A thought on Kerry's strategy

[planetc]

This is probably a dumb thought, since I am not a particularly political person, but I thought I'd put it out anyway. It did occur to me, as I watch the people's demands for recounts unfold across the nation, that Mr. Kerry's rapid concession has left him in a pretty position in two ways. First, James Baker III cannot accuse Kerry of wanting the election to come out the way Kerry wanted it, a ploy that was devastating against Mr. Gore in 2000. In itself, that's a smart move, because the Republicans cannot mount an attack on a man who has gracefully given up. And second, the Republicans cannot ask the Supreme Court to stop the recounts, since they have no case in court, because they are uncontested winners. (For the moment, heh heh:evilgrin: ) So, it struck me that Mr. Kerry may be letting the people of America demand the needed recounts as much as possible--who could possible be against double checking that the vote was properly tallied and not tainted in any way? Nobody could be against that. And now that Mr. Bush appears to be president again, any move he makes to quash these recounts will make him look like a fascist. And the Republicans take care not to look like fascists, don't they?

So, we've had the Ohio recount requested by the other candidates, and we have the Washington recount supported by Mr. Kerry with his leftover funds, which he is not wasting, and of course we have Jesse Jackson coining some fine phrases, as usual, and we have a bunch of people marching, and we have ....well, we have lots of people across the country waving their flags in the air, and saying: "Just hold on a minute here!" My local paper called to verify my identity on Thursday, but they have not printed my letter yet. I took the opportunity to email the editor about 40K of excellent summary of the problems with the election, which I got from DU. He may still be reading, but I think that he will print that letter.

The sacred character of the vote in this democracy is one thing that both sides can agree on, and the people can and will make themselves heard.

[Eloriel]

1. I hate to burst your bubble

but Kerry HAS no strategy.

Unless, of course, you consider "hang back til it's perfectly safe to come out and claim victory after everyone else has done the hard work" a strategy.

Edited to add: OR "Gee, maybe it'll work in 2008?" a strategy.

[lonestarnot]

4. dingdong dingdong dingdong

Who's there? Strategical Expert.
Strategical Expert Who?
bubbleburster w/o credentials

[libmeayer]

18. Exactly and nor the DNC.

[bunny planet]

45. and you know this HOW???????

[Eloriel]

106. Well, if you REALLY want to know

I know some folks on the inside -- heavily involved with the recount effort. The Senator and his "17,000 lawyers" aren't really on this, tho it's not for want of trying to GET them ON this. Oh, sure, there was a token appearance in the recnet court case, but they're NOT involved with the recount effort otherwise. IOW: there IS no strategy more strenuous or risky than what I outlined above.

[bearfan454]

52. There is no 2008 for Kerry Eloriel

He stands up now or he doen't get my vote because it doesn't matter who runs. Jesus Christ would lose with rigged GEMS tabulators.

[bunny planet]

62. then don't.

[planetc]

74. You think the campaign was not hard work?

I think it was hard work. I also took some note of the media's response to the Florida "debacle" in 2000, and it has been burning a hole in my stomach lining ever since. Not only can the Democratic candidate count on no support from the national media, he can count on active hostility from the media.

[RubyCat]

85. You may be right. I'm disillusioned with Kerry.

Michael Moore did about half of the campaigning for him. MoveOn.org did the other half of the work. The remaining 0% was done by Kerry by saying he was anybody but Bush.

Please prove me wrong Kerry. I really hope you are operating under the radar for strategic reasons. But if you're not, and if fraud is uncovered, then Bush will leave in shame, but I don't want you to be president in his stead. All that talk about "I got your back" and "make sure every vote counts" would have been all bullcrap.

[KerryDownUnder]

113. Kerry himself said his strategy was just to be an "acceptable alternative"

Turns out it was a bad strategy.

[ClassWarrior]

2. I think that's a likely scenario.

We don't know the whole story yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if the JK/JE campaign surmised that the only chance of success against massive vote fraud would be exactly what you're suggesting.

NGU.

[JoMama49]

3. Not a dumb thought at all

This is a theory that has been expanded all over the Mike Malloy message board too. They point out that JFK is an experienced DA who investigated the Iran-Contra scandal and knows exactly what he is doing. They also conjecture that Michael Moore has something up his sleeve and is playing opossum for a good reason. I don't know if it's true, but I'm sure hoping, being patient and keeping the faith! For a more detailed scenario of the Dems' possible strategy, go on over to the Malloy board!
JoMama.

[flyarm]

68. kerry also was involved with taking down the bcci scandel!!

bcci world bank scandel..that we all pay off the crooks with our tax dollars...and who was invilved in our country..you guessed it..the bush boys...
and if no one has ever read or heard greg palast's story on "golbalization" its a must!!..kerry knows all this stuff folks...i would put nothing past kerry to have employed all the ex spooks ( cia) to do a sting ..or to set up the bush boys..remember..kerry is a prosecutor!! an attorney general..and he has been around the block a lot longer than old drunk boy!!..while drunk boy was drinking and drugging..kerry was building a career in d.c....but kerry also knows the cast of characters...cia pappa...
but believe me there were heavy hitters at the convention..who are people in the know..and there are many cia who hate bush..they can't stand the little bugger!!

kerry is smart..bush is dumb..rove thinks he is a genius..but an arrogant twit..
he's up against the big boys now!!

[Eloriel]

107. and hasn't done a damn thing since

people keep forgetting that little detail, and pretending to themselves that the BCCI scandal was yesterday or something. It's ANCIENT history, folks. What has he done for us lately -- or against the Bush Crime Family, for that matter? NOTHING.

[New Earth]

109. self delete

can't see you anyway

[Leilani]

95. He was also a "strong closer" &

a "chess player"

& Edwards was so "charismatic"

he could "charm the birds out of the trees."

