JoMama49]

49. Are you sure it's the real Bev Harris

Or Karl Rove in drag?
JoMama.

[AmyCrat]

55. Karl Rove in Drag -- *shudder* -- LOL n/t

[nostamj]

110. karl in drag..... doesn't look a bit like Bev!

[ohio_liberal]

121. LMFAO

It's Barbara Rove :D

[intelle]

184. This is hysterical...LOL!!

Thank you for making me laugh!

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[DemOperative]

214. yes..but add the right wig!!

That's a horse of a different color

[Maddy McCall]

57. They have her IP adress.

They know things you and I don't.

Bev crucified herself. DU admin nor Rove didn't have to do it for her.

[Dolphyn]

58. I was wondering that too.

With everything she's doing in Florida, it's hard to believe that she'd have time to sit around flagging messages at DU ...

[Maddy McCall]

86. Without DU, she wouldn't be doing ANYTHING in Florida.

DU was Bev's springboard and remained her greatest avenue to solicit. (She even solicited TODAY on DU!)

Now she has no DU.

[intelle]

187. Maddy...I noticed this too

I contributed to her site after the election, and, while I did not take an active role in the discussions about KO and Bev, I was thinking that, as a donor, I, as well as all other donors, deserved some evidence of the fruits of our donations.

And, I noticed that she talked about additional expenses today...and requested more donations. I wondered about this as we hadn't really seen any evidence that our money was really at work.

I believe in this cause, but I am not sure that it is being well-served by Bev and her group.

I feel used. But, as they say, "live and learn"...

:-)

[Unforgiven]

372. Used

and probably the last short term hope dashed to the rocks. A hope that there could be redemption for this country. We may have turned the corner now. And there may be no return in the foreseeable future.
Looks like a mighty long road ahead.
Yea, Used!

[jmatthan]

51. Another win for the repugs in the divide and rule philosophy

Sad, but that seems to be what American democracy is about - handing victory to the opponent.

Just by the way, unlike most of you I did not hear about Bev Harris and BBV from DU - it was through talk show hosts Mike Malloy, Thom Hartmann, Peter Werbe and Mike Webb.

Do recall what I wrote about ego!!!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu Finland

[Maddy McCall]

60. Bev wouldn't have been on Malloy or any other media forum

without DU. Period.

[jmatthan]

92. Sorry, but I have heard a lot of

people on these shows which have NEVER been featured on the DU forum (during my time here).

Please try to stop thinking inside of a small box audience of around NOW 60000!!

If I am not wrong when I joined DU is was only half that number!!!

My "small" findians worldwide community is over 80000.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[Maddy McCall]

120. You miss the point.

Bev would not have even attached to the issue of BBV had it not been for DU, where the BBV was already developing when she latched on.

[Walt Starr]

126. Yep, it goes waaaaay back and is in the DU archives

Bev Harris did not originate the idea that these new voting machiens were a bad idea.

[AmyCrat]

152. and ultimately, the whole case of electrion fraud will be nowhere

without the MSM -- so it's not a bridge you wanna burn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

190. actually Skip Fox IIRC used to post a compendium of BBV issues

in editorials on a daily basis when no one was paying attention to the issue. He did the same thing with Halliburton. This was a few years ago.

[DemOperative]

219. where IS Skip Fox today??

Masterful researcher. I tried to get him to go to work for the party, but to no avail.

I LOVED his stuff when I only lurked

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

223. He still posts but is busy and is probably still in mourning, I imagine

he lost his father last year

[Kelvin Mace]

255. The earliest reference I have come up

with on the topic is a Symposium in Boston in 1986.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Faun Otter]

199. You're exactly right about the historical aspect

And thanks, Earl.

I feel safe posting on DU again.

Faun

[bleever]

353. Faun Otter is on a very short list of names of people in the U.S.

who were making the case within hours of Kerry's concession that "This is wrong. We can prove it."

I feel like this early moment was like another Boston Tea Party. A bunch of good minds got together and said, "What the fuck???" And "What are we going to do about it?"

It is turning out to be historical in its ramifications.

I salute you.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

518. Hey Jacob

Do some homework and stop lecturing Americans on how to deal with agent provocateurs.

Search the archives...if you are not a member use the goggle advanced site search feature.

Either way search...

Bev + Evidence + Donations


In the Time you've been here have you ever seen Bev or anyone from BBV ever say...

"look there is only three of us. there is no way we will be able to go through all of the info everyone is sending us. please also send copies to the other BBV organizations to speed the process up."


Did she ever hire any more staff with the donations in order to at least deal with phone and email messages?


Instead she sat back let everybody send her their vote fraud tips and data analysis and never looked at ANY of it.

How could she. ALL three of them are gallivanting around Florida reliving their glory days this time with a film crew.

Sooooo

Professor Democracy, Which do you think is better...

Letting a tumor fester and grow for the sake of unity during your slow painful death.

or

Radical invasive surgery to remove the tumor, while immediately traumatic, the patient lives.

[Kelvin Mace]

551. Jacob, could I get

your views on this post by Bev on her on site?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=111218&page=

Please keep in mind when you read this how many people from Bev's legions have accused us of working for Karl Rove.

[tsuki]

73. It is difficult for a strong personality to throw themselves into a fight

like this without it becoming "ego." It is the reason why so many "crusaders" are seen as misfits and egomanics by their contempories and heroes by future generations who see only the accomplishments.

I wish Bev Harris well. I respect the Admin's decision.

I shall be following her work, as all other groups.

[saracat]

148. And none of those are really MSM. Preaching to the choir.

Any of us could get on those shows in a nano second.

[HeyManThatsCool]

256. NO

It is NOT a "win" for the republicans.
You cant think like that!

edited to add: A win for the republicans would be if we all rolled over, grabbed the kool aid jug and started gulping. We aren't about to do that

[KoKo]

388. OFGS! Whatever you gave you gave to what you thought was a good

cause! Bev's stuff convinced one freep type and two friends Repugs in my own circle of friends,that there was something wrong with our voting. So If that's just three folks for me...how many others did the research DU'ers did for her contribute to waking up folks.

I hate to hear this "Lost Cause Stuff." I'm so down in the dumps it's hard for me to see up...but in this case whatever you gave to get the message about BBVoting out was worth it. Just forget the "leader." I'm not fond of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton...but when you need 'em they are their with their mouths...

Just trying to "buck you up" not dis you here...

[Maddy McCall]

52. I knew it was bad, but I had no idea that it was THAT bad.

You made the right decision. Now let's get down to the real business of voter fraud.

:toast:

[ClarkUSA]

87. Let's Keep Supporting Keith Olbermann

[e-mail]

Question:
Will Bev's damaged standing affect the fight for election reform? Like it or not,
her work and her website is identified with the fight for paper-trail verification.
David Dill of Verified Voting disappointed me after the election when I thought
he'd at least raise questions.

Let's all try to make it to Columbus, OH tomorrow and DC on Tuesday.

[Maddy McCall]

124. I have emailed him twice, thanking him for his journalistic efforts.

He's a true advocate for us.

[IAMREALITY]

135. I wonder if anybody will email him this Thread Post n/t

[rockedthevoteinMA]

137. I emailed him too today, thanking him for his objectivity and

saying that I hoped he hadn't received too many off the wall emails yelling at him about Bev... I haven't commented on this much because I am new, but I have read all the evidence that has been provided. I think we need to let Keith now that he is doing the right thing by remaining objective, because that IS his job. I know I might get flamed for saying this, but really, we need to stay calm, and think before hitting send. Keith is the only one covering this - we need to respect him for it, and thank him. Just my two cents.

And thank you Administrators for clearing this up for me, I didn't know what to think over the past few days with all the mud slinging. :)

[Casablanca]

56. Very sorry to hear this about Bev.

And a good response from the moderators. The cause of verified voting is far too crucial to have it shot down by her overplaying the lawsuit activism game, if that is the case.

[stirringstill]

70. Back To Issues

Lawsuit threats never win friends.

[crispini]

59. End of the story.

Seen it before -- some people just let ego get in the way. Sigh.

[Miami Liberal]

61. Good decision

now we can move on to other issues.

[Ducks In A Row]

65. I'm sorry, but I don't agree this is Bev's fault as you imply

Bev Harris has been kind enough to share what's happening. I for one am grateful for the dialog.

It's sad that DU piles on because Bev isn't toadying up to some people the way those people want.

But that's not Bev's fault, seeing how she gets along quite well with people who aren't being primadonna. Mike Webb doesn't have problems with her, yet Keith Oblermann does. Randi Rhodes doesn't have problems with her.

I think it's especially rude to make this announcement in the middle of what is a crucial time for Florida. And it's esp. stupid in light that Keith Oblermann's bullshit seems to be the catalyst for this bull.

Well, if it's a choice between a Keith Oblermann, whose only two jobs are to get ratings and not bash bushco, and Bev Harris, it's Bev all the way.

Btw, banning Bev and not the freepers who followed Keith O. lead is the height of hypocrisy.



Its' too bad DU seems to be playing into the hands of the MSM, bushco, and the freepers at this time. And sad. And very disappointing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. And I am sick and tired of you calling anyone who has issues with Bev a

FREEPER. We are not the ones who sold Clinton Cigars, she is. If ANYONE might possibly be the enemy, I think it would be the one who CONNIVED Du'ers into writing a book for her, all the while she denying that was what she was doing. I would think the freeper would be the one that callously SOLD Clinton Cigars. I would think the freeper would be the one that took TOTAL control of the project from the MANY activists who had been working it. I would think the Freeper would be the one who REPEATEDLY misrepresented the facts and the shielded the project from other known liberals. I would think the freeper would be the one who advised others not to file a qui tam lawsuit then FILED ONE HERSELF.

So please refrain from calling anyone names unless you know all the facts. I WATCHED DU write that book for her.

[Kelvin Mace]

114. Clarification

I would think the freeper would be the one who advised others not to file a qui tam lawsuit then FILED ONE HERSELF.

She just didn't advise other people not to file qui tams, she falsely accused other people of doing so and publicly VILLIFIED them. When she was remined of this fact in July, she CATEGORICALLY DENIED ever accusing anyone and dared people to prove she did. When BURIED with said proof, she then sulked and said she was not going to post on DU anymore, but came back and used DU to raise money for her "foundation" (which according to an email she sent me, she is the only salaried employee of).

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[carolinalady]

133. regarding the salaried employee issue----

We will know soon enough exactly how much money has been donated and exactly how much she is paying herself. I did some research today on her 501(c)3 and found a web site called Guide Star. I was able to get her EIN number. It looks like she got her IRS classification this year so the tax records are not yet available, but they will be after she files this year. This is a free website to use and you can check any charity's financials. I will be curious to see the report.

[AntiFascist]

172. Maybe she does draw a large salary....

but I suspect that she has an interest in the movie that is about to be released and which probably owns the copyright to the video that everyone is screaming about. From what is posted on the web, it looks a bit like F911, but not quite as dramatic.

[Maddy McCall]

181. What I have suspected all along is that...

she took donations from people supporting BBV efforts, and then did the "activism" part, which will then be used in the documentary.

So basically it appears that the 501c3 is propping up the profitable business. They are disconnected on paper, but only on paper.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

330. If that is the case she should consider running for office as a

Republican.

:)

[Maddy McCall]

355. It wouldn't be that far fetched for her to do so as a Republican.

She's an opportunist of the nth degree. You've heard about her hocking those "Clinton Cigars" during the impeachment for five dollars each?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

455. I didn't know about it until I read it a couple of days ago here.

It appears I didn't know alot of things until a couple of days ago. I feel like a putz on so many levels. The Clinton Cigars were just vulgar, the whole thing makes me ill.

[high density]

503. I agree, it's about a movie or video rights

I think she figures that she has at least a movie on the scale of "Outfoxed" on her hands. This was made clear by the fact that Votergate.tv uploaded a film to Archive.org, and then it was removed after "rights" issues appeared. Now Votergate.tv is hosting the film through other websites that do not require the video to be in the public domain. The fact that Harris mentioned that two or more different entities are fighting about various videos, plus the entire MSNBC ordeal, makes me think that her main motivation here is to cash out the video to the highest bidder. If she didn't care about the money, the raw video would have been released already. (Of course there's always the possibility that the video simply does not exist or is not worth the tape it was recorded on.)

[Kelvin Mace]

174. As will many people

Given what she cost me in lost revenue and legal fees.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

134. Ahh...but it's all in the archives of DU

And she can't delete that. Evidence is there of her qui tam craziness.

[Stand and Fight]

164. Thank you!

After reviewing the archives I could not agree with you more!

[AmyCrat]

77. you should be banned from using the work "freeper" n/t

[Maddy McCall]

93. Or just the first part of the sentence.

How many times has he done this. ON every single post in which people agree with him, he calls us freepers, as does all of the others who have flooded DU in the past couple of days.

I guess that was the marching orders they were given. Disarm any attacks agains the Bev by replying that if you disagree, you must be a freeper or a "repuke."

[LoZoccolo]

100. Thing is, with repetition...

...it just becomes more and more of a joke.

What's funny is it seems that I almost always disagree strongly with someone who has to go around making those accusations to try to protect their delicate opinion.

[Maddy McCall]

116. The problem is, there is no opinion of theirs to disagree with.

They just spout the same things over and over, and when you point out their errors, they revert to calling you freepers.

I would have loved to have had true, intelligent dialog with anyone on "her side" over this, but there was no way. I tried to point out that she didn't "serve papers" on LePore, because it was just a "courtesy copy" that she handed LePore, that she did it for attention, because LePore had already been served. The real legal service had happened that morning at LePore's office and attorney.

I would have loved to have heard someone justify a different opinion on the matter. Instead, they attacked me with the most outrageous insults. They didn't level-headedly discuss the point I had made; they didn't offer any real defense of her position.

Instead, they called me a "mad cow," a "freeper," a "Rove operative," and a "Repuke." Then they attempted to create a flame war to get the thread shut, which they did, before Skinner and Earl realized the context in which all of this had happened. Funny how truth has a way of emerging, given a couple of days.

[Sperk]

717. So if the LePlore thing was just a PR stunt....so what....I hope you

don't get offended, I'm just trying to understand this. I'm talking just specifically about the Leplore thing now...if she was showboating, why is that so bad? It seems like that Repugs are killing us with their PR stunts...God knows they're not getting votes on the issues.

I think the Dem party has had the smarter and more professional people for a long time....and were getting killed...why? Maybe Bev isn't the answer but we sure do need to start shaking things up a little.

And to tell you the truth....It make take a back-stabber (if she is one) to get to these people (Repugs). I think the biggest weakness the Dems have had is that they think they have "opponents", but with this group, they have "enemies" and they better come to grips with that.

[Stand and Fight]

169. I did, I did -- even if in private messages.

Your posts actually caused me to give vent to my own reservations via private messages to you. Upon thoroughly researching the archives there was only one logical conclusion to make. I strongly feel that the admin has made the best decision.

If this recount effort does not work -- in our favor -- I am going to lobby the people here to lobby their congressional representatives to push for impeachment of Bush and company. I started to mention it yesterday in a thread, but backed off as it occurred to me that it would only serve to deflect from our current ongoing efforts. I just have to be patient and hope that just is served -- preferably before the chimp is out of office. I don't want to be one who takes away from the current strategy, and I most definitely don't want to be deemed a "FReeper" by anyone.

[Maddy McCall]

82. But has she been honest?

DU hasn't piled on Bev because she doesn't kiss up. Everyone here gave her many chances. But when we saw the way she not only alientated BUT ATTACKED the people who were instrumental in doing the research and writing the chapters of "her" book, we understood what she was doing.

If bev didn't want this announcement made during this "crucial time," (and if you know anything about her, you know that everytime suspicion is raised about her methods and her objectives, she develops a crisis) then she shouldn't have come on DU and ignored the rules that DU admin had laid out for her.

People who are fans of Olbermann are not freepers. How dare you? Just because we don't share your point of view does not make us freepers...do you realize you are calling the very founding members of DU freepers? You have a lot of gall.

So that's the way you are going to sum it up...We are being manipulated by Rove. LOL! Actually, DUers are NOT easily manipulated. Bev's tombstone demonstrates that, doesn't it.

Kudos to DU admin, who, through the years, have weathered much bigger storms than Bev. DU's still here. Will BBV.org still be around in six months? I think not.

:toast:

[cry baby]

88. I like KO and I'm not a freeper

I've followed Bev and BBV for a while and donated to her cause. Why can't you see that there are those of us that want BOTH to survive?

[regularjoe]

157. I second that! I wish the best for all involved.

[crispini]

94. Boy, Ducks, I'd be very interested to hear, why, exactly,

you are completely, 100%, always in Bev's court? When there are threads here on DU showing Bev's inability to approach difficulties in a reasonable manner, and NUMEROUS long-time reputable posters who have stories to relate that jibe with the behavior above.

Seriously. You don't seem to be very objective to me. What is your substantive evidence for your faith that Bev is behaving appropriately, and ALL of the people who have interacted with her and are attesting to her difficulty to work with are not?

[HeyManThatsCool]

259. It reminds me of GWB

and how people blindly follow him even though in their hearts they know he is (a) WRONG and (b) NOT SMART

Just because Beverly claimed she had proof of fraud doesn't make it so. Just because Bush told America that he had to stay president or we wouldn't be safe didn't make it so.

Sad to say that alot of people do things to further their careers, their profiles. They enjoy the adulation. I believe Beverly falls into that category.

And frankly, if she realy has any evidence- she will be busting her hump to get it out there now that she has lost almost all credibility

[IAMREALITY]

106. Wooohooooooo Keith!

Let's go K O !!!

Olbermann, You Rock man, Keep up the great work in your objectivity!!!!!!!

:yourock:

[mzmolly]

Olbermann was fired from Faux for not spouting RW BS. I'll take Mr. O

over the primadonna Ms. Harris any day ... if I have to choose.

I wish Bev well, but the way she's treated people here, and handled this situation does not deserve respect.

[IStriker]

401. Olbermann worked for Fox? Ewwwwwwww! When was that?

I never knew he worked there but my cable only got Fox about 2 yrs. ago and I'm sorry I have to pay for it since I never look at it. UGH! I remember him from ESPN hockey and never knew what happened to him when they fired him.

[m berst]

279. can you see where this would lead?

"...the freepers who followed Keith O. lead..."

What you are saying is that there is only one possible position for a person to take on an issue, or the person will be accused of being on the side of evil. People with the solid credibility of decades of liberal activism as well as thousands of intelligent, detailed and passionate posts on liberal and progressive positions here have been maligned and smeared simply because they raised questions about things that public figures, such as Harris, were doing. Many of the most aggressive people who then piled on to "accuse the accusers" had little in the way of credentials or a track record themselves.

So I am not telling you that you are too paranoid, rather perhaps you are not paranoid enough. The issue here, though, is not whether one should be suspicious or complacent, aggressive or passive, rather it is one of how we manage suspicion in such a way that innocent people don't get destroyed and so that the community doesn't get ripped apart and thus weakened. See what I mean?

And then, by extension, DU gets smeared with the same suspicions.

"Its' too bad DU seems to be playing into the hands of the MSM, bushco, and the freepers at this time."

Can you see how suspicion can grow and grow until it destroys everyone? Can you see how that resultant climate of acrimony and suspicion is the thing that most plays into the hands of the opposition?

[Chili]

523. m berst...

I just wanted to say that I've been sorta following this from a distance since it blew up yesterday (the day before?), and your posts are some of the most reasonable, rational, even-handed posts of the bunch.

Great post.

[m berst]

526. thanks Chili

Thanks for the kind words. There have been some amazing battles the last few days here. They seem to follow the same script - true believers; a bunch of aggressive cheerleaders with one liners; intolerance of any skepticism; innocent people sucked into one "side" or the other; accusations and innuendo; suspicion and hostility - all circling around these complex and problematic "research" efforts that someone is supposedly suppressing.

- Mike

[genius]

679. Good post, Ducks in a Row.

And I think we should be allowed to call freepers freepers. We all know they are here. It's no secret. We cannot allow their squabbles with those standing up for democracy to result in a loss of good leaders. When that happens, democracy loses and the bad guys win.

[IAMREALITY]

682. On The FlipSide

"We cannot allow their squabbles with those standing up for democracy to result in a loss of good leaders. When that happens, democracy loses and the bad guys win."

Nor can we allow our LEADERS to act in irresponsible, threatning, self-serving, inappropriate, immature, obnoxious and arrogant ways. For that too can hurt our efforts and help the bad guys win.

[Maddy McCall]

693. Good leaders are productive. They get RESULTS

The best leaders know their weaknesses and delegate authority to others who are better suited for particular facets of activism. Sometimes they are the ones behind the scenes who receive absolutely no acclaim.

Good leaders don't hog the spotlight and push others who have authentic interest away. They don't allow their personal flaws to sink the interest of the greater good.

Now, you tell me, how has Bev Harris demonstrated that she is a good leader?

[IAMREALITY]

700. Maddy, I agree with you COMPLETELY

Did you respond to the wrong post maybe?

:)

[Maddy McCall]

704. Yes, indeed I did. I was responding to Ducks

Thanks for pointing that out. :-)

[Walt Starr]

709. The best leaders NEVER take credit

They ALWAYS insure those who have been delegated the real work get all of the credit!

[Broken Acorn]

66. Good bye and Good Riddance to Bev

I fully support DU's decision and professional way of handling this situation. Unfortunately, some people just never learn :(

[HEAVYHEART]

74. I was thinking..

EarlG, how about anchoring this thread so that it remains at the top of the pile? Just for a day or so. I commend you for this statement and I think everybody should see this. We all know how threads get buried very quickly on this forum.

Just a suggestion. My hat's off to you.

[HEAVYHEART]

83. Bump and kick

[glitch]

75. Hear hear! Verified Voting is too VITAL to be reduced to personalities

"From now on, we encourage all of our members to focus on discussing the verified voting issue itself, rather than the personalities involved."

There are many, many people working on the issue.

[Jersey Devil]

76. Some people simply do not have the capacity to communicate with others

From what I have seen Bev is a pretty good investigator and has done a lot of hard work, slogging through thousands, maybe millions of pages of highly technical information to bring computerized voting to the forefront as an issue. Frankly though, with her limited staff and resources I doubt she could take it beyond that and have the capacity to investigate elections as they happen without a great expansion of her efforts, manpower and money.

From what I understand she has had many offers of personal services from DUers to accomplish that but due to her desire to remain in complete control of BBV she has rebuffed all offers and in some cases even expelled those who were already on the BBV staff when their levels of influence exceeded that which she was willing to personally accept.

My only personal experience with her was a few weeks back when she was haranging DUers who were just trying to help her with threats about suing them over the use of the term "Cleanup Crew" which I frankly doubt could possibily be trademarked or copyrighted since it is such a generic term.

Reading all the posts by those who have interacted with her in the past over the past few days just reinforced my impressions and then when I read that she basically bombed KO with abusive and threatening calls and mail and now your post explaining that DU was subjected to basically the same thing I think you had no real choice and want to commend you for an almost infinite amount of patience in your actions.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

89. She Threatened to Sue Over "Cleanup Crew"?!?

What a fucking joke.

DTH

[Jersey Devil]

117. Yes, there are still several threads on it in the Voting Issues forum

and Skinner posted about it somewhere though I cannot recall where, stating that she had also threatened to sue DU over the term's use by posters, attempting to get DU to police the posts and delete or lock any that used the term.

I asked her a few questions about it (I am a lawyer but not a patent lawyer), since there are no TM or copyright designations of any kind that I could see on her website and her responses were, imo, clipped, arrogant and dismissive.

[Faun Otter]

211. Here's the specifics on the trademark

Searching trademark ownership can be done at this site:

http://www.uspto.gov/

I think the term as used was more likely to qualify as a service-mark since there is no tangible object to mark. As I read it, Bev claims "Clean Up Crew" or some arrangement of that term including the letters BBV, is a trademark belonging to her. If it is pending, a record might not show up but the US Patent and Trademark Office report that...

Word Mark
CLEAN UP CREW

Goods and Services
IC 003. US 052. G & S: Hand Soap and Hand Cleaner and Skin Cleanser. FIRST USE: 19820300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820300

Registration Number
1280383

Registration Date
June 5, 1984

Owner
(REGISTRANT) Huntington Laboratories, Inc. CORPORATION INDIANA 968 E. Tipton St. Huntington INDIANA 46750

(LAST LISTED OWNER) Ecolab Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 370 Wabasha Street N St. Paul MINNESOTA 55102

While I may not trust certain parts of our government, I think the PTO records are probably quite good. This is strong evidence that any registration of the service mark 'Clean Up crew' is, at best, pending. It is not a registered trademark belonging to Harris.

Faun

[carolinalady]

217. From this it looks like it is quite possible that Ms. Harris may be

using someone else's trademark.

[Faun Otter]

274. It doesn't work like that

A trademark shows the origin of an item. If Bev uses the term "Clean up crew" to try to sell some sort of hand cleaner, the possible confusion as to who orignated the soap would be a problem. If I simply call a group of people a "clean Up Crew" I am not trying to pass them off as a type of hand soap from another company.

Here is a good source of basic information on trademarks, copyrights and patents (Called intellectual property as a group)
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/

Faun

[carolinalady]

276. Thanks--sorry for my ignorance. :)

[KoKo]

373. Yes....I had a big problem with her outburst on that. Thought about it

and decided she was trying to "distance herself from DU" so as to position BBVoting as "non-partisan." I figured: "Hey if Kerry and DNC/DLC can do it maybe Bev is right and she slammed us because she was afraid Drudge and Coulter crowd would immediately label her as a "Democratic Agitator with Tinfoil." So...as pissed as her really agressive, threatening, remarks were...I figured we needed all the help we could get because most of us were in shock, dead brained, crying our eyes out or in caves at that point figuring we were "left as garbage" by our candidates.

So...I said...give her a break on this. :shrug: But, I didn't spend hundreds of hours giving her info for free, I only had a brief negative encounter with her and did a little early "name search," when she was first "nosing around" about BBV. The folks who did all the computer stuff are the ones who feel stiffed and I can see why...

But, still. She put it together and "went on the road" and woke up alot of folks to what was going on. How could we all have jumped on this election without something already there to build on. :shrug:

[AmyCrat]

375. I'm no expert on this

and older-timer DU'ers can speak more to this -- but maybe you should do more research.

From what I know DU pre-exists BBV.org, and is at least a big part of the reason BBV.org got started.

[KoKo]

411. I was on DU lurking within the first five months...I've been here a long

time. Bev brought it together and got researchers on it. The earlier studies were done by professors and were just hanging out there in the "ether."

So, that's why I've been posting about this. I was here when it started and watched it progress the warts and all... I've been here 3 and 3/4 years. DU was founded on Inauguration night 2000. Or, should I say "Installation Night." :D

[AmyCrat]

413. then your statement isn't exactly correct...

"But, still. She put it together and "went on the road" and woke up alot of folks to what was going on. How could we all have jumped on this election without something already there to build on."

something wasn't already there to build on -- she built on ideas from DU.

[KoKo]

567. yes...that's what I said....she built on what DU computer code

investigators found in their research. Although Bev has said she found the GEM's code from Diebold online herself, I believe. She couldn't have figured out how hacking could occur without the DU investigators.

:shrug:

[Kelvin Mace]

576. Check this post

for a tad more on how the code was found.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=111959

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

130. Yes, it is laughable. She claimed a phrase in the common lexicon was...

HER trade name, which is utter bullshit.

[Kelvin Mace]

167. It was "BBV Clean Up Crew"

and she didn't "own" BBV.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

183. It's so transparent, isn't it? She wasn't worried about protecting her...

"trade name." She was trying to silence a groundswell at DU that was actually getting something done in election fraud investigations. She was afraid that they were about to steal her thunder, so she threw a roadblock up in front of some very dedicated and prolific activists.

To me, that was the beginning of the end for her, as well as the action by her that exposed what she is truly made of.

I hope that DU's Clean Up Crew will continue in their efforts and use their Clean Up Crew name again! It is THEIRS if they want it because it is a common lexicon terminology.

If Bev were truly concerned about the fraud, over her desires for self-promotion and enriching her pocketbook, she would have applauded any efforts DUers were undertaking on the same issue she PRETENDS to care so much about.

That one episode showed me that Bev is in this for Bev, and Bev only.

[Ladyhawk]

444. Yeah, that's what made me go, "WTF?" n/t

[illuminaughty]

509. Yes, she did

And at the time I had no fucking clue that she used the term "clean up crew" on her web site.

[Shopaholic]

90. Good call

in my opinion. It's a shame it came to this but I think it was the only choice that could be made.

[SueZhope]

78. Thanks for diplomacy

Looks you you folks did your best to work things out for the bigger cause.
Sounds like you were very patient along the way, putting principles over personalities
I can imagine this being difficult decision to make

Thanks for clarifying the DU position on the situation
Im sure you did what was best for the the group.

Bev can still continue her important work

[StClone]

81. Behind the scenes things are different than they appear

All her reports of being hacked and fearing for her safety had me thinking her a Grassroots fire brand pushing for our cause.

EarlG's enlightening posts is welcome if not dispiriting. Bev may have pushed the envelope in several areas of BBV investigation while testing DU as an online community. Bev can still make a contribution and she already has. This information sure lends credence to the attacks she received here and at BartCop Forum.

I hoped it was not the case but she may need to be marginalized for our protection. I wish her the best.

[Ladyhawk]

445. I'm wondering how much of what she said is even true.

Did she get hacked? Was she threatened? Was there a media blackout? Once she started threatening to sue over a silly phrase she claimed as her own, I started thinking we were being led on.

[AmyCrat]

448. crossed my mind earlier today...

not being led on, but how much "media blackout" has to do with her. Now, I don't for one minute think ALL of it is her, and I can't say if it's a substantial part of it, but with what has transpired over the last 48 hours, I couldn't help but think "if she deals with people like this all the time it's no wonder no one will put her on air".

It's all very sad, no matter how you slice it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

84. With Regret, I Agree

I support the DU Admin. in their decision. It is time for Bev to stop sowing rancor and start producing results beyond publicity stunts. I could not agree more completely with the sentiment that it is critical that the issue of vote fraud move forward on a broad front and that more efforts by other people and groups are supported.

I wish Bev luck and I hope she does have the smoking gun, but the DU moderators don't have to pay the price for her odd behavior.

"Hence it comes about that all armed prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed prophets have been destroyed."

Niccolo Machiavelli

[Donailin]

322. See that's the thing, though

If she DOES discover the smoking gun, what support will she get from this place?

That's why I, an impartial observer who only heard of Bev on Nov. 3rd and who has posted here only since the 8th or 9th just hoping and praying and emailing and donating to anything that looks promising can say with all clarity that the infighting can come back to bite everyone in the ass.

An as an aside, all the folks here who bash Bev's ego while simultaneously spouting off to "newbies" proclaiming how their 1000 plus posts give them some kind of authoratative credibility is just bunk. All it demonstrates is that you spend most of your time in this biased exclusive forum. I have over half a million posts over the course of ten years in multiple forums from religion to politics to science and beyond. What that makes me is well rounded and able to see what you folks in this bubble of yours cannot seem to conceive:

NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES. It may may you feel vindicated and self important at the time, but it is UNWISE.

[Name removed]

326. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donailin]

334. We're all hypocrites, that's not the point

The point of my post which you FAIL to address is this:

What if BEV FINDS THE SMOKING GUN????

Or are you now going to hope she doesn't?

Or if she does will you cut off your nose to spite your face??

You just don't get it.

Burn away Baby. . . :-)

[AmyCrat]

336. No YOU don't get it

What good does it do for her to find the smoking gun if she's seen as a loon who can't control her temper?

I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics.

[Donailin]

351. This is nuts:

"What good does it do for her to find the smoking gun if she's seen as a loon who can't control her temper?

I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics."

::::blinking rubbing me eyes, am I reading this correctly??:::::

So it's okay if she finds it--the proof that Bush stole the election and perp walks are televised while Bush goes down in shame and is replaced by our rightfully elected candidate-- so long as BEV HARRIS learns a lesson in the process?? The result of Democracy being restored to the American People would be secondary to Bev's education?


O man. You can't possibly be serious.

[AmyCrat]

354. has nothing to do with learning a lesson

Read it AGAIN

"I HOPE she finds it AND learns to control her unreasonable side.

I hope she doesn't find it if it will discredit all the work she (and others) have done because she can't contain childish (hate that word) antics."

If she finds it but no one will LOOK at it or recognize it or tell anyone else about it or listen to her case (because she DOESN'T adjust her behavior and they think she's a nut), what GOOD does it do? NONE. It won't have any impact on anyone or anything except for a handful of people who know about it.

[Walt Starr]

338. Honestly, I don't believe she will ever find a smoking gun

If one is ever found, it will be an activist in it for the principle instead of the money.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

524. she said she has it !!!

Several times !!

The boy who cried wolf.

She is the one who told us it was OK to use the F word.

Last night on Mike Web he asked her point blank.

"Do you smell Fraud in OH, FL, Washington, or ANY other state."

She said...

"I think there are activities consistent with it in varying degrees."

WTF


Is that the same as weapons of mass destruction program related activities?

[yardwork]

344. This is the best-moderated site I've seen, and I too have thousands

of posts on dozens of sites ranging over many topics.

The admins and mods here at DU are very thoughtful and evenhanded, and they do a wonderful job herding all 60,000 of us cats, plus the dozen or so deliberate disruptors who are here at any given time.

I don't know all the details of this case, but I've been here long enough to see some very petulant and unhelpful behavior. The admins did what they had to do in this instance.

As for random DUers who say silly and unwelcoming things, well, in any group of this size you are going to run into folks who are having a bad day, don't get along well with others, etc.

I welcome you to DU and hope that you will stay with us!

[Maddy McCall]

410. She's been one step from "finding the smoking gun" for months...

she keeps getting close to the smoking gun, and donations peak. See the pattern?

[unfrigginreal]

548. Make that years

She supposedly had the smoking gun from the 2002 elections but I guess she needed to keep it hidden to 'further the cause.'

[Kelvin Mace]

412. Impartial observer?

If she DOES discover the smoking gun, what support will she get from this place?

If her evidence is TRUTHFUL, she'll make the Late Breaking News forum like every other story.

An as an aside, all the folks here who bash Bev's ego while simultaneously spouting off to "newbies" proclaiming how their 1000 plus posts give them some kind of authoritative credibility is just bunk

It gives many of us credibility because:

1) We been here longer and have seen the woman in action attacking her own allies.

2) Some of us, such as myself, have known her longer than you, and are VERY acquainted with her tantrums (and have the scars to prove it.

3) We are all a little suspicious of newly minted users who all seem to be posting in Bev's defense.

NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES. It may may you feel vindicated and self important at the time, but it is UNWISE.

LOL!!!! Absolutely correct! Now, will you tell Bev, or shall I?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[T Town Jake]

428. "biased exclusive forum" - sheer nonsense...

...Perhaps you haven't been paying attention (sycophants rarely do when it comes to criticism of their heroes) but if you'd bothered to read through the thread you might have discovered that your messiah was given to bouts of online splenetic rage, repeated false accusations directed towards others, and juvenile temper tantrums. The Admins bent over backward to give her a fair shake, and for their trouble all they got was more horseshit shoveled their direction at nearly every turn. Enough was finally enough. Go peddle your fairy tale someplace else.

[Kelvin Mace]

478. My word for the day

"splenetic"

Cool.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AmyCrat]

479. Of or relating to the spleen?

or I assume you mean definition #2 -- LOL :D

Dictionary.com

1. Of or relating to the spleen.
2. Affected or marked by ill humor or irritability.

[WyLoochka]

85. Sorry for you guys

Earl, Elad and Skinner that it had to come to this. Sorry for Bev too that she just had to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she simply cannot control her wild imagination or her temper. Hope she gets some professional help. She's her own worst enemy.

Pretty sad day, but you did the right thing. Thanks, Guys.

[HEAVYHEART]

95. Ok

Let me show my stupidity. I heard that Bev Harris is Bush's cousin. Is this true?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

122. I don't think so.

There is another Duer who is a distant cousin of Bush - LynneSin, I believe?

[AmyCrat]

129. ever see this site?

http://www.bushrelativesforkerry.com/

Some relatives of Bush (cousins)

(Bev isn't part of this)

[HEAVYHEART]

160. Thanks for the link.

I didn't see any names of Bush's cousins on there. Just some links.

[HEAVYHEART]

159. Thanks for responding. I appreciate it.

I guess my post really was a stupid one since no one else responded! lol.

[Kelvin Mace]

168. LOL Now tha's a NEW one.

[Straight Shooter]

97. The same scenario engulfed the founder of MADD

A very good cause, but somewhere along the way she confused her personal agenda with the agenda of the organization, and became somewhat of a prima donna. MADD eventually replaced her.

It's a double-edged sword. I hope Bev can stand back from herself, view the situation objectively, and move forward with a perspective which will benefit democracy. She is extremely talented and bright and has done all of us a tremendous service.

That being said, I feel a cloud has been lifted from DU. Thank you, Earl. Very fair and balanced summary :)

[intelle]

206. Nice post, Straight Shooter

I am a newbie, and, while I believe I have a fairly good handle on the Bev/DU connection (read archives and recent posts), I have been wondering what went wrong with Bev. She IS obviously bright, and she has done much good.

I, too, hope that Bev will "stand back from herself"...maybe this will be all that is needed for her to make some professional decisions to further her work.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I hope so.

[bunny planet]

98. this deserves a

Kick!:kick:

[TruthIsAll]

99. BEV IS NOT PERFECT. NO ONE IS. BUT SHE HAS DONE A LOT MORE GOOD THAN BAD.

No one is perfect. She may be a little hot-headed. So am I.

I am dissapointed to see this concerted effort to bring her down on DU, regardless of any disputes in the past.

HELL, I WAS BANNED ONCE ALSO. SO DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT CREDIBLE?

I GOT PISSED OFF AT ANOTHER DUER WHO WAS A TROLL. I LET HIM HAVE IT AND FOR THIS I GOT BANNED. BUT MY INTENTIONS WERE ALWAYS GOOD. BY THE WAY, THAT TROLL WAS LATER BANNED FROM DU AFTER PISSING OFF SCORES OF OTHER DUERS.

Bev has made BBV a household word.

You should all be grateful.

[LoZoccolo]

102. None of us deny that she's done a lot.

Not even the original poster of this thread.

[AmyCrat]

105. BBV Is far from a household word

Which is part of the problem.

No one denies she's done great work. It's her PR skills that are potentially HURTING the whole effort (and her OWN efforts). Good intentions aren't an excuse for unprofessional behavior.

[Pepper32]

149. Agreed. n/t

[saracat]

154. Once again. I agree.

Terrible PR skills. But having read her reply this morning to the film crew person, I think there is something else going on. How do you forget such a meeting? And then recall another one when pressed? Very weird. I wouldn't give her a dime. I haven't but I directed some of my wealthier friends to. They gave as a result of the results of the election and not knowing where to turn. I am beginning to think she may have preyed on our desperation.

BTW, Thanx for locating and posting that thread!

[intelle]

210. Saracat...I agree...n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

109. So is Bev's Accountant

It's like closing time at a bar.
"You don't have to go home Bev, You just can't stay here"

If Bev is truly the Moses of this issue, let her cast her rod toward heaven and bring forth manna or strike the rock and bring forth water. According to her, she, ultimately, is the one that doesn't need DU and she has acted accordingly. Her work is not diminished one iota by being banned from DU. Her fund raising might take a hit, but in the end her much talked about "trash bag" and "poll tape" evidence will speak for itself. I wish her luck!!!!

[Maddy McCall]

111. Lovely analogy

:-)

[Stand and Fight]

186. Horrible analogy.

Bev Harris, while many things, is no where near the greatness of Moses to even invite even a comparitive analogy. Not one single iota near enough to be compared with those in history who have trumpeted transparency in freedom and put their own desires, egos, and ambitions aside for the greater good. I see no indication whatsoever of that here. There are such things as shameless self-promoters who do so without ever actually verbalizing it. Actions can speak louder than words, but actions speak infinitely louder when accompanied by harsh and irrational words.

[IAMREALITY]

193. I agree

The way I have seen (from Bev's posts and elsewhere) Bev talk to people, especially those that disagree, is completely the wrong way to present yourself when you are representing something as important as she is. Some can say 'ahhh, but look who she's dealing with, she has the right to be frustrated blah blah', well I say bullshit, she Does NOT. To show how she SHOULD handle herself, I will use as analogy one of my new saints, Mr Cliff Arnebeck. Anyone who saw that C-Span video of him yesterday now can see how a REAL professional handles such issues. I was immensely impressed with his composure in handling the callers who were completely absusive. THAT is how return fire should be. Calm, Composed, On Message.

[Stand and Fight]

264. You've got it buddy!

I mean the guy was threatened by that National Guardsman and he still managed to stay composed. Frankly, I was surprised at his cool-headed collected mannerism. It barely even showed on his visage that he was bothered by the comment. He collected his thoughts and then retorted in the same manner-of-fact composure and stood his ground with in organized thought provoking way. I have TREMENDOUS respect for him, and am continually working on being able to conduct likewise; that is to say, I'd like to have as much grace under fire as Mr. Cliff Arnebeck. Especially once I jump into the political arena.

[cry baby]

113. It seems to me that we (on the whole) are grateful...

but most of these people just don't want to communicate with her in this forum anymore. I get the feeling everyone still wants her to prove her case and help America.

[Sparkle]

132. Were your particular posts banned or did you have to create another

id to get back on? And speaking of that.....Ms. Harris could do the same from a different puter.

[saracat]

141. DU apparently did more to make BBV a household word.

But BTW. Neither BBV or Bev Harris are household words and she just took a large step to ensure they will never be. I hope I am wrong but clearly her ego came first.

[KatieB]

173. Would love to see actual evidence of all this.

As someone kind of new to DU - reading your statement without any backup makes me think something else is going on...I read her bbv explanation re: KO and it did not seem wacko - it seemed quite level - they had quoted other sources and attributed it to her when they had not spoken with her.

[Stand and Fight]

189. Read the OP.

I'd also suggest you do what I did and research all of this by digging through the archives. Then you'd be able to make a more informed posting yourself after arming yourself with knowledge.

[saracat]

197. Thanks . You saved me the trouble. Sheesh , the link is right in

these threads, several times! You have to really wonder about some of these defensive newbie posters!

[Maddy McCall]

263. Do you have the search feature? True curiosity to get to the bottom of it?

Then search for yourself. If you really want to know the truth--REALLY WANT TO KNOW--go search DU.

Here's a good start for you. Now who's wacko?

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1330558
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606666
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1993788

[KoKo]

220. Saracat....you are wrong about that...and I usually agree with you, but

NOT on this one. She was here on DU and got many folks doing research for her who were desperate to get the information out that GORE WON FLORIDA. We all knew...those of us in the "early days" here on DU that that election was stolen...but we couldn't find a way to get it out to the rest of America. When Bev came on here she managed to "herd alot of cats" to coalesce with her and give their time for NO PAY...and she got David Allen of "Plan 9 Publishing" to publish her books. She had our 100% support and those of us who weren't Computer Literate did what we could to get what was accomplished by her out there. She was the first person who got many organized to work on this and she achieved a great deal of success even though those who worked with her feel used, abused, and trashed by what they feel was her "Grandstanding" and difficult personality.

I've sent Bev's stuff out to so many people who for the first time had some of the "scales" lifted off their eyes about what we were going to be faced with in all our elections after 2000. I really think when all this is out a few more years, we will realize that ALL of that "free time and abuse that was the "wind beneath Bev's Wings and Bev and Andy," were more valuable than what it looks like now.

I know the history...I just know that folks who start things that become huge in our history don't always last and are subject to attacks of "using folks" for their own enrichment. But, I still hate to see the "happy fest" of folks who want to "Stone Her."

Sorry...I just have to think she did more than Kerry/Edwards did to expose what they would be up against. The folks who follow her will hopefully be more "forthcoming" and easier to deal with and maybe will appeal to our sense of values and morality better...but she got attention in the same way Michael Moore has...and we need those folks more than we want to admit...:shrug:

[saracat]

250. I appreciate her work. I just meant DU gave her a forum.

And the people on DU contributed to make her work possible. I don't think she would have accomplished as much if anything without DU. It is such a shame that a person such as Bev who worked so diligently, as I am told, will be the one who lets her own ego topple the good she has done. No one is perfect but it is very difficult to achieve success when you never think of anything but your own ego.Sometimes you have to share a bit to get a lot. This is a perfect example of that principle. I wish her efforts well. I hope she is capable of learning a different set of people skills.

[KoKo]

273. Karl Rove and Tom DeLay's Ego seemed to have "Triumphed." I leave

my comments as they stood in my post. I understand what you say...but it isn't pragmatic enough for me..when I look at the "hounds of hell" we are up against...:shrug:

[Stand and Fight]

292. Get the word out.

No, I've talked to plenty of people -- most of which(some 90%) have no idea that Gore actually won Florida. The only reason I know is because I am a news junkie. Honestly, the knowledge of that heavily lead to me changing my political affiliation from Republican to Democrat.

[fearnobush]

690. Agreed. I sent just the BBV like to many and hundreds of new people

became informed. What the hell I'm I suppose to tell these folks now? That Bev is a Black Box carpet bagger? Either way, this really hurts any momentum that I had spreading the word. I'm tired of getting flamed by the anti Bev folks. I realize she has attitude problems and my not be as upstanding as folklore would demand, but wow, the flames from DU'ers I use to respect. WTF - it all sucks.

[Kelvin Mace]

166. She is not a *little*

hot headed. She could come across as UNHINGED.

Bev has made BBV a household word.

Bev and the legion of folks who helped her and did a *lot* of the heavy lifting for her made BBV a household word.

You should all be grateful.

And we are, and have said so. Gratitude does not extend to being Bev's door mat, though.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[KoKo]

191. I agree with you....she brought the issue forward and got "publicity" for

it. That's what she was a "publicist." Perhaps her "people skills" are lacking and she's in over her head emotionally. And, she probably is an "opportunist" which folks who are good publicists always are.

She's alienated so many folks here, that I understand why so many disliked her and felt used. However, as I said on many posts on the Bev/KO threads...we should understand that we may not like all the folks who "used DU'ers" but that we need to put that aside because getting anything over the MSM has been difficult in the past years, but almost impossible after "9/11."

I think Admins had to do what they did. Having Bev ignore the controversy surrounding her and come back and post and then trash mods was way OTT. So, I support what they did. But, I still think we need to remember that folks who get attention for causes are often folks we here on DU will always have problems with. DU seems to attract, IMHO, folks who are super patriots (not the Bush/Repug kind but more the Tom Paine/radical Founding Fathers type) and folks who have been trashed so many times by our own party that we are very sensitive to "hypocracy."

We, here, probably would never find the "perfect candidate" or "perfect anything," because we are very critical and discerning of folks motivation. We also attract a high proportion of "trolls" as we grow and who knows what they are stirring up here, they are very good at what they do, or the Chimp wouldn't be installed in the WH.

I hope Bev will go on with whatever she's doing and those who are working with her can guide her. And, I think that the other folks here who are working on media and exposing all the fraud our country has been involved with will continue.

It's sad to me this had to happen, but it's been brewing for so long that it's good it's overwith. We have other groups fighting for our vote. Bev will be one of them, but a part...and not the "center."

That's okay..but we still owe those who supported her here on DU a big debt of gratitude and the Admins and Mods, too for putting up with it all... my 2cents..:shrug:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

480. A mixed bag, like most of us

.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

525. No....YOU TIA have done EXEC LENT work.

You show everything.
You rage not gloat and smirk.
You fuk up and then fix your errors.
You Haven't Stooped.
You have explored every avenue.
You have spread the work and asked for help.
You inspire
You motivate.
You have Never asked for money ONCE
You have Never insisted on a single theory.
You have Never ridiculed others that chose a different path to investigate.


And most important.....

YOU NEVER PROMISED ANYONE ANYTHING


You are a DU Role Model

[foo_bar]

718. no one accused you of anything

SO DOES THAT MEAN I'M NOT CREDIBLE?

The issue is a pathological liar whose egocentrism obscured what grains of truth were there to begin with. Your name wasn't even mentioned.

[Walt Starr]

103. My hat goes off to the DU administrators

You took a no-win situation, evaluated the facts AS THEY APPLIED TO DU ONLY, and made the only decision you could.

Everybody has to respect that!

Kudoes!

[Sparkle]

104. Wow, I didn't realize Ms. Harris was like that.

I hope she doesn't flip the switch and turn into a rabid right winger.

[Maddy McCall]

118. Are you aware of her history?

Your fear might be well justified.

[Walt Starr]

136. Maybe she'll start selling bandaids?

You know, the ones with a purple heart on 'em?

Fits in with the Clinton cigars.

[Maddy McCall]

139. Well...

If she would have thought of it first and the money was good, she probably would have.

Why does the phrase "snake oil salesman" come to mind?

:shrug:

[ebayfool]

516. Why not, *ush is getting a book overnighted?

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=8&viewmode=threaded

"...You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.
Thanks.
Bev"

Thanks to the mods, I've been queasy @ the developements here & on the BBV site for a while now. The digs & insults directed at the DU BBV cleanup crew, DU mods, Kerry, & now Olbermann pushed my support of the table - not Du'ers or anyone else. Bev has cut her own credibility off, & seeing how she responds, by slamming or smearing the people that are working to the same goal - protecting the vote - has finished off any reservations or excuses she might have garnered from my little corner of the world. So ... how do I quit the BBV.org site (or, judging from the raving going on there - maybe just posting this will do it for me!?)?

btw - posting this thread instead of just an announcement is a good thing, allows some catharsis for the soul. TY mods.

[intelle]

213. Yup

FRom what I am seeing now, I don't think this is far-fetched.

[sepia_steel]

140. Disgusting

I'm really sad that she couldn't rise above her ego and let everyone come together and help her... this work is so important. These stunts and outbursts of hers will prevent her from being taken as seriously as she could be, and the effort needs as much help as it can get.

When you're doing important work, and someone disagrees with you or doesn't have confidence in you, you can respond in only 2 ways and still maintain your credibility: 1. Ignore it and keep working; 2. Reply calmly with facts only.

It makes me SICK that she would put any of this effort in jeopardy by letting her need to the be the Vote Fraud "it girl" get in her way.

I'm a huge supporter of what she has accomplished and is still trying to accomplish, and this situation disappoints me GREATLY, but it's obvious the DU staff had no choice, and they definitely made the right decision.

[intelle]

216. I think you have captured it

"It makes me SICK that she would put any of this effort in jeopardy by letting her need to the be the Vote Fraud "it girl" get in her way. "

Thank you.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

107. Excellent decision

I haven't posted on related threads but have followed them closely, and I support your decision. I hope it will achieve the desired result.

[Guava Jelly]

112. Thank you

I was getting sick of her DU fundraising.or should i say having DU finance her lil movie.
Florida was stolen AGAIN!!..Bev was only cashing in on it.
I am behind you 1000000000000000000000%

[DubyaSux]

115. Bev who?

...oh...yeah. Whats-her-face.

[OneBlueSky]

123. I don't know enough about what's happened to comment, but . . .

I trust the judgement of EarlG, Skinner and Elad . . . running a discussion site with 50-odd thousand participants has to be an incredible pain in the ass, but they continually manage to do it with integrity and class . . . I know Bev can be caustic, and I hope she steps back a bit and realizes that she can be her own worst enemy . . . maybe she needs someone to be the public face of BBV while she continues with the grunt work . . . anyhow, I'll miss her posts, but I trust that this decision was not made lightly, and I can always follow her work on her own site . . . it's all good . . .

[Truman01]

125. It is not a secret that I have been very skeptical of Bev,

After reading your reaction and your actions concerning her I would like to offer my congratulations on your restraint and your support of a difficult person and situation for the sake of the cause of verified voting.


TC

[geo]

127. Just a thought or two for the moderators....

Hi all,

I don't know Bev Harris personally, but I do know what it feels like to fight with government employees intent on distorting rules to their own ends. I have currently a CPRA request with a community college over fraudulent fee expenditures that has been outstanding for a two months as of Dec. 5th. I have had to deal with attorneys and all kinds of nonsense too. This is my point.

Bev is likely stressed to the max, disheartened at the fact she couldn't stop the fraud from happening, etc. Yes, she does seem like she likes to have full control of her environments, and maybe she needs to recognize how sometimes the cooperation is more important. I have been given the same feedback in my own life time to time.

Given the "better behavior" Bev has displayed on the boards up until the last day or so, during which she was examined thoroughly though forum discussion, the "ban" should be a suspension, and nothing more. I am a little concerned that we would ban her even under these circumstances.

We all saw how active the discussion was about Bev since Kieth Obermann made his observations. I myself posted a thread to consolidate the posts when I first started seeing threads pop up every five minutes. I gave up when I saw the trend was not going to stop. Eventually our fine DU moderators came in and calmed things down to a mild simmer. We should all understand that from a personal perspective, watching your name get tossed around so often can be nerve wracking. Bev may have been a little active with the alert button, but if you weigh it against all the chatter, was it justifiable to a degree? Was it at least understandable?

I, like many of you that post here, do get discouraged when we hear Bev sound so litigious with people that are on roughly the same side. We don't like to hear that she has allegedly been difficult to transact with. Personally, I prefer to use statements like "take the necessary steps," "pursue other alternatives," "begin to research my options," etc. when trying to tell someone they are risking being sued. It is normally enough to tell someone they aren't right for X-reason and then get a little firm with them. Also, when you have been pushed to the brink, never say you will litigate, just do it. The word sue is so dirty in our language it is like swearing at someone. Using the word litigate, or even in heated moments "let's sere what a judge thinks" is way better than saying "I am so gonna sue you." If this is in fact how Bev Harris handles things, then maybe she just needs some warm, caring feedback on how she can communicate these thoughts less offensively.

Please folks and especially moderators. We are a community. Sometimes members of this community are a little tough on the nerves, but that does not mean that they do not have the capacity to learn. I will stop short of telling DU how to run this amazing little web community, but will offer strong feedback regarding the banning of members. I personally do not like seeing this happen, especially with players so obviously on this side of the machine issue. I see no reason to exceed suspensions for anyone, let alone Bev Harris. Even all those little punks that run through here and scream "bush won f-in deal with it" should be allowed back in time.

The goal is to be as inviting as possible while still maintaining order. Order can be maintained with time-outs. :)

Warmly,

George

[Walt Starr]

131. Just a point

This was Ms. Harris's second chance. She had been banned once before and allowed back.

Are you suggesting the DU administration should give a third chance?

[Donailin]

275. some prophet once said:

"seventy times seven. . . "

[Kelvin Mace]

278. I try not to forgive people until they at LEAST stop smiting me.

[Eloriel]

346. It's not a question of forgiveness -- not even close

David Allen put it well: doesn't mean you have to be Bev's doormat.

She's done good work; we all applaud that and MANY people have contributed, either financially or in research and other free services for "the cause" or both. She goes off half-cocked and can be a loose cannon; okay, so none of us is perfect. She can use people (and their talents) without proper credit or thanks and appreciation; for some of us what we offered was for the effort anyway, not the glory.

But THOSE small human failings (and several others) are not the issue either.

I've mostly stayed out of this latest spate of threads, reading just one of the SIX "discuss Bev Harris and K.O. here" threads started by Admin. In that thread was one post that affected me deeply. I think it was by Wiley57 (???), and he was beside himself because someone local to him whom he'd worked very hard to cultivate on this issue happened to call Bev within the last day or so, actually got through to her, and got totally reamed out for his trouble. Wiley was distraught that this hard-won new local computerized voting issue activist was treated that way and that he might be lost as a co-activist as a result. I felt so sorry for Wiley (if that's who the poster was), and also for the poor new activist who was so unlucky as to actually reach Bev on the phone.

His retelling of that experience brought back some unpleasant memories for me. I myself was treated precisely that way twice by Bev (and made it my business to make sure it NEVER happened again), and Roxanne and David and Alistair (althecat) and no doubt others ALL received precisely that kind of abusive treatment from Bev as well. In the case of the others, because of the urgency and importance of this issue, they took it and took it far longer than I was willing to.

This is also the type of treatment that apparently one of K.O.'s producers received at her hands (or mouth). The threats of lawsuits and overuse of alerts Earl mentioned seems to be part of the same abusive pattern as well.

These are not examples of a personality quirk, a minor flaw, a foible, something to overlook and tolerate "for the good of the cause." That's not possible for emotionally healthy people to do -- healthy people ISOLATE themselves from people who abuse them. Period. You might take it for a while, but there comes a point when you realize that THIS IS NOT HEALTHY PERSON TREATING YOU THIS WAY and it's not healthy to ALLOW yourself to be in a position to BE treated that way.

Being lied about publicly (i.e., here at DU), as several of us were (as well as several other prominent members of the movement who are not part of DU) -- without either retraction or apology to this day! -- is another part of her particular pattern of abuse or perhaps paranoia or who knows what? But it IS a pattern, and I share the same sentiment as another poster upthread who said s/he hopes Bev gets some professional help.

No one I know of doubts her talent, her commitment and zeal and passion or even her body of work to any great extent (so well supported by DU and DUers, as EarlG pointed out). We just all reached a point -- individually reached decisions, all -- that we can't work with her, can't let her near us, can't give her opportunities to continue to treat us abusively, and can't let any lies about us stand unchallenged.

I'm saddened by this development (I've been away all afternoon), including the banning -- but I support the decision whole-heartedly and add my thanks and congratulations to Admin for their forebearance, wisdom and good judgment.

And for anyone who doubts it, there are MANY people and MANY organizations who are working very hard on this issue -- it's NOT owned by Bev Harris at all. All of the others I'm familiar with also have much better credibility at this point anyway, tho may be somewhat less visible.

[cry baby]

429. Thank you for mentioning that there are many others

working on this very important issue. I'm feeling a little better.

[Maddy McCall]

138. LOL! Your whole premise is flawed.

Given the "better behavior" Bev has displayed on the boards up until the last day or so


LOL! Again, you need to go spend a couple of hours in the DU archives. Her obnoxious behavior began two years ago, not two weeks ago.

[Stand and Fight]

194. Listen to Maddy...

Trust me -- spending some time in the archives researching was an eye opening experience in regards to this issue.

[saracat]

155. Delete Dupe

[saracat]

156. Apparently not. The "time out" didn't work.

And she is not a child but an adult who must face the consequences of her unprofessional behaviour. DU also has an obligation to protect its own credibility and the interests of its membership .

[smartvoter]

158. Already a second chance, and KO is reporting the same behavior.

Doesn't look good.

[anamandujano]

207. Thanks geo--"stressed to the max" was my first thought.

She has known for a long time her work would make her a prime target. Frayed nerves, paranoia and in-your-face behavior go with the territory. I haven't invested the time and energy that many DUers have in Bev Harris and totally support administrative decisions. Just asking people to keep in mind that she is under attack from all sides and her work is still important.

[intelle]

229. You are fairly new (as am I)

I think it might be wise to look at the history here. You were not around for most of it.

[intelle]

230. Another thought:

"The goal is to be as inviting as possible while still maintaining order. Order can be maintained with time-outs"

What, are we a community of pre-schoolers? Come on, Geo, time out?

I think that the DU moderators were very, very patient given the nature of the work. But, there is a limit, and it is not unreasonable to expect posters to this community forum to behave like adults.

[americanstranger]

128. Strong move, EarlG.

It had to be done, as harm was being done to DU by the situation.

Facile navigation through a difficult situation. Cheers to all of you. Hopefully, those who have had their reputations sullied by this situation can now get them back. One can hope.

-as

[davidinalameda]

142. great reply

thanks Earl for posting this

[Rainbowreflect]

143. Thank you for letting us know what & why.

[Old and In the Way]

145. Had to be done.

Whatta shame, though.

[thinkingwoman]

146. thanks for posting this explanation

As someone who comes into DU erratically, I was totally baffled about this conflict.

I appreciate knowing what really happened and all the efforts you and your colleagues put into keeping this website running so smoothly.

Thanks again.

[propagandafreegal]

147. I didn't realize the the history........... thanks for sharing nm

[Stand and Fight]

151. Well said!

A very diplomatic stance and one supported by keen logic. I'll simply state a quote from one of my favorite shows:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

-- Commander Spock, Star Trek

[On the Road]

162. The Legal Threats Make it Very Difficult for DU

and I appreciate the mods' quandary.

I've tried to criticize Bev's PR effort independently of the value of her research. I would hope that BBV can improve based on constructive criticism, or if not that someone else can pick up the issue.

[DancingBear]

165. Very well stated, EarlG

As someone who supports the work Bev is doing (and, by proxy, Bev herself) I found myself with a whole new set of issues to digest upon reading the summary contained within your post.

All I can say is that every response you (as admins) have made during my stay here have been reasoned, rational, and well thought out. I see no reason to change my opinion at this time.

Thank you for taking the time to let us all know the reasons. For me, especially, it was an eye-opener.

I do have one question, however. Will Andy (god, b & c to the old-timers) still be posting here if he desires, or is the ban on BBV in its entirety?

I will continue to monitor BBV and wish it success beyond it's wildest dreams, and I hope great things come from both BBV and the other wonderful organizations who are doing what needs to be done.

Until democracy returns at the voting box,

DB

[Mick Knox]

170. More patience than she deserved

Good job once again to the admins.

[KatieB]

171. DO NOT BAN BEV

Just now when critical mass appears to have been met to draw national attention to the e-voting machine fraud, you are banning Bev?
Seems silly.

[Maddy McCall]

175. It's already done. But, don't you think you need to question that...

every time Bev paints herself into a corner, pisses off people who have been her advocates, and endangers her cause and her flow of money, a new crisis emerges?

Bev creates crises to continue donations.

[KatieB]

195. Is someone trying to discredit her work with this personality focus?

Her work has brought national attention to the issue of voting machine fraud. Our vote does not exist if the corruption tied to these machines is not exposed. Don't fall into this con to make this a personality issue. Oldest trick in the book. Discredit the work by discrediting the source.

[Maddy McCall]

196. Can't you see that if the personality gets in the way of the work...

...then the personality *IS* the problem, as has proven true numerous times and in her intereactions with numerous people in this situation. BEV IS NOT BBV, as much as she wants to be exculsively identified with the movement.

The cause is noble, but the person who claims to be leading it is NOT.

[KoKo]

284. Many folks feel Michael Moore's "Personality" gets in the way of His Work!

How are we to know down the line which is most important? I like to think that the folks "behind the ego's" triumph in the end, but without the "ego's" where would we be? I'm a researcher. I don't have the ability to go on Stump Speeches and Push Myself and what I've researched. I leave that up to the client I work for...

If my client is a jerk, but I get paid, and my research has contributed to my clients getting a product out or getting a link to some site that can help them make money...then I'm okay and feel I accomplished what I was asked to do...

[Maddy McCall]

303. Bev is NO Michael Moore.

What a ludicrous comparison. I'm sure Bev likes to compare herself to Michael Moore, but she is nowhere near the person he is.

[KoKo]

313. There are parts to the "Votergate Documentary" which seem to show that

she's a Moore "wannabee." :shrug:

[AmyCrat]

315. Ya know, regardless...

Do you know how many years Michael Moore was "on the scene" before he became widely popular? In case you haven't noticed, we don't have that kind of time! :P

In was Bowling for Columbine that gave him momentum, and F911 that put him over the top.

Regardless, he's a FILMmaker... his credibility is much less "important" than someone filing lawsuits to prove election fraud. His controversial nature drives people to see his films, even if to call him a nut -- it won't work that way in a court of law.

[KoKo]

321. Yes...I see your point here...but don't we have room for both Moore & Bev?

in the spectrum of the flamboyant/controversial? I understand why Admins "tombstoned her." In fairness to them...they do this for all of us if we get "out of line."

Still...I "sit on the fence somewhat with Bev." I don't like that Symbolman and Stranger of "Take Back the Media" were left hanging out to dry because Bev had a "personality disorder brain fart" the day she was supposed to film with them, nor do I like or approve that she used DU'ers to do her research and David Allen to publish it and then goes around "threatening everyone who worked for her! Sounds like your average "Bushdom CEO of a Mega Drug Company" or something.

Still...she's flamboyant and the media loves it...just not KO...:shrug: and DU Admins who have to deal with her trashing folks and mods and them and never knowing where she's coming from...

[AmyCrat]

324. Not sure I agree the media has loved it

Or she'd be more IN the media. The main stream media that everyone sees.

I think there IS room for both. But I also think the BBV "powers that be" need to recognize the difference. The ISSUE itself is controversial -- no need for it's "leaders" to be controversial themselves. Let them do the smart PR work. Let them learn something from people like Rove, who we may not like, but who knows how to place the PR game.

[saracat]

521. Look at this proof that the media didn't love her ! Read Olberman's

reply. The following is a is a thread from her site:


sent Olbermann an email critical of his treatment of Bev.This is his response:
Who ever said we thought we believed ourselves deserving of a Pulitzer?

And, trust me, the "bigger ratings" make no difference financially or in other senses. My contract was renewed two weeks before this all began. This, from our perspective, is about the truth. And listening to someone sound like one of the hateful emails I've been getting from those on the political far right does NOT add to that person's credibility as a source of information.

Your email is shameful, and moreover, misses the entire point.

Seems Mr Olbermann is a bit sensitive to criticism. But, I'm kinda of a rabble rouser so I wrote him again. His response:

She removed all references this afternoon -- my last reference to her was last night. There is no tit-for-tat, I won't be bringing her up again.

You may have noticed Ms. Harris has been banned from the website Democratic Underground because she's been behaving erratically there, too. I'm sorry, but there is a far more dangerous dumbing down going on here -- believing what you want to believe (you know, like Conservatives do).

As to tonight's content on Countdown, I guess you missed the story on Delaware County losing its bid to stop the Ohio recount.

Please stop writing me until you regain your rationality and your use of polite language.

Really, I didn't curse or anything. Keith just can't handle criticism. But he does seem to answer his emails.

Is this true Bev? Erratically? I can't imagine why you'd be under any stress or anything.

Anyway, I urged Keith-y boy to make peace and report the important parts of this story and quit trying to turn it into some Anna Nicole jiggle piece. I hope this all works out, but Keith has lost all credibility in my book.




Alert | IP

[rockedthevoteinMA]

570. I read that too Saracat, and it really made me nervous -

Like if people keep nailing keith with the crazy emails, he could quite possibly just stop covering it. I don't think they realize what damage they are doing to this story...:(

[AntiFascist]

335. Sorry KoKo, but its DUers like you who are disrupting the cause....

by continuing to pit personality vs. personality. Who cares if she is a Michael Moore wannabe?? Personally I think that Hijacking Catastrophe is much more fact filled and better researched than F911, but where would we be now if it wasn't for these egocentric, greedy personalities?

The fact is, if you view the BBV video it gives a clear demonstration of how central tabulation results can be easily fixed using MS Access software commands. Now, is it any wonder that KO, who happens to work for another MS company, might be trying to discredit Bev Harris right before her documentary is put up on the web? (which is, by the way, at www.votergate.tv ).

[KoKo]

356. My read of your post is that you think I haven't watched "Votergate" and

am splitting folks because I should be defending Bev...not trying to point out the good and bad she's done but focusing on the fact that we aren't going to find someone as "perfect/pure" as we want?

:shrug: I had trouble reading your post...but think you misunderstood MY post.

[AntiFascist]

383. No, I think we are being a little too self-centered about all of this....

I'm concerned that all this talk about Bev Harris' underlying motives may be distracting people from the evidence which has been uncovered. Bev Harris wants to get rich off of other peoples work, Bev Harris is really working for the Right Wing, Bev Harris is unstable and burns bridges that she should be trying to cross, Bev Harris has fantasies about becoming the next Michael Moore.... If anyone else can do a better job then who is stopping them?

We need to put this all behind us and examine the fruits of her labor. There is an underlying insinuation that, because of her background and her motives, that possibly the results of her work are questionable. If that's the case then someone else needs to step up and validate those results, and I think people are already doing this.

Step back and look at the bigger picture for a second.

Right before the election Bev was trying to get election officials to unplug the modems from the Diebold central tabulator PCs, and hand deliver the results to the tabulator machines. Its probably safe to assume that many did not do this and left the modems connected so that hackers may have been able to phone into the machine and run scripts or viruses which activated the simple commands used to change the results.