[libmeayer]

105. Excellent one. LOL!

[Eloriel]

111. You forgot Mr. Electability

Of course, I actually DO believe that The People elected our ABB candidate, so I shouldn't quibble -- even tho he ran a lackluster campaign, even tho he didn't fire back at the Swift Boat Veterans until it was nearly too late, even tho ... aw, nevermind. He won, pure and simple, but can't be bothered to pick up the pieces to oust the worst pResident this country has ever seen, a destroyer, a criminal, a pathological liar, a warmonger, another Hitler.

If Ohio were to flip -- it would if the votes all get counted but I'm not totaly expecting that to happen (another nice terrorist attack would be a good distraction if things got especially intense in Ohio) -- Cobb and Badnerik would be the ones who DESERVE to sit in the White House, not Kerry. There's no way that'll happen, of course, but that IS my sentiment.

[pacalo]

108. Could you please give me a link where I might find these topics

on the MM message board? I've searched his board & I can't find anything along these lines. I have faith in Kerry & I'm interested in reading these theories. Thanks. :)

[Kurovski]

121. People here have been speculating on this

since the day after the election.

Nothing dumb at all about these ideas.

Do you really think President Carter would have nothing to say about all this? Howard Dean? The fiery Mr. Gore or Al Sharpton?

We ALL saw how the Repubs operated in 2000, and how they've operated since. And more importantly, how the MEDIA operates. MSM, that is.

When it comes, it's all going to hit the Republicans at once with enormous force.

[lonestarnot]

5. Precisely....

But I'm not sure Kerry wants your insight published. LOL

[SueZhope]

6. I love this & thank you for keeping the faith

Time will tell...
we are all guessing & hoping

If Kerry ends up having done nothing then I will know
he was a politician only..not a great leader.

To ignore all this Fraud and doing nothing
would be against everything he seems say he
stands for.

[SnoopDog]

7. I would say...

I would say that there are at minimum two possibilities:

1) Indeed, Kerry gave up and he is wind surfing (even in winter). It is possible I hate to admit. (If so, it is a larger plot beyond belief). But I don’t think so.

2) He knew what to expect and he is skillfully plotting the exposure of this fraudulent election. And to win the election. This is my choice.

So, planetc, I agree with your thoughts.

Kerry had to pick one state, a key state such as Ohio, to focus on. Florida is out (think Jeb *). With Blackwell as SOS, and so many improprieties, Ohio will be the state to overturn. His carefully worded concession speech, paraphrased “all votes will be counted’ tells me that this is the focus. A lot of people have stated that to put up a fight from the start would have been completely wrong for a number of reasons (not to go into that here).

When the Ohio recount is completed, and Kerry won, well, that is ‘end game’. The candidate with the winning number of electoral votes is President. No ‘ifs’ ‘ands’ or ‘buts’ (even, unfortunately, if * wins). Some people have stated ‘but Kerry conceded’. No, in my opinion, the candidate with the winning electoral votes is President. Period!

Keep the faith – always.

[justsomegirl]

12. re: Option 1

I wouldn't call this windsurfing (from Yahoo!News):



Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., places a bouquet on the casket of Marine Lance Cpl. Dimitrios Gavriel of Haverhill, Mass., during funeral services, Thursday, Dec. 2, 2004, at Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington, Va. Gavriel was based at Camp LeJeune, N.C., and was killed in action last month outside Fallujah, Iraq. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh)

[SnoopDog]

14. It was just sarcasm!

It was just sarcasm to point out that it is ludicrous to say he isn’t fighting!

[seito]

32. Thank you justsomegirl

Welcome to DU :hi:

John Kerry, a real American hero taking time out to honor another American hero. I wish that others could see. He truly is "The Real Deal"

[flyarm]

40. that picture speaks volumns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the silence, the talking points from everyone around this recount, conyers letter to blackwell...think about it ..everyone is saying the same thing..like out of a script!! we are not doing this to over turn the election...the hell they are not!!

kerry is playing this perfect!!...look how presidential he looks,...and how many funerals of our troops has bush attended?????ohhh none you say!!..yeah...

kerry is doing exactly what he had to do...get his lawyers into ohio..find the fraud..we dont know how many statiticians he has hired! or how many x cia guys..or how many he had set up before the election!!..kerry is not a dumb man..he busted the bushes in the bcci world bank deal..he busted iran contra...he has a history with the bushits!! and he didnt shy away before..why would he now?? this is a man who fought to find all pow's from nam with mccain..years ago..

who remembers the blurb that the so called news ran when kerry was speaking supposedly off the record and the camera man caught him..saying these guys are ( something like) these are bad people , really bad people...who remembers that?? don't think kerry said that by mistake..he wanted that picked up...
as much as we think we know and do know...we can't touch what kerry knows!!
kerrys best friend is max cleland...max was on the 9/11 commission until he decided to work on kerrys campaign...dont think for a moment max doesn't know what happened on 9/11..
i am a just retired 33 yr american airlines flight attendant ny based 2001 AA flight attendant of the year 2001 ny base...and i had the opportunity to speak with max..on opening day early vote in fla...when i spoke about my coworkers and the people that died in my home town ( middletown nj) max had tears in his eyes ,..and he held my hand while i spoke..,max knows..max knows it all ..and if max knows it all..kerry knows it all...and i have no doubt about that..as i had the opportunity to meet kerry numerous times , and got to speak to him about getting the truth for my nagels..my co-workers...they are my angels and i have tried my damnest to be a voice for them , since they were silenced...on that beautiful sunny perfect sept day..kerry several times looked eye ball to eyeball with me and promised me we would get the truth...mrs kerry rubbed her fingers on my wings..i wore them to every kerry event..she looked me in the eyes, and took her finger and rubbed my wings...and i told her i had to get my coworkers and their families the truth...she got tears in her eyes as i began to cry saying it...i always cry when i speak of my beautiful angels..
i also got the opportunity to be in a very small forum with BOB KERRY a 9/11 commissioner, who was out stumping for jfk..i was tough on him..i was ready for him and i sat a couple feet from him so he had no where to run no where to hide...bob kerry knows bush and his thugs were complicit in 9/11..or hes the dumbest man on earth..there is no other there, there..there is no grey area!!..so two men who were on the 9/11 commission were fighting for kerry...don't you for one minute think kerry has dried up and gone away...kerry is smart..he is a brilliant man..he knows what he was up against.kerry is a thinker..kerry is a planner..kerry is a former prosecutor..with a pit bull edwards as his partner..they know what they are doing..and i assure you karl rove with all his arrogance..is going to find out soon the mistakes he made..after all all criminals make some kind of mistake...espcially arrogant ones!!
please be patient..