Bev cautioned DU hackers not to be "heros" and try to do this in Kerry's favor. Why? Because any investigation might then uncover corruption on both sides, and this would ultimately work against us.

The result, now, is that widespread vote padding may have occured in California and Texas, giving Bush his 3 million vote margin. Not to mention corruption in Ohio and Florida which may have allowed Bush to claim a clear victory. These issues need to be investigated.

Any criticism of Bev Harris and her findings, at this point, work to discredit the whole issue of BBV and may work to prevent the necessary investigations. In other words, you may helping us to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[smartvoter]

203. It's her own behavior that's the problem. What good is the work

when she runs around making threats everywhere? It happened here that we all could see, we now learn it was happening much more than we realized and the only media personality giving us coverage shut the door because of threats. It's a pattern. It's a problem.

[Donailin]

272. Seriously! I'm sorry,

but it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth to see someone incessantly diss Bev like their life or happiness or self esteem depends on it.

The moderator spoke his peace, made the facts known and has settled the matter but the OP is still yapping away twisting the knife.

Sorta like the swift boat people still slamming Kerry even though the elction is over and they *apparently* succeeded.

It's creepy and really indicates vindictiveness. An ugly thing to behold, I think.

[robbedvoter]

280. Ugly? Many here were attacked - threatened with law suits, slimed

called freepers. For me it was an ommense frustration to see the issue I care so much about being used as a cash registered by someone killing its credibility. Truth matters to me.
So, if a swift boater parallel comes to mind, the shoe is on the foot of the lawsuit happy, not the ones saying: "Finally! After years and years of being slimed, the truth is acnowledged!"

[Donailin]

295. allegations

are just that. Post some substance where money was used improperly, where Bev was out shopping instead of looking for fraud, or name a lawsuit that has been presented to someone.

So far, all I see is posts where she acts cocky, has a temper problem, doesn't always come across as diplomatic and is overly possessive of her company. I have yet to seen any impropriety proven.

Face it, she is credible because she has brought the truth of the matter to light: the votes can, have and will be manipulated in black boxes, are you claiimng she had nothing to do with that research?

Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history.

[IAMREALITY]

298. Felt The Need To Expand For You

"Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history"

Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history for the better.

Hitler was an arrogant ass that changed history too, just wanted to clarify.

:)

[Donailin]

340. Camparing Bev to Hitler????

only illustrates youryour completely distorted view on the issue, and was totally out of line quite frankly. Bev May have issues but to comapare them with the nameless one who caused the death of millions is beyond the pale.

[IAMREALITY]

342. Sighhhhhhhh

There was NO comparison made to Bev and Hitler, and I'd love to see you prove that one.

It was just a point that you supplied an incomplete point, and I was illustrating how. Sheesh.

:eyes:

[Donailin]

358. Proof. (Like playing whack-a-mole)

>>There was NO comparison made to Bev and Hitler, and I'd love to see you prove that one.<<

Sure.

Me:
"Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history"

You:
"Gallileo was an arrogant ass, but he still changed history for the better.

Hitler was an arrogant ass that changed history too, just wanted to clarify."

Webster:
Main Entry: com·par·i·son
Pronunciation: k&m-'par-&-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French comparaison, from Latin comparation-, comparatio, from comparare
Date: 14th century
1 : the act or process of comparing: as a : the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another b : an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities

Any other questions?

[IAMREALITY]

361. Yup

Where Does It Say Bev anywhere.

If you actually read in context, you would see that your quote was meant to show that though arrogant, Bev could still change history. I knew you meant for the better, so I was doing you a favor by extending your quote to further show the context of what you meant, and to offer how someone could turn your quote against you by not having the addition to the quote.

My original post was in your FAVOR. But don't expect other's of mine to you in the future to be.

:dunce:

[Maddy McCall]

376. I think Tailgunner Joe McCarthy is a good Bev comparison.

He brought his own self down. He was led the anti-Communist movement not because he truly believed in the movement, but so he could gain noteriety. He was very active as a Communist hunter, but only for personal gain. His megalomania eventually brought his career, and not much later his life, to a halt.

[americanstranger]

384. Maddy,

You rock, you know that?

-as

[Maddy McCall]

393. Thanks!

:toast:

[IAMREALITY]

386. Love The Analogy/Imagery n/t

[Donailin]

408. Now that

would be a fair comparison.

See how easy that is, IAMREALITY?

[Donailin]

406. And again. .

>>Where Does It Say Bev anywhere.

If you actually read in context, you would see that your quote was meant to show that though arrogant, Bev could still change history. I knew you meant for the better, so I was doing you a favor by extending your quote to further show the context of what you meant, and to offer how someone could turn your quote against you by not having the addition to the quote.

My original post was in your FAVOR. But don't expect other's of mine to you in the future to be.<<

Oh please. You meant it exactly how it sounded, why obfuscate?

As for being in my favor, I'm not looking for favors, I'm looking for REGIME CHANGE! Stop losing sight of the bigger picture.

[AmyCrat]

300. How about look at it this way

"Face it, she is credible because she has brought the truth of the matter to light: the votes can, have and will be manipulated in black boxes, are you claiimng she had nothing to do with that research?"

Nobody is claiming that. To the contrary, most DU'ers have acknowledged her good WORK.

"So far, all I see is posts where she acts cocky, has a temper problem, doesn't always come across as diplomatic and is overly possessive of her company. I have yet to seen any impropriety proven."

And this isn't a huge problem? Ask 100 people you know, average people who spend their free time gardening instead of online if they ever heard of Bev Harris. 99% (if you're lucky to get that many) will tell you they never heard of her or BBV.org. And her attitude is part of the reason for that.

[Donailin]

421. OK

>>And this isn't a huge problem? Ask 100 people you know, average people who spend their free time gardening instead of online if they ever heard of Bev Harris. 99% (if you're lucky to get that many) will tell you they never heard of her or BBV.org. And her attitude is part of the reason for that.<<


All the people I know have heard of her b/c I hooked them up in the wee hours of Novemeber 4th, after kerry conceded on the 3rd. <g>I had no idea about Bev and BBV until that regretable night when someone in another forum told me of the possibility of the vote being hacked on a large scale. I found three solid links, two from scoop and the BBV which I thought were the most comprehensive detailed summaries that folks would easliy understand. I passed them on to dozens, and dozens of people and message boards.

Now, to say that no one has ever heard of her (partly)*because* of her is unfair. Put the blame where it's due: on the corporate media who have a vested interest in Bush winning the election, and the complacency of the people, including myself, who heard vague references in the past but thought, there's no way they'd actually get away with it and besides, Kerry will have all those lawyers.

What I see from the outside looking in is a woman who has a control problem and a movement who wants has a problem with her problem in a personal way. Her work is solid, but her anger tantrums are problematic.

If I didn't come here, I'd be none the wiser. Except for Oberman, who I happen to trust about as much as the Daily News, is not an investigative reporter, he is a former sportscaster with an hour slot on MSNBC comprised mainly of tabloid news, spun to be enetertaining. He has hundreds or thousands of DU'ers emailing and calling and he sees an oppurtunity to hike ratings, and that's what he gets paid for. MSM, in my mind, is serious reporting that comes from NYT, WP, NewsHour, the evening news with Rather, or 60 Minutes, along those lines. Mainstream; most widely read or viewed and respected. Oberman doesn't fit that category and most of the gardening people only pay attention to those mentioned sources. What Oberman reports is what ya'll tell him to report, as far as I can see. I have yet to hear him come up with any independant work of his own.

Bev has a legitimate place in this . . . history in the making. It is entirely possible to take the best and leave the rest. We do it all the time with activists who make a difference. I just don't think all this bashing will help. She's got a personality problem but has her soles to the pavement, so let's keep the dialogue open keep it on a need to know basis only. Just the facts' Bev, just the facts.

[AmyCrat]

424. You and I agree more than we disagree

I said *partly* for a reason. She had an invitation to appear on a prime-time main stream media program that was withdrawn due to her own beligerent behavior.

I know the corporate media is also *partly* to blame. Hence the reason we are barely getting coverage except on Keith Olbermann. Which is why it makes it so incredibly sad she burnt that bridge (at least for now -- I still have hopes it could get cleared up if she swallowed some pride).

"Her work is solid, but her anger tantrums are problematic."

You and I agree ;)

I also agree she does have a ligitimate place in all this. Never said she didn't. To the contrary, I keep driving home this issue because my HOPE is that she will do some serious mirror looking and say "ya know what, maybe I SHOULD get a good PR person to help with this -- maybe I SHOULD keep my mouth shut in a given situation until my blood pressure drops just a bit." Her personality problem isn't unfixable, but it has the potential to REALLY discredit her -- and the whole movement (in the corporate media eyes).

[Maddy McCall]

425. Olbermann was a sportscaster, Bev was a"Clinton Cigar" salesperson.

So what's your point?

And, let me add that Bev claimed that she never even voted until 2000, yet she's "leading the charge for democracy."

If anyone has a dubious past....well, it ain't Olbermann.

[Stand and Fight]

670. Hmmm....

Playing the devil's advocate here...
I didn't vote until 2000 either and I think I'd be perfectly capable of leading the charge... LOL... Of course I didn't even turn 18 until after the presidential election, so.... Just thought I'd point out the LARGE hole in that argument.

[high density]

515. While Bev was selling those Clinton Cigars...

...Olbermann was telling MSNBC that he was tired of covering the Lewinsky story.

He discusses the situation here: http://www.news.cornell.edu/campus/Olbermann_speech.html It's long, but you should read it before bashing Olbermann.

[Donailin]

539. nice article

"life is defined by how much you improve the lives of others" -KO

[Maddy McCall]

371. Allegations, my sweet ass!

Since you are a noobie, maybe it would behoove you to acquaint yourself with Bev's history here. Get settled in for a long night's reading.

Oh, and by the way, you asked me, in a thread that was eventually locked because of flaming, if I ever get sleep. Here's my response--No, I don't get much sleep. But I had been away at DU during the day yesterday taking my PhD written comps in history. You know, in history, you learn to examine source materials as objectively as possible, and then to reach a conclusion. That's what I did with these threads below, and through other observances of Bev's behavior. When bev releases a financial statement, I'll make rational interpretations there, too, but at this point, we only have her past behavior to go on. And, by the way, she is a 501c3, so she should present financial records to anyone who requests them. Wish her organization was as transparent as we all wish the government was.

Check these out:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1330558
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606666
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1993788

[Donailin]

426. Now this sheds some light.

And it's a lot of reading. So she turned capitalist? That is regrettable. If you prove it, or if it is proven, I will buy you dinner.
The only thing I despise more than threads that trash seemingly hard working folks who aren't there to defend themselves is people who get corrupt with money and power from the folks who trust them. Big difference between that and getting pissy and threatening to sue.

I'm going to read these links.

Thanks.

[Donailin]

531. After hours of reading

really really interesting stuff, it seems that Bev is duplicitous, self serving, and paranoid.

I don't see much indication of her financially gaining from all of this, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Even if she isn't, she has gained in fame, if not noteriety. That changes people too.

Perspective is everything, and again, as an impartial observer, what I'm gleaming from the threads you provided is that David gathered very sensitive info on Diebold that put them at risk at some point. I would like to know more about this if anyone can provide a link. Did this contibute to Bev's paranoia and her subsequent turning on her comrades? I don't know, there's a lot to digest in all of this.And this may come from left field, but is she on any medication? Anti-depressants, that sort of thing? Because that also can be a factor in erratic behavior.

But mostly, what I gather is that you have two sides to this infighting, and quite honestly, both sides -- like Althecat and Plan9 and Bev- present themselves so professionally and articulately and honestly that it is really hard to dismiss either as being "incredible" except that the opposers to Bev in the links you provided outnumber the defenders AND they shy away from nothing, as Bev has a pattern of doing. So, if I were to bet money (or dinner) or if I were a mediator, I would tend to weigh in favor of Bev's oppostion.

As an aside, I just read this:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID4408&conf=DCConfID134

and no mention of the people in DU, or her being banned. I see the pattern of ignoring you folks again just as in the provided links by Maddy.


Conclusion: She's the most recognized name wrt BBV, and those who aided in her rise to 'infamy' have basically witnessed their efforts lose credibility in recent days because of her temperment and inability to be authentically proffessional as opposed to quasi- proffessional. It's a damn shame. Your grievances are legitimate, Bev's investigative work is legitimate, but separating Bev harris from BBV is a divorce that is ugly and dissappointing and harmful to the cause itself.

I appreciate the efforts all you folks and a huge Apology for being so harsh and critical without the facts.

[Kelvin Mace]

568. Apology happily accepted

I am greatly relieved to see that the facts can be persuasive.

To address some of your questions/points

1) Bev became increasingly erratic as the issue grew in noteriety. I ascribed this to the pressure of the work, and made allowances. However, as time went on, I found myself defending her allies (from Roxanne to Avi Rubin) from Bev's increasing belief that they were out to "steal her work" and "make money" or that people were hacking her computer or tapping her phone or breaking into her house. I had numerous conversations about problems with her computer (I am a systems engineer and have done phone tech support for eight years) and what Bev was ascribing to "enemy action" was Windows being Windows. Bev had a very tenuous grasp of computer issues, which did improve with time, but her natural paranoia was always willing to see evil intent where I just saw incompetence.

2) I am not qualified to judge Bev's mental state, but I will say that in my opinion a medical/psych evaluation would be in order.

3) Re: links provided. You have pretty much got all the links I am aware of. Bev didn't fare well in these exchanges because her own words came back to contradict her. She was invited to provide evidence backing up her accusations and defenses on numerous occasions but never did so. She couldn't as the evidence wasn't there to support her claims. I kept ALL my email both from and to Bev, so I am quite aware what she has in the way supporting her outrageous claims.

Much has been made of the reliability of Bev's early work, but consider: The early work was when Bev had numerous technically competent people working with her. If you look at her work since they all left (after March 2004) you will see lots of unsubstantiated claims, no hard evidence

4) Bev has deliberately changed the record to erase her own perfidy and to denigrate and/or diminish the roles of others. Two quick examples for you. Look at the book PDFs on her site and compare them to mine:

a)You will note the introduction is missing from Bev's set. This is because it contains the title page with my name as contributing writer (she also expunged my name from the cover GIF and the Amazon listing). It also contains credits for Lex Alexander and Brad Guigar (Editor and cover artist). You can read the missing section here:

http://thoughtcrimes.org/bbv/bbv_intro.pdf

b) Compare chapter nine, page 96 of the original where Bev describes the finding of the Diebold FTP site:

I clicked “press releases” to see what kind of claims this company was making. Then I clicked all the links. I clicked the link called “FTP” and it took me to a page full of files.

I called David Allen. “What am I looking at?”

He took one look at the page and snorted incredulously. “Incredible
stupidity.”

(For the record, what I actually said was "The keys to the candy store." Bev decided this was "dangerous" and changed it.)

“Click ‘Pub’ ” he suggested. We did. What follows is the first detailed look — ever — into a secret voting system.

http://thoughtcrimes.org/bbv/bbv_chapter-9.pdf

Now, compare it to the version on Bev's site:

I clicked all the links, including the link called “FTP,” which took me to a page full of files.

I called David Allen. “What am I looking at?”

Allen admitted that the file names, like “BS4” and “GA-062802”
meant nothing to him, but we both knew that this was an online file stash. He snorted and offered a comment: “Incredible stupidity.”

I’d found the crown jewels for Diebold Election Systems. What
follows is the first detailed look — ever — into a secret voting system.

(Note: When this first started to get pointed out, the PDF version on Bev's site got moved WAY down the page).

This is just one example of MANY of Bev's actions to cast herself in a favorable light at the expense of others. Watch "Invisible Ballots" and you will hear from Bev's own mouth thnigs she now denies.

[Donailin]

713. Integrity matters

You've got it.

Absolutely.

[Maddy McCall]

578. No apology necessary to me

I just want everyone to know what has happened in the past so that we can lose the burdens of the movement and move on to the real work of exposure to fraudulent elections.

Best wishes. :-)

[Donailin]

712. Same

as my daughter would say. ;-)

[Kelvin Mace]

395. You ask for proof

but if you have been actually READING the various threads around here you would have found links to Bev's vicious behaviour. You demand proof for what reason? So we can convince you? Some how I don't think a video taped confession from Bev herself would convince you.

If I had a dime for every post where people have demanded proof when they are already swimming in it I could afford the legal bill Bev has caused me.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Donailin]

427. chill

there are literally thousands of posts, you can't expect anyone to read everything, I do have a day job and three kids, none of whom drive.

I found the links posted by Maddy yesterday and the day before to be insignificant, but the ones I just came across now are a different story. And I have checked out your website, but did not have time to search it for the relevant info.

[T Town Jake]

736. Blah, blah, blah...

...jeesuz, but you Bev Bots are so ridiculously transparent.

[americanstranger]

289. Let me tell you something.

I've been posting here since back in 2000. I've gotten into disagreements with people here, had differences of opinion plenty of times, but was always treated with respect, even though there was disagreements between two DUers.

I have had differences with Bev supporters as well. Do you know what the difference is?

No DUer ever accused me of being a freeper or an RNC mole until I disagreed with a Bev Harris supporter. And I heard it every time I veered off the Bev Harris party line.

I haven't even posted here too much over the past few months, because I was sick and fucking tired of being accused of being a 'freeper' or 'on Rove's payroll' or other snide bullshit accusations from Bev supporters.

So in that respect, I'm goddam glad this has happened. Maybe people will start to think twice before they roll out the freeper accusations.

And I'm not in a forgiving mood when it comes to people who don't even know me accusing me of being something I'm not. If you think that's wrong, so be it.

-as

[Ladyhawk]

462. Someone accused YOU of being a freeper? Wow. :)

Naw, americanstranger and Maddy BOTH rock.

:yourock:

[Maddy McCall]

362. To whom do you refer as "the OP?"

Just curious.

[Faun Otter]

385. Read some archives -

and use Google with words like 'diebold' and the names of some posters here and you will understand that Harris took a lot of other people's work and claimed credit for it, she made unsupported and unsupportable claims, when challenged on those claims Harris attacked the very people who had done all the work. For double bonus points, try comparing the printed version of BBV and the PDF version on Harris' site. Orwell would have chuckled at such revisionist history.

She is a nut case who has set back our credibility on vote related issues. It isn't your fault you don't know these things but it behooves you to gather some information for yourself before jumping to conclusions and posting insulting messages to this board.

Faun

[Donailin]

532. Ah, you are right

I totally apologize to all: Maddy, David, you, and IAMReality (sort of)--he did compare bev to hitler, but I get whe s/he is coming from now.

If I had been one of you, my reaction would be the same.

I have a serious problem with people who lie -- my ex is pathological and I have to deal with it all the time, it's maddening and really makes you cynical and jaded. Hence my huge problem with Bush and my own activism. But perspective is everything, so thanks for enlightening me.

[IAMREALITY]

545. Donailin LOL

I do not lie, EVER. Please understand I was NOT comparing her to hitler, I had good intentions with that post, my god! LOL

[Donailin]

716. My God

smokes peace pipe with your god. ;-)

[Faun Otter]

583. Thanks for taking the time to read

It is so rare to see a rational approach to an emotional topic.

Thanks also for taking the time (and courage) to correct your position.
It is appreciated.

Faun

[Donailin]

715. No problem., Peace!

If we can't make peace here, the where?

[intelle]

240. I am beginning to think "yup"

[smartvoter]

177. You should be asking her why she behaves this way.

Attention? Look at what she's done with the only MSM reporter covering this story. Frankly, she runs the risk of doing more harm than good if she can't act properly, regardless of how much fraud she unearths.

[smartvoter]

179. Do you think we'll lose people over this?

Or will they see that the Olbermann report looks a lot like the experience here...???

[righteous1]

182. Appear to be in the distinct minority KB

The juries in and it's not looking good for BH

[liberalnurse]

185. I 'm sure there are two sides to the story.....

that said; Elad was unbias in his explaination.....I have admired Bev's dedication and work but this other side; ....the "Two Faces of Bev"; gave the DU administrators no other choice.

I'm dumb-founded as how an intelligent activist can shoot her own foot off .....threatening DU.

She is biting the hand that feeds her. :shrug:

[Jersey Devil]

204. She has obvious delegation of authority problems

She should have her head inside those machines, her eyes glued to voting tapes, her ears tuned to pick up inconsistencies in official explanations and leave the PR and media communications to someone else. Geeking computer information and investigations are her strongpoints. But her communications skills are nonexistent. Unfortunately it is quite apparent that she is a control freak and will never allow anyone else a position of public prominence in the organization who could take over those duties.

[Kelvin Mace]

262. Biting?

Some of us only have bloody stumps left. <g>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[emcguffie]

201. once again, democratic in-fighting

Maybe it's congenital? lots of very able people have bad tempers. I didn't see all this stuff, just seems like a bad time to be making enemies, having confrontations.

There are those who, once riled and angry, do not ever forget (I am married to one of those). Then, there are those who get riled all the time, say stupid things, and then forget them. I wonder if that's Bev Harris?

[Kelvin Mace]

237. I can tell your from first-hand experience

That Bev Harris neither forgives nor forgets those she decides have crossed her.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[emcguffie]

261. never forgetting

Well, then, she's kind of like my husband, who never forgets any slight, no matter how unintentional.

My mom was a real fighter. She was like Bev, she threatened to sue people all the time. But she was also quite an incredible force in the good fights. (She died about a year and a half ago.) And I could tell when she was getting depressed, because then she would get REALLY MEAN. NASTY.

But she contributed a lot to the forward development of some important things, and she wasn't a bad person. She really did a lot of good.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are in a touchy situation all around, and as much forgiving and forgetting as anyone can call upon themselves to do, the more better for all of us... I've been called temperamental a time or two myself. Maybe that's why I try to defend the temperamental. But I'm less apt to lose my temper now than years ago.

Then again, I do not have your repository of bad feeling. (I can also have a very hard time forgiving and forgetting myself. Unless I just have to, because I live with the person. Then it's over pretty quickly.)

No matter how ridiculous her threats are, how bad her temper is (and it probably isn't ego, or at least not a strong one; more likely she's -- I guess I can't say it, can I?), she is not the adversary.

But look here, everyone is talking, talking, talking about Bev and the big fight, instead of what we can be doing to save our country from the really bad guys, who have hijacked our entire world. I feel like I'm caught up in a very bad dream. One that is going to have real repercussions. For my little girl.

The bushies sure aren't concerned about the next seven generations.

I don't know how to mobilize people. They are despondent. Feel like nothing can be done. I don't believe that. But for some reason I am just about the only person I know who is completely obsessed with the election, and how we can expose what happened.

Sorry for going on for so long.

Ellen

[Kelvin Mace]

267. Not at all,

check your email.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[americanstranger]

269. It's too important to leave to someone

who 'says stupid things and then forgets them.'

In order to gain a higher profile for the entire issue, we need someone out front who will work to cultivate good relations with the media.

Threatening the employees of the one guy on TV who wanted to help simply ain't the way to do it, IMO.

And Olbermann is right - stunts like the LePore confrontation ('serving' fake 'papers' after the real legal papers had been served earlier in the day by a real process server, with a video camera running the entire time) do nothing but make Bev Harris look like a loon.

And if the presumed figurehead of a movement looks like a loon, then everyone following that figurehead looks like a loon, as well.

The issue is too damned important for that.

-as

[robbedvoter]

260. The e-voting fraud issue is/was always bigger than Bev, Countless DU-ers

are working on it and more credible spokesmen emerged to fill the lack of leadership that allowed the mooching of the bereaved. Like the anti-war movement outgrew Ramsey Clark, so did the voting rights movement finally passed the kooks stage. As Earl G's post clearly states, DU will continue to pursue the issue. It'll just have to do it without threats of lawsuits, "OMG!" breathless empty statements and grandiosity. DU will do all right - and hopefully the voting rights will be advanced.

[milkyway]

178. Thanks for a reasoned and gracious explanation. DU is the best managed

site on the Internets. You guys have done incredible work here, and make other boards look like hopeless amateurs in comparison.

I would hope to see others here follow the example your dignified post has provided us.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigo11153]

198. Good work

It had to happen.

[americanwhothinks]

200. Good Call.... Personal Bickering is a Sad, Absurd Waste of Time!! n/t

[yardwork]

202. I support the DU admins 100% on their decision

It's very unfortunate that such a crucial issue became tied up in some issues of ego and control.

I think that the DU admins have done a good job of not placing blame, but stepping in when they had to and making the hard decisions.

[flyarm]

215. but its a sad day for those of us in FLA!!!

what is truely sad is , those of us in Fla have been subject of someone who filed too late, and kept everyone out , and this story here of fraud has now been made insignificant.
many of us offered help, we offered to do garbage checks, and checking numbers , and we were frozen out, we were told our names were on their files, and we would get calls when they needed our help..well we are still awaiting the calls...and in the mean time..the records and proof have now been marginalized ..and any proof there was is now more than likely gone..
what should have been a group venture for the truth, was controlled by a party of 3 with the rest of us who were more than willing to put ourselves in the fray to get the truth..were shut out!!
i wrote ,i offered ,i got teams of people ready to go..i had so many send emails to bev..and got one reply from votergate....(none from bev)...that i was on their files..under a different name and sn...we believed their was hope to finally get the help to get our votes counted and a legitimate election or the proof of an illegitimate election...now i feel doubly used...first by our government and now by possibly someone going to use what happened here for someones profit...it has been like a double kick in the stomach.

my husband and i have known keith a very long time..years and years in fact...he is a man of incredible integrity ..not many of those in the media industry anymore!! i salute you keith!! No more honest man in the biz!! and he has taken great risks in this political climate to make a stand for truth in reporting and as an american, and a man!!

he told me some things i could not and would not repeat here..but EARL...you did the right thing!!
Thank you EARL...for standing with the utmost integrity.

[AmyCrat]

221. You're not the first to talk about shut-out volunteers

I know it can be overwhelming to consider deligating to lots and lots of volunteers, but the alternative (3 people doing everything) has hurt her, and the whole effort. You're not the first to talk about the specifics of that.

[crispini]

226. Now THAT's a tragedy.

And perhaps the saddest thing I have heard so far. That REAL WORK has gone undone....

[mzmolly]

248. Please give Keith O our regards. His work is greatly appreciated.

:hi:

[crispini]

283. Yes, and tell him that

we luuuuurve him.... :loveya:

[emcguffie]

277. since you know him, a silly question?

Was he once upon a time of the thespian persuasion? Knows a little bit too much Shakespeare for your average sports whatchacallit!

[flyarm]

380. answer to your question

Keith Olbermann (who co-hosted "SportsCenter" with Patrick for five-and-half years) goes even farther. "The one thing most young people seem to bring to broadcasting these days is that they really don't know anything but broadcasting. They should have some general knowledge. You never know when that reference to Shakespeare is going to be useful. You never know when you're going to suddenly be switched from sports to news, and you are going to have to know where Iraq is."

keith went to cornell!!

[illuminaughty]

755. Thanks for sharing this

Don't give up on Florida. We are working on fraud here in Missouri, just average citizens, sans camera. Maybe it's better this all happened before mainstream media jumped on board. Today, the Chicago Trib has broken its silence and so others will likely follow. Now that more people's eyes are open to Ms. Harris's antics, it will not look like our proof for voter fraud lies in the hands of an unstable egomaniac. She does not have the smoking gun. The smoking guns are lying all around this country just waiting to be found by the average concerned citizen.

Keith has always been above the fray. Love him! I've e-mailed everyday that he reported thanking him. I recently sent him info with issues that are quite real. It has been hard to know who to trust with the information. But, I decided to send it to him and maybe he'll know what to do with it.

[gorbal]

222. WOW!

I have been supporting Bev on various threads, (in a nice way) but I did not realize the history you guys have with her. I wasn't even close, jeez!

Complex conspiracy scenarious are playing in my mind now that I'm not sure I want to share, but I'm sure you can guess. Some of these scenarios can be so complex that the mind can pass them off as impossible for the sake of it's own saninty, even if it isn't.

[JohnnyCougar]

247. Believe me, you're not the only one.

[MichaelHarris]

205. I agree with Earl's decision 100%

not that it matters but the infighting is just too much to bear. Also I never liked showboats.

[Catherine Vincent]

209. Well it had to be done. I respect this decision by the owners of DU.

Although I still support Bev and wish her well, I just can't get over her selling Clinton cigars. It irks me that she profited from my beloved Clinton's bogus impeachment.

I started posting in DU in 2001 (I think), does anyone know if Bev ever posted comments about anything else (Clinton, Gore, Hillary, Democrats in general) or anything anti-Bush besides BBV?

[AmyCrat]

212. ya know, when I told this to my husband last night...

He was more shocked than I expected to be, and was like "that's really bad!" (regarding the Clinton Cigars). I really don't have much to say about it either way, who knows what to think... but I can see how some people would say it proves that she jumps on an issue to make money (not that I buy that, but who knows).

[Eloriel]

365. It's the tackiest damn thing I've ever heard

I would expect an Ann Coulter to do something truly ugly, vile, crude and lewd like that, but NOT ... well, you get the picture.

People are also forgetting that Bev is an INDEPENDENT, not a Democrat or even Green. Of course, that's helpful in the 501(c)(3) sense, but it's something I've wondered about myself, especially after I learned about the cigar thing.

[AmyCrat]

367. uh uh... should I admit this...

I'm a registered Independent (but I usually vote Democrat)

:O8) or :evilfrown:

[JohnnyCougar]

218. THANK YOU!!!!!

I am so fucking glad you did this! You don't know how much I hate being called a freeper for trying to be reasonable around here. I'm sure others feel the same way!

Bev lures reactionaries into following her agenda, much in the same way that Rove lures reactionaries into following Bush. Granted, Bev's cause is legitimate, it's either fuck or walk with her. You're either with her or against her. If you don't agree 100% with her actions, you are a freeper.

This kind of black and white thinking has to stop around here, and this post is just what DU needed. There is much to be said for keeping an open discussion forum, but things had gotten out of hand a while ago.

This is all too sad, though. It's a shame to see all Bev's hard work go to no use because she can't share any of the credit with other people. It will be her own undoing, though.

In any event, THANK YOU!!!

[robbedvoter]

224. Good call - not a minute too soon. Issues over personalities -

that was the permanent theme of all my postings.
You cannot go wrong if your allegiance is to the truth rather than people, it's easier to avoid getting conned and your disappointments are shorter lived.
back to the voter fraud then!

[BlackVelvet04]

225. I applaud your decision.

I'm still new here but I had reservations about all the fund raising for Bev. I donated to others including the Glibs but never to BBV.

[Must_B_Free]

231. Well that settles it for me

thanks Mr. Earl G

[LoZoccolo]

238. Do you have something else to say?

For the rest of us?

[cayanne]

232. Bev Harris is self destructive...

and is her own worst enemy.

Her attacks against other DUers were horrific and her false attacks against David (her former publisher) were unconscionable. I know because I've been here prior to Bev Harris' first post and was witness to the entire unfortunate episodes.

I gladly thank the DU administrators for making what I believe is the right decision.

[dawn_fayhe]

235. Bev

Why the harshness? This is all the fault of Conservatives!!! ugh!!!!!!!!!

[Kelvin Mace]

239. Dawn, I am just curious

You have six posts, so welcome to DU.

That said, how did you come to DU. We are seeing a BUNCH of BRAND NEW people joining up and posting on this thread, mostly in defense of Bev? Is someone asking folks to come over here, telling you that "conservatives" at DU are attacking Bev?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[dawn_fayhe]

243. HI THERE!

No, I have been here for a few days posting :) I love it here everyone is friendly. Mostly LOL!!

Anyways, I came to this thread because I heard Bev might sue the DU.

[Kelvin Mace]

271. Ah, okay

Thanks, and again welcome.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[LoZoccolo]

241. Which conservatives?

Sounds like she did it to herself, from what I read.

[Fud]

522. If the work was so "important" to her.

Why was she spending so much time posting here the last few days? You would think if someone was really serious about this wouldn't be messing around message boards and get to work on the issue.

Christ it's Dec 4 and she has nothing better to do than still trying to promote herself until the ban!

I thought the ban would of happened last week or earlier with all the antics going on. Bartcoppers were on to her over a year and a half ago on this issue and how she would tarnish the whole bbv subject.

My post count is low so pls don't call me a newbie or a freeper...long time reader but busy on another forum.

I was kind of shocked by that quote below that David posted how she associates with freepers. Jim March is a gun nut and there is a pic of him somewhere pointing a pistol with a caption something to the effect of "shoot to kill".

So my hope is this long saga can be put behind and energys put forward to people that are doing real work and not showboating.

Bev sorry to say it but you dug your own grave....been nice knowing you...NOT.

[Maddy McCall]

265. You want to see whose fault this is? Read these DU archival links:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1330558
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606666
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1993788

[crispini]

281. Wow.

That's some interesting reading....

[JohnnyCougar]

304. Holy crap...who's that Melinda on the second to last thread?

She needs to smoke a joint or something.

[Melinda]

402. You buyin?

I'm the same gal I was in the 1st thread of that group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764

I well remember how Bev went after Roxanne.......


I felt at the time that Bev had to have been HUGE amount of stress as the things she accused Roxanne of (looking to profit by filing a qui tam and looking to sabatoge Bev's efforts) were beyond the pale in their sheer unreasonableness.

I repeatedly pleaded with Bev to NOT do that here, and to retract her ugly, ugly words... she was viciously horrible in the things she said, and she HURT many people who had worked very hard in what we all believed at the time to be our common cause. Bev's diatribe resulted in her being banned from DU along with Roxanne - Bev promised to play nice and was subsequently reinstated here, while Roxanne left for good.

Rox went on to work her ass off in GA without seeking compensation or, as she had been accused of by Bev, filing the same Qui Tam that Bev swore up and down she would NEVER file, and that she would never seek compensation.

To say I am shocked at this revelation would be an understatement. All I can and will do at this point is to nod to both Rox and Eloriel - spot on call ladies - and make certain that I distance myself from Ms Harris in the future.

I once trusted you Bev; now I want nothing to do with you.

-end-


As you can see, I don't tolerate bullshit well. Today is a good day -Bev and her ego are gone, gone gone. Now, pass that over here, thanks.

:toast:

[JohnnyCougar]

431. Okay--I will buy!

:smoke:

Pass

[yowzayowzayowza]

317. Sad. Really. Really. Sad.

n/t

[Bethany Rockafella]

440. Thanks for this. I have only read three of them so far. This is some good

shit!

[HeyManThatsCool]

242. Excellent Post

Thank you so much Earl for posting.
That was extrememly well written & easy enough for everyone to understand.

[goodhue]

245. Kick her while she's down, eh?

Free Bev Harris!

[Maddy McCall]

249. You jest?

Bev did this to herself. No one did it to her.

[Skip Intro]

290. urgh - never mind

[robbedvoter]

251. Down? As in "down in Florida"?

Free Bev Harris? No. Expensive Bev Harris.
"She take your money" as in that "Matilda" song

[symbolman]

266. Thanks so much EarlG

I'm glad you guys have been so fair to everyone, but you have to cover your asses. Once someone has threatened you legally you have to be careful. She threatened to sue more people than Bill O'Reilly walking from the studio to the limo - sueing people along the way..

I keep thinking this reminds me of a book I read in High School - a metaphor for "The Scarlet Letter"..

[ElementaryPenguin]

282. Whatever her personality issues are, we can't afford to ban Bev Harris

Not at this critical juncture. I love DU, respect Skinner and EarlG, but I think erratic, inconsiderate behavior, while it can difficult and unpleasant to deal with, is worth overlooking when the stakes are as high as they are right now. Bev Harris, from some of the descriptions here, may well be the biggest bitch on the planet - but she has helped to uncover the mechanism by which the biggest fraud in the history of our nation appears to have occured, and her work has propelled a movement to try to save the world's most celebrated democracy. Her difficult personality notwithstanding, I still liken her legacy to Poland's Lech Walesa - and for all I know, personality wise, Walesa may be the biggest asshole on the planet - but I don't care. I want to stop the Bush Right Wing War Machine from destroying our cherished constitution and our democratic system of government, and perhaps even destroying the world.

If I have to become an ally of the likes of a Joseph Stalin in order to defeat an even more evil enemy (which we've obviously done before) than I must be willing do just that. Personality clashes, legal threats, obnoxious behavior be damned! This is a fight we CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE, and we need every resource available to us! The contributions that Harris collected by way of the DU may well have been responsible for the fraud audit and lawsuits in Florida - which may prove to be a key element in uncovering the fraud nationally. What's done is done, but I wish we'd learn to toughen up - hold our noses, or do whatever we have to do to cope with each other and get the job done. I'm sure the other side doesn't find Tom Delay a pleasant character to do business with, but they murder us with him just the same. The fact of the matter is, this isn't a personality contest we're engaged in here, folks - it's a war. A nasty, brutal, ugly war, in which criminal, racist, and treasonous tactics are being employed with regularity. In the midst of such battles - with the control of the world's most powerful country at stake - sometimes a personality challenged General Patton comes in real handy.

[AmyCrat]

286. Look at it another way...

Being banned from the DU forums will not keep her from being able to read the forums and do research.

Being banned from the DU forums will not inhibit her ability to do the work BBV.org is doing.

Being banned from the DU forums MAY make her see that beligerent behaviors (especially with people on YOUR side!) gets you no where good.

Being banned from the DU forums will give her more time to focus on the issue. She doesn't need to be engaging in arguments here.

And hopefully, maybe, being banned from the DU forums will make her see that the way your handle public relations is important. Getting "blackballed" by the main stream media, a popular democratic forum system, or anywhere else isn't good for the cause -- and ultimately, THAT is what's important.

[regnaD kciN]

396. I disagree...

Being banned from the DU forums will not inhibit her ability to do the work BBV.org is doing.

It will make communicating the work to the large number of us who get our primary, up-to-the-minute news on such issues from DU much harder. It will reduce her visibility and that of BBV with progressives everywhere. Thus, it will make it far easier for the media as a whole to ignore and discount not only Bev Harris, but any abuses of the voting system this past election, and even the "verified voting" issue (the ones the admins claim to support) altogether.

And I can't see how this will have any effect other than making it easier for the G.O.P. to get away with whatever fraud they may have committed, and intend to continue committing.

:-(

[AmyCrat]

403. um... I'm not sure

I'm not sure we were getting super speedy updates here, but I could be wrong.

Maybe they should update their own site more frequently... isn't that what they have it for?

And I didn't see anyone here saying they wouldn't still point to BBV.org as a resource for information.

The media, if they ignore her (or continue to) -- well maybe you should ask why rather than pointing a finger at DU. She shot HERSELF in the foot with the Olbermann thing... and she had NOT been banned from here at that point.

Like I said in another reply, if she's seen as a "loon" because of her own behavior, no one will give credit to the work. She should look to herself to make changes in how she interacts with her volunteers and the media. That's all anyone can hope for.

[regnaD kciN]

474. I'm not implying that Bev is blameless...

...but it sure doesn't seem like anyone else around here is willing or able to do the work she's been doing. If there was, I might write this off as just another petty p*ss*ng match between people with an ego to match their dedication to the cause, and figure that we can do just as well with less static with her gone. As it is, though, I see Bev out doing something, while the rest of us just sit around and post "preaching to the choir" messages here.

:-(

[AmyCrat]

477. lot of us are doing lots of things

I think you discredit a lot of people here who are doing GREAT work on this. Lots of great websites, resources, petitions, protest organizing, researching, going over numbers and statistics, writing letters, attending hearings, etc. etc. etc.

It's great Bev is out doing something. She just needs to learn to not get so hot-headed at the wrong people while doing it.

[Im with Rosey]

528. I'm a newbie (see # posts)

but IMHO, it seems there are a lot of people that have been working extremely hard to bring facts out unto the open. I have been constantly amazed at the willingness to check details, do research, follow through on various areas of possible information, etc.
I think the bottom line is to make sure that all the "hard work" that is the signature of so many DU'ers doesn't go down the tubes along with BEV. It is very important that those DU'ers make sure others (not sure who,though)have all the info they have been giving to Bev. Don't let all that go to waste!!!

[Stand and Fight]

287. "An ally of the likes of Joseph Stalin"?

Riiight....

Joseph Stalin helped engineer the deaths of countless numbers of people -- more than Adolf Hitler and certainly more than our piss-ant president, George "Dubya" Bush. So, that tells us that you will allow anyone to walk all over you just because they appear to be serving the larger cause. Well, sometimes people's ego hinder a movement more than they help it, and I adamantly feel that at this "critical juncture," it is imperative that we NOT do that. Especially when people in the main stream media are willing to cover the story, and decline to do so because of an erratic and eccentric ego driven personality. You say we cannot afford to lose this fight, and I don't think anyone here would disagree with that part of your argument. However, your argument borders on the absurd when you say we need every resource available to us when the person you are championing just burnt a bridge to a mainstream media personality -- the only one -- who has been covering this story form almost the very beginning. And you're very right on another of your points -- "Personality clashes, legal threats, obnoxious behavior be damned!" Exactly. That is the reason the moderators have made a most reasonable decision in light of Bev Harris' transgressions against our collective better interest. Rather than being concerned about the collective better interest the person whom you champion has threatened to bite the very hands that fed her and, much worst, ignored or neglected to contact those who have offered to lend our efforts greater numbers. Patton is a personal hero of mind, and you would do yourself a great service to actually study his life rather than drawing comparisons on moot poets. Bev Harris is no where near the champion of democracy as that great soldier -- regardless of his flamboyant personality tendencies. No, I believe the decision the moderators have made is wise and shall serve to further our collective interests. Having served in the army I can tell you that in the heat of battle the most successful warriors know to put aside their egos and put their teams before themselves. They know this because not doing so will result in defeat and worst yet death. Oh, one more than about Stalin... In the end it was his ego and paranoia that desired him and the communist movement he sought to spread.... Kinda makes you think.

[ElementaryPenguin]

294. If you are an American, YOUR country was an ally of Joseph Stalin

In order to defeat Hitler's Nazi Germany!!! Duh!!

[Stand and Fight]

305. What? So what!

Your post makes no sense! What is it that you are trying to say? For one, I played no part in the decision to make him our ally, and he was only our ally once Germany turned on him. For another thing, Hitler betrayed his non-aggression pact with Stalin, invaded Russia with the commencement of "Operation Barbarossa," and then, ONLY THEN, did Joseph Stalin seek to join the Allies. So, I don't see what bearing your post has on the subject matter.

[Maddy McCall]

419. Yeah, and then came the Cold War and the threat of...

and mutually assured destruction, US vs USSR. Stalin's brief alliance with Roosevelt/Truman proved to be not so beneficial in the end, didn't it?

[Skip Intro]

288. Yeah, what you said. This is a sad day.

I don't like the banning at all.

Especially now.

Somewhere in the "bowels" of the regime, they are laughing.

[dweller]

491. And that's why the 'gods'

gave us the ignore button/function.

reach out and touch someone.
you'll feel better.


peace,
dp

[IndyPriest]

306. Elementary

I must say: I like your style!

[Kelvin Mace]

404. Unbelievable

This is a fight we CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE

The why is Bev doing her damnedest to lost it?

If I have to become an ally of the likes of a Joseph Stalin in order to defeat an even more evil enemy.

Yes we did ally with Stalin to defeat Hitler, but if memory serves Stalin did not one year into the alliance start shooting American and British general's who disagreed with his strategy.

Let me try and spell this out for you in one sentence.

Bev Harris Is Not BBV Incarnate.

In the midst of such battles - with the control of the world's most powerful country at stake - sometimes a personality challenged General Patton comes in real handy.

In other words, the ends justify the means? To fight tyrants we must become tyrants? Are you by chance bucking for a job in the Bush administration?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[garybeck]

285. the good news is

that this is all happening still before the entire story actually breaks the mainstream media. it is better to get this overwith now, instead of say, in the middle of the Ohio recount, or during hearings in the congress.

at this point most people in the country still have no idea who Bev Harris is. By the time the flood of events and actions break down the walls of the media, this will be old news. All they'll be able to say is that Bev has a hard time getting along with other people, or perhaps she has a big ego. There won't be a big controversy going on to divert attention from the real issue.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

293. precisely !

Just a question for the Admins.

Does the ban include Andy Stephenson ?

[JohnnyCougar]

398. it dosn't look lik he's been banned n/t

[Swamp Rat]

296. Thank you EarlG, Elad, Skinner, and all DUers that have contributed

:grouphug:

Well, I lost a lot of sleep over this issue, especially last night, but I am glad things are getting cleared up before it's too late. We are at the most critical point in the battle to save the electoral process.

I have been a daily reader at DU since 2001 and I stand by the veracity of longtime posters, many of whom are on this thread. I have dissected and deconstructed the debates, conversations and news headlines posted here - Derrida would be proud - hoping to get a handle on things.

My contributions are minuscule, but at least they are untainted by greed and the need for personal accolade. This applies to all the DUers that have helped in their own way. We are a collective, and as such, to quote Howard Dean, "we have the power!"

With great humility, I thank everyone for working to save the dream that is America.

I love you all.

peace from New Orleans

[vol5516]

297. ??

Does anyone else see the bipolarity in Ms Harris????

[Kelvin Mace]

407. It has been speculated on

[bunny planet]

636. I suggested it the other day, and was told I was projecting!

She clearly has some personality disorder listed in the DSM, probably several.

[krag]

299. Don't Understand - Why Ban Bev Now?

At this moment, when we are at such a critical juncture concerning the future of the country?

Even if Bev somehow singlehandedly burns DU to the ground, isn't that a worthwhile sacrifice if something posted here might lead to the breakthrough in this fraudulent election we're all looking for?

I love these boards, DKos and DU, but they seem a little bit full of themselves. Isn't preserving democracy a little more important than preserving DemocraticUnderground.com?

[IAMREALITY]

301. Not About That

I'm sure any important developments that come from her will still be posted or referenced here in the blink of an eye.

"Even if Bev somehow singlehandedly burns DU to the ground, isn't that a worthwhile sacrifice if something posted here might lead to the breakthrough in this fraudulent election we're all looking for?"

Absolutely Not

[Stand and Fight]

308. You're Completely Missing th e Point.

Go read the archives, read up her Bev's history, and then let's see what you have to say. It's a long complex story that led the moderators to make their decision. Your trying to jump in on the mix without knowing all the facts is like walking into an astrophysics class and attempting to give a verbal dissertation after having only read the class syllabus.

[KoKo]

316. GACK! An Academic Response when the person is really asking "Why Now?"

ayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!

[IndyPriest]

329. Thank you, KoKo. n/t

[dweller]

498. aaaccckkkk!

speaking of jumping into the mix, after your ...um...3 week experience here, you are now attempting to walk into the class and give instruction after reading 'the archives' ??

okay, you are 3.

dp

325. I agree 500 percent with you

NEVER fire anyone at a critical point in a project.

NEVER fire anyone without first having a better replacement!

[JohnnyCougar]

400. Apparently, you know nothing about how projects work

Bev is a loon, and she had better goddamned well have proof. Even if she has proof, the MSM will never believe her, after she lies about the only reporter acknowledging this story.

[robbedvoter]

369. democracy may not survive W, but it can surely survive banning Bev

That's why being passionate about issues and not people is healthier - it helps you keep perspective.
besides, if you read the statement in the opening, preservation was not the point.

[Maddy McCall]

377. LOL @ your header.

So true, so true.

[CarbonDate]

302. Thanks for doing this

I know you're going to catch a lot of hell from her supporters, but it was the right thing to do.

[IAMREALITY]

307. Results of The Poll

Totally Agree with the banning -49% 41 votes

Totally Disagree with the banning - 11% 9 votes

LOOKS LIKE THE TOTALLY AGREE HAVE A MANDATE!

hehe

:hi:

[AmyCrat]

309. You should post the other answers too n/t

[IAMREALITY]

311. Ya know, YOU coulda done it....

just teasin...

21% 18 votes Not Sure

19% 16 votes Too new here to fully understand the issue.

:)

[Stand and Fight]

310. LOL...

Yeah, only in our case -- the results aren't fixed and we do actually have a mandate!

:think:

[IAMREALITY]

314. Yeah,

So We Don't even NEED a Crackpot to investigate the accuracy!!

:evilgrin:

[Cornus]

312. That's 50 TOTAL votes

Out of how many registered users? Guess it is a mandate, kind of like the last election!

[spotbird]

318. link to poll please nt

[AmyCrat]

319. see? I can be helpful (link to poll)

just teasing :P


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x110218

[spotbird]

320. Yep your helpful, thanks! nt

[symbolman]

392. I demand a recount!

And I have juicy information that I will share with you soon that will prove that there is voter fraud here..

Send me 55 gallon drums of M&M's with all the yellow ones removed.

Bev actually won with 127% of the vote :)

Wait, that doesn't add up.. now I'm going to have to sue myself for fraud, but I'll be waiting for my camera crew to arrive, even tho I'm not making a film..

[americanstranger]

399. Check the dumpster.

Gotta be something in there. :)

-as

[AmyCrat]

405. you ask too much... I will NOT part with my M&M's! n/t

323. I think this is bad, mainly because there is no replacement

One thing you know in business is that you ALWAYS have a replacement before you "fire" someone, when they are crucial.

[IAMREALITY]

327. She Didn't Work For Us

Nor does this stop her work. Nor does it keep us from hearing about her work. And in business, you ALWAYS fire somebody if they harm your organization, and when someone tries to bring a company down with threats etc, they can never be postively crucial to that company...

[Walt Starr]

341. The first rule of management

No individual is EVER so important they can never be fired.

Nobody is irreplaceable.

[Maddy McCall]

350. She made herself the center of the movement on purpose...

to create "job security."

[KoKo]

378. Well..."Maddy" you seem to feel about Bev the way I feel about "Tweety."

I never give up an opportunity to go after him for his whorish behavior and "finger in the wind" style on his show. I've been accused of "hating" Matthews...I detest him...but he's beneath my hate... You seem to have the same feelings towards Bev...

Who knows? I think Bev's done more for us that Tweety...but since I'm blinded by my detest of Tweety it's probably the other way around. :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

390. I don't have blind hatred of Bev, if that is what you are insinuating.

I have intense dislike for anyone who steals a movement, uses people, threatens people, takes money from people for personal gain, smears those who have helped them, and then has their minions harrass the detractors.

With Bev out of the way, though, perhaps the true business of election fraud can go on.

I've noticed that you are responding to my posts quite frequently. Because I questioned Bev two nights ago, some people have id'd me as the "leader" of some kind of anti-Bev force. They are wrong.

When leaders act in ways they shouldn't, I question them. It isn't personal with me. Is it becoming personal with you?

[Zomby Woof]

738. That is because...

I was the leader of the anti-Bev movement, bought and paid for by Karl Rove.

What I would really like is an apology, a groveling apology, from the DUers on this thread who once flamed me for being suspicious about Bev Harris, and have now come around to my way of thinking... it is good to see that they are enlightened now, but I want the groveling apologies, dammit. :evilgrin:

[wiggs]

328. Andy?

Perhaps Andy can keep us updated?

[Junkdrawer]

332. I know it's totally unbelievable but, maybe, just maybe, Bev...

has attracted the *ahem* attention of some powerful foes who maybe, just maybe have mounted a campaign to discredit her.

But that, of course, is just another crazy conspiracy theory.

Well, Bev does indeed have one overriding flaw: She thinks that just because she has a fishing pole, she can land a whale. What she fails to understand is that whales often look for the tasty tidbits on the other side of fishing poles.

[IAMREALITY]

333. What Are You Talking About??? Whales Eat PLANKTON!! n/t

[Junkdrawer]

381. Not all whales eat plankton...

:hi:

[robbedvoter]

391. True. Pearl, Mr Krabs daughter, doesn't. But how many whales

descend from a crab? (SpongeBob is written by a marine biologist so stop saying that).

[Junkdrawer]

397. Hmmm...Pearl "eating" Plankton...

Now THERE's an ugly thought....

[Maddy McCall]

420. Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Oh god, you are killing me tonight. :toast:

[Kelvin Mace]

414. You are correct

it is just another crazy conspiracy theory.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Lone_Star_Dem]

337. It's a shame it had to come to this.

I fully understand the reasons that DU had for banning her. I cannot say I would have been as understanding as the Admins here have been. One threat of a lawsuit for me us usually enough to leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

Thanks EarlG for deciding to post this as public information. I shudder to thing of all the rumors that would have erupted otherwise.

[Name removed]

343. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

345. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

352. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

368. Most folks I've seen here are "name changers." ???? and then there's

the folks with "pitchforks" and "torches." :D

(excuse my typo's which I attempted to correct..)

[Maddy McCall]

379. I didn't change my name because of Bev Harris

if that's what you are insinuating. I changed my name because the time period to change it was established by admin, and when I joined DU, I used a distortion of my name, thinking that I would be able to change it once I got into my options. I wasn't able to, though.

Had I been able to change my name immediately after joining DU three years ago, I would have changed it to what it is now.

[IndyPriest]

387. Newbie here, no name change

Can't speak for all newbies. Can't find all the words, sometimes, to speak for myself. But fwiw, I've been following all 6 (or is it now 7) threads because they provide alot of insight into this "family."

Don't know if this comment will help, now, because this portion of the thread is being deleted. As I say, fwiw.

[Walt Starr]

546. Name changing ended on November 22

so it's impossible for anybody to have changed their name over this unless they started a completely new name.

[Malikshah]

357. Odd is most certainly the word

to describe this thread as well as alll the others regarding this issue.

Strange that people are dancing to the tune.

It feels as if DU has stepped into Rod Serling's neighborhood.

I haven't seen this sort of behavior since high school when someone from a clique was ostracized and everyone got their digs in w/o fear of retribution.

A fascinating sociological study-- Post Nov 2 DU threads... :)

[T Town Jake]

366. Me, neither...

...and I suspect the answer is "Or something."

[garybeck]

347. will Bev sue anyone who says "BBV"?

Maybe this has been covered already... But from all this is seems Bev is really protective of her BBV name, for whatever reason.

So I'm wondering, is she going to sue the people planning the "Black Box Tea Party" in New York City?

http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/articles/1211-nyc-protest.html

Am I going to get sued for using the words Black Box Voting on my website, without putting a "registered trademark" next to it?

this all seems crazy.

[IAMREALITY]

348. I Certainly Hope Not...

BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting
BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting BBV Black Box Voting

[AmyCrat]

360. That like saying Coke is going to sue us for saying the work Coca-Cola

Not how it works.

[IAMREALITY]

363. I know LOL

Hence My Sarcasm. Course, Coca Cola at least DOES own the trademark.

:)

[robbedvoter]

364. How about "alleged" BBV?

:shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

382. She can't, because DUers came up with the term "black box voting"

[Maddy McCall]

422. Correction: The Duer named David Allen (Plan9_Pub) came up with it

See his post below. He said that he came up with the term, has proof, and will contest any attempt by Bev to trademark it.

David's got the goods on Bev, and that is why she won't wrangle with him anymore.

[Kelvin Mace]

418. No, she can't.

As I have mentioned enough times that I expect a Bev minion to accuse me of bragging, I coined both "black box voting" and "bbv". I have the email from Bev documenting it. When we first discussed the book, we needed a name to be on the contract, which was "Secret Ballots". Neither of us liked this, but it was okay for the contract. Later, I sent Bev a list of possible titles, one of them was "Democracy in Peril: Black Box Voting" Bev loved the subtitle and wanted that for the title. So it became "Black Box Voting: Democracy in Peril", but that still seemed cryptic to me, so I changed it to what I felt was more informative, "Black Box Voting: Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century."

I then spent a week roughing out cover ideas and came out with one which I gave to Brad Guigar who did the actual cover.

I have not trademarked either term and have publicly stated that they may be used by anyone for non-commercial purposes. I will contest any attempt to trademark them.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[wrate]

370. Fair enough. n/t

[valis]

389. It was about time. Sorry it ended this way.

But it was predictable as it follows a pattern of behavior. I hope it does not damage the verified voting movement many people have been building.

[AnIndependentTexan]

415. I'm still up for peace between all DU members

We are a community and some feel this place is family. If you believe in peace then maybe now is the time to show it and come together. We are our own leaders when it comes to this movement. Democratic Underground is were the battle started for democracy and that is a bigger fight. I say we all come together to SAVE OR RESTORE ARE DEMOCRACY. That is the true fight!

[AmyCrat]

417. hehe -- there's dysfunctions in all families ;) n/t

[peacetalksforall]

416. I am really shocked at this thread....

I have spent more time than I have available reading DU because I a worried sick about my country and voting is probably at the top of my concerns.

I've been here a long time and tonight I sign off very disallusioned about a number of things. I am wondering if I'm living another delusion. There is the delusion that I was raised on that every vote should count. With this thread I feel I'm living another delusion - that Duers work together. I am feeling extremely uneasy because I've managed to miss about 90% of the 'accused madness of Bev Harris' I don't know how the threads that relate to the accusations against her went over my head. I was aware of some defensive messages she sent that were greatly supported by other posters, but I realized that I didn't and couldn't know some histories and they didn't seem important compared to the greater effort of exposing the voting problems. I didn't think anything was out of the ordinary given the obsession and time limits of solving the riddles and trying to educate election officials, plus human nature.

Ok, given that I missed her 'accused madness', I am now wondering about the specificity of another of the reasons she is being attacked - the one about asking for help. Will people also turn on Will Pitt or anyone else who asks for help and berate the help that everyone gives him or someone else?

I am not battling against any decision of the DU organizers - they know what has gone down and what they can tolerate.

But I'm sick about the piling on - it's something of an e-stoning by people who weren't even around and who just walked up to the crowd in the town square. I am stunned by the one sidedness of this thread and all the me-too's. I am ending the evening with a lot of doubt about the energy that has gone into the me-too attacks. What is wrong with Bev Harris pales in importance to the common cause.

As of yesterday there were many people cheering her and thanking her - this thread is very strange.

[Imagevision]

433. OMFG -- KO AND DU. DECIDE TO DROP BEV HARRIS?!?!?!

That's realy brilliant...I wonder who will be replacing her here at DU? Keith now has one less polital savvy investigative reporter to share news/views with...

At a time when we need all we can muster to keep a great team of committed people to keep on with whatever progress/news that should be moved around to get rid of this whacko in the white house, someone says; we didn't need her anyway?

Got news for some...we needed 100 more Bev Harris's...!

[AmyCrat]

436. perplexing...

KO was never in touch with her in a productive way, and allegedly, that was her doing.

And no one said we don't need her. What was said is her beligerent behavior won't be allowed to be posted here anymore. There's a big difference.

Just because someone is a brilliant investigator it doesn't give them an excuse to walk all over people, especially if it's at the EXPENSE of the cause itself.

[T Town Jake]

451. And another new poster weighs in with expert commentary...

...on a situation that has been brewing for 18 months at DU. :eyes:

Just FYI, "Imagevision": you and your fellow Harris sycophants aren't fooling anyone.

[dweller]

481. while 8 month old T_T_J chimes in with

such sage advice . . .


<cough>



i believe i'll call you '1'
dp

[T Town Jake]

489. Well, to be perfectly honest...

...I could care fucking less what you choose to "call" me. I'm not the one who signed on here practically overnight just to go to bat for a raving loon like Bev Harris, unlike the poster that was the subject of my reply. Have I cleared that up for you?

[TruthIsAll]

529. YOU'RE SO RIGHT. WHILE EVERYONE DISSES BEV, ROVE IS HAVING A BIG LAUGH

As I said before, there are a lot of hot-heads who threaten to sue, sue, sue. And nothing comes of it. So what?

Bev has an ego. No question. She has said many things she should not have. She has made mistakes. Haven't we all?

Maybe I'm naive. But I've been around DU for a while and I only can comment on Bev's work, not her threats.

Bev is passionate. She IS an asset, regardless of her approach and personality.

I don't give a damn if she once stole Clinton cigars. She never stole our democracy. She never stole our vote.

We need more of her kind, warts and all.

[Maddy McCall]

582. Nah, Rove would be quaking now because we've ditched the baggage

that was holding us back, and TRUE activist leaders will emerge to fill the void.

As long as bev was there, he had nothing to fear, because he knew that no one would believe such an irrational person.

[T Town Jake]

612. "Maybe I'm naive"....

...I couldn't have put it better myself. Let me clue you in on something, pal: to the extent that he would've cared, Rove would've had a much BIGGER laugh at the joke Bev & her bots have made of themselves when it comes to this issue. Harris has shredded every last scrap of credibility she ever possessed, and has hurt the vote fraud investigation immeasurably with her clownish, vitriolic behavior. Time to grow up.

[T Town Jake]

434. Shocked! I'm shocked I tell you!...

...yeah, right. And I'm one of Santa's little elves... :eyes:

[dweller]

449. the correct reply

couldn't have come from one more so aptly named.

thank you higher class

see you out there,
dp

[peacetalksforall]

549. higher class comes from my original statement tag at DU...

little people are of a higher class when it comes to honor and integrity than those who claim they bring it.

[Bethany Rockafella]

430. Damn that was a well written notice!

It kind of turned me on. I know... I'm weird.

[Maddy McCall]

432. Welcome to DU.

Your post perplexes me, though. :-)

[ConsAreLiars]

435. This is a very bad mistake. I hope you reconsider. I rely on DU

to provide a wide spectrum of voices on a great variet of topics of importance. Cutting me off from the kinds of information and

There are always principled differences, rivalries, personality clashes, factions, disinfo, trolling, or however you want to to characterize some of those disputes.

My view is that those who DO SOMETHING to defend democracy have the right to work as they best see fit and defend themselves against false claims. I agree that some conflicts, like those involving Bev's original publisher over book royalties and chapter credits, are best settled elsewhere, but that is a small aggravation -- nothing compared to the silencing of one of our clearest voices.

Too bad you choose to choose to ban a real activist who gets attacked rather than the attackers.

Too bad.

[Malikshah]

438. Nice response-- and so very very needed.

Going through this thread and watching it grow has been one of the sickest saddest things I've seen on DU.

It's shocking, actually to see. Vultures descending on a carcass.

A mob turning on a someone who's fallen after a battle to rend it to pieces.

This is what this whole process has come to-- control the voices? Control the information?

I guess some would say that it got out of hand and something had to be done...well, the aftermath shows that ridding the boards of one person hasn't stopped the bloodbath. Maybe calmer heads will prevail in the end.

Maybe some soul-searching and reflection will make people realize what this whole situation has become.

It's like the middle of the sanitarium in "The Snake Pit" at this point.

[AmyCrat]

441. ask yourself why

"This is what this whole process has come to-- control the voices? Control the information?"

Ask yourself why. And ask yourself who is trying to control voices. It didn't start out of no where, and there's a greater point that's been made repeatedly.

She does good work.
She needs a PR person.

[Malikshah]

442. Actually-- with the lack of control here

I'm a bit scared to "ask myself why"--

This thread is growing at an enormous rate-- it's a chat room at this point.

I've read as much as I can on both sides, and let me tell you, the BBV site provides a much prettier picture than the snake pit that is this thread.

Guess someone had to be banned in order to control the plethora of threads...it's not working, alas.

[americanstranger]

460. Lack of control?

Let's remember - EarlG or Skinner never threatened to sue Bev Harris.

Bev Harris, however, did threaten to sue DU.

Tell me about 'lack of control.'

-as

[Maddy McCall]

470. If she's objective, she'll read the links I posted for her below.

If she reads those links and still believes that Bev has self-control, then she's too emotionally invested with Bev to see clearly.

[Maddy McCall]

469. Here's how long this has been brewing.

Sure it's going to get responses. And sure bev's story is going to be prettier.

If you want to know what really happened from when it really happened, read this:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1330558
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606666
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1993788

[Malikshah]

535. Yup same old mob mentality

Sorry-- this whole thing smacks of middle school angst at this point.

No one can defend themselves in as poisoned an environment as this.

Have fun folks picking at the bones. Make sure to get the marrow.

[americanstranger]

439. Get your Bev Harris updates here -

http://blackboxvoting.org

Like someone said upthread - that's what it's there for, right?

-as

[rodeodance]

459. seems there is a willy nilly policy related to payment for records.

and that rules are made up as you go.
I hope this one of the problems that gets addressed at the hearings.

http://blackboxvoting.org

....Updated FRIDAY DEC. 3, 2004: LePore ups the ante: $3,000 ... no, $4,000 ... no, $7,000 for election records.

Though she has yet to present us with a bill, Theresa LePore has been upping the ante every time she talks to the media. It will be at least $3,000, she told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is ... $4,000, she told the Palm Beach NBC affiliate.

Now the $4,000 is for "research" and the $3,000 is for "copies."....

[ConsAreLiars]

473. I have great respect and admiration for many here on DU.

Sure I can check some other site for their updates, but I really values DU because I can find such a broad range of resources here. Losing up to the minute updates on the actions of an activist like Bev is no less a loss than hearing in real time (more or less) about the latest Flash media produced by you or Symbolman

I thank you for what you do. I thank Bev. I would regard banning you if you were subjected to repeated peresonal attacks in the same way I ragard this action - as a loss for us all.

[Kelvin Mace]

486. A moment of your time, if I may

I agree that some conflicts, like those involving Bev's original publisher over book royalties and chapter credits, are best settled elsewhere, but that is a small aggravation -- nothing compared to the silencing of one of our clearest voices.

As the publisher in question I really love how your trivialize what has damn near ruined my reputation and my livelihood. You say Bev is entitled to defend herself against "false claims" but for some reason I am just supposed to shut up when false claims (read: vicious lies) are made against me.

Bev ran around telling people I cheated her AND NEVER PAID HER A DIME. According to you I wasn't supposed to post proof that this was a lie, I was just supposed to let people believe what she said because, after all, she's Bev Harris, SaviourOfDemocracy.org(tm), (.ORG, not .COM)

In battle, it is very noble of a soldier to fall on a grenade to save his comrades. What is NOT noble is for his comrades to shove him onto the grenade and when he tries to issue a nolle prosequi, they criticize at him for not being a "team player".

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

490. Deleted - wrong spot

[ConsAreLiars]

508. David. I accept that you acted in good faith.

Whatever the merits of the dispute, I meant only to say that I regarded the discussion here on DU as only a minor aggravation, not something that was intolerable. I've been around long enough to have learned that good people sometimes disagree and, from my own experience, sometimes good people lose sight of the bigger picture. I don't know enough about the contract dispute to reach a verdict, but I can respect you both for the work you have done.

[Kelvin Mace]

550. I respected her work as well

and said so on many occasions. The reverse wasn't true, alas.

Unfortunately, this not about good people disagreeing, after reading some posts on Bev's own site

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=108750&mesg_id=111218&page=

I am concerned about Bev's grasp of reality.

Did you read the threads from Maddy where Bev first went public on me? You really need to read Bev's own words to understand what I and many others have suffered though at her hands.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[ohio_liberal]

553. David, I am so desperately sorry....

I read all the links provided and I'm just so sad for all the people who were wrongly accused of foul play. I wonder if this movement couldn't have been 10x what it is today if so many hadn't been stomped along the way.

[buddysmellgood]

443. I sent BBV $100 that I couldn't afford.

But your judgement seems very fair to me.
If Bev doesn't want to play by the rules, then she can break them and deal with the consequences.

[smartvoter]

446. I read her posts at here site and I don't think she gets it.

I just read where she talked about dealing with Olbermann and she openly said that she threated with her lawyer but doesn't see why that would put someone off.

Also, she basically wrote her attitude off as a double standard for women. In some cases, there are, but if you run around with legal threats like she did there, and here, it doesn't matter what sex you are. It closes doors.

She also seemed to think we wanted to quash the Volusia investigation. Note the following exerpt:

"The timing of today's ban was very interesting. I've been noticing that the attacks have escalated since we began publishing information about Volusia County. In fact, a curiousity is that we have gotten some surprising resistance to our investigation from some individuals associated with the Democratic Party and/or the Kerry campaign, which doesn't make any particular sense to me, since the facts in Volusia County seem to point to local problems that are not systemic, not spread across the rest of Florida, and can't affect the Kerry campaign."

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=1&viewmode=threaded

There are several other posts with various takes/comments. The good news is she says she's trying to make it right with MSNBC.

[AmyCrat]

447. I read this over there and for the first time got downright mad

When I read this over there...

Curious, I decided to test the theory that Volusia County investigations, for some inexplicable reason, are touching a nerve with the Democrats. I created a Democratic Underground thread with the Volusia County update, thinking I'd observe it to see if the moderators locked it. It was well received, and professionally written.