kerry is a winner..hes a fighter..and he is a smart chess player...and then of course..he has a pitt bull by his side!!

now dont go off thinking i have any inside info ..i do not..
but i know the man ..from my heart and my gut...

just take a few moments to think of who and what kerry is...and you will have to realize kerry knew this was going to happen...and he planned on it..and he is playing this like the grandest chess game...there are no second chances on this..it must be perfect in every way..and kerry must stay presidential...go back and look at that picture...like i said..it speaks volumns!!
and if i am right..( i pray i am) jfk still has our backs!!

from a fla delegate.

[JoanneNH]

48. That picture DOES speak volumes...

I saw that one and others when looking for info regarding John Kerry the other night. I haven't posted lately but have been reading everything on this board about what is going on in Ohio. I don't know what John Kerry is thinking, but he is way too intelligent and has too much class to go running around with his head chopped off looking for votes. I'm sure he has people who are doing that for him. John Kerry is having a party here tonight for volunteers and supporters because we are the only state that changed from red to blue on Election Day. We elected a Governor who is a Democrat instead of re-electing the sitting Republican AND John Kerry won! The press isn't invited to this event so I'm sooooooooooo anxious to hear what John Kerry has to say. He may be more candid without all those reporters there. Hopefully I'll get a feel for what he's thinking regarding Ohio.

[flyarm]

65. ohhhh will you email me and let me know all about it??!!

ohhhh go and enjoy for all of us!! he came here so many times before election..and we won nothing..or i should better say..jeb took all from us..we got no seats on anything..we can not buy attention now!!but the sob will never get my heart or soul...and i will never stop fighting this bush cartel!!

enjoy and please please let me know how it went!! thank you ...send him our kindest regards from pinellas ( clearwater) florida!! fly

[Farmgirl]

110. JoanneNH

Would you please be so kind as to do a follow-up post about the party JK is having for volunteers and supporters in NH. Include some pictures too -- if you would. Way to go New Hampshire!!

:kick:

[bunny planet]

55. Thank you flyarm, exactly my sentiments

;-)

[SueZhope]

63. very touching flyarm

Thanks for sharing your experience that was beautiful.

Your words touched my heart.
Max & Kerry men with hearts.....the way you shared about the 9/11 angels

I do remember what Kerry said about the crooks and have been thinking the same thing your saying .

I found Kerry's quote:
"Oh yeah, don't worry man. We're going to keep pounding, let me tell you -- we're just beginning to fight here. These guys are the most crooked, you know, lying group of people I've ever seen."

The American people really dont like crooks sadly enough of them truly believe that the Bush crime family are good men ...its time for a wake up .

May those angels that were lost from 9/11 and those angels who fought Honorable
for Bushes unjust war help guide us to gain our country back, without out democracy the rest does not matter.

[flyarm]

66. re: very touching

i so agree with you!! thank you!!!

[planetc]

76. Thank you flyarm--

For your testimony about 9/11 and Bob Kerrey and Max Cleland. I too think 9/11 ... well, what I think about 9/11 makes my blood run cold. Mr. & Mrs. Kerry and Mr. & Mrs. Edwards are a splendid team to lead this country, and to bring some justice and meaning to the lives of those who died on 9/11.

[clover]

77. lovely. just lovely, and i take what you wrote to heart. thank you. (nt)

[IndyOp]

97. flyarm thank you for witnessing...

for John Kerry, for Max Celand, for John Edwards, and for your Angels.

O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)

I am working very hard everyday to get the truth out to media and congress and citizens and, still, the past few days I have been feeling what you seem to be feeling - a certain calm at the center of my chaos. I campaigned for Dennis Kucinich. I still love Dennis - he is great man. And, for the mission that presents itself right now - I am really, really, really glad that John Kerry stepped up to say, "Send Me." JFK has the connections and the power to overturn this result and to bring truths to light.

[bunny planet]

53. Thank you Justsomegirl. I was just going to rail again against the Kerry

bashers and show them these very pictures. Windsurfing my ass, flip-flopper my ass, are these people trashing Senator K card carrying Swift Boat Liars or what?

I think there is a third possibility,in reference to the thread topic,and that is that K might not have been prepared for the voter fraud and disenfranchisement to go down quite the way it did. Maybe he thought * wanted to fiddle with the vote, but just couldn't get away with it on such a grand scale. Now however, I think JK is on it, and he is indeed playing like a prosecutor, as low key as possible, until the pounce.