Within an hour, the mods not only locked it, but banned me from posting for life.

...I was angry. She doesn't have time to call back volunteers, but to engage in this kind of speculation and posting nonsense? (ALL the BEV threads were being closed at that point, as I remember it).

(this is a duplicate reply from the other thread -- which will inevitably get closed too)

[smartvoter]

452. Her posts are bizarre. She just doesn't see it.

Very strange for someone who's done PR -- she has no ability to see her part in any of this -- that we all saw legal threats in threads here, Olbermann said they were threatened (she admitted it, even) and the DU crew said the same thing. You just can't operate that way.

[AmyCrat]

453. volken mind-meld again SV :P

[AmyCrat]

454. and I supposed it's a conspiracy now since the other VC thread was closed

n/t

[smartvoter]

457. It didn't take her long to say we're part of the fraud problem, or

the cult-like people who wrote behind her. There are only a couple of them, but that's probably enough for her to feel justified.

They need to be saying, "WTF?"

[Eloriel]

554. IMO, this is an example

of how her justifiable paranoia runs rampant, into quite UNjustifiable paranoia. That excerpt from her site you quoted above really is bizarre. It's also an example of narcissism -- if you're a narcissist, nothing is ever your fault; you didn't have any part whatseover in any bad results, but you had EVERYthing to do with any good results or outcomes.

Newt Gingrich has always been my favorite example of how a narcissist behaves. I remember when he had a run of shooting off his mouth with incredible, jaw-dropping stuff which had heads turning and tongues wagging (blaming Susan Smith on the Democrats and calling for more orphanages are just two that I remember from that time period), and he blamed the media because people were appalled by some of the things he said. The media were only reporting what he himself had said, but it was the media's fault that he looked bad. That's a Class A narcissist for ya.

[Jersey Devil]

456. Instead of trying to mend fences she goes to war - reminds me of the movie

"Michael" with John Travolta, in which he plays a rather seedy archangel who fights and chants "Battle!" before ramming a bull headon.

[smartvoter]

461. Yeah. Wonder how many people out here that gave her $$$ are going to blow

when they see they're now labeled "part of the conspiracy."

You almost couldn't script someone less adept in dealing with people.

[AmyCrat]

465. ya know I didn't even THINK of that!!!

and it just makes me madder :argh: cause I'm one of those people! I don't regret giving her $$ but I can't believe how quick she is to accuse people.

and this is from someone who DOES support her WORK: I certainly HOPE this isn't how she's determining who engaged in election fraud.

[smartvoter]

476. Well, the work is important.

I think the reason everyone got so damned wound up is so many have their hopes (and pocketbooks) invested in their work that it's hard to watch stupidity destroy the effort.

On that happy note, I'm done for the night. Have a good one.

[salin]

572. I read it... and laughed

it was so absurd.... and so perfectly Bev Harris as I have read her since she first appeared on the scene at DU.

Yes, all of us skeptics at DU aren't really skeptics, we have been posting for years just to build up "credibility"... but really we are all operatives for "them"... and thus worked to ensure that at the right moment.... we would quell an investigation of Bev's in Volusia County.... bwahahahuahahahahah

[Rev. Day-Bu]

450. I'm broken-hearted

I'm totally disillusioned about D.U. now, and am just plain heartbroken to see this happening. Bev Harris is one of the greatest, most important heros of this election season. And let's be honest here--D.U. has been a fantastic meeting place and a too for organizing and energizing the core members of the Democratic Party, but as much as D.U. has done, Bev Harris has done immeasurably more by taking action, by hauling her ass (and Andy's) across the whole country to directly confront the scumbags the rest of us just talk about. She's out there busting her ass bigtime for democracy and for everything America stands for, and we've BANNED like indignant little kids with an exclusive club house?

I'm totally disillusioned and broken-hearted to see D.U. shoot itself in the foot like this. I think I feel just a little bit like the parent who discovers the child he loves so much is now shooting smack into his arm. I wish there was something I could do about this, but I'm sure there's not. The admins will do what they feel they have to. I can disagree, I can be upset, disillusioned, and even genuinely broken-hearted as I am, but I guess I can't change it.

I know I've only been an occasional contributor and participant, but I'm afraid you'll see even less of me after this. The lustrous shine has worn off D.U. for me, and I'm really disappointed to see what lies beneath.

I'll miss y'all. Really, I will. And please feel to drop by the Old American Century/White Rose Society forums to say hello and throw in your own 2 cents.

With heavy heart and deep disappointment...

[Vinnie From Indy]

464. Yeah That's A Shame! What's For Breakfast?

Bev is kinda like our LaToya Jackson now.

[salin]

577. In the sense that she transformed herself

into a medusa-esque figure - promoting and enriching herself while working tirelessly to discredit innumerous bbv activists along the way. Give me 10 researchers from Stanford or MIT and a slew of grassroots level activists that get attention by acting locally anyday. I have no belief that even if there was broad scale enough fraud in this past election that it could be overturned. However, I do believe that ongoing local work - pulling in local media... getting that attention by having credible work on the problems/glitches/issues (hence keep the reputable researchers working) - CAN very likely have an impact over the coming years and that impact is very important to our democracy.

Bev seems to be more interested in USING the issue to create her own, private (and enrichening?) side-show.

I have stayed out of most of these threads/debates for years. Forever, it seemed that 90% of the posts would be fawning blind admiration... at first I followed the issue but didn't have time to be involved (working on other issues at the time) - so I kept up a cursory following... I KNEW about the Clinton Cigars... and vowed to take bev with a grain of salt, thinking that her imp work outweighed her past opportunism but that I would always keep a healthy skepticism about her motives... then there was the Roxanne villification/flare up. And still forever, so it seemed, the masses on those threads would take bev's side on each next betrayel she heaped on the next target/duer. It has only been recently that I have seen more folks speak in questioning of her motives in her constant show-boating/fund raising. Maybe, it occured to me, there were many DUers like myself... who didn't want to add to distract from the important bbv work, or add to vitriol on DU, who just didn't weigh in...

[Maddy McCall]

467. You are so deep in the bullshit that you can't see clearly.

How on earth can you say that bev has done more than DU?

Here's some reading materials for you...perhaps you can educate yourself:

>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1960084#1967764
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1993788&mesg_id=2000755&page=
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2021230
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1330558
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2606666
>http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1993788

[smartvoter]

468. LOL! Maddy, don't beat around the bush, tell us how you really feel.

[Maddy McCall]

472. It's the "Bev is bigger than DU" posts that are the most outrageous.

They think that Bev just popped out of thin air to lead a movement that had never existed before her. They need to learn that it is BECAUSE of DU that there is a Bev and a BBV cause.

:grr:

[Rev. Day-Bu]

507. It's a deep, wide river

[Chili]

520. not taking sides, just sayin':

...CHRIST that's interesting reading.

Only comment I'm going to make, then I'm outta here, ain't coming back: it makes my skin crawl to think that the person spear-heading the most important and patriotic movement yet in this century once sold "Clinton Cigars" on a website and is linked financially to a right-wing gun-nut. That's just repugnant.

And people wonder why John Kerry and the Democrats kept their distance?

There, I said it.

Thanks much for the links. I remember all this going on in my early lurking days this past summer, it all went over my head.

[T Town Jake]

482. "...I'm afraid you'll see even less of me after this" Well, boo-hoo...

...and the downside for us is...what? :shrug:

Don't let the door hit ya and all of that, pal. It's not like many of us were waiting on the edge of our seats with baited breath for the next posted kernel of wisdom from Rev. Day-Bu in the first place...

[Rev. Day-Bu]

506. Have fun!

"Don't let the door hit ya and all of that, pal. It's not like many of us were waiting on the edge of our seats with baited breath for the next posted kernel of wisdom from Rev. Day-Bu in the first place..."


You're a great person! Give yourself a hug! :pals:

[dweller]

463. In these darkest of days that i've ever lived

why should i be suprised at the snuff of one more bright light?


Sorry Admin and Mods, but you've given us every possible method of ignore, block, alert and hideaway to make this the most enjoyable experience.
And it's still not enough for the few determined to be louder than the rest. Now, i wonder . . .just who did they learn that from?



Peace

dp

[symbolman]

466. It's human nature to not want to admit

when you have been DUPED.

Think about this.. Maybe BUSH didn't NEED to cheat.. maybe all he needed were people that REFUSED TO SEE that he was FLEECING THEM.

Juse keep saying what people want to hear over and over - promise them new horizons and cities on the hill.. same old crap we hear a million times on the tube from the same politicians..

Meanwhile they empty your wallet.

Maybe there are more suckers in the Democratic Party than we realise.. My eyes have certainly been opened by the tactics used here by the bborgs.

Don't they think it's just as immoral to get a few usernames and go fill up threads for someone as it is to vote over and over?

Some of them have been STUFFING THE BALLOT BOX right here.

It's the SAME THING.

[smartvoter]

471. You are right. Sadly.

[Forkboy]

475. Who wants some punch?

[dweller]

484. hit me

down
not out.

dp

[ClintCooper2003]

487. Perhaps some counseling would help her.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

488. She threatened to sue DU. DU rightfully canned her.

DU would have been justified in banning her for life for the first legal threat.

They choose to provide this forum for as long as they think it benefits their causes. They have no obligation to expose themselves by entanglement with someone seeking to harm their interests or causes.

[Kelvin Mace]

492. BEV CLAIMS GEORGE BUSH ON HER SIDE!!!!

This is beyond sureal:

8. "Please do not bash 'freepers' -- here's why"
In response to message #7

that is a term that comes from Free Republic, a political forum. Free Republic has had some outstanding discussions on voting machine integrity in the past. I have gotten some good consultation from "freepers."

We are nonpartisan. Everyone who's not a criminal wants clean elections. One of our board members, Jim March, has done some fantastic work on this issue, and I guess you'd describe him as a "freeper" -- he's a gun lobbyist who supports George Bush.

You may be very surprised at who's in our corner on this issue. In fact, George Bush ordered my book, had it overnighted.

Thanks.

Bev

Bev's grip on reality has completely vanished.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AmyCrat]

493. David... I'm getting ready for bed and this may give me nightmares (g)

This is just completely out of bizarro-land...

or as my daughter might say...

"from opposite world"

[Kelvin Mace]

500. Most of the folks over there

are completely in her thrall.

Also, check out her answer to one person who asks why the tape isn't on the web. She gives an answer completely different than what she said here:

I agree. We need to switch to a particular web host"
In response to message #0

who specializes in "problem children" hack targets. We have identified a specialist web host, who handles corporate accounts that get nonstop hacking.

We have a redesigned web "look" done by a wonderful volunteer. We had a nice clean easy to update site, with a few bells and whistles, but it was compromised and we will need to rebuild from scratch using different software, recommended by the security-specialist web host.

We also, obviously, need to redo this forum. I have purchased new software. The history of this forum is that its security was compromised more than a year ago, and I have zero faith in its security right now. It behaves just as strangely for me as it does for you.

I think all the web updates should take place as we migrate to a specialist host, with consultation from them, and we should junk the stuff we've done so far because it seems to have some fairly sophisticated trojans lurking in it.

We are excited about putting video stuff on the Web. We had to wait until the very heavy traffic from the election died down, because the bandwidth was getting maxed on things like video. Also, one of the hackers' techniques was hitting the large bandwidth files over and over to max out bandwidth repeatedly.

I think we'll be making some progress on this next week.

Bev

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=2&viewmode=threaded

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[high density]

517. Archive.org will host her video

They've got megabits upon megabits of free bandwidth. All she has to do is release it into the public domain. Of course that's something I expect that she probably doesn't want to do.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

494. So now she claims McCokespoon is a supporter of counting votes? BWAAAA

George Dubya Bush, stalwart of letting every vote count.

CWAZZZZZYYYY

[Maddy McCall]

497. Delusional, isn't it.

[Maddy McCall]

495. And she admonished her minions from using the word "freeper" since...

she has been receiving support from Free Republic all along.

Can't you see her new shift in strategy? She's going to try to appeal to conservatives. God bless you all, but most of all, send your money.

:eyes:

[Ronbrynaert]

499. Ummm

I just want to say that I've found a lot of great links...believe it or not...on the freepers site.

I still hate them.

But the truth is surfing on that website sometimes does turn up a lot of great stuff.

There is no doubt that both parties are responsible for our election system crisis...although from what I've uncovered so far...it's more like at least a 90% GOP to 10% Dem affair.

But if George Bush wanted to order a book I wrote...I'd tell him to go Cheney himself.

This battle needs to be nonpartisan.

We need lawyers.

We need civil rights attorneys.

We need law professors.

We need law students.

We need statiticians.

There are problems everywhere...and we can't put our faith in the major parties to uncover it.

Peace.

[Kelvin Mace]

501. I don't no which is harder to buy

George Bush ordering the book, or him reading the book.

After all, it contains no hungry, hungry caterpillars.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[AmyCrat]

502. That's IT! That's what I needed so I can go to bed

images of hungry caterpillars...

...eating up little Dubya leaves

(while Bev screams her head off at the caterpillar)

[T Town Jake]

511. Oh, Jeesuz-unbelievable-Keerist....

...But the truth is surfing on that website sometimes does turn up a lot of great stuff - "Ronbrynaert"

So, "surfing" around merry-old Free Republic "sometimes" turns up just some mighty swell "stuff," does it? Did I get that wrong? Pardon me please; I did. The actual quote is: a lot of great stuff. Wow...someone jog my memory, but wasn't it just a scant 24 hours ago that all of Bev's toy soldiers were spamming every available BBV/Vote Fraud thread with "freeper" accusations directed towards any and all dissenters from the Church of Harris orthodoxy? And now we are told that the "freepers" aren't so bad after all; indeed, surfing on that website sometimes does turn up a lot of great stuff.

Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

[marions ghost]

638. This Thing is Huge---and BBV is too small--

Seems like growing pains all of a sudden. GOOD sign to me.

This IS a crisis, but we are moving on a corrective course. It is a hard realization--that however much we still need to work with our allies in gov't, we cannot depend on them entirely. We should expect to, but we can't. They missed the boat on this vital issue and it is we who will have to rescue them.

In recognition of those who HAVE been there: There are many small orgs less visible than Bev out there working on various voting rights issues. But there is no single leader of this movement, no umbrella group. This is both an election protest AND a burgeoning voting reform movement-- and this is Huge. Organization and visibility are what we need now. We the People are going to have to demand, lobby, sue, write, even stand in the rain, to get this on the front burner. Leaders worthy of our trust WILL emerge. But don't wait. Do whatever you can now.

I'm an outsider on the Bev issue. I observe that those involved in this DU debate say that Bev has done some important investigative work. However--obviously she is not getting the votes to be the torch-bearer for such a big and diverse group as we are now becoming. And the job of really cleaning up this election mess is way beyond Bev's scope anyway.

A simple analogy:
A Big Orphan Chick has been hatched. It's not a beautiful creature. We are ALL going to have to look after it for awhile until it gets on its feet. Sooner than you think, it will fly. We ALREADY have many resources--lawyers, statisticians, academics, new media voices. We have alot of brainpower and potential financial support. Just a matter of harnessing it. We have all that we need, and those with a shred of integrity left will join us.

It is WE who have a Mandate, Mr. B**h....

[New Earth]

504. he ordered her book so he could know how to steal the election

DUH.

Seriously thought, that right there gives me more reason to stay away from that board and take her words with a grain of...................seasoned salt.

[Kelvin Mace]

505. And the are the people

who come over here and accuse US of working for Karl Rove.

George Bush just may have ordered the book.

After all, there are eight in my phone book.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[saracat]

510. I read the stuff over there and it was chilling.She really appears to

be delusional. I thought she was just an egocentric person who need help with PR but this is MUCH more than that. Either she is a pathological liar, a con women,both, or loony tunes. Sorry to say folks.
And the groupies that were on this Board seem to have drunk the cool aid .Their responses are weird. They are soooo fawning. Is it possible they aren't real? And where is the one we thought was Bev? Funny he isn't posting there? I am not mentioning his name for fear of "calling "out.

[Jersey Devil]

512. tombstoned (nt)

x

[saracat]

519. I meant on her site!

This led me to wonder about identity!

[robbedvoter]

541. All of the above. No allegiance. She was selling a newsletter

in whoch she was going to market ideas from a pool of about 28,000 people (which hapens to be the exact number of members DU had at that time). it was all on the talion.com the 'umbezzling of a lot of money" part.
The chapter was also promissing to teach aspiring Bevs (for cost) how to get rich by identifying hot button issues and pushing them.
These were discussed on Bartcop Forum 2 years ago. Since, the "umbezzle" champter was removed from the archives and a lot of people have been threatened with lawsuits, slandered and called uh....freepers.

[T Town Jake]

514. Amazing, isn't it?...

...she's simply lost her mind. But I'd lay even odds that we'll be treated to further visits from those among her devout, worshipful following who will insist that we've got it all wrong thanks to our lying eyes - plus that secret Karl Rove paycheck any who oppose Saint Beverly supposedly receives on the sly. :eyes:

[propagandafreegal]

533. Is this for real???

Are you sure it wasn't someone masquerading as Bev?

[robbedvoter]

536. Link:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=8&viewmode=threaded

[Walt Starr]

537. Well, here's her edited version of what happened here

BevHarris
Member since Jul-11-03
1716 posts Dec-03-04, 07:41 PM (PST)

1. "that's been brewing for awhile now"
In response to message #0

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-04 AT 07:41 PM (PST)

Several months back, the Democratic Underground mods started selectively enforcing the rules. Especially beginning around July, when we announced our Qui Tam action, our posts began to be trolled by a handful of "DU" members, who launched personal attacks and engaged in endless personality squabbles.
I tried three different approaches, none of which worked.

- Tried to respond to the attacks. That just fanned the flames.
- Tried ignoring the attacks. That still fanned the flames, and the attacks became more vicious, to the point of libel (e.g. "she's a con man who probably steals credit cards") and when I didn't respond, the attackers would say, "see, if this wasn't true she'd defend herself"
- Tried following "DU" rules and alerting the mods, who usually did nothing about the personal attacks, but threatened to ban me if I used the alert button.

I still posted on Democratic Underground fairly frequently, because it is a good place to vet out arguments. The debate there is more aggressive, since many members don't have any particular loyalty to Black Box Voting, and that is constructive when trying to hone a message.

The timing of today's ban was very interesting. I've been noticing that the attacks have escalated since we began publishing information about Volusia County. In fact, a curiousity is that we have gotten some surprising resistance to our investigation from some individuals associated with the Democratic Party and/or the Kerry campaign, which doesn't make any particular sense to me, since the facts in Volusia County seem to point to local problems that are not systemic, not spread across the rest of Florida, and can't affect the Kerry campaign.

Today, in a post in a "DU" thread pertaining to Palm Beach County, I posted an update about Volusia County. Oddly, this post disappeared. Usually the post just says "delete" but in this case, it disappeared altogether. Vaporized.

Curious, I decided to test the theory that Volusia County investigations, for some inexplicable reason, are touching a nerve with the Democrats. I created a Democratic Underground thread with the Volusia County update, thinking I'd observe it to see if the moderators locked it. It was well received, and professionally written.

Within an hour, the mods not only locked it, but banned me from posting for life.

Bev Harris

Apparently, Skinner, EarlG, and Elad are now in on the Volusia conspiracy.

:eyes:

[underseasurveyor]

542. I see

She plays the poor victim very well. She has that role down pat, the poor poor, after all I have done this is how I am treated, tragic drama queen :puke:

[robbedvoter]

544. uh, so the dems stole it, that's why DU banned her! Playing her new

audience. Watch for your fierce freedom fighter to tyrn all your work upside down. rehabilitating nader (or the attempt) was only a little part of the muddying of waters going on. You'll soon find out you stole your own election. Twice. After you paid for it too.
Matilda
Matilda
Matilda
She take my money
And run Venezuela (or freeperland)

Say Hi to stevetson for me!

[F.Gordon]

552. Well, fuck me. I knew it.

This and her defending freepers? I'm associated with the Democratic Party and the Kerry campaign. As is ohhh... a few million other people...

I really hope that members of her flock are reading this thread.

I called Bev out on that first Volusia County bullshit story because no one else would. While everyone else was creaming their pants, masturbating with their Bev Harris Dildos, I took five minutes to check the facts. While everyone else was eating the Bev Harris razor blades for communion I "shocked" the flock by questioning the good reverend. :eyes:

I also asked her if she was really "non-partisan" twice. Not because I thought she was a Democrat, but because I thought she was fucking right-wing shill.

This makes me fucking sick......

[symbolman]

637. I remember that

and I was SO FREAKING IMPRESSED that I sent that fine (and in 5 minutes) Work you did to everyone I knew and told them.. wake the hell up, LOOK AT what someone found in FIVE MINUTES!

You are the reason I started publicly calling her out myself - that and plus we have OUR movie "Electile Dysfunction" for sale at Buzzflash, and I didn't want the EV movement RUINED for all of us.. the high school LePore crap infuriated me, it was crass and stupid, useless, self-serving, and designed to sell her film that she LIES about not making.. I asked her, "Then why the camera if you're not making a film?" no answer.

You proved she was basically defrauding people in FIVE MINUTES of research..

Love all your metaphors by the way :)

If I had given ANY Money to BBV.org I WOULD DEMAND IT BACK, ALL OF IT, and RIGHT NOW..

YOu might as well have been standing on a New York Times street corner handing it over to a guy with three cards and a folding table, seriously, DEMAND your money BACK - anyone got the time to start a thread demanding their money back from Her? Make a list of who donated at least and get together as a force.

She cost US over a thousand dollars and then lied about it - like, "I don't remember having lunch with you.." then "I paid for the lunch at Salty's.." very nearly in the same sentence.. duped..

Thanks F.Gorden, you opened a LOT of eyes with that work.

[thephaseshift]

580. So, what part isn't true?

Is she lying? She's just summarizing how she came to be closed out of DU. So what? Why shouldn't I believe her? Because it should be 'obvious' that the DU moderators are telling the truth about everything? I don't know them, so how do I know? I don't know who to believe, but I still don't see a reason not to trust her as of yet. I have no clue why she'd be shut out of discussing Volusia, but that doesn't mean she's obviously lying.

[salin]

587. perhaps because it suggests

that "we" (all of du, not just the admin) are part of some kind of conspiracy tied directly to Volusia.

Quite a trick to be involved in such a long-running conspiracy... waiting for the moment to act in Volusia... sorry I find the whole speculation hysterical - literally and figuratively.

[Walt Starr]

628. The DU moderators had absolutely nothign to do with her banning

It was a decision by the DU administrators, you know, the guys that own this site.

I've learned from harsh reality experience. Skinner doesn't ban people lightly. Skinner did what Skinner had to do because it was affecting DU and the credibility of DU.

I'd trust Skinner over Bev Harris any day of the week, and twice in Sundays!

[KoKo]

585. Good God Amighty! David, that's incredible! Did she get bought off by

the Bushies??? I've been trying here and on other threads to see both sides of Bev and find some good there. Trying to "go down the middle" and defend her "flamboyance," while understanding that DU'ers who worked with her were angry and feel used.

But, your posting this...really just tips me over. "Goodbye Bev" have a nice life... George Bush ordered a copy of her book overnight!!!!!!

I wish you had posted that long ago and I wouldn't have wasted time trying to point out that there are two sides to Bev. I just didn't want our "newbies" disillusioned...but that statement does make me wonder who she works for... Sad...it's caused so much division.

[Maddy McCall]

601. If I was overly aggressive toward you...

I apologize.

:hug:

[KoKo]

605. No problem. we are all upset by this.... Sometimes I'm not very clear...

:hug:

[Kelvin Mace]

650. I posted it as soon as I saw it

And I had to read it a dozen times to be sure I was actaully seeing it.

I do not beleive she has been "bought off", she is just living in "Bev Land".

Did you read the later posts on the same subject?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[underseasurveyor]

496. Damn that outta learn me from now on

To not ignore some of the bickering back and forth threads. Geez reading those archived threads Maddy posted (BTW thanks Maddy), holy moly I had no idea it was THAT bad. Glad I only sent her ten bucks. Also as a fairly faithful reader of Bartcop I missed that exchange too. It happened over the Summer time though, maybe that's partly why :shrug:

How DU and the others personally involved put up with it for so long, with grand dignity I might add, is beyond me.

To those of you that have been used, abused and hurt, I toast and salute your seemingly unending patients and grace :toast:
AND I stand in awe of ALL the fantastic work you still managed to accomplish. Thank You So Much :loveya:

Thank You too Earl, Elad and Skinner :highfivesallaround:

[boi1946]

513. Thank you, DU!

Newbie here. I contributed to BBV, and admire the work Bev has done, but have been really put off by her personal attacks, erratic behavior, and energy used on "he said-she said threads". The work is more important than the personalities involved. And I have been amazed at the amount of work being done on this site, and the amount of information available. I'm becoming a DU Addict (gasp).
Thanks again.

[Guava Jelly]

527. After Reading Post from people so blinded by BEV

I now realize Why people support Bush and are blind to any Negative nugget posted about him.
People only believe what they wish to believe.
And only inform themselves of what they wish to know.
No amount on intervention / deprogramming or even solid smoking gun truth would or could open the eyes of a Bush voter.
Or a Bev Fawner.
They confuse Bush with keeping us safe (even though we were attacked on his watch)
they confuse BEV HARRIS with the cause.( even though countless others are working on it also)

In Closing just 1 last attempt to cut through the fog.
Bush is an idiot and a fraud who's only interest is self serving
Bev is an idiot and a fraud who's only interest is self serving

instructions
1 pick up glass of koolaide
2 check your watch to see what time it is
3 oops you spilled your koolaide
4 throw away cup

[LoZoccolo]

538. Ha ha ha ha!

I like the instructions!

:yourock:

[LanternWaste]

530. I find it a bit distressing

I find it a bit distressing that she will no longer be posting here- but as she has her own website, I guess I can't complain too much.

You guys are going to take a lot of flak for this one, but as a BH supporter, I'll be the first one to say that I think you took the most effective, efficient and diplomatic route to maintain civility on the DU boards.

You guys do a lot of work in keeping the DU a great place to read, post, analyze and discuss and although I may not agree with every decision you make, I've read the rules enough to know what and why you do what you do.

Happy Hols, Skinner.

[fishnfla]

534. LOL-how 'bout the night she "banned herself" from DU?

Had a meltdown here late one night last summer, and requested she be banned! A self-imposed exile, something very prophetic in that.

Also the irony in that an internet-fueled conspiracist is kicked off a web-site. These are crazy times we share.

Message: this action was long overdue

Lesson: dont play with fire, twice, the second burn is worse.

[Kelvin Mace]

547. That was the day she went off on me

and accused me of "stealing" her book.

[RedEagle]

602. Well, you knew this would prompt me to ask, yet again

..because you never answered previously:

"Do you have the rights to sell the book, BlackBoxVoting, to bookstores?"

Just answer yes or no.

And yes, I know you'll talk about me being one of the "minions."

So let's dispense with that and a zillion other ways to obfuscate the issue.

Just answer the question.

There is no other issue here, no other question, no even an opinion. Just a direct question. Simple answer suffices.

[RememberTheCoup]

614. Why do you want to know?

:shrug:

[RedEagle]

618. Because David has never answered the question

[RememberTheCoup]

621. But why did you ask in the first place?

You must be leading up to something. I expect David knows what you're getting at but I have no clue. It sounds like you are asking a question you already know the answer to in order to make a point. Why don't you just make the point directly? If it's true that you have asked this question repeatedly and he has never answered, it's a pretty good bet that he does not intend to. Or maybe he feels he has answered it already and doesn't need to keep answering it. Either way, it's pretty cryptic to anyone just not learning the back story.

[RedEagle]

640. There are two sides to every story

And the one who really has to answer this is David.

Just keep the subject header in mind, there are two sides to every story.


If you want to be good journalists, fair, and all, then you keep in mind that there are more things to be considered than what is presented here.

[Kelvin Mace]

723. Actually there are five or six sides

to the story when Bev is involved.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

726. He asking this question to set me up for

Bev's lie that I violated our contract by selling to book stores, despite the fact that I did so at her instruction.

I would really appreciate it if you would post under your real name and explain your personal connection to bbv.org.

Do your REALLY want to start bring up Bev's old lies? I ask because I am getting VERY tired of protecting her from herself. Ask Bev if she wants me to start discussing how she duped me into believing she was writing the book, when in fact she was simply taking other people's work and postings from here at DU and the bbv.org forums, rewriting then, and passing them off as her own. Tell her to go read the section of her contract dealing with THAT.

Ask her if she would like me to start discussing Steven Hertzberg and how she scammed him?

If you want to pitch Bev's old lies at me, I will pitch the truth of Bev's duplicity back. I am through being her door mat and so are many other people here.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

724. David did answer the question

and has answered it yet again.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Maddy McCall]

624. Because, even though Bev is gone, she will remain...

as she gives marching orders to her sycophants. The post above is a perfect example.

[RedEagle]

643. Sycophats and Bev Bots.....

Well, gee, not like some of you aren't the same, in reverse.
Everytime Bev posted something that was the least bit like getting to the truth the slam fest began.

Please note that posting once is an opinion.

What you've done is way beyond opinion.

Please also take note that, if you were to look at this fairly (not getting into the right or wrong of original posts) the people doing a hit job on the person getting hit are allowed to post numerous times, say numerous things, without any penalty.

By the way, I haven't communicated with Bev at all in the last couple days. So no, no marching orders, not like she could give them to me because I am stubborn.

I believe mistakes have been made on both sides. What caused me to post was the inequaltiy of calling someone on the carpet when others have been so outrageous in their comments and postings. Purposely leaving a thread for people to take more pot shots.

FYI-
I'm in this fight for accountable voting for one thing- my freedom to vote and have that vote counted as cast, for me, my family, everyone.

Oh well, I guess as long as we eat our own, the other side has nothing to fear.

Or we can put aside differences, slights, whatever's currently got you on the toaster, and get the job done.

And you could also take a moment to reflect whether you're doing exactly what the other side wants.

Win the war and worry about the inner skirmishes later.

[T Town Jake]

629. Ahhhh, Jeeze....

...I wondered how long it would take before the long-time professional Bev Bots ginned up enough courage to troll the thread... :eyes:

[Kelvin Mace]

721. I have addressed this issue in the past, and answered the question

No, I did not. Never claimed I had.

Before the book FINALLY started shipping the end of January, Bev informed me she was was printing her own edition to sell to book stores. This was fine with me. She also told me she she was using "her contacts" to get a NAME publisher interested in the book. This was ALSO fine with me and Bev offered me 25% of whatever came of that deal for all the work I had done (I would, of course, sign over all my rights, which was ALSO fine).

What Bev has conveniently forgotten yet again is that I was sitting on a number of book stores orders at the time. I asked her did she want them so she could fill them with her version of the book. BEV TOLD ME TO FILL THEM BECAUSE HER BOOK WOULDN'T BE READY FOR ANOTHER MONTH AND SHE DIDN'T WANT THEM TO WAIT!

So, I did what Bev WANTED me to do and Bev later turned around and lied about it.

In February she told me she was talking to Harper-Collins about the book. I said fine. She then told me that I would get 10%, because, after all, I really had not done any significant work on the book. I grit my teeth and told her to let me know what happened.

I never found out as Bev said the deal fell through and it was MY fault. I have no idea why it was my fault since I NEVER spoke to anyone from Harper-Collins about the book. In her tirade documented here, she accused me of "scuttling" the deal, something I DID NOT do since I was not a party to any negotiations and something Bev herself did in April when Champion Books (a Division of Penguin) wanted to buy the rights from me and her.

So, if you please, this issue has been asked and answered previously. Please stop pretending it hasn't and please stop continuing to impugn my integrity at Bev's behest.

If Bev wants to take me to court, I will see her there. She will not like the result and I am sure we will have to put up with a new tirade about how the judge is working for Karl Rove.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[fishnfla]

632. I remember. She must have known she was in the wrong, or felt guilty

She even had the tombstone and everything. It was late at night, deep in a thread so not that many people saw it. It was a ugly. I felt real bad for you, David.

It was like the Wicked Witch of the West "I'm melting! ban me!"

[Generic Other]

543. Admins made the only sane decision

All the principal parties involved have always acknowledged Bev's work, even when they were being viciously attacked in irrational "turf" wars started by Bev herself.

Thanks for the restoration of peace on these boards. Now is not the time for war among ourselves. We have votes to recount, fraud to expose, election outcomes to reverse!

[peacetalksforall]

555. I've re-read most of the posts here and feel as bad as I did when I read

the first time.

I feel this is a milestone action for DU and am very troubled that so many are so elated.

I like the word and meaning of inclusive.

I like the words and meaning of "I win-You win" from Transactional Analysis.

I hesitate about the words and impact of winners and losers.

There are winners and losers with this and I hear gloating.

Who's to say who is 'crazy as a loon'.

I thought the enemy was someone else.

[F.Gordon]

565. "I thought the enemy was someone else"

Here, read these Zogby exit poll numbers and you tell me who benefits most from Bev's LIES and BULLSHIT.

Do you feel your vote was counted accurately?
National Numbers / Those that answered YES

Democrat 56.6%
Republican 94.4%
Independent 72.1%

Those that Voted for Bush: 95.2%
Those that Voted for Kerry: 53.3%
Those that Voted for Nader: 39.0%

Progressive: 49.3%
Liberal: 55.1%
Moderate: 69.0%
Conservative: 94.8%
Very Conservative: 94.2%
Libertarian: 82.3%

Male: 80.6%
Female: 69.2%

[peacetalksforall]

598. Just how do politicians who have stolen from us benefit from Bev H's

lies and BS?

Your claim deserves making a case because there is no connection in your statement that can stand on its own.

[salin]

608. unless all who criticize

are presupposed to be on the side of the stealing politicians....

think of it... we are sleeper cells for karl rove

[F.Gordon]

620. Don't ya know? I'm just a poser

Here, have a Razor Blade, say three Hail Bev's, and we'll chat again in 2006 when the Repukes kick our ass again because of low voter turnout with the Democrats.

Happy Holidays!!

[Kelvin Mace]

556. Bev backpedals from the claim, then repeats it

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=17&viewmode=threaded

I don't know why George Bush ordered it. The fact is, he did, or, at least, his personal librarian did, with some urgency. Al Gore read my book, too, and reportedly gave it to Jimmy Carter. John Kerry was given several copies of my book, but apparently never read it.



I do wonder who read it to George Bush.

The wording above was rather unfortunate, it would probably have been more accurate to say:

you may be surprised who's on your side. Many Republicans, and thousands of Libertarians have made this their issue. Candidates on all sides of the political spectrum have ordered the Black Box Voting book. Even George W. Bush ordered it, had it overnighted.

Bev

First she backs away from the claim that Bush ordered the book, then when she clarifies the issue that it was his librarian (Bush has a librarian?) who ordered it, she repeats the same claim and clarifies it as "George W. Bush"

BTW, since things on Bev's site have a tendency of disappearing or being "edited for clarity" I am archiving the posts. I invite others to do likewise.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[thephaseshift]

557. Who has she "hassled"? I'm skeptical.

EarlG says: "A few weeks ago, Ms. Harris again used our website to threaten DU with lawsuits, in her postings, in private messages to other members, and in rude alerts she sent to the moderators.
We sent a message to Ms. Harris telling her to stop hassling our moderators and members, and informing her that if she had a legal concern, she needed to contact us directly."

I haven't been here long but I've following the election threads and Bev's updates religiously. Never once have I ever had the feeling that Bev was attacking anybody. Yet EarlG talks about her having 'hassled' DU members. WHO HERE has been personally attacked by her?? I'm finding the official stance of the DU somewhat lacking in credibility, but on the other hand Bev's account of her dealings with the DU and Olbermann are lacking somewhat too. Mainly, I don't see what would motivate anybody to attack her, and vice versa. Somebody's not telling the whole truth, and I sure don't feel like I'm in a position to judge what's going on. At this point I'm tending towards believing that Bev is the one BEING hassled more than the other way around. Maybe some people here really have a beef with her and worked to get rid of her somehow, I don't know.

An example of weirdness: EarlG talks of her "rude alerts" to the moderators. Bev herself says SHE was the one being attacked, and she was simply alerting the moderators to that fact in hopes that her attackers would be stopped. What's REALLY going on here?

I find it difficult to believe Bev has 'hassled' people here so badly as to get herself banned. Just go read her threads on BBV...none of here supposed 'aggressiveness' is visible in anything I've ever seen her write...there or here.

What's going on??

[LoZoccolo]

560. Ha ha ha ha.

Scroll through the thread and look for a big list of like eight or nine links in a row and read through those.

[robbedvoter]

562. Skeptical is good. Stay this way then read what Walt Starr and David

posted here from her site: W is reading her book, freepers are her friend and dems are afraid of her because she...caught US stealing the elections - so freepers, start paying for juicy secrets!
Or, go to her own site and find those posts for yourself.
here's one:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=8&viewmode=threaded492.

[thephaseshift]

569. Not convinced yet

Sorry guys, I've been reading mostly really boring threads (this one and some threads linked to) and especially skipping to Bev's posts to try and find something - ANYTHING - that she said that would really offend me. No clue about the context, but insulting writing should be obvious. Nothing. I can't find anything anywhere in over an hour of skimming that even begins to convince me that she's evil. At worst, I found references to misunderstandings or lack of patience with touchy-feely people, but even that's hard to corner. Honestly, I'm starting to think that there are a few really touchy people here who take things real personally and blow things out of proportion. Maybe people need to get out into the fresh air more often. No sense of humor, no ability to just roll their eyes and move on.
I'm sick of trying to find quotes from Bev actually attacking somebody in a big way...can you quote something for me? I know I haven't been here long but I trust my instincts, and everything I've read of Bev's myself has been pretty calm and business-like, in spite of rumors galore about her snitty behavior.

[Kelvin Mace]

573. Sorry, but getting to the truth requires hard work

You can't skim quotes becaue you lose context. You are asking us to think for you and if we do that it would be unfair to Bev. Maddy has posted a cluster of links which document some of the more serious exchanges. I just posted hard examples of Bev altering the record to make herself look good.

If you want to know what is going on, you have to read the material. It's like geometry, you have to learn the early theorems to understand the later ones.

If you are not willing to expend the effort and want other to spoon-feed you the answers, you really don't want to know the truth.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[thephaseshift]

575. All right, I give up

I was hoping it would be easier, that's all. After hearing so many people talk about her as if she were a raging bull on an anti-DU mission I figured an hour would be enough to find something obvious. I guess not! I don't have time to catch up on the previous seasons of 'The Days of Our DU Lives' ; )
I'll stick to following what's going on out there, thanks.

[Kelvin Mace]

581. So, that

would make you one of the 59 million who were too busy to actually find the truth?

Sad.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[T Town Jake]

574. Oh, that's a load...

...of horseshit, and you know it. You're not here honestly seeking to "find quotes from Bev actually attacking somebody in a big way" - you're here to flak for that fraud. All of this I'm just an innocent little newbie looking for answers charade is just more proof of the sick length to which Harris's deluded supporters will go to defend the indefensible.

BTW, if you're having a tough time spotting "quotes from Bev actually attacking somebody in a big way" you're either functionally illiterate or a koolaid-swilling fan of Saint Bev. If asked to bet, I'd put my markers on option #2.

[Kelvin Mace]

571. Then you need to start reading...

Check a fellow skeptic's posts (Donallin) and you will see that once you read the actual evidence, all will be clear.

Following Bev's updates "religously" is part of the problem. <s>

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[illuminaughty]

756. READ THE THREADS

Christ in heaven, I've never seen anything like this. It's downright fucking spooky. I've been aware of BBV since robgeorgia.zip and would love to think this woman was the savior of the voting world.

But I was in a thread just recently where she jumped in and started the cease and desist bullshit, threatening everyone. I was shocked, at first I didn't believe it was her... it was so vicious. Read a thread, any thread. They are her words archived here and she can't dispute that. I had never seen fighting like that here except in Israel/Palestine forum. I've made it clear to the group I'm working with that she is unstable and they should distance themselves from her and her info. But everyone has to learn for themselves.

[Nightjock]

559. Divide and Conquer

That is what we are falling for this time.
We are all on the same team but we have lost sight of the real enemy.
The Facists who stole this election.
We can't win this way...ripping each other to shreds.
This is a painful, sad thread.

[LoZoccolo]

561. I agree with you.

The people who are not on the DU admins' side should be quiet and not divide us.

Ditto for people who want to prevent mainstream media exposure on this issue on account on minor preventable tiffs.

[peacetalksforall]

588. This statement is anti-thetical to DU and Dems

"The people who are not on the DU admins' side should be quiet and not divide us."

What?

You want us who haven't paid much attention to infighting and her 'alleged growing madness' to keep quiet?

I don't want to take sides because I think the issue of counting votes is vastly more important than joining in discussions that are between DU admin and BH and business associates and BH, then turning araound and telling the people who are scratching their head that they are dividing the forum.

Perhaps we should ask why she or others couldn't have taken a high road and kept inter-personal stuff off the forum. If there is division going on - target BH and DA and others for keeping it public. And if anyone thinks she is a traitor or criminal they should make a concise case of it and present it rather than blasting a former member in a barrage of missiles - it is misdierected energy if it keeps up.

[Kelvin Mace]

660. I tried, I begged, I pleaded...

I don't want to take sides because I think the issue of counting votes is vastly more important than joining in discussions that are between DU admin and BH and business associates and BH, then turning around and telling the people who are scratching their head that they are dividing the forum.

but Bev insisted on making this public. If you look at the threads, you will never find me posting ANYTHING about Bev except in self-defense. She insisted on trashing me and I can send you about a half-dozen emails where I tried to explain to her that it would damage HER and the MOVEMENT to turn this into a public war. Bev repeatedly used her web site overtly to attack me and my site, whereas you cannot find anything but an explanation that we parted company. Since no one wants to bother to actually do any research, here is the how Bev started this whole issue:

It started with me calling into Randi Rhodes to to update her on the latest BBV news (she was wondering what was happening). I called in and gave her an update AND PLUGGED BEV'S SITE!!!!!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1333930#1334019

shortly thereafter, Bev chimes in all guns blazing:

Folks, you need to know this:

1. David Allen and Plan Nine's contract was revoked by my attorney in March. He seems to be daring me to waste the time and money I'm spending suing Diebold and 18 county registrars on suing him for an injunction.

The only authorized version is Amazon under publisher "Talion" March 2004 edition on 24-hour availability.

Don't say "oh, it's so sad, they were such a team." This was my work product, folks. My research. My time. My publicity efforts. My proofing. My structural editing (didn't get that, either). My fact checking. My Pulitzer-Prize deserving work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1333930#1335869

She then lights into me about not providing sales reports for for the book for THREE MONTHS BEFORE IT ACTUALLY SHIPPED.

Than she lights into me with an array of utterly false accusations:

There. It's public. I'm sure you'll hear some pack of lies, but come back with this: David -- print the sales reports on your Web site. Show us. Explain this to us.

Apparently this guy thought I gave up a year and a half of my life to write a book for free. I know you like him. Just understand that every book you buy from Plan Nine does not benefit me a whit. Nevermind what the contract says. This guys has completely ignored my attempts to reason with him over his multiple breaches of contract. He ignored my lawyer, too. So go ahead. Line his checkbook some more. Just don't delude yourself that he does one damn thing to promote this book, he's actually blocked its distrubution, and he sure as hell doesn't pay on time.

Or at all.

You can read my rebuttal to the charges in the thread. But notice she says I DIDN'T PAY HER AT ALL, which was a complete lie and I posted the canceled check to prove it.

HC, please tell me what YOU would have done in my place?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[peacetalksforall]

691. I am just as sympathetic to your position as I am to hers because I

don't know enough to take a side. I read tidbits of something going on, but I knew without thinking about it that it wasn't something I could spend time on because it wasn't my business and I could never hear both sides laid out as in a trial to take sides. I knew there were more important things to learn. So I ended up being shocked yesterday - not at the admin action, but with the vitriolic attacks that I call e-stoning.

I tend to want to believe in her because I'm sure she has kind of ruined her life temporarily with no chance of getting back what she has lost in quality of life and depleted energy from the ups and downs of it all.

At the same time I honor what you have said about having a scar of sorts on your (did you say?) reputation, though possibly not so permanent because publishing rifts seem to be common and any lingering history can be erased by coming out with other good works - especially about this election. I have zip ill feelings about you.

Anyway, what is really tragic is that the stones are huge and the throwing muscle coming from some may be purposely and intentionally trying to divide followers of DU. I have extremely strong suspicions about this.

Let's face it. Her name is becoming a household word and it is very rovian thing to DO HER IN corporally or by character assassination.

What scares the heck out of me, though, are all the NEW people who moved to the front of the lines in their e-stoning of her. If she wasn't in the picture and they did it to you, I would be just as disturbed. Then, they say that those who hold sympathy and questions about it are dividing DU. That is very rovian.

I don't put Keith Olberman on a pedestal - I don't trust GE and the NBCs one bit and I am hesitant to follow the words of anyone who puts Olberman before those who were in the trenches doing the work. Olberman's mortgage is paid by GE/NBC and he HAS to listen to and straticize with his bosses. NBC IS NOT DEMOCRAT FRIENDLY - THEY ARE TRYING TO DESTROY DEMOCRATS and everyone that the cabal wants eliminated. Of course, that is imo.

One nearly last note, when I did read every word she was writing early on about the findings of her initial investigations and a tiny bit about the early accusations, nothing caused me to think that she was 'undone'. I don't think anyone here has the right to say that another member is loony or psychotic. It is absurd - we are only font and type people who can only form opinions about the internet character of a person over a period of time. If it were me and I had my head stuck in code that I didn't read like an ABC book because I wasn't a techie and I was trying to figure out where the money was going to come from for the work that had to be done and I had worked all day, I don't think I would have been nicer than she was if I checked in and found all the criticism - whether technical or interpretative or politically incorrect. She and all of you who worked on this had hundreds telling you in very specific terms how you should do everything. I never gleaned behavior anything like the accusations going on here. So, it disturbed me, especially from those who didn't participate in the early discussions.

This means, of course, that I think it is OK to say that I suspect (and possibly accuse) some people here of being operatives who have been handed a great opportunity to 'turn' other DUers.
We know it is a number one tactic of repub rovian types to demean and discredit anyone whose name may be in the news. I think there has been some enabling going on on this forum. As of last night, I don't feel as comfortable participating.

You asked what would you should have done - I would have made it private and kept it private. and when necessary to reply to someone, say that it isn't necessary to air it. I choose to be as open to her side as I am to yours as far as everything that has touched you personally because, as I've said, it is impossible to take sides. It is impossible to take sides. I can only somewhat defend her based on what I've haven't observed and what I don't know about her side of reacting as she has.

[hlthe2b]

708. Ohhhh, David...

Boy, I have to admit to having held back on drawing any conclusions and to considerable sympathy for Bev--because quite frankly I have had anger management issues myself. I could relate to Bev on several levels--having also been a cause-driven female professional who has had to deal with some pretty overt gender bias. And yes, at times my perfectionism also drove a wedge between colleagues and those I supervised and I have experienced both deserved (and some undeserved) repercussions from my actions and how those actions were perceived. Fortunately, I also saw the impact that this behavior had-- when others do it--enough so, that I have taken great pains over the past few years to understand and correct these tendencies in myself. It has taken a lot of work, reading, professional coaching from others and some very painful self-introspection.

So, that's the extent of what I thought was going on with Bev, and I had a fair amount of sympathy as a result. I suspect others hold/held that impression as well.

BUT, having read that exchange you posted from the archives, I am absolutely appalled. This is totally on a scale that exceeds what I had imagined might have been going on with BH and really manifests a disturbingly serious lack of self-control and very self-destructive behavior. No matter how angry or defensive one becomes over an issue, I can not, imagine such a total loss of control in such a very ugly, very public, and very permanently documented (given archives) series of accusations, threats, and general angry exchange. I find it very very troublesome. I understand a bit better what has transpired and why it is so hard to convey to those questioning the true need for a "separation," while we all still hope for Bev's success.

On a personal level, I hope a trusted friend or family member will urge her to get some help managing the stress and other issues that seem to be increasing obstacles to her success and ultimately harmful to her own well-being.

[Shopaholic]

563. No--we're weeding out the less credible among us and I'm sorry

but BH has lost credibility with me and I've donated quite a bit of money to her in the past. I won't be making that mistake again and instead will be donating to those who have shown a greater interest in truly sacrificing their own egos while working to expose BBV and election fraud in this country. Bev Harris is not that person as her posts and actions both within and outside DU have clearly illustrated.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

564. But wouldn't the fascists who stole the election know people would be

suspect? Wouldn't it be credible to consider that they might PUT an activist in place to create plausible deniability when that activist turned out to be less than credible? They did this in the 60's and 70's. Frankly, I am glad this is happening NOW while there are OTHER sources of vote fraud issues to depend on.

[robbedvoter]

566. I am not on the same side with anyone who thinks Dems stole it, W

is her friend and freepers are A-OK.
Thing is , before her turning her coat so plainly, I knew it since reading the El Presidente cigar and selling the DU opinions gambit. I tried warning, but people here were as attached to bev as freepers are to W. You still are.
The voting rights movement goes on - just outgrows the con artists. Send your donations to the Washington recount (for example) instead.

[waldnorm]

589. Exactly!

While the election's being certified, we're spending a lot of time squabbling among ourselves or being motivated from the squabble to become disillusioned and not participate. The whole Harris/Olberman/DU battle is an unfortunate distraction. The focus should be on Washington, Ohio, and the forgotten states of Nevada and New Mexico. The focus should be on possible election fraud on states that didn't matter, but may have padded to the so-called "mandate" (North Carolina, Texas, etc.) The focus should be on election reform, paper trail ballots, the removal of corporate-owned black boxes with patented codes. The focus should be on reorganizing the Democratic party and pooling the grassroots movements to focus to 2006. The focus should be on coming up with strategies to work around the corporate media to get the messages out, and to counteract the "Talking points." The focus should be to educate people and to encourage them to be critical thinkers. The focus should be to get candidates to run not just in some, but towards all districts across the country for 2006. The focus should be for the next two to four years to have well-coordinated efforts to put whatever stops to destruction of the safety net or civil rights, etc. from the Bush Administration.

The focus is to not fight among ourselves, to scream and accuse, or to put down ourselves. While personalities can get in the way and that's what seems to happen with Harris/Olbermann, it does not mean there should be censorship or making bigger interpretations than words stated by people, too (and if we did, why how Rovian of us to do so).

In spite of these differences, let's just say this:

There is a non-profit organization focusing on auditing and collecting information to determine actions of election fraud in particular counties in Florida. Once these actions are known, then action can be done to try to prevent the repeat of such actions. A victory for Democracy.

There has been a successful effort to have a state-wide recount in Washington and possibly prevent another so-called "compassionate conservative" from ruling that state, only because not every vote was counted. This effort included a unified effort from John Kerry, the DNC, the DFA, moveon.org, and other movements. In the meantime, I heard people complaining about the DNC, Michael Moore, and John Kerry for not doing enough, etc. And that we shouldn't give to one entity, etc.

There will be a hand recount effort in Ohio, thanks to Green and Libertarian parties. From there, we can learn more what happened, even what may be further inferred, and probably build a case to stop other Blackwells/Katherine Harrises from happening.

While the SCLM will try to spin what they can whenever these efforts do not seem "to change the results, so what's the big deal" we'll need to make the message clear examples of fraud and voting suppression and advocate for change to hope to bring Democracy back to this country.

All this cannot be achieved if we obsess over the "lunatic" of Bev Harris or the "corporate whore" of Olbermann--neither is the case. Take something way larger, out of context of what's not there, and go for the division. Divided we fall. Do not get into that.

Try to see, that while there are some differences of opinions, and yes some big egos, we're all on the same side. Try to let the cause trump personalities, here, why don't we?

Thanks for hearing my opinion, buried in a thread so large, no one will probably read it anyway.

[marions ghost]

668. Thanks Waldnorm for your words of wisdom

I did read your long post. Your big picture statement in the midst of this boiling sea of dissension.

To me this is a symptom of an important awakening among us, esp the tired and weary among us = the realization of the sheer size of the task ahead, which needs to progress quickly regardless of how badly any of our designated leaders may stumble or fail us.

Yes, time to refocus --but it's not easy after such a Herculean push before the s'elections. We DID work hard ENOUGH to put ANYBODY in office in a country with fair elections, but obviously MORE is required now. The mission is far from accomplished.

To all those who are joining this effort wherever you are--this is an effort to bring democracy to America.

[Kelvin Mace]

579. Now Skinner is part of the conspiracy

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=20&viewmode=threaded

First things first. Skinner is a former professional organizer for the DLC. Skinner is a disciple of Al From. He's been using DU as an instrument to promote Al From's agenda since the birth of DU.

I was one of the original orginal DUers. I was originally using the id "Brad Majors" (from Rocky Horror), them went to using my real name on the forum. I wasn't banned from DU. I walked out when Skinnner started allowing post promoting keeping Bush's entire tax cut package in place when Graham's Presidential campaign started advocating that position.

Skinner has one of the foulest tempers you can possibly imagine. Insulting. Rude. Profanity that would make a Navy Chief Petty Officer blush. Then he deletes his flames to leave no evidence to understand why there are charred ruins all over the forum. DU is a reflection of every bit of that. I've known DU.com was going to blow it in a big, ugly, public way for a long time because of what I saw from the people who manage the site. It's very sad. It's a place progressives have come to rely upon on the net. I think DUers should consider themselves lucky that DU lasted as long as it did before the management showed their true natures publically. Progressives cannot rely upon the wildly fluctuating emotional state of it's DU's operators to plan on DU being there for important organizational tasks. As one of the very early unofficial Dean online organizers, I consider one of my greatest successes to be keeping the Dean campaign for the most part off that board when it was suggested by other unofficial early online organizers, and, as they say, the rest is history. I wish I could take credit for having foreknowledge of what would be accomplished on the blogosphere by Dean. No. No. No. No. I was clueless on that. However, I did keep the unofficial Dean campaign early volunteers from being stopped dead in their tracks by a 16 month long DU flame war.

Anyway... where from here. Obviously, you have the assets of the website. One could also work through all the web communities surrounding Air America Radio. One could use those AAR web communities as the secondary organizing hub for activists to track BBV issues. AAR is the herald of the progressive movement now. The people that run the sites are real media professionals. They bring to the table such things as real people skills and professionalism that DU has never had.

I'm really sorry about the way everything happened today. Sorry for Bev and BBV. Sorry for progressives. Sorry for the vast majority of DUers who are just caught in the middle of the mess. This kind of disaster makes all progressives look bad. But the sun will come up again tomorrow morning. There's still plenty of resources on the web to work these issues on, and there's still lots of work to be done.

This too shall pass.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[robbedvoter]

584. Amazing projection of all her qualities, deeds....SOP.

Con artist - in an advanced manic stage. Grandiosity interferes with her money making skills at that point.
That "who read it to W" remark is in the way of her conversion. But they'll use her anyway.

[salin]

586. After reading the whole thread... I hate to admit

that I have grown so cynical about bev and her antics.... I have been here (at du) for quite some time... and watched many of her dramas unfold... however, I have not been around as much lately and felt like I walked into a soap opera, for which I had missed crucial episodes, in the middle of the "KO Controversy". As I tried to follow what was going on - I found other more recent controversies (including the verbal threats to sue DU)... and was hooked... where were these stories... what had I missed.

I tend to be a very serious person - particularly about important news that is breaking. I tend to be more policy focused than many Duers - and thus keeping much of my DU time very serious. So my reaction to following this has been rather interesting (to me) because it is out of my DU character:

a) I feel like I am not only gawking at a car accident - but am trying to find additional pictures (ew)

b) Whle I know this is serious to many - as it involves serious issues (bbv) - and involves great pain to many (both those who have been harmed/attacked/betrayed by bev, and those who feel used/cheated by bev, and those who are still supporting bev and feel lost by the angry response.... yet - as I read parts of the thread(s)... I find myself laughing - entertained... its surreal.

The kicker... HER reporting/speculating on the ban on DU as... part of a conspiracy to stop media coverage of Volusia (sp) county? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA No Way! Who knew...

The idea that many of us who have posted at DU for a long time have done so... just to create 'credibility' as a cover... what we were really doing is plotting for years ... just for the right moment... to foil bev's work and democracy as a whole... BWahahahahahauha...

Sorry, but 1) her self-disintigration of bridges at DU has been just as inevitable as her self-defeating antics with KO; and 2) the delusional paranoia mixed in with what seems to be perpetual self-promotion (and attempts to self enrich, I suspect)... are, when viewed in the right mindset, hilarious in an absurd sorta way.

TO DU ADMIN: thanks - the sideshow seemed to have taken over for the issue; you clearly have tried to deal with the situation in an even handed way - until it was no longer possible to do so. You have done well with a tricky situation.

[xiamiam]

591. please focus

You cant be all things to all of the people all of the time…

Everyone here, including the newbies , like me…are a part of the whole…Bev’s got an edge.. so what? .somebody want to teach her about tact and diplomacy? While she obviously hasn’t cultivated some qualities she certainly has displayed sheer will and energy …Cliff Arnebeck is smooth, thank God…Steven Freedman and Berkeley and scores of others are providing analysis…people are marching today…her inadequacies are quite public and only she can work on that…hell, she’s been fighting by herself for a long time…why should she trust anyone?… .the edge gets edgier…I gave money too.. I wish she were perfect…but as a woman, about the same age as her, I understand …truly…I don’t know if she is legitimate..or not…and I don’t really care…she is not my focus…and the truth about all of this will be revealed.. the only thing that I can do when I discuss election fraud is curse, so I’m not really very effective…yet my brain can connect the dots…and I also have a role in this whole pie…as do each of you…I think its more constructive to focus on the issues ..solely…. rather than on personalities…we don’t have enough time to create any celebrities throughout this ordeal….I, for one, cant wait four years…I cant allow criminals to steal this election again…I cant even believe the notion that they could stay in office if fraud is proven…that‘s ridiculous….and that is what we should be focusing on…not IF, but WHAT we do and how we do it ..WHEN…this is proven…so while I support each of you, I don’t support any ego…nor should you…we just don’t have the time to waste….
DU has become an absolute necessity in my life…thanks

[robbedvoter]

592. Issues over personalities - what Elad, many of us were saying without

all the "gosh, poor thing" equivocation. After the signs of passage to the dark side, you are a little late explaining the "edge" thingies. People are focusing here - more and more. The voting rights activism hasn't missed a beat. Just shook a burden.

[salin]

593. DU has been (is) important in my life, as well

and most "detractors" here would agree that bev has done a good job getting things moving and that her cause is a vital one.

However I have also watched people harmed, seriously harmed (monetarily harmed, reputation (professionally) harmed) by some of ms. harris's antics. That has done harm to this community.

For a long time I tried to support the work of the whole bbv community on Du (including ms. harris), and keep my personal skepticism - and at times great anger due to the harm she has caused to people I respect - in balance (not let the latter, detract from the former).

Yet it does seem inevitable - that the actions we have seen unfold here, and play out elsewhere - would be a pattern of behavior that promoted self over strategy for a greater cause in ways that might eventually harm the cause by ending any credibility for the cause whatsoever. I think many folks reacting here, esp those who have been personally active in bbv issues, are now reacting with such passion not just due to personality or ego - but due to concern for damage that might happen to the cause.

[robbedvoter]

596. Her cause? I have had enough of this! She hardly pioneered the cause

I first read research on the ES&S fraud on Bartcop forum - made by Faun Otter. Next thing I heard, his work is included - without credit in her book, making HER money. There has been a lot of misappropriation of work, credit by this person and people who dared raise the issues were slandered - the way Skinner is now.
It was Bob Fertik (democrats.com)who did his own investigation of the first Florida steal (check gorewonflorida.com). Besides Faun Otter, a lot of good activists here put work in research and investigation. What Bev did was 'identified a hot issue button" and used it to make money with it - just as she taught - for money - on her talion.com suckers to do (the "umbezzling chapter is conveniently erased). Enough with the fond remembering. people have been suckered. It's the plain truth. Acknoledge it, move on. The voting rights issue is important enough to outlast this.

[salin]

600. point taken - and good info - however I used the term

to mean "that cause with which she is known for" not as in hers because she pioneered it.

Don't think my post is "fond remembering"... I thought it was about the harm she did to others and the concern that she was inturn harming the cause...

[beets]

594. More than a shame Earl,

that any troubled personality issue override a crucial national issue. If our voting rights can be pursued and upheld without the need for Ms. Harris's information, then we need to do that. If she is crucial then I would find a way to set her up comfortabley for life in exchange for helping define all future election procedures. As well as the bonus possibility of keeping gwb from being sworn in on 1-20.
This is like leaving the baby in the car while dad gets drunk in a bar! It's just not appropriate when time's running out.

[salin]

595. scan the thread for posts

by Maddy - on several of them she has links from DU archives that chronicle events leading to this action... I think many fear that she does want to be sent up comfortably for life and that is driving her decisions/actions on this issue more than the actual success of the effort - and that as such some of her actions have been counterproductive for the cause.

[beets]

613. 1st time on this thread, but I would give her

what she wants. This is too important.

[T Town Jake]

635. Uh-huh...do you really think you're fooling anybody? (n/t)

[beets]

648. You Blew My Cover...I'm Bev!

[Kelvin Mace]

666. Give her what she wants?

What she wants would be the destruction of the following people/groups who have dared question her:

Myself
Roxanne Jekot
Eloriel
DU
Democrats.com
Keith Oberlminn
Avi Rubin
David Dill
Doug Jones
Rebecca Mercuri
The New York Times
The Washington Post
BartCop
Fud
Scoop New Zealand
Althecat
The Associated Press
Wired News
Seattle Weekly
Verified Voting
Votewatch.us

Oh, Jesus, I just can't list them all. Other folks can add to the list.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[beets]

677. Kindly enlighten, what you see as best possible scenario

to prevent gwb from being sworn in 1-20. Isn't there a way to calm the passions and even the playing field so we can make the most of this crucial period between now and 1-6? I do understand there are vicious things going on. How, realistically, do you envision we get on with taking back the election?

[Kelvin Mace]

719. It will be very hard

to stop Bush, especially with Kerry not committed to contest the count.

I am afraid I must disappoint you in that while I believe fraud was committed, I view most of it to be the old fashioned kind. Some BBV fraud probably occurred, but I do not accept the irresponsible assertion of a grand conspiracy between multiple voting machine companies and BushCo.

It will be very hard to undo the damage Bev is doing in Florida, so any chance for what you hope for must come from Ohio and the investigation by the Senate Judicary Committee and the recounts on the ground.

I wish I had better news, but that is just my opinion.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[beets]

725. Sorry I can't quite buy all you're saying re the machines, which have been

repeatedly proven to be grossly tamperable and banned from certain counties for that very reason. With 29% percent of national votes invisible, it's kind of like driving without a license.
Although I appreciate your good faith in the face of all that.

[Kelvin Mace]

727. There is a big difference

between proving a machine CAN be tampered with (very easy) and proving it HAS been tampered with (very hard).

Bev claims to have evidence of the latter, but no one has seen it.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[robbedvoter]

597. See # 492, 537. We'll porsue it with those who actually want it!

[WillyT]

599. Jesus Fucking Christ !!!

Can't wait to hear all about our feud on Randi Rhodes and the rest of AAR. The Diebold's and the rePukes should be laughing their asses off, all the way to the theocracy!!

:wtf:

I understand that Bev could be a royal pain in the ass, I also understand that if it weren't for her, we'd have SQUAT on the vote fraud potentials. I just chose to ignore the pain in the ass stuff, so I could cull the info that was threatening to our democracy.

I guess if there had been an Internet back in the mid to late 1700's, we'd have banned Thomas Paine too. He was a pain in the royal ass as well.

Sigh...

Will we ever get our shit together again???

:shrug:

[salin]

603. disagree with you on this

came to the point that her "pain in the ass antics" were getting toxic. When one causes damage while doing some good - is there a point of diminishing returns? Is there a point of infection? Can that infection fester? ...

[WillyT]

607. I Gotta Admit...

that post election, I've been frequenting DU less, cause I needed a break. So I do not know what toxic levels have been reached with Bev et. al. But damn salin, seems about every election November, we go through a ban\purge scenario. We are all counseled to have thick skin around here, yet Novembers seem to be the thin-skinned season.

I dunno...

I trust Elad and Skinner, and they probably did what was best for the board, it's just that I was all set to see some ass kickin protest and great streaming symposium stuff with Palast and Jackson, and now I'm thinkin about goin for a long drive in the country instead.

Maybe we just need to break down and have Skinner create a DU Soap Opera Forum.

Grr...

BTW - I still love YOU!!!

:bounce::hi::bounce:

[salin]

610. personally

I think they did well to not purge her during the build up to nor the post election action time periods. They appear to have shown restraint in the name 'of the cause.'

There is a soap opera-esque feel to the affair... but in my read, the each episode involves antics by bev... but in her retelling it would be that she is the center being targeted rather than creating.

Right now, she is claiming/speculating on her website, that the ban (and the forum's (eg duers) rejection of her) is intended to stop media coverage and account for the failure of her efforts in a county in Florida. Yep, we ar now sleeper-cells. Oh ya, and none short of W himself is so concerned about the issue that his personal librarian wants an overnighted version of her book...

then there appears to be a wierd episode where she screws symbolman out of $, lies about it, then shifts her lies so they don't look quite so bad.

and on and on it goes.

[Maddy McCall]

604. OMG! LOL! Bev = Thomas Paine?

You have GOT to be kidding. Perhaps Benedict Arnold, but Paine? No way.

Joseph McCarthy, personality-wise, is the best equivalent I can think of in relation to Bev Harris.

[salin]

606. part McCarthy, part Nixon

joe doesn't quite conjour up the paranoia...

[WillyT]

611. LOL !!! - No... I'm Not Equating Bev With Thomas Paine...

But I'd wager that Thomas Paine would have been banned from this place eventually after several warnings. People that are over the top shit-stirrers usually are.

I guess I'm to presume, because I did not see it, that Bev's behavior COULD NOT be ignored? We\I ignore people here all the time. It must have been pretty bad.

:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

615. Hey Willy T...you and I have no axes, but Roxanne was getting BBV

coverage before Bev was which is where the whole shit storm came from when she accused others of filing a qui tam suit behind her back. Roxanne and a whole jost of others came out FIRST with the article (which was published in Common Dreams) about the voting machines in GA before Bev got ANY attention and even possibly before her book was written.

[RedEagle]

617. Untrue statements abound about facts

And I usually post about facts:

1. Blackboxvoting and Votergate.tv have no affiliation. Neither Blackboxvoting or Bev Harris makes any money from a completely separate endeavor. All that happens to be happening is that Votergate has chosen to document what Bev- and others- are doing. If you want to make allegations that profit is being made from what Votergate is doing, other than Votergate, then prove it. As most know, since I am an admin at BBV, also as Red Eagle, I happen to have a little more information at my disposal and if anyone has something I don't have on this, then please present it.

2. Blackboxvoting is a nonpartisan group. Even before it became a 501c3, we kept informing this board and others of that.

3. People like Jim March may be Republican, they may not have your particular set of values, but they do share something central to democracy- the belief that our votes must count as cast. If it were not for people like Jim March, who went to the California legislature and kept on the state offices, the strides toward progress made in California may not have happened.

4. Blackboxvoting is a 501c3. No one happens to be making any money off of it, especially as a 501c3. Harris and Stephenson are paid a fixed salary to do work that is 24/7. No overtime. The salaries are not especially generous, especially to people who are devoting their lives 24/7 to the cause of accountable voting.

5. The Blackboxvoting site has been hacked continuously. In it's present form, it may not be as navigable as would be liked, but it stays up. BBV did try to host the votergate clip and that took it down. Hosting the clip is not trying to make money off an endeavor we are not connected to in the first place, just trying to make it available for the public after the votergate site went down.

6. I've seen what BBV has to work with and seen where the money goes and it's not wasted.

7. Bev brought this issue out in the open. That does not diminish the work done by many others in any respect. Keep in mind that you can have the best, world changing idea and if you can't get that idea out, you're nowhere. Everyone, everyone, builds on the shoulders of others. P. 211, Blackboxvoting, Bev details Faun Otter's research into Diebold executives before the files were found on the web. It's a little lop-sided to claim that Bev credits no one for the work they've done.