I still think it's equally likely that K/E have had a plan all along to bring * down, what better way than to catch him red-handed. There are also so many other scandals brewing against *, eventually one is going to blow wide open. Pillsbury Roveboy can't keep all those balls in the air at once, not humanly possible (not that there is evidence that he is human). I frankly think the military and intelligence people (those that quit, not the clones who have been left in place under Goss) are quite fed up with Mr. * and that there will be a 'night of the long knives' in reverse happening soon, if you catch my drift.

If we can't overturn, we must Impeach. I personally am waiting to see what happens with the contesting of the election. If it looks like we've lost on that front and Bushbaby will be coronated,it's time for the 60's all over again. Protesting, and putting pressure every waking minute on our representatives to stop the madness!!!! There's got to be a way for us to effect change, if Ukrainian citizens can do it, why can't we? I'll admit it's difficult, I have so much work I've been neglecting just trying to write as many letters and make as many phone calls, and make donations to help recounts etc. We all have busy lives, but our country is slipping away from us. I lived through the sixties and the Vietnam War and I have never seen our government so corrupt and so frightening in its unchecked power. Even then the climate of fear about speaking out was not as pronounced as it is now.

I will never believe as so many on these threads insist, that Kerry is not fighting for us. He is the real deal people, if he is guilty of anything it is that he was too trusting that honesty would win out over criminals. It won't, unless you fight for it. And I believe he will fight and is fighting. There is nothing wrong with hanging on the sidelines and observing what's going on until you can make your move. It's chess, it's military strategy, it's smart, and it's the only way to beat these asswipes at their own dirty game. We don't have a media, and we don't have transparency in any branch of government. The DNC is useless as far as I can see. I'm sure K is going to have to do this alone or with a few well chosen allies. Give him a break for f**ck's sake, he's spent two exhausting years running for office, and his partner's wife has cancer. He is doing something, he just isn't i.m.ing you all about it.

Sorry Justsomegirl, only the first part of this post was in response to your thoughtful posting of the pictures. The rest obviously was in response to original topic and Kerry bashing downthread.

[TexasChick]

56. OMG, "Pillsbury Roveboy" LOL!!! It did take two years to bring Nixon

down. Whether Kerry brings these crooks down or not, their lies are going to catch up with them some way or another!

[bunny planet]

119. Look I made a Pillsbury Roveboy!!!!!!

I hope this works.

[SueZhope]

101. great post.....did you make this up?

Pillsbury Roveboy

That is hysterical!!!

[bunny planet]

104. yes.

:eyes:

[bunny planet]

120. Here he is, he's poppin fresh! Pillsbury Roveboy!

[KerryReallyWon]

103. I agree with possibility #2

Recently, when Kerry repeated that every vote will be counted, he added this time after that, "and every vote will be counted accurately". I know Kerry was aware of this electronic voting situation. Stay tuned!

KerryReallyWon

[suziedemocrat]

8. Excellent Post!!!

I hope you are right and I hope your LTE gets published!!!

:yourock:

[Farmgirl]

9. Planetc....

I've been mulling this over too. I do think that things are not what they appear to be, but what they are -- is anyone's guess. I've been trying to come with some logical steps or progressions (as I tend to be a more logical, analytical type person).

So -- first off, whether or not Kerry thought he would "lose" or not, is an interesting question. I do believe that he believed a win was possible if the people turned out (which they did). I also believe that he knew far too well what went down in 2000, and that was a REAL possibility the election could be/would be stolen from under his nose (our noses). So, I think there was some type of general strategy in place for that...more specific, that's the part that none of us know and he ain't telling.

Now, so here we are...Kerry supposedly "lost" the election. I do agree that Kerry really had no choice but to "concede" the election early on, so that the process could play out. The process, well that's what you and I and prominent folks are doing (some up front, some behind the scenes). The million dollar question is whether Kerry is the "mastermind" behind all this "coordinated" investigation, or it is more of a "people's will" with Kerry's folks taking an active, "low-key" roll. I assume that some day we'll all find that out.

Here's the piece I'm trying to resolve in my own mind. First off -- let me say FLAT OUT, that I would be ecstatic beyond words if the election could or would get turned around for K/E. But how? Yes, we have Conyers involved. Yes, we have Arnebeck involved. Yes, we have so damning information by Madsen coming out. Yes we have some very limited MSM coming out. But the crooks controll it ALL. Kathrine Harris Blackwell is running down the clock. The electors meet on Dec. 13th. Is there -- will there be ample time to count the votes? Will the information that Arnebeck presents amount to anything? Will the electors still cast their vote for their buddy *? Will it get tied up in the court?

Okay, best case scenario is that this moves forward, and proof comes forward that Kerry got the votes...then what. Unfortunately, whether it be 61 million people who voted for *, or 60 million, or 59 million, or 58 million -- the fact of the matter is that a lot of people voted for *. Kerry isn't going to come from behind the scenes and jump forth to claim the presidency in light of all the civil unrest and opposition. The wackos will come out in force. So -- even if Kerry can be proven to have won -- how do we get him into the WH?

Sorry for that rant --

:shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

11. Remember that the first goal isn't to put JK in office...

It's to expose fraud, frogmarch the perps to the federal pen, and fix our broken frickin' voting system. If I read JK and JE correctly, I think this is their first goal too. And if they get into office too, that's bonus.

NGU.

[seito]

36. ClassWarrior, you hit the nail on the head every time.

We need to fix this election process or we will NEVER hope to have a free nation. This is too critical to ride in with guns blazing.

It is not going to be an easy fix. It is going to be a long grueling battle which will require a united group of dedicated individuals that are willing to fight. We have to gain a credible voice in the media, we need to gather evidence, and we must pursue this until we have justice and real reform.

[seshers]

15. Good question...

I wondered the same thing: How do we quell the * "wackos" if K/E does win. I think back to my school days, where a number of students had no problems cheating on their test, papers, etc. I think there are people who want * in office no matter what the cost(IE. cheating on election).