8. Regarding Olberman- When you lose track of the information, given by Olberman himself, that he did not talk to Harris directly, but that only producers were involved, you lose an important part of the story. While you might have wanted someone to play nice with this, as a broadcast veteran, I know that if you don't stop this kind of inaccuracy fast and hard, it's darn near impossible to stop the misinformation later. Like it or not, that has to be done in a public venue, not behind the scenes. I can't get that show so I don't know if Olberman made a correction on the air or not. If he did not, then he hasn't done his part. An inaccuracy presented on the air must be corrected on the air- no editorializing. If he has, well and good. If he's only done it in his blog, no dice. Olberman has to do his part, too.

9. Remember Dan Rather. Kill the messenger and lose the message.

10. I have tried to represent facts here, and opinions only as they relate to my experience. Where I will digress is this statement from DU:


"This thread will remain open until further notice. Again, we would like to remind everyone to take care to avoid personal attacks. Thank you for your continued cooperation."

I don't particularly find this to be very ethical, no matter who they happen to be dealing with. And please, I'd like the administration to show me another former DU'er they have banned from the site but put up a thread to be kept open for more attacks. Personal attacks abound and this relegates the thread to a dog pile. That will probably get me tombstoned as well, so be it.

[indigoblue]

625. Thank you for your thoughtful post

This thread will further divide the DU members on this issue. Since it is now obvious that the members here cannot reach any constructive solutions to this conflict, I hope that the administrators will lock this thread as well to avoid further damage on the reputation of DU forums as a whole.

[lthuedk]

678. Another Rovian wedge for Karl. Now, the DU.

[robbedvoter]

634. #492, #537 #584: Bev posts on love for W, freepers and sliming Skiner

The second one implies that democrats are nervous about her findings, hence her banning, (we stole the election)
I wish that all defenders would read them BEFORE posting their "thoughtful" posts. I'd like to know if the latest statements chaged their opinion in the least.
I'd like to find out: is there ANYTHING above the allegiance to Bev or not?

[RedEagle]

653. Bev's story of Bush's wanting the book is old

Of course he wanted the book and would have obtained it anyway. Is there no curiosity that he did want it? Is there no realization that he would have obtained it no matter what Bev did or didn't do?

You take statements too far. And if you don't understand that there are people on both sides of the isle that may have a vested interest in the status quo, then you're not looking at the current state of politics in this country with any reality.

What's at stake if PEOPLE actually elect their leaders?

Have you never wondered why some so-called Democrats get elected?

And how many people have wondered, right here on this board, where Kerry was, why wasn't he fighting? But as soon as Bev says anything, bam.

We have a democratic auditor in a state who is gung ho on touch screens and helped the republican secretary of state at every turn to try and sell them to the rest of the state.

Clean voting is a nonpartisan issue and those who would usurp democracy are not aligned with one party.


The real issue is not Dems vs. GOP. It's control of the government by it's citizens. That's really frightening to some.

Elsewhere on this board, I see posters wondering why the Dems voted for legislation to medicate our children. Yet you look aghast at anyone who wonders why it might be prudent to keep in mind that control of the vote benefits those who control it, regardless of party?

The political machine is made up of every political party. We're not just fighting for our vote, we're fighting for the grass roots control of our country- where that control belongs.

Politics is about power- not political parties. Power corrupts, remember? Why do you think we have only two parties? Part of that is built into the system and part of it is because almost every means is taken to keep it that way. Too many parties means you don't have the control you want.

How many times, on this board, do you hear people saying that Dems have become too much like the GOP? Do you think that's an accident? Control the message, repeat many times and you have people believing they have to move right to win.

How many people complain about the DLC? Move the party right.

OK, that was a bit of a rant. The point is, power knows no party, power goes after more power, and power feeds on itself.

Power does not want you or I to have more than a sham vote to make ourselves "feel" good.

Case in point: Next up, will be the "receipt" people take home after voting. It'll be the next cure, watch for it.

It's a red herring. You can't recount that receipt because you took it home. You can't return it because they will say it can't be proven to be original. But you'll be asked to look it up on a web site and "see" that your vote was counted correctly.

Thanks to Bev Harris, you know by now that voting systems can contain mulitple sets of books, so you can figure out that what you see is not necessarily what will be counted.

Thanks to Rebecca Mercuri, who advocated a voter verified paper ballot touch sceen.

And after that, we realized, through the legislation already there and being introduced, that no one wanted ANY auditing.

Whether everyone in the voting rights movement has conducted themselves beyond reproach, or anyone's definition of such, is not at hand.

Our freedom and democracy are.

I'll keep fighting to get to the root of it.

Damn if I'll cut off my nose to spite my face.

[faithnotgreed]

698. REDEAGLE - youre saying very important and very powerful things here

and i am enjoying reading your posts

i think i sense your role here and its one of trying to point out only the facts - from the inside- as you know them in a very difficult situation

ive been there on a much smaller scale. this situation has reminded me of someone i used to know. she fought for and led a very worthy cause, and believed in it (as everyone who was part of the organization). was a guest on a couple national news shows, overall very driven and intelligent.

but she was also erratic and you could never be certain what mood you would find her in. things would set her off and she would start speaking of others and sometimes could get nasty. and it was strange to me because i worked with her, and knew her to be warm and passionate about the cause and the "face" of what we were trying to do. i felt i knew her pretty well because i worked with her on this project and in a non profit that required a great deal of work and commitment.

and it was strange for me because she wasnt unkind to me. i was younger and appreciative of her. i gave her positive support; she was so experienced in our mission but i must admit that when it came to minor things, it was just easier for me to let her get away with the minor outbursts. but again, she was pretty consistent with me so it was easier for me to support her. but she certainly turned off her share of allies.

anyway, i just relate to what youre trying to convey because i have been there myself. so it gives me perhaps a good idea - in broad strokes of course - of what is going on. a bit of being on the inside and feeling there must be misunderstandings that are getting blown up.

i sense that bev is like this woman i describe. wonderful articulate committed "face" of something powerful and needed. but because of my own experience i can understand that there is another side. one that is always there, sometimes hidden and sometimes surfacing when things get too hot perhaps, and when lines blur and emotions rise. and because this was a non profit, territory was, sadly, involved and that aspect would set her off as well when the topic of working with others came up. she wasnt always able to let go of her control of all she had worked for because she felt she knew best and it was threatening to her that others may be her peers or would gain credit for what she thought she had done before. she loved the attention and adulation of being the leader though she wouldnt say that outright. but when funding or high profile work was involved then it was a roll of the dice whether it would go well

and the woman i am speaking of eventually was let go by the board of directors because it all got too dramatic and other agencies that we HAD to deal with and work well with, were withdrawing from us, and some funding was going away because of all this. she was a wonderful person with a heart of gold but there was another side as well that we just could no longer afford to have her as the leader anymore.
and to be honest, i think it was a partial relief to her because she knew (other parts of) her life was starting to crumble by how much she had given to this cause. she was perhaps overly dedicated and it cost her. though i have to say bev has cleary worked way above and beyond what could be expected of anyone. i think she must have many fine qualities and i certainly dont want to portray otherwise.

thats one huge difference with the woman i knew. she was a lot of show but hadnt done the hard work in a long time. she came and went as she pleased and i know bev is a tireless worker for bbv and democracy. i said this the other day and i say it still: we all owe bev a tremendous amount. like you say, she brought bbv out into the open and ran with it

just some food for thought... again, i thank you for your words of wisdom and explaining some background here. i have enjoyed it very much and wish you and bbv - and bev - the very best. it clearly is a crucial mission and one that needs all hands on deck working together or we all suffer. i am saddened that things deteriorated like this. and like most problems, there are 2 sides but lots of layers.

warm wishes jude

[robbedvoter]

722. So it';s Beverly uber ales - just like for the freepers W can eat babies

and they'll find a reason that's a good thing. or like the fundies that think that their purpose is so superior to everything else, any action, no matter how despicable is justified. Thanks for confirming it.


"What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" --Mahatma Gandhi

[Malikshah]

644. You've done a good job here in pointing out the one-sided nature

of the ongoing debate.

A great disservice to the whole process is being done.

Some public shaming needs to be done.

:)

[Boredtodeath]

707. RedEagle=BBV.org Board of Directors Member

Your version of the truth should have started with the disclaimer that you are a member of the Board of Directors of BBV.org.

Without that statement everything you've said in this thread is suspect.

[symbolman]

759. Dear NotREDFacedEagle:

About your post:
***********************
And I usually post about facts:

1. Blackboxvoting and Votergate.tv have no affiliation. Neither Blackboxvoting or Bev Harris makes any money from a completely separate endeavor. All that happens to be happening is that Votergate has chosen to document what Bev- and others- are doing.

**Oh PLEASE. First of all, WHICH Votergate Movie are you talking about and WHY are their TWO of them? WHY did Harris DIS that Other Votergate movie with virtually the same footage in it? I'll tell you why, because she probably screwed them just like she screwed US at Takebackthemedia.com - it's OBVIOUS.

She leaves a trail of bodies with empty wallets behind her wherever she goes.

WE called her up and asked her if she wanted to be in our film "Electile Dysfunction" which we'd already started filming. She agreed to an interview so we sent our film crew from Southern California to Seattle to meet with her at a cost of (with motel) over a thousand dollars.

FACT

She actually DID show up at the restaurant but during a 4 hour lunch she refused to let them take the camera out of the bag. We called her later and she told us she needed $60 thousand dollars so she and Andy "could drive around in a truck digging through dumpsters and doing a Michael Moore thing" - with the intimation that if we supplied the money we could "tag along" and film Her being a Star or something.

FACT

We told her to call us back by the end of the week, we had an angel who would probably (if we spent OUR political capital pushing HERS to him) pony up the bucks (our pal spent 300 grand on getting our ARMY OF ONE MoveOn entry - one of 14 finalists out of 1600 - on cable TV an a 30 and 60 second ad during the New Hampshire Primaries) - and we were willing to give it to her. She never called us back - I'm damned sure that she found other suckers (the first Votergate film?) to give her bucks or follow her around THEN of course THEY probably got screwed and so now there's ANOTHER Votergate film.


I've talked to Earl Katz before, by the way, a great guy, a real humanitarian - what he's doing associating with HER I have no idea - maybe word will get back to him that she's full of It and unstable. Not from me, tho, I don't operate like that - our film will stand on it's own and is a premium on Buzzflash right now.


Why do you think she has been grandstanding? So that a FILM CREW can FILM it - she is THE STAR of the movie, quit BS'ing people - I KNOW better - I knew from the start what she was doing - she approached US for the money, understand? And we almost got suckered, thank god she didn't call us back, we would have Been RUINED by her.. as it is we're only out over a thousand - which is still a ton of money, but at least we didn't hand it over to her.


By the way - anyone that knows about nonprofits knows (and I don't believe a SINGLE word that woman says - she lied last night about the lunch she had with our film crew -- right here, before she was banned.. and it was PATHETIC.. "I don't recall having lunch with anyone.." "I paid for the lunch at Salty's" - virtually within the same sentence.) - that at the end of the year she can WRITE HERSELF A CHECK FOR THE REST OF THE MONEY.. so saying she's only getting $60 grand is total bullshit. Come to think of it, she could just as easily give it to YOU, or to Votergate.tv..


Do you and her think that we're RETARDED or something? That's the most insulting part of what you people do.. how in the hell can she prove something is TRUE when she doesn't TELL THE TRUTH? Get it? I wager you won't. But WE do.


If you want to make allegations that profit is being made from what Votergate is doing, other than Votergate, then prove it. As most know, since I am an admin at BBV, also as Red Eagle, I happen to have a little more information at my disposal and if anyone has something I don't have on this, then please present it.

***This sounds a LOT like how the govenor of Alabama (the last Democratic Govenor - you can see this in our film - OUR proof of Voter fraud) got screwed. "If he wants to prove voter fraud (they stole 6500 votes from him electronically in Baldwin County AL in the middle of the night, with only Repugs in the room, locked down tight) then you will need the ballots." "Okay, so open the ballot box so I can prove I won." "Anyone opening the ballot box will be JAILED."
Do you see the metaphor here?

WE are somehow supposed to know what YOU know about that film company (once again, which FILM?) and present that to you as proof with no access to actual information - and I love the phrasing "If you want to make allegations that profit IS being made from what Votergate is doing " -- like I said, Harris could write them a big fat CHECK at the end of the year, and they to her - And the movie is about HER - otherwise WHY are they following her around?

I KNOW because she wanted US to do it. Facts won't do what you want them to..

She even admitted that the Votergate crew were LATE in Volusia - that her PR person had a camera (Lynn Wynn, something) and filmed the garbage bag tug - real classy there. Garbage. I saw in the Votergate movie that she'd found the Diebold lunch menu in their trash, rooting around like a couple of raccoons. That was real Michael Moore stuff there.


-- oh, and that little BULLSHIT statement "*I* do not have the film that KO wants - it doesn't belong to me, it belongs to Votergate so I can't give it up.." (but NOT associate with Votergate, eh?) Handy excuse, BOTH the LePore shots and the Volusia shots were done by the same person, NOT Votergate, by Harris's OWN ADMISSION -- yet, she can give up the LePore film (but then again NOT) and can't give up the Volusia hand held shot by her PR gal.. Why? SAVING IT FOR THE MOVIE. The one she will HELP TO SELL, so she gets noteriety and can get MORE MONEY..


Get out your waders because it gets REAL DEEP around you people. I've seen nothing but weasel words from people claiming they are seeking the truth - that means that you and her have NO CREDIBILITY in my opinion. THAT is why people get upset, especially when they've forked over money they can't afford - only to be treated to one steaming load after another.
Glad to know who you are so I can avoid you like the plague as well.
***

2. Blackboxvoting is a nonpartisan group. Even before it became a 501c3, we kept informing this board and others of that.

**Like I said, end of the year you can write each other checks all day long.. with the money that the poor schmoes who bought her crisis after crisis stir the pot routine sent along to you. I'd love to see them all get together in one clump and storm your castle - figuratively speaking of course.

3. People like Jim March may be Republican, they may not have your particular set of values, but they do share something central to democracy- the belief that our votes must count as cast. If it were not for people like Jim March, who went to the California legislature and kept on the state offices, the strides toward progress made in California may not have happened.

**He's the other person who got money from the Qui Tam? As I recall Harris said that she REFUSED to settle - which is complete and utter bull - the Attorney General was in charge of the case, NOT HER.. more misinformation, grandstanding and puffery. Where did that money go? TO a place where people can write each other BIG CHECKS at the end of the year? I'm willing to bet that's what happened.. My wife is good at research, we'll look all this up. Jim March may have been fooled by her for all I know, know nothing about him.. but I'm seeing a lot of right wing talk from BH at this point - what a chameleon she is.. can you explain her basically INSANE comments? Thought not.

4. Blackboxvoting is a 501c3. No one happens to be making any money off of it, especially as a 501c3. Harris and Stephenson are paid a fixed salary to do work that is 24/7. No overtime. The salaries are not especially generous, especially to people who are devoting their lives 24/7 to the cause of accountable voting.

**"No one happens to BE making money off it" Remember, big check writing party at the end of the year. Who is YOUR favorite charity? Bev? and maybe YOU are Hers.. or maybe Votergate.tv, and SHE could be their Favorite Charity.. like I said, BBV people like you and her INSULT us with flaky logic, red herrings, straw men, etc..

5. The Blackboxvoting site has been hacked continuously. In it's present form, it may not be as navigable as would be liked, but it stays up. BBV did try to host the votergate clip and that took it down. Hosting the clip is not trying to make money off an endeavor we are not connected to in the first place, just trying to make it available for the public after the votergate site went down.

**My wife has been in the computer industry so long that she has an email addy at AOL that says - her name@aol -- no numbers (like mike239383@aol) and she says that one: you people have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

and two: sounds like more grandstanding AND paranoia -- stir the pot, send money.. what you say makes no sense, none.
Gee, we're only doing poor Votergate.tv a favor (they have their own site) and pushing the movie that BEV is STARRING IN -- She begged for money for them, here too, what, because she was getting too much? Bank account more full than her voicemail (and gee.. ever heard of buying a dedicated cell phone for media people to call you and no one else? I'm not even a PR person like SHE Is and I know that..) stupid. excuse after excuse.. people get sick of paying for excuses and NASTY attacks.. she threatens to sue more people than Bill O'Reilly..

6. I've seen what BBV has to work with and seen where the money goes and it's not wasted.


**I'm sure it's not wasted - love the part where she said she took a CAB FORTY MILES to deliver the alleged video that KO wanted but she wouldn't give to him, but did, but couldn't because it belonged to Wynn who hand shot it, and gave or SOLD it to VOtergate.tv so Bev couldn't hand it over..


DO you SEE how convoluted it all gets? That is either the most ineffectual person I've ever seen (and why I didn't send her money) or crazy, or a conman (woman) -- which is why everything blows up in her face, and then she attacks everyone around her.. and these attacks, according to what I've seen and people I've heard from that lost money to her, are NOT accidental.. you don't accidentally sue someone or threaten to sue them, not time and time again..

You've hooked your wagon to the wrong star. More than a loose cannon.
And now that she's done that dorky ass move with LePore (utterly classless in my opinion) the price of info keeps going UP and UP from $3000 to $7000, AND SHE BRAGS ABOUT IT GOING UP -- SPENDING SOMEONE ELSE'S HARD EARNED DONATIONS..
That's stupid and it sucks.

7. Bev brought this issue out in the open. That does not diminish the work done by many others in any respect. Keep in mind that you can have the best, world changing idea and if you can't get that idea out, you're nowhere. Everyone, everyone, builds on the shoulders of others. P. 211, Blackboxvoting, Bev details Faun Otter's research into Diebold executives before the files were found on the web. It's a little lop-sided to claim that Bev credits no one for the work they've done.

**Church of Harris, right? THose who cannot See, cannot SEE.. once again, we didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.. I've been here about THREE years now and watched it all -- I've dealt with the media, they are not hard to deal with at all.. they or a producer calls you, you show up, or they send a limo - it's just that easy.. the hard part is keeping your cool and knowing how to deal with them, they can be real assholes and I know, done O'Rielly my first time, Scarborough Twice, Lou Dobbs, etc, etc..


and the DU was INVALUABLE then - I got the best advice from all the good people and PROS here before I went on the air, and when I go on the air I almost never fail to mention the DU as an invaluable resouce and a healing place, etc..

I don't JUST do it for myself, but SHE does.. it's all about HER, the money, the show, the movie, the book.. You will NEVER convince me otherwise - it looks like YOU have the Koolaid pitcher in your hand so ....

8. Regarding Olberman- When you lose track of the information, given by Olberman himself, that he did not talk to Harris directly, but that only producers were involved, you lose an important part of the story. While you might have wanted someone to play nice with this, as a broadcast veteran, I know that if you don't stop this kind of inaccuracy fast and hard, it's darn near impossible to stop the misinformation later. Like it or not, that has to be done in a public venue, not behind the scenes. I can't get that show so I don't know if Olberman made a correction on the air or not. If he did not, then he hasn't done his part. An inaccuracy presented on the air must be corrected on the air- no editorializing. If he has, well and good. If he's only done it in his blog, no dice. Olberman has to do his part, too.

***Yeah, well then you know you have a real problem on your hands. This being banned (again!) news, and the KO thing is going to shoot around the world and there's a good chance that she and BBV will sink (and you with her) - already labeled tin foil by him... she obviously wanted to control his programming and he wouldn't do it, so now she's claiming she didn't get the call -- like I said, ever heard of a dedicated cell phone? You a flush with cash and that didn't occurr to you?

She's also lieing about what he said - we TIVO everything and watched it over and over and read her BS.. it's a LIE.. WHEN WILL SHE RETRACT what she says about HIM, or US or anyone? Get it?

There is no excuse for not working with the media, she had a golden shot at getting the word out in a responsible way and blew him OFF.. just like she did to US, to Dave Allen and a host of others.. like I said.. either she's inept, overwrought, a loose cannon, a nut, etc.. all of which make her a poor spokesman for the subject..

Bush stood on the shoulders of a lot of people too.. dead people at the site of 911 so that he could claim to be a hero himself.. I think that's a fine metaphor for what she's done to everyone she has crossed who haven't crossed her.. she attacks people - just about anyone it appears - so that means she will NOT be the spokesperson for this movement. She blew it, she's a laughingstock at Bartcop (from a LONG time ago) at KOS's site and elsewhere --
stick a fork in her for this movement, she's done.. the word will spread like fire on the web, it really is a small world. It's sad really, she had a shot and went Elvis on everyone..

9. Remember Dan Rather. Kill the messenger and lose the message.

**she is NOT that important - even worse, she's ruined the movement at the least.. Remember Dan Rather. I do, he's fine man, the freepers that lie about him suck. He doesn't.

As for Bev (and you now) I don't believe and never will a single thing you say. She's burned practically everyone I've talked to - like the boy who cried wolf, if the village has a high enough turn over rate, the new folks won't ever know that the Boy is LYING. Well, the DU has too many people to fool for too long.

But to offer hope for money never seems to fail and no one ever asks for their money back when they've been suckered, too embarrassing.

10. I have tried to represent facts here, and opinions only as they relate to my experience. Where I will digress is this statement from DU:

**That's RICH.. after Harris OPENLY and brazenly attacked both innocent VR workers here, AND the DU AND KO, etc -- YOU beg for them to shut down the thread that tells the truth.

If you do not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying here, then you deserve all you've got coming to you. I offered Harris a chance right before she was banned to recant, to apologise, to do the right thing. Do you know what she did? She LIED to my face about something I KNEW was a fact - our film crew and losing over a thousand dollars. LIED to ME to my face.


That is unforgiveable. My mother always told me, that anyone who will Lie, will CHEAT and STEAL - and through this long life of 50 years now I found her never to be wrong about that.

Go peddle your wares at your website - we're sick to death of the lies and obfuscations, the ineffectuality, the grandstanding, the ME ME ME, the "sky is falling" routine, etc, etc..

We just want a little peace so we can compose ourselves and fight a bigger devil - with TRUTH by the truthful, trustworthy people RIGHT HERE...

buh bye.
****************REST OF REDEAGLE'S STATEMENTS BELOW************

"This thread will remain open until further notice. Again, we would like to remind everyone to take care to avoid personal attacks. Thank you for your continued cooperation."

I don't particularly find this to be very ethical, no matter who they happen to be dealing with. And please, I'd like the administration to show me another former DU'er they have banned from the site but put up a thread to be kept open for more attacks. Personal attacks abound and this relegates the thread to a dog pile. That will probably get me tombstoned as well, so be it.

[Name removed]

619. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

633. I;ve gotta disagree, without Bev we'd probably be light years ahead

of where we are today. She coopted everything and anybody who attempted to help was shunted aside as an afront to her ego.

If we had a real activist who didn't let ego get in the way, we'd probably have proof right now!

[Kellis]

616. wow I had no idea all this was going on

I read thru a lot of the archives to get a feel for what this is all about.
You made the right decision.I don't think she is good for DU much less the Democratic Party.I certainly don't want her representing me.

There are so many dedicated,brilliant and charismatic people at DU that are doing so much for the party that I never really paid attention to Bev Harris threads anyway.

I want to thank all the Moderators for the hard work that goes into DU.You will never know just how much I appreciate this place and admire all the memebers who put so much into DU.

:toast:

[BlueDog2u]

622. As a Relative Newcomer to this issue

I must say that I appreciate the thoughtful candor of EarlG in providing this historical sketch of the current situation. Moreover I will say that the history recounted here is consistent with what I have read and seen elsewhere. I hope that all parties to the dispute can avoid personalizing the issue and focus instead on the important work that remains to be done to promote a verifiable and transparent elections system.

[smartvoter]

623. W bought the book ? Right. Want a deal on some swampland?

First of all, I'd imagine that plenty of GOP have the book, for their own reasons. Maybe even W. However, would POTUS order a book directly for himself and his own name on anything, let alone voting fraud? Come on. She's full of it.

(And I didn't even bother to go after the customer privacy angle. This is getting beyond absurd. W reads books? Since when? :-))

[crispini]

627. Man, she can't even get the basics of the Olbermann thing right.

On Wednesday night, Keith Olbermann went on national television (MSNBC) and did an editorial saying that I was refusing to provide documents, or come on his show.

Ah, no. That's completely WRONG. He said NOTHING like that on national TV. He said it in his BLOG. Biiiiiiiig difference.

[JohnnyCougar]

639. Big difference....not to her

The difference between fantasy and reality with Bev is non-existant. That is how she builds up this victimization complex by fantasizing that everyone is out to get her, even her friends and supporters.

DU is in on the conspiracy? Haha...yeah right. DU allowed her a free forum to solicit for donations and "stir the pot" whenever she felt like she needed more money.

Let me tell you something, Bev supporters, if Bev really wanted to gain credibility and succeed at this operation, she would have acted civilized towards Olbermann, went on his show, and stated her case. Instead, she chose to threaten and harass the very person in the position to break her story into the MSM world in an unbiased fashion. not surprisingly, this type of behavior is not an isolated incident, it is a pattern. So if you see Bev, tell her to calm the fuck down and learn to work with others. They taught that in kindergarden to me. Work well with others. Do not be selfish.

If Bev decides to apologize to those she has publically and privately threatened and smeared, I will be the first to forgive her. Until then, she is a stick in the spokes of the vote fraud issue if she cannot work with others to create a common good. That's what the whole fucking Democratic party is about. It is about getting over yourself and working for the common good. Period.

[americanstranger]

656. Hey, there's my graphic!

I did that 'We Weren't Soldiers' graphic so long ago. I'm always pleasantly surprised when it pops up again. :)

-as

[JohnnyCougar]

659. Awesome!! My brother showed me it in an e-mail.

I thought is was so funny, I put it on my sig line!

Hope you don't mind!

[americanstranger]

665. Not at all!

That one's out in the wild - I've since started putting the addy of my blog on my graphics, but I didn't think to put it on that one.

Just cool to see it turn up every so often. :)

-as

[AntiFascist]

642. Imagine George Bush breathing a big sigh of relief.....

I doubt if the whole BBV thing is a big soap opera orchestrated by Bev and others just so they can capitalize off of their books and documentaries, but even if this so, just imagine:

George W. Bush sitting back comfortably in his chair in the oval office, breathing a big sigh of relief. Perhaps he's smoking a cigar, thinking that the BBV controversy is now on its last legs....

[IAMREALITY]

645. No He Ain't

"George W. Bush sitting back comfortably in his chair in the oval office, breathing a big sigh of relief. Perhaps he's smoking a cigar, thinking that the BBV controversy is now on its last legs...."

He's Pacing Around In circles sweating nervously while the thought keeps running through his head 'those damn DU'rs, they just won't get over this, I didn't expect them to keep going like this, shit, they've dug up so much, I'm never gonna get away with this now, they won't let it die, they're gonna find out the truth, Madsen's on my tail, what am I gonna do, I'm done, shit where's my coke, I need my coke, and my JD, shit, how am I gonna get out of this one'

That's all he's doin...... Wanna know why????

CAUSE WE'RE COMIN TO FUCKIN GET HIM!

[Gregorian]

647. Man, that is the best post ever.

You have spelled out everything in the universe, in one paragraph.
Fight or flight. And it's true, they aren't just sitting easy. Wow, what a great realization. We aren't powerless. They aren't omnipotent.

Thank you.

[AntiFascist]

652. he,he,he.!!!!!

I like that image much better.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

730. That post is way to good ...

Way Way to good to be buried in a 1000+ post thread (it will be 1000+ you watch)
:yourock:
:headbang:

[robbedvoter]

667. Would that be an El Presidente cigar?

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

[nmoliver]

649. from Susan Clarke: letter to Olbermann re Bev

This post is from Susan Clarke, of Concord, MA. She has asked me to forward it to DU. - Nina

Dear Mr. Olbermann:

As understandable as your concerns might otherwise be, I believe them unfounded in the case of Bev Harris and BlackBoxVoting.org.

Let me preface this by stating that, like yourself, I do not know Bev Harris or her staff. In fact, I have had no contact with them. However, I have had considerable experience more generally with expose activity. I wish to convey that in the world of moment-by-moment discovery of crimes the size of electoral fraud*, and the need for prompt legal responses to each discovery, the life functions differently. And the way Harris et al have reportedly acted, from my reading of the various accounts thereof, is entirely consistent with the highest integrity in such processes. This doesn't mean that your annoyance is necessarily unfounded; I would just allay some of your fears.



First, with regard to the serving of legal papers on public officials, I have found myself and my colleagues often in the position of having the evidence in hand and the case drawn up, but with no one - including the sheriff - willing or able to serve them. Public officials - especially those in deep trouble - go to great lengths to hide from any event that would open them to the service of legal documents. For this reason, it usually becomes necessary for people of integrity to do things that appear socially outrageous. Crashing a retirement party is only superficially so; for if you examine the crimes committed on the other side, you must readily admit the moral necessity of the harmless action, as well as the extraordinary courage required to carry it out.



Do understand: legal service is in no way "artificial news" or the "creation" of it! If someone who discovers a crime fails to report it, s/he could be named eventually as a participant in it. Depending on the number of states involved, Bev could be accused under RICOA if she did not report the crime. And where the Florida legal system fails to allow the filing of a criminal case because one participant is in hiding and the Governor himself is by legal definition and more a co-conspirator, the discoverer must then go to the lengths Bev Harris has. These are by no means "guerilla" tactics. They are simply the standard legal modus operandi under such circumstances. They are used all the time.



The standard response by the alpha dog, if you will, is to claim some social inappropriateness of an act (such as Bev's) in order to deflect attention away from the crime (LePore's). This has the added benefit of creating judgments in a vacuum (i.e., without the reasons why the act is morally and legally necessary) in the public mind. The superficial judgments take the form of yours, "If she's the type of person who would crash a retirement party and just take the stage, then..." In fact, Ms. Harris is likely not at all that sort of person. If she were, she would have no circle around her such as she has. Absent the reasons for an action, judgments about it are skewed.



I would add that these skewed judgments are often legally defamatory. For example, you asserted that Harris "screamed". This is unlikely, since the podium probably had a microphone. If it did not, then perhaps it would be accurate to state she projected her voice as did other speakers therefrom. I've frequently observed powerful but guilty people deploy - in court - the false accusation of "yelling" and "screaming" to try to discredit someone, when the speaker did not, in fact, raise his or her voice. Standard tactic of criminals. Such dynamics have received considerable review by psychologists in the realm of the physical abuse of weaker by stronger persons, but needs greater exposure as a general tool of the powerful against the weak, particularly those who resist.



With regard to the appearance on TV or radio, please understand that (if Bev Harris' situation is anything like those I've worked in and observed), when you're deeply in the thick of it - suddenly dumpster diving because of a tip, or suddenly running to the courthouse because without a TRO (temporary restraining order), the bit that you've just discovered will be lost forever, or suddenly needing to deal with a threat to your life, and all this within a context of a very short period of time within which to do all you need to do - you revert to phone radio interviews and put off TV. It's not a strategic choice, but one borne of necessity.



I can't tell you how many times I've done this. With TV, one has to prepare the appearance, the soundbites (because you're lucky to be cut down to two sentences on the nightly news), and the graphics; and one often must travel to the studio. Under the gun of the exposure of electoral crimes, it makes perfect sense to me why Bev Harris would first agree to an interview, then would find herself in a position of impossibility, else a legal deadline or a newly found tape or even her life might be lost. I've been there.



As for airing tapes, I can imagine how difficult it is for Harris' volunteer team to give up a miniDV (only the original of which would constitute viable legal evidence, and which, if loaned, would open them to accusations of tampering), or to take the time to find just the right section of the right tape to copy in a messy box of maybe 100+ tapes, when they probably don't have time to go to the bathroom, much less go home for Thanksgiving.



When you're in the thick of things, as Harris et al are, mostly volunteering despite whatever employment, family, and financial issues, etc. they may have, it's very difficult to perform well and provide for everyone. I remember 60 Minutes requesting their standard two-page summary, for example. When you've got daily legal deadlines, you're writing briefs and pulling evidence together, lining up witnesses, getting them to write affidavits, and making sure all your other ducks are in a row, it can take more than a week to put together a 2-page summary. And I've seen many people just back down at the request, as simple as it seems to those with "normal" lives.



Once again, my own experience may not apply - or it may. But I would recommend withholding judgment at this stage. Your assertion that Bev Harris "isn't doing anybody any favors" is not only false, but derogatory, inappropriate, untimely and outrageous. As you admit, there is "justifiable public concern over our most precious right - the right to a reliable, honest election." And, I would add, this constitutes not mere "concern". It is fact and it is the law.



All this said, I will also inquire of BlackBoxVoting on your behalf for your requests.



Susan Clarke

(Public health scientist, pro-se litigator, investigator, exposeuse)

Concord, MA



* With regard to the "size of electoral fraud", please keep in mind that hearings on Election 2000 fraud were scheduled to have begun on Capitol Hill on September 11, 2001.

[americanstranger]

658. That letter is a bit inaccurate.

The woman talks about Bev serving the legal papers to LePore. As I understand it, the actual papers were served to LePore earlier in the day, and Bev's papers were more or less 'symbolic.'

She also splits hairs about whether Bev 'screamed' on the podium, saying that was not probable because there was probably a mic on the podium. Besides the fact that the point really doesn't have much to actually do with anything, I've seen plenty of people get in front of a mic - and 'scream.' Besides, this woman wasn't there (and claims not even to know Bev), but somehow she's absolutely sure that Bev didn't scream.

And as far as her explanation for Bev being scheduled on the show and then not being able to fulfill the appearance - I thought the charge was that it was Olbermann's people who scheduled her then bumped her?

Is this woman a legal representative for Bev? If not, what's the letter got to do with anything?

-as

[Melinda]

661. Additionally, if BH *is* a party to ANY suit, she can't serve anything

PERIOD!

The alleged symbolic gesture was grandiosity and nothing more.

[Maddy McCall]

702. Bev's schedule wouldn't be so "grueling" if she'd shared responsibilities

with others. But to have done that would mean that she wouldn't be able to receive all of the kudos. Good leaders know when and how to delegate authority. Thus, bev is not a good leader.

[saracat]

669. This is a completely bogus letter.

This is a fake letter written by someone making a really bad attempt at "legalese". The titles she bestows upon herself are hilarious! No lawyer, as she is insinuating she is, would write such a letter.And what the hell is an exposeuse? A feeble attempt at bad french?

[Melinda]

671. The author asserts s/he is a "pro se litigator" ... a non-lawyer

The definition: Pro Se is a Latin term meaning appearing on one's own behalf. A Pro Se client is a non-lawyer who seeks to represent him/herself, as in the case of one who does not retain a lawyer and appears for himself in court.

Synonomous with "Pro Per" or "In Propria Persona".

A Pro Se litigant can NOT represent anyone other than themself, so this chickie must be very busy if she titles herself "litigator".

[saracat]

680. Yeah . I caught that, but ya gotta admit ,the legalese is hilarious!

This is the most pompous email I have ever read! Apparently she believes that no one on this board would catch pro se litigator ! The only way this one is litigating is mireable dictum ! By the grace of a miracle. My spelling isn't right . It's been a long time since I used the phrase!:)

[robbedvoter]

672. Exposeuse=former poseur (noun, feminine)

:evilgrin:

[intelle]

673. Heeheehee

exposeuse--did Bev strip at that retirement thing?:evilgrin:

[Kelvin Mace]

676. If you would be so kind

as to send me Ms. Clarke's address I will bring her up to speed on Bev. Since she admits not knowing her, she really needs to get educated, lest she find herself Bev's next victim.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[nmoliver]

757. Susan Clarke's address

David, I have sent you Susan's e-mail address privately.

I posted this as a favor to her and I can't comment on what she is saying about Bev, one way or another.

I will say, however, that I have known Susan for years, she has worked directly with Gore on Capitol Hill regarding environmental issues, and she has battled on Gore's and Kerry's behalf for many years. She maintains that Gore's environmental record is much stronger than Nader's. - Nina

[RememberTheCoup]

655. My condolences to those who have been used and abused by Bev Harris...

...although it probably would have been more of a comfort earlier on, but I wasn't following the melodrama until recently. At least now it seems that most people have become aware of how she's hurt people. Personally, I don't care whether she has a giant ego or an unpleasant personality. I only care when it starts interfering with progress on BBV and when it affects the very people who are working to expose BBV. I can't understand those of her defenders who argue that people should overlook her sins simply because she's supposedly doing good work. All the people she's attacked were also doing good work -- and often work that she has claimed credit for.

I'm a Democrat because I care about people. The activists Bev has hurt are people, and they are no less important than anyone else. If a big evil corporation had treated Bev's publisher the way Bev did, we would all be up in arms about the injustice done to a small, dedicated publisher who was doing so much good for so little reward. Yet, when Bev does it, it's somehow OK because she's a progressive -- oh wait, a "non-partisan" working on a mostly progressive cause. Incidentally, I find it amusing that she was reluctant to work with a certain editor because he was a moderate Republican, and yet she has no problem aligning with a far-right figure who admits he's in it for the money.

Additionally, the fact that she has solicited money from DUers means she has a responsibility to put the cause of BBV ahead of her own ego and personality issues. Frankly, she sounds like she needs psychological or psychiatric help. However, some of her supporters sound a little unbalanced themselves. Another poster had it right in saying Bev's supporters are as unwilling to acknowledge her flaws as Bush's supporters are. And just as Bush's supportes call his critics "unpatriotic", Bev's supporters call her critics "freepers" and worse (although sometimes freepers can be helpful, according to Bev).

[Vinnie From Indy]

663. I agree 100%

Well stated!

[Fly by night]

674. A post you won't see on BBV today

Good evening, everyone. I'm a short-time reader and first time poster. However, two days ago, my friend Wiley posted on DU a message that I had put on the BBV web-site after a very unpleasant, though blessedly short, phone conversation with Bev Harris this week. Wiley's post of my letter was then referenced by several other posters during the many threads that appeared prior to Bev's melt-down and DU banishment.

I too visited the BBV web-site this morning and saw the very few but uniformly fawning posts from Bev's fans. So I posted the following message summarizing my experiences with her. One thing's for sure -- she (or one of her lackeys) is now monitoring the BBV posts because my message never appeared. However, they must not know how to remove my original BBV messages about my unpleasant experience as a total stranger with Bev, because they still appear under older BBV threads. (I signed in on BBV as "Bernie".)

So for all remaining Bev fans on this thread who are wondering how capable she is to receive and respond to constructive suggestions, here is the entirety of my attempted posting on BBV this morning, a message that will never appear there. Read and ponder the basis for your continued support for Bev. Thanks.
------

"For those of you reading the CYA entries on this (BBV) blog since Bev's latest melt-down of several days ago, I want to make a comment. I called BBV several days ago and -- to my surprise -- got Bev on the phone just when her brouhaha (were that it were funny) was brewing with Keith Olbermann. As someone who is as concerned about this election theft as the rest of you, I had only wanted to encourage Bev to take advantage of the opportunity Keith was providing to get in front of a much wider audience. I had hoped she would listen to the advice and the request of a complete stranger, but certainly not a disinterested or unsupportive one.

"Instead, I got yelled at by two irrational people (Bev and someone else) who would not let me get a word in edgewise. My experience is still posted twice on this web-site (under the "Why wouldn't Bev let Olbermann see the poll tapes?" and "Bev's cell phone ..." threads.) While my post is still up on those threads, go and read my experience for yourself. After getting abused by Bev and her lackey several days ago, I wouldn't give her the time of day now. In fact, if I ran into her on the street, I would move to the other side and hope that she wouldn't follow me.

"Fortunately, a friend of mine re-posted my experience with Bev on the DU thread and a host of other people responded to say that Bev has treated them the same way, whether they were once friends or (like me) were total strangers who were supportive of what Bev claims she is doing. (Though none of us have seen the tapes yet, now have we?)

"So stop kidding yourselves, folks. Those of us -- like me -- who found blackboxvoting.org in our search for solutions to the vote theft coup are in the presence of a mad woman -- both literally and behaviorally. There are LOTS of places we can congregate and LOTS of stuff we can do. But listening to Bev's rants and then her feeble attempts to cover her ass ain't two of them. She reminds me of my abusive father, whose beatings of my mother were always followed by regret and distraction. Wake up, folks. There are other, more stable (or at least more skilled and more polite) people we can work with in this fight. Sadly, Bev and her "media director" aren't two of them. Peace, out."
----

Now enough about Bev. As far as truly effective action, I hope that everyone within a day's drive of Columbus, OH will fill the streets there with a Ukrainian-sized protest over our own "rigged" elections. As for me, I am writing letters to the Nashville Tennessean and our local television stations about the voter theft and doing everything else I can to increase the number of people who should have legitimate questions about the sanctity and security of our own democracy. If all of us do that in our own home areas, we can increase the proportion of people who believe our election was rigged to match Bush's faux victory margin. In writing my local letters, I would like to list the states where recounts have occurred, are planned or in progress, at the state or local level. So far, I have Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, New Mexico, Nevada, Washington and California. Are any DU readers aware of any other states where recounts have or will occur, at any level?

Thanks for being here. Though I've only been a DU reader this week, it has kept me up 'til the wee hours of the morning for the past four days. To paraphrase one of your other contributors, reading DU threads is like the mesmerized kitten, "... swatting at the shiny bauble...". Very addictive.

[Fly by night]

675. I know about New Hampshire too. Any others?

[saracat]

681. Apparently they have decided to spread as much dirt about DU as they can

throughout the media .Read this from als on blackboxvoting.org:



Here's something I posted on the Mile Malloy forum about this subject. I think it's on page 2 of the thread....
DU is a major liability if you are actually attempting to try to organize. The vast majority of the regulars just do not do anything other than type gripe posts into DU. They don't come to meetings. They don't dial phones. They don't knock on doors. They think posting on DU makes them activists. It doesn't. You actully have to actively DO something to be considered an activist. When I was one of those getting the unoffficial Dean stuff going nationally, I did try to get some DUers involved. I found some great people for Dean among people that were in the fringes that only occasionally posted. The "DU regulars" that I tried to bring in were pretty much worthless. I ended up having to find new people for all the slots I had tried to stick DU regulars into... with one exception, a young kid from Alaska who was incredible. He ended up doing major organizing work for Dean. (much more "major" than anything I ever did, in fact) We got the first Dean state interest groups up and running and holding meet-ups in 49 states (I personally never did get Wyoming going), and DU regulars were conspicuously absent from the Dean internet revolution.

You have to have the patience of a saint to try to get anything done at DU. I certainly don't have it. I don't know how Bev Harris lasted as long as she did in that negative, back-biting atmosphere. There's so many people there that play "make-believe activist", and when someone actually makes positive contributions through their work, they go insane with jealousy. If I had tried to stick it out there, I most certainly would detonated at all the attacks and would have made anything Bev Harris said in response to all the flamers she had at DU in the last 2 years look like the a book of quotations of St. Francis of Assisi in comparison. Nobody can participate in that much negativity, and not get dragged at least partially down into the muck. It can't be done.

http://mikemalloy.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=15447&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[AmyCrat]

685. Interesting. Now exactly who is being "back biting" and "unproductive"...

in 48 hours JSamuel and I manage to get a whole damn website up WHILE also participating here, reading latest news, making phone calls and then also doing whatever else non-web & election-fraud life calls for. One thing I know I didn't do was go and take the "Bev" argument around the web.

[americanstranger]

705. Sure, NOW DU is 'unproductive...'

Wasn't DU 'the greatest activist community on the web' when it was a fundraising outlet?

And I'm wondering what 'als' stands for. Someone's initials, maybe??

-as

[GrapesOfWrath]

706. afs was "Brad Majors"

on DU awhile back.

here is a portion of his post over at blackboxvoting.org:


First things first. Skinner is a former professional organizer for the DLC. Skinner is a disciple of Al From. He's been using DU as an instrument to promote Al From's agenda since the birth of DU.
I was one of the original orginal DUers. I was originally using the id "Brad Majors" (from Rocky Horror), them went to using my real name on the forum. I wasn't banned from DU. I walked out when Skinnner started allowing post promoting keeping Bush's entire tax cut package in place when Graham's Presidential campaign started advocating that position.


http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=20&viewmode=threaded

[Pastiche423]

729. IIRC, "Brad Majors"

is Adam L. Smith.

He attended one of the 1st large protests in Portland, Oregon in August 2002. It was the "peppered sprayed baby" protest.

Again, IIRC, he posted to DU on his lap top during the protest until he tripped and had to take a trip to the hospital.

Does anyone else remember this?

[GrapesOfWrath]

758. I do remember that!

Is this also the same person that learned he inherited "Huntington's Disease"? I've been worried about that poor soul since I hadn't heard anything else from him.

[hlthe2b]

701. Ugggh. i thought Bush* stealing the election was the ultimate in pain...

But this very public warring which is moving to multiple forums and chatrooms outside of Democratic Underground--is just wrenching. I understand the need for folks to vent here and to ask questions about a painful situation that is difficult for all, even though the sheer numbers and vitriol in some of the posts has been unfortunate and unpleasant. Yet, I still think even those most critical of BH still want her to succeed-- for all of our sakes. I take great solace in that.

Sadly, though, there seems to be a devil- may-care attitude on these outside forums (e.g., Mike Malloy's) in terms of the impact of horrifically disparaging posts--thereby dragging down DU, DUers, Bev, AND the voter verification cause.

A very sad couple of days, compounding a month of frustration and sadness....I think I need a good cry.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

688. I don't know who's right or wrong so I'll give everybody reasonable doubt.

That's my policy when I don't know what really happened.... Since I like Keith Olbermann and DU and had admired what Bev Harris was doing up until her recent stunt I will decide to like all of them. I know I can be an unreasonable beeeatch at times so I will forgive others for doing the same.

When people are operating under stressful situations - they can often do crazy things.

[Jeff Fisher]

728. Reinstating Bev Harris

Hello, Its been a long time since I have had a chance to talk to people at this forum. Joe Sandler at the DNC (Legal) last night informed my team in Miami that the DNC was going to take a proactive effort regarding the election fraud that took place in Ohio.

Tuesday, my campaign manager, Jennifer Ellis and I will be meeting with the DNC and several key members of the House of Representatives that plan on participating with Common Cause. Ms Ellis was recommended to help me from several people that participated in the Democratic Primary in early 2004. Ms. Ellis worked for Rev. Al Sharpton. I spoke with the Reverend on a couple of occasions and he is the most gracious and one of the truly patriotic American's I have ever spoken with.

Bev Harris is under a lot of stress. I know because I have experience the same kind of stress since July 27, 2004 when I learned of the fraud that took place regarding the 2000 General Election, the 2002 Florida Democratic Gubernatorial Primary and what plans they had perfected and were going to place into action across several states during the November 2, 2004 General Election. With the lock-down of the media it is very difficult to get the truth out. The people should be happy that Bev Harris is a patriot and exposed the corruption in Volusia County and be thankful that she is suing Theresa Lepore. As a footnote, people across this nation should be calling the state attorney in Palm Beach County, Barry Krischer(561-355-7100)and telling him not to hire her so she could collect a higher pension. If anything Attorney Barry Krischer (561-355-7100)should be bringing criminal charges against her instead.

Your forum is a tribute to democracy and it would be a travesty to see censorship win when that is what the GOP would like to see. I have received enough email from Republican operatives trying to debunk my truth and also what Bev Harris has done. The truth must be revealed. Reinstate her. Two nights ago I spoke with her staff and they have ensured me that I will receive in the near future a copy of the tape from Volusia County. That will be put up on my website ASAP. I don't blame Keith Olbermann, I blame his producer for not forwarding the truth to him regarding Bev's issue for not appearing on his show. I know because I was canceled three nights in a row by his producer. I saved the phone calls. It is time to unite as a nation and "Take Back America". It is time to accept the fact that to win back democracy the people must unite and demand a national re-vote. My name is Jeff Fisher and I am an American who will not take this election fraud anymore. I have seen the evidence and so has Bev Harris and thousands of other Americans across this nation. Join me Tuesday with Common Cause in Washington D.C. and then on Saturday at the Washington Monument as we "March for Democracy" to the White House. This march is dedicated to the First Amendment.

Jeff Fisher
561-889-2165
http://www.JeffFisherfoprCongress.com

[Kelvin Mace]

731. Jeff, have you READ any of the evidence

presented in this forum? Many people here have known and worked with Bev for several years, and we can tell you she makes a WONDERFUL first impression, but it doesn't last.

You owe it to yourself to do a bit of research into Bev and her past before your hitch your fortunes to hers.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[LoZoccolo]

732. Mr. Fisher, I'm William Jefferson Clinton.

I was President of the United States from 1993-2001. Bev insulted me several years ago by selling "El Presidente" cigars. We need to unite as a party, not invite dividers to stir chaos. Remember what I said a year ago - Democrats fall in love, and Republicans fall in line. We need to do both. Please fall in line behind the decisions that the Democratic Underground administrators have made.

Thank you very much,

[americanstranger]

733. That was pretty good.

I was going to do a Queen of England response, but thought better of it. :)

-as

[JohnnyCougar]

741. Mr. Fisher,

If you contact Bev, will you please tell her that she is only hurting her own cause by threatening lawsuits and publicly defaming people working for the same cause. We need to be united, not divided on this issue, and it is Bev that is doing the dividing. I witnessed it right here on this forum.

I want you and Bev to succeed as much as anyone, but drama and arguments seem to follow Bev around everywhere she goes. If she could just take a deep breath, calm down, and relax, this whole thing would be going much smoother.

On her forum today, she was accusing DU and everyone on it of being part of the conspiracy. DU and most of us on here do not wish to fight, but the way she acts makes it nearly impossible not to. We're all in this together, and if Bev took some time to appreciate that others are with her and not against her, I think everything would be working much better.

I understand that Bev's work is stressful, and it is going to take introspection and strength to succeed, and not combativeness and ego. If everyone, INCLUDING BEV was willing to put their differences aside at least temporarily, it would bring great relief to people around here and elsewhere.

I wish you the best of luck. I will pray for your and Bev's safety. And I hope you both succeed!

JohnnyCougar.

[hlthe2b]

772. Welcome, Mr. Fisher

I'm saddened that this is the subject of your first post, because this thread is a painful one for all involved.

Let it suffice to say that the majority of DUers wish Bev well and continue to support the cause and wish nothing but success for all of those working towards it. Historically most important causes have suffered some turmoil in its leadership and approach over time,as some have pointed out recently with the Civil Rights Movement, the MADD movement, and others-- but the truly dedicated stick with it and move it forward with time healing all. I hope and pray that will be the case here. Thank you for your efforts, Mr. Fisher. I hope we will hear more from you.

[Kelvin Mace]

734. Bev salary revealed

by Bev:

See above. My salary is $60,000, by the way, a fixed salary and this is about half what I made before becoming an advocate for voting integrity. I donated my rights to and all revenues to my book to the nonprofit corporation.

I guess the Monica cigars sold REAL well.

I wish I had that kind of paycheck. Donations must be doing pretty good.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=9&forum=DCForumID4410&omm=7&viewmode=threaded

edit to add link

[AmyCrat]

735. David... I side with you on a lot of these issues, but

to me, this is just getting into a real nasty area. $60,000 is my neck of the woods (NY) is okay, but certainly not lavish. I don't know about Seattle and won't pretend to, but I would definitely be more appauled to hear she's making $150K or more (assuming we are still on the same page, giving her the benefit of the doubt for the amount of time she's putting in).

I know she's done some really hurtful thing to you and a lot of people, but lets not get into this really accusatory area of misappropriated spending. Ultimately, I think it's just hurtful to any good work she is doing, and I for one would at least like to give her THAT benefit of the doubt (especially without any real proof of their financials).

[Kelvin Mace]

737. Let me explain why that sticks in my craw

Last year Bev was crying to me that she didn't have any money and that her furnace was broken and she was going to lose her house. She had also been invited to Swarthmore as a guest of honor and she didn't have money for plane fare, hotel, etc.

So, I advanced her money on her contract. I also paid for her trip to Swarthmore. I am a small company. It is my wife, myself and one employee. To pay her advance, I went without pay for two months (December-January). I sent the check FedEx before Thanksgiving. Despite her professed dire circumstances, she did not cash the check until the 20th of December.

She then ducked out of the Swartmore trip because she was "afraid for her safety" as "they" would know where she was.

Later when she issued her great fatwa against me, she told people I never paid her a dime. When I posted the canceled check, her supporters attacked me for not paying her enough money, calling me "cheap" despite the fact that I had given her EVERY CENT I HAD FOR THE NEXT TWO MONTHS!!

I was then accused of "bragging" about it. (????)

Bev has cost me thousands in legals fees (her lawyer works free), and over $100K in lost revenue and lost business.

I had to let my only employee go because I couldn't afford to pay her.

But she's getting paid, $60K plus expenses to jet around the country discrediting the very things we have all sacrificed so much for.

Yes, I am quite disgusted.

[AmyCrat]

740. I do understand...

and I'm sorry to hear all that. I really do get it, and can appreciate your side of the story, completely from a place of empathy, trust me!

And I don't at all doubt she screwed you.

I guess all I'm saying is that from an outsiders standpoint, while what she did to you was downright wrong, it doesn't mean $60K is an overly lavish salary for the amount of legwork she's doing. It might piss you off personally, and rightfully so, but it's not proof (at least to me) that she's overpaid, misspending or in this for the money. All those things MAY be true, but we really don't know all the figures.

I mean really, if you go into something for the money and are going to totally abuse the system, no one would really think $60K was some great payoff. Ya see what I'm saying?

Median household income in Seattle $42K (in NY it's $45K). Living in NY myself, I know NO ONE that has a household income of $45K who can actually manage to eat and keep their electricity on and pay their rent. Looks like cost of living and housing prices in Seattle are lower than NY, but substantially higher than the national average. It's really hard for me to judge, but I'm guessing that $60K in Seattle is NOT a rich person's life, or even an upper-middle class person's life, especiallly if you're putting in 50, 60 or more hours a week, traveling all over the place.

I'm just trying to stay objective. While I do "get" why you're peeved, I'd just hate to go down this road just yet, especially over $60K which doesn't seem so luxurious to me -- but maybe I'm wrong.

Could someone from Seattle chime in and tell me if that's a lot of money out in your neck of the woods?

[Kelvin Mace]

748. I don't believe

I claimed it was a lavish salary, but she is the ONLY person getting paid for this and then she pulls the stunts she does.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Whirled Peas]

742. As someone who lives in Seattle,

I can tell you that 60,000 is not very much at all. We are like San Francisco anymore -- very, very expensive.

"Starter homes" (translation: unfit for human habitation fixers) start around $350,000 - 400,000 dollars. Apartments are a couple thousand a month.

I think you would find that Seattle is less expensive than Manhattan, but more expensive than Brooklyn, Queens, etc. plus in Manhattan, you can eliminate the expense of a car, but Western cities just aren't as transit friendly. Ya gotta have a car, and all of the incumbent expense.

60K at a company in Seattle would be entry-level lower rung management or an administrative assistant with a couple of years' tenure.

And I think the 42K Median household income is the entire metropolitan area. 42K is a file clerk's salary in Seattle proper.


edited to add information

[AmyCrat]

745. that's what it's like in NY

...but even WORSE. $45K (our median) doesn't pay for much at all, and is NOT considered a lot of money... just "ok" -- now that's where I live, in the suburbs -- in the city $45K is more like a file clerk salary. It's about $20.00 an hour.

[Whirled Peas]

747. It seems that both places are quite expensive. The bottom line, I think,

..is that $60,000 is grossly underpaid for the head of a non-profit agency in Seattle. I know what several ED's make, as I sit on some boards, and $60,000 is low for Seattle, even in the non-profit world.

It seems that a whole lot of issues are getting all muddled together in this thread, some of which are germaine to others and some of which just seem to be...inappropriate.

The only consideration that should be given to whether Ms. Harris is paid appropriately or not is, should she be hit by a bus and replaced by the BBV.org board tomorrow, could a replacement be hired for the current salary for the position?

The answer is: not in Seattle, no.

Just for some balance in the discussion.

[Kelvin Mace]

749. I can think of

five or six people who would do a far better job and be thrilled to get a salary.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

(and no, I don't include myself)

[Whirled Peas]

750. Look, the previous poster asked for someone from Seattle...

...to evaluate whether $60,000 was an appropriate amount of annual salary for an ED for a non-profit based in Seattle.

I live in Seattle, I sit on several non-profit boards, and have done non-profit activism work for 20 years in Seattle.

So, despite having lurked on DU for over three years, and registering several weeks ago, I still hadn't posted. i'm just not that talkative. This seemed to be a reasonable point to make my first post, as I thought I had useful information to contribute to the discussion.

Thanks for the warm DU welcome.

[phantomvotes]

743. All Truth Known is History btruth twisted becomes myth

?? DOES anyone know or remeber the BATH PARTY ??

Don't forget about Jim

JIM BATH google JIM BATH

JIM JIM JIM BATH BATH BATH BATH

BATH: Sadam

[Chomskyite]

751. Not good news for us or the cause

I'm not sure I understand what this move of yours accomplishes, Earl. If her public posts were civil, what did it matter what she said in the alerts? You can just ignore those. We don't need to know about them.

If you start punishing people for reporting what they think are legitimate abuses, that takes us down a road I don't want to contemplate.

But to Beverly I would suggest that associating yourself with this board publically can't do you much good, since Republican enemies would no doubt use such an association to tarbrush your organization as a partisan tool.

[Catherine Vincent]

753. Oh dear.

Sweetie, please read this thread and find archived threads about Bev Harris? Her hitting the alert button religiously is not the main reason she was banned.

[JohnnyCougar]

754. I don't think you've even read the thread.

Bev's public posts were anything but civil. There are more examples of this than I can count. She was also threatening lawsuits. If someone threatened to sue me for no reason, I would have kicked them off my site faster than you can say "greased lightning."

[Catherine Vincent]

752. Before this thread gets locked.....

It seems that this rift between BH, DU and the others was boiling over. And then when my man Keith got burned by BH and called her a loon, all hell broke loose on DU. Even I was surprised that he would say that about BH, lots of trashing of Keith on DU. And no sooner after that, the shit hit the fan for BH. I guess Keith doesn't realize how he did us a favor. Thanks!

[Junkdrawer]

761. Posted wrong spot

[tommcintyre]

760. WONDER ABOUT THE MOTIVES OF SOME PROLIFIC POSTERS HERE?

To clarify my position, may I first say, for all I know, Bev may be a "loon", and made it impossible for the Du admin to do anything else at the time but ban her.

However::
1) She was/is one of the most productive producers of election fraud "ammo".

2) The timing is terrible to have something like this happen. (Only those who covertly want to undermine the election fraud movement truly could be happy about this - but, if they are here at DU, they will probably feign they are not - or are for "good" reasons.)

3) I believe Bev was, at the very least "baited" into this by a group that covertly doesn't want us to succeed, and they knew how Bev would react if provoked. The timing is what tipped me off first. You always have to ask: "Why is this happening right now"? What are the REAL motives of the provocateurs?

The day before the banning, some were legitimately questioning the wisdom or the "LeFore incident". Some others (more on them below) clearly jumped on the "opportunity" like they were waiting for a weak moment like this. They trotted out relatively "old news" (like the cigar stuff and mid-November disputes) and started hammering away with it (very reminiscent of how a certain political party we've seen recently operates).

This caused my "antennae" to go up! I quickly identified who was "the ringleader", and followed her around asking two simple questions: Why now? and What is your REAL reason for doing this? She methodically avoided answering my question (very reminiscent again), so I just kept responding to her posts, re-asking those questions. At one point, the facade came down, she totally lost it: "YOu are f*cking paranoid" (my Astrix).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=101119#101582
(please read our "give and take" around this post to get the "flavor" of what I believe was being "set up".

4) The most noticeable, prolonged morbid "feeding frenzy" in this thread is inexcusable, and has not so coincidentally been stoked and prolonged by key players on "the list" mentioned below.

--------------------------------------------------------------

After seeing my "give and take", I was sent a PM by a long-time duer. It was a list of 9 "usual suspects" (before Bev's ban). By no great coincidence, they are noticeably among the most active posters on this thread, if not the most active (a little while ago, I believe two of them were even playing "good cop-bad cop" there, playing off one another).

----------------------------------------------------------

Post from another thread of whom I consider the "ringleader" in this:

Check out post #11 and 12 here for a real "eye opener".

Post 11: (from someone who currently had 20 posts)

"Until she <Bev> produces something of substance, I believe she should be treated with the same skepticism that we show Limbaugh, Hannity, et. al."

Post 12: (The "ringleader's" reply)
"What an excellent post!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=101926#102014

-------------------------------------------------------

(I received the list shortly after the give and take with her there (and through other threads), that night. That was the night before this thread started.

My conclusion: Considering my experiences the night before, the list I received, and seeing these same "usual suspects" posting here so: prolifically, vehemently, and (I believe) manipulatively (even working together); I must conclude they are attempting to undermine the election fraud movement.

I thought a lot about posting this. That's one of the reasons I waited until now (the other is I wanted to see who posted here, etc.) I expect to take a lot of heat for posting this (I'll probably (at minimum) get the "newbie" putdown, called a conspiratorialist, etc. But, I felt if I kept silent, it would be no different then keeping silent about the election fraud. Many people in this thread have voiced that they could feel "something was wrong", but couldn't "put their finger on it" (And seemed to be silenced and/or intimidated, etc.)I would guess, many others, seeing the negtive tactics of some, chose to stay away.

The bottom line is, I knew some things, and it wouldn't be right if I kept quiet about them - no matter what the consequences to myself.

[republicansareevil]

767. Do you realize what you are admitting to?

"I quickly identified who was "the ringleader", and followed her around asking two simple questions: Why now? and What is your REAL reason for doing this? She methodically avoided answering my question (very reminiscent again), so I just kept responding to her posts, re-asking those questions."

Do you understand that it is a violation of DU rules to go around stalking certain posters -- such as following them from thread to thread and posting the same thing to them repeatedly? If you had done that to me I would have gone off on you too -- after alerting the mods of course.

You wonder about the "motives" of anyone who dares criticize Bev. Here is what I suspect people's motives are: many people have been shabbily treated by Bev Harris. DU as an entity has also been shabbily treated. Many sincere activists have donated their time and money to Bev Harris only to have her turn on them. I would suspect that the primary motive of people who criticize Bev Harris is to prevent others from becoming victims of the Bev Harris "use 'em up and spit 'em out" machinery. (David Allen, her publisher, is a particularly unfortunate victim, as he has incurred great financial losses because of her.) Perhaps her most active critics are the ones who have had the most personal involvement with her and therefore have the most to share.

But of course it is easier to believe that anyone who criticizes Bev Harris is simply trying to derail any progress on BBV. You can argue that it would have been better for all this to remain private and behind-the-scenes, but you would be ignoring the fact that Bev made this fight public by making serious public accusations against people. And at this point I think it's actually better for everything to be out in the open so that people who wish to donate time and money to the effort of BBV can decide for themselves whether Bev Harris is the best avenue of investment or whether another organization might be a better choice.

Also, don't you think it is a dangerous trait in a leader that she CAN be "baited" -- that it is known she will fly off the handle at any criticism and eventually implode? George W. Bush has that trait but he has an entire infrastructure in place to prevent him from being put into a position where he can have a meltdown. That's why there are the free speech zones wherever he goes, and why his followers have to sign loyalty oaths. It's why he won't do press conferences, and why he did so very badly in the debates. He is completely unable to tolerate dissent and Bev Harris seems the same way, but without the extensive infrastructure to protect her. Can BBV afford the luxury of having a leader whose personality is such a liability? If she can't control her emotions, perhaps it would be best for BBV if she stepped down as the public face and simply did her work behind the scenes.

[Junkdrawer]

768. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this whole thread "stalking" Bev?

:shrug:

[republicansareevil]

773. Um, no. Do you know what "stalking" is?

And I think someone who has come on DU and solicited for volunteers and financial donations and research contributions is in sort of a unique situation. I'm glad that DUers are being allowed to see every side of the story. They have a right to know before they decide whether to continue contributing their time and effort to Bev Harris.

If Bev wanted to keep matters private, she should not have opened the can of worms. Did she go to DU privately when she felt people were infringing on her "trademark"? No. She posted lawsuit threats in a public forum. Du had to go public for the same reason Olbermann did and for the same reason David Allen did -- because that's he Bev insists on playing it. And if DU and Olbermann and David Allen had not defended themselves publicly, they'd have an army of Bev supporters harassing them night and day.

Of course, if you don't like how this private website is run, you are free to take your "business" elsewhere.

[Junkdrawer]

762. So, was pillorying Bev the point of this thread?

I thought the admins had more class than this. Guess I was wrong.

What ever forces came to bear on NPR seems to have come to good ole DU. I guess it was inevitable in Bush's Amerika.

RIP DU.

:(

[tommcintyre]

763. I don't think that was the intention of the admins, I think they were used

1) Bev was baited, they probably knew from past experience how she would react.

2) The admins reacted (were used) as you might expect.

Bothe were pawns.. sound familiar?

Hint. Watch Bush's Brain if not.

[Junkdrawer]

764. I can't think of anyone else banned from here with a trashy 700+ post...

send off. Can you?

[tommcintyre]

765. No.. but the admins couldn't control that.. I was orchestrated after

Take a look at the "message control" by some. Not to hard to spot.. Their name.. post, post, post, etc. their name, etc. and how some were "framing the debate".

[Junkdrawer]

766. That's true. But the admins had many tools at their disposal...

Bannings have usually been done privately. In fact, the admins used to pride themselves in their discretion in these matters. And if a statement had to be issued, a pinned post would have sufficed. Also, after a hundred or so posts (or less) it was clear where this thread was headed.

To me, allowing this to go on as it has goes to motive.

[republicansareevil]

769. most banned posters aren't also public figures

If you think that Bev Harris would have kept silent about this if DU had not issued a statement, you are very mistaken. She has her own website to tell her side of the story, and she also has plenty of people speaking up for her on this thread. I doubt she is allowing any critics to post on blackboxvoting.org.

[tommcintyre]

770. What I can say with reasonable certainty is:

1) A group was identified in advance to me.

2) They were conspicuously present here.

3) Either the losing of a leader (especially at this critical time), or the obvious resulting alienation/discouragement of most likely a significant number of DU members, certainly isn't helping us to move closer to our goal (of exposing election fraud in time). Although, I'm sure an observant eye will notice that certain multiple posters here worked very hard to spin it this way (implied and/or stated: "we're lucky to be rid of Bev and it will help us").

[Skinner]

774. Motive for keeping it open? And if we had locked it, then what?

People would have said that we locked it because they had "exposed the truth" about me, that I was a "professional organizer for the DLC," and that we were trying to "hide the truth about Volusia county." In effect, if we locked the thread, some people would claim it as "proof" that their false claims were in fact correct.

Yesterday, EarlG and I had a very spirited discussion about whether to shut this thread down. It's clear that there is some very unfortunate and unnecessary piling-on here, and EarlG said that we should just do the right thing and shut it down. I was arguing that we'd get no credit from anyone for doing the "right thing," and would end up looking like we had something to hide. Whatever we do, we're screwed. I guess we decided by not deciding, and the thread stayed open.

But now I'll shut it down, because this thread ceased to be productive long ago. Best of luck to Bev as she continues to fight the good fight.

[Boredtodeath]

771. So you condone the behavior of Bev Harris?

You know, it's like I tell my kids all the time. It takes 2 to fight, you can't have a fight with a mute partner.

It was Bev Harris who used DU to pillory and accuse all who dared to question her methods and madness.

It was Bev Harris who used DU to air dirty laundry and make wild, unfounded accusations against anyone who dared to question her.

It was Bev Harris who made DU her personal slander mill to publicly demean this movement and the people active in it.

It was Bev Harris who used DU to fundraise and steal from people who truly wanted to believe her hyperbole and lies.

It was Bev Harris who consistently and constantly came to DU to attack her supposed enemies, including John Kerry and Keith Olbermann.

You condone this kind of behavior and call out the admins of this site for finally putting a stop to it????

The animosity directed at this thread is nothing more than 2 years of everyone but Bev Harris withholding their anger and disappointment "for the cause."

Finally, Bev Harris needs to meet the same standard as she demands of everyone else.