[ginnyinWI]

59. I love all you posters in this thread!

Way to go!

My two cents: one thing that we do know for sure, is that we don't know everything that's going on! Nor do we need to, for now. That's where trust comes in--trust Kerry and Co. to do the right thing--and I do. I trust that anything that can be done, will be done.

[indigonation]

10. There was an article posted on that very theory....

...Not too long ago. I cant remember what it was called, but maybe someone else can produce it.

There were other stories that many of John Kerry's blunders were actually traps set up by the GOP that he walked right into. They anticipated his behaviour after the election, but he didn't bite. He held back. And I think there was coordination with the Nader/Cobb/Badnarek campaigns, because there was no chance for anybody to win but the Shrub.

I agree with your thinking. JK is smart and an activist, but not a great campaigner. If lawyers are needed to contest the results, he's already got the cash and the team lined up. If nothing happens, he has nothing to lose. The GOP protesting will look like the bad guys trying to prevent an investigation into the questionable election results.

[indigonation]

64. Here's the article:

A good read.
INSIDE THE ELECTION FRAUD BATTLE - Nov 10

[Patsy Stone]

81. That saved me a post! :) Thanks!

This is a great article, it made me happy when it first read it. It made me happy because I thought that the silence, from everyone, was too impossible to ever take seriously.

We have to believe that everyone who ever fought for civil rights, suddenly changed their minds about that topic and decided that it really doesn't matter after all. Um, yeah...right.

[indigonation]

87. Glad you liked it too

Getting to know more about John Kerry during the election, he never struck me as someone who would just roll over and die quietly. When the Nader/Cobb/Badnarek bandwagon came in, and the Dems still quiet with their lawyers and cash, you knew something had to be going on.

[Patsy Stone]

91. Yes.

JK is no stranger to Rovian psyops and Machiavellian manuevers.

I posted some Sun Tzu quotes below, in answer to another post. I think they do apply, and I think Sun Tzu is a philosophy that has not escaped anyone's attention.

I can't say if anything will happen prior to * taking that oath on 1/20, but I see there may be a much, much bigger plan to bring down the whole damn gang of 'em. That would be sweet.

[indigonation]

93. I've had my tin hat on too.

Oh please oh please oh please be true bring down the * cartel.

[saracat]

86. Not a great campaigner?

You run six times for the Senate and defeat a very popular Governor, Wm Weld.Sheesh. Kerry is a renowned campaigner. The image of him as not good was created by the Shrub campaign. The debates alone should have shown you what a campaigner he is. What drivel . Sorry.

[indigonation]

89. Look, I admire him too

He should have won. A chimp could have beaten the Shrub. But the Rove machine was better...or dirtier. Assuming the election wasn't stolen. Maybe that would have been better stated. :)

[LisaL]

13. Well, I am looking at the Ukrainian opposition-they are actually

getting a brand new election. And not because their leader's "strategery" was to wait and see how it all plays out.
:eyes:

[ClassWarrior]

16. And they don't face a Sciafe-backed corporate media...

...or any of the other obstacles that the Radical RW has erected here. I really hate the black-and-white, two dimensional thinking that goes on around here sometimes -- with the scarcastic rollie-eye smiley to boot.

NGU.

[seshers]

20. Head of the Class

ClassWarrior

I am new to posting but I have been reading BLOGS since the election. I search out your posts. You represent the issues and yourself excellently.

Thank you

[ClassWarrior]

29. Thank you. I'm flattered. And welcome.

NGU.

[LisaL]

21. Why even bother to fight-the obstacles are just too great?

It's no surprise really that we didn't win this election.

[seshers]

23. You must be kidding...

We MUST. Even if fighting is all we can do. You must be heard, no matter how faint. If not for your country, then for your own peace of mind. Doing what is right, fair, and noble feels good.

Wise up and rise up.

[LisaL]

28. Actually, I was talking about Kerry's "strategery".

[ClassWarrior]

30. Did you ever read Sun Tsu? If not, I'd recommend him.

Sometimes not fighting is fighting.

And if you presume to know my history at all here, you know damn well I'm not advocating giving up. In fact, my personal motto, on the bottom of every post of mine from Nov.3 on, is:

NGU. = Never Give Up.

[txindy]

49. "The Art of War"

CW, you and I think alike. I've had Sun Tzu's book in mind ever since Nov. 3rd. Excerpts such as:

" If the general cannot control his temper and sends troops to swarm the walls, one third of them will be killed, and the city will still not be taken.

This is the kind of calamity when laying siege to a walled city.

Therefore, one who is skilled in warfare principles subdues the enemy without doing battle, takes the enemy's walled city without attacking, and overthrows the enemy quickly, without protracted warfare."

Let the cynics roll their eyes and say there is no strategy simply because they're not privy to it. They're not supposed to be. Neither are we. That's the point. The difference is, we understand that.

[flyarm]

69. yes and do remember..

kerry said throughout the campaign..that he would do the war in iraq smarter..much smarter...i see this election as his first war..and i know he knew it would be!..he will be smarter...and look who he is working with...edwards is the wiz kid..the pit bull...the war is in the stratigic stage...wait till the shock and awe..this will be quick and decisive ..if they have the goods!!

[ClassWarrior]

71. So true, my friend.

JK's a warrior. There's no way he hasn't read "The Art of War."

Peace.

NGU.

[Patsy Stone]

83. Attack by Stratagem and more of Sun Tzu's Greatest Hits...

"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it..."

"With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem."

"Reduce the hostile chiefs by inflicting damage on them; make trouble for them, and keep them constanly engaged; hold out specious allurements,

"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt."

So, I think any of those could work here. There are so many more, but everyone should go read this if you already haven't. It speaks volumes about what this thread is all about.

[ClassWarrior]

112. The man knew what he was talking about those many years ago...

NGU.

[planetc]

79. We won the election

With energy, hard work, lots of money from small donors, and on a clean campaign. Now all we have to do is prove we won.

[bunny planet]

58. ummm, in Ukraine I believe they still have state-sponsered TV, and the

winning (fraudulent) candidate had the blessings of Putie-pute-Putin (and * behind the scenes). One of the ways they got out news of fraud was with a brave interpreter for the deaf signing the truth during their 'isn't our new leader swell' Ukraine-Faux News broadcast. She was down there in the little box in the corner of the screen signing during the newscast, something like 'What they are telling you is bullshit, there was fraud in this election and I refuse to interpret their lies. I might never be seen again' (come to think of it, what did happen to that poor woman?). Why couldn't we have thought of that???? Maybe we still can, has * locked up or disappeared all the Democratic deaf interpreters in the American media yet?

[seito]

37. That never would have happened here

Too many people are plugged into FAUX and CNN. The American people are brainwashed at a level never before seen in this country. Just look at Canada and contrast that with this country.

Almost 50% of the American people actually believe that shrubbie is keeping them safe. We are living in bizzaro world.

[buddysmellgood]

17. I agree. There is little to gain right now, by having Kerry directly in

the fight. But at some point, whether the outcome would change or not, he has to stand up for democracy.

[seito]

38. If you have not watched his video

I would recommend it.

www.johnkerry.com

It does not sound like he has given up to me.

[flyarm]

42. and kerry put his life on the line for this democracy!!

don't give up on him...he fought..for the very thing this democracy stand for, the values ...the whole shabang..

do you really think he wont fight now???....if you think not..you don't know jfk!!

[seito]

44. Thank you for that post flyarm

Many of us feel the way that you do.

If you doubt who John Kerry really is, go out and rent "Going Upriver"

This is not a man that takes our Democracy lightly.

[ginnyinWI]

60. An excellent video based on an excellent book.

I just finished reading "Tour of Duty" and would highly recommend it. It just came out in paperback with updates this September. What a life that guy has had.

[seito]

88. I just started reading "Tour of Duty" last night n/t

[buddysmellgood]

46. I agree. I hope you're right. I hope he is the same man he was.

[whalerider55]

19. planetc

we've been talking about this on another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=106184

i posted some information i had gleaned during a dinner with someone who saerved in the financial management team of the Dem Nat COnvention, wired into the DNC and the Kerry campaign.

when i put the hard question to him about what Kerry was up to, he was unequivocal in his response- 2008. He told me that he was unaware, and that everyone he talked to on a regualr basis was unaware that Kerry's team, and likely Kerry, thought there were enough votes to be gleaned to "turn it around" for him, and that the campaign was not going to make the case for enfranchisement in general because of the perceived damage it would do to a campaign in 2008. That is a completely illogical strategy, but consistent with my expereince of John Kerry, who i think could be another roosevelt if he were president and the times get as bad as i think they will, here in Massachusetts. He is intelligent, nuanced in his thinking; this is part because he is so bright and he is processing a lot ofd information to come up with an answer, and part of it really is a tendency to see which way things are going before stepping out front to lead the parade. that should not be taken as in any way impugning his abililty and capacity to lead, both of which have been more than demonstrated to me over the years.

its just the frame of mind that i believe he's in right now; i see no evidence to dissuade me, and i respectfully suggest that it not the place for a leader to be.

and i hold the other elected dems- like kennedy leahy, biden, bayh, feingold, boxer, et al to the same standard on this issue.

the big test in my eyes will be which one, or whether all of these stand to support the house petition to investigate the lection results throughly before accepting them in january.

whalerider55
he also said that general DNC folks were still really pissed that Kerry sat on money BEYOND that which had been set aside for legal challenges to the results.

please feel free to disbelive this, or flame the messenger because this information appears to support my contention thatthis is a strategy that may make some marginal sense politically, but is a loser in the long run because the newly envigorated dem activists need to see this party as willing to go to the mat for something.

also, a low-key approach to enfranchisement damages literally hundres, if not thousands of down-ticket races, which are really as important now as the presidential race. i agree with classwarrior that the goal of this is not to put kerry in office; i just wish more people were expressing publicly those sentiments.

take it with a grain of salt, do with it what you will.

[seito]

43. The next few weeks will tell us a lot

as to whether or not our Democratic leaders are serious about fair elections and voter rights. The time for action was not Nov 3rd, before we really knew how deep the rabbit hole actually went. The time for action is now.

We have to realize what a tremendously strong evil we are up against. The opposition holds all of the cards. They own the televised media, and they had a ambush laid in wait for John Kerry, had he chosen to fight on Nov 3. It was wise to proceed with caution and strategy.

Our Democracy is so much more important than this election. We must hold the media and our elected officials responsible. I firmly believe that the opposition and the media did not see this thing coming. Whether John Kerry supported the actions taken by the GLIBS and the people is really not the issue. It was a brilliant move, instead of assaulting the fortified front, we slipped in rear while no one was looking. The truth will come out and when it does, the media will have little choice but to report it.

[whalerider55]

78. seito

i have not been making my point clearly, and i apologize.

I believe the most effective strategy would have been for multiple fronts of attack, beginning systematicvally before the election when it became clear that there was a decentralized but emphatic pattern of disenfranchsement occurring. there is no one strategy i am advocating. But to the best of my knowledge the irony is that the elected leadership has not taken a place at ehe table to create a strategy multi-pronged, collaborative strat.

i cannot apologize for thinking that.

the most effective attack would have combined grassroots activism with an effort to to make an unrelenting moral and legal case elevating enfranchisement as critical for fair elections, now and forever. it could have been a case made by the reamining republicans of conscience (my life expereince tells me that even when a majority of people are evil, there are some- many who are not... for example, not all democrats are paragons of progressive thought. Some are even thieves and corrupt)

democrats should be pushing binding (or even) non-binding resolutions in every branch, and every level of government (from congress to state legistlatures to city councils) affirming their support of the right to vote and have it counted fairly. Let the pugs argue that they don't think this is a good idea.

shit, friends... if the repugs can repeat the big lie and turn it into the bastard child of truth, why can't we repeat the truth and move it into the public discourse, at least.

this isn't about kerry, it isn't on his shoulders.

right now, its on ours. i'm a lazy fucker who believes in democracy, i simply want to share the burden. particularly with those who would suggest that being elected by us makes them leaders.

lets have a debate about what leadership really is. that would help.

a multi-pronged campaign for truth could have, and still could be moved forward on multiple levels.

it would have encouraged a public dialogue to occur in which church leaders, and political leaders, especially democratic leaders, recognized that this goes way beyond Kerry.

right, the media won't cover it because they are in the pocket of the wingnuts. but you know somehow, the dems, the greens, the churchs, the anti-poverty groups, the voter registration groups, the third parties managed to get out the largest vote ever amassed for a democratic candidate. have we suddenly forgotten everybody's address? If we can't prioritze the importance of getting their votes counted, can we expect they will remember ours when they dial into the next election?

everytime someone responds to my own concerns expressed here, they tell me that Kerry didn't step into the ambush. I'm glad for that.

but sheesh, folks. the ambush is that democracy is being flushed down the toilet because leaders won't lead, and the vaccuum is being filled by thuggism and a grassroots campaign that is struggling to get untracked because the public dialogue is dominated by Bush planning for his next term, democrats saying that "well, the Gonzalez appointment is on track (Pat Leahy.) At least, if you think it imprudent to say the sob isn't fit to serve, you could keep your mouth shgut about anything to do with Bush 04-08 until the damned hearings.

this is not now, and for me hasn't been about Kerry since November 3rd. this is about democracy.

and when will it become OK for the Dems to publicly say, whisper, hint AS A FUCKING LEADERSHIP group, that there might possibly could be something a tad funky with the process of this election... 2000, 2002. How many elections before they before they speak out. These guys really seem to have perfected the art of electoral theft.

no vote. no elections. just the rich getting richer, the screwed getting more screwed. Doesn't exactly sound like the deomcratic platform that inspires my confidence.

i guess for me, the moment of truth, since I remain blind to what may be the most subtle and nuanced public strategy to address circumstantial evidence of a decentralized perversion of the constitutional right to vote, will be if the elected leaders stand up and support the house petition to sidestep certifying the election until alll irregularities are investigated. Even if their are none, not one irregularity that can be proved, all it takes is one senator to hold up the process and make everyone deal with this.

and really, compadres. Whats the worst that will happen? We'll lose elections? We'll become the minority party in the senate or the house? People. that won't happen. No wait, it already has, hasn't it. SO what have we to9 lose. Credibility? We'll get that back quick enough when the economy collapses, if our understanding of the impact of the bush policies holds true.

do you really think that a simple active commitment to enfranchisement, publicly expressed and actively pursued hurts us?
we are sore losers because we tyhink the votes need to be recounted?

so, i hope some of our leaders step up to the plate now as part of a broad approach to returning democracy to its rightful place. either that, or i'd like some clear indication that 2006 won't be the fourth election when the dems have played by one set of rule and the pugs have played by another, and we find reasons not to address what is happening and justify to ourselves that it is all part of a grander plan to move this elephant out of the living room.

just the new york in me, i guess.

rant over. sorry for the harangue. blast away. i'm takin a nap. i'll check in later.

whalerider55

[Darknyte7]

22. Kerry is playing this beautifully...

The last thing any of us need right now is James Baker III, et al. running around screaming about John Kerry trying to litigate the result he wants. Hopefully we'll have to deal with the Rupub noise machine soon enough. No need to rehash all that was said above, but I'm glad to see that some other people see what's going on here. Remain faithfully good people...

[LisaL]

25. Denial isn't just the river in Egypt?

Cause I see a lot of it going on in here. Kerry is playing it?
How is he playing it?
What would he be waiting for?
Cause I think that the only thing that is going to happen is another 4 years of Bush.
:eyes:

[Darknyte7]

70. :) He's playing it smart...

He's not given the Repub's any real reason to crank up their noise machine. It was awful in 2000 and sadly Al Gore hasn't yet recovered from the political mauling he endured. I guarantee it would have been worse this time. There are a lot of moving parts here and a lot of things happening that you don't and shouldn't know about right now.

Oh, and the river in Egypt that I believe you're referring to is called "The Nile" ;)

[Imajika]

24. Kerry's strategy is to focus..

..on his job in the Senate and weigh whether he wants to take a more vocal, prominant role in the Democratic Party.

That's it, that's all, there is nothing else.

There is no voter fraud strategy. None.

"that Mr. Kerry's rapid concession has left him in a pretty position in two ways."

Senator Kerry's rapid concession took the air out of any serious challenge to Bush's win (not that there was going to be one anyway). That is just the way it is. There is not enough votes in Ohio or anywhere else where Bush has unofficially won to give Kerry enough electoral votes to be inaugurated President in January.

Senator Kerry's campaign team crunched the numbers, and knew they wouldn't win. Look at the provisional ballots as just one example. There were numbers tossed around here on DU an elsewhere that claimed Kerry would get some ridiculously high percentage of those votes - enough to close the gap to the point where the undervote/overvote's would be in play. That simply did not even come close to happening. At this point, if ever single undervote/overvote went to Kerry (some 93,000), he still wouldn't win. Kerry's campaign team knew this, even when dreamers here and elsewhere didn't grasp it. The Senator did what every other losing Presidential candidate has done when they knew they didn't get enough votes to win - and that is to concede gracefully.

"and we have the Washington recount supported by Mr. Kerry with his leftover funds"

This has nothing to do with the Presidential election. Kerry won Washington State and the Republican candidate Rossi was competative for Governor of that state (though I suspect after the final recount Gregoire may well pull it out). First, Kerry would have been deralict had he not directed some of his available funds to Washington State - that he pony'd up is no shock. Second, in Washington State you have an example of fairly significant ticket splitting - that is people whom voted for Kerry by a reasonably large majority for President, yet a large number still voted for the Republican Rossi for Governor. Something by the way, that many here on DU seem to think is stunning and mysterious when in other states voters have cast ballots for Bush yet voted for Democrats downticket. This is not something new, it's called ticket splitting and it happens all the time. Think Reagan in the 80's winning massive landslides all the while the Democrats still held solid majorities in the House of Representatives.

"we have lots of people across the country waving their flags in the air, and saying: 'Just hold on a minute here!'"

There are so few people waving flags and saying such things that almost nobody, save folks like Keith Olberman, are even giving the story serious coverage. How many people turned out for Jesse Jackson's rally last week - maybe 500? Another reason the media is not interested, is because they know at the end of the day there are NOT enough votes to flip the unoffical results and make Kerry President. There is simply no chance of that happening. Washington State, with 42 votes separating the candidates, is an example of an election where a recount matters. Florida 2000, with originally just over 1000 votes between Bush and Gore, is an example of a state where a recount matters. Ohio, where the spread is 118,000 votes in Bush's favor is an example of a state where a recount is useful only to force the state and local governments to improve their voting system for future elections - there are just not enough votes for Kerry to surpass Bush's lead and win.

Sorry, but this is really just an issue amongst activists - not the main body of Americans. A scarce few are discussing this over the water cooler.

The false hope and delusion I see is completely unheathy. At some point, facts need to be faced and accepted. I think these recounts are worthwile, but not because I have some misguided notion that Kerry will win (even the Senator recongized defeat) - the reason recounts and a critical eye on our voting system is valuable is that going forward we might streamline and improve the US election process. Was there some cheating in election 2004? I am sure of it, because there has been some level of this in every American election cycle we have ever had - by both Democrats and Republicans. But, is there some massive, organized vote fraud conspiracy organized by Bush and the GOP to deliver elections to the Republicans? There is just not a shred of evidence to even remotely demonstrate such a thing.

Imajika

[LisaL]

27. While I agree that nothing is going to happen to flip this

election, I completely disagree on the FRAUD issue. There are just too many strange things going on to say that this election was fair and squire. If you were running for office, would you trust your opponent to count all the votes? Cause that what is happening here. Republicans are in charge of those hideous voting machines.

[cilla4progress]

33. Skeptical

I have been skeptical - though hopeful - all along about what you posit in this post. Why wouldn't - and shouldn't - Kerry have reacted as Gore did in 2000 and take it to the mat (though not far enough, in my view. Tough to go higher than the Supremes though!).

However, reading your post, for the first time I do see a possible rational explanation for his passivity: it would be most strategic for Kerry to let the recounts be a movement from the people, not from him. For obvious reasons. It's a wonderful dream anyway, isn't it, that JJ's current activities are part of an orchestrated looming movement for enfranchisement?

In any case, I think the next milestone will be Ohio's certification (on the 13th?). That would seem to be a trigger of some sort for a major litigation for a recount. If nothing happens then, I'm turning 180 to what I can do on all other fronts to bring a progressive agenda forward.

Thanks for your insights, anyway!

[myschkin]

50. come back to reality

<But, is there some massive, organized vote fraud conspiracy organized by Bush and the GOP to deliver elections to the Republicans? There is just not a shred of evidence to even remotely demonstrate such a thing.>

Are you living on the moon? The Exit Polls are alright (like in Ukraine), no glitches in favour to Bush all over the country, no statistical anomalies in NC, FL a.s.l.... No, no suspicion for fraud at all!

[noclonyofthechimp]

26. nice post!

[seito]

31. Thanks planetc

Welcome to DU!!!

I appreciate your analysis. By the way, I agree with you. Take heed. Your stance may subject you to ridicule, but stand firm. There are many here that agree with you and believe in John Kerry.

I just started reading "Tour of Duty" and just the first chapter brought tears to my eyes again. John Kerry has the best interest of our nation at heart, and he is using THE ONLY TACTIC that will provide any hope for our cause.

In my opinion, had Senator Kerry contested the election on Nov 3rd, it still would have taken a month for Ohio to certify the vote. The recount, if it even came to pass, would no longer be about finding truth it would have turned into a vicious flame war depicting all Democrats of being sore losers and trying to steal an election. With Bush still over 117,00 votes ahead in Ohio, our cause would lose all credibility with at least 70% of Americans.

Now, the recount is about verifying truth. It is being sponsored by small third party candidates and the American people. Who can argue that it is not in the nations interest to know truth. The court challenges and Congressional investigations are about seeking justice for disenfranchised voters and uncovering fraudulent activity.

The truth will come out. It may not change the outcome of this election. John Kerry has taken the steps necessary to show clearly that he supports what we our doing. He is standing up for the "little guy" and demanding that the people's request for a recount should be full and complete. For him to take a larger, more public role at this point would be counterproductive.

[AntiFascist]

100. I agree with this...

and I'm starting to see where Gore may have even made a mistake by getting too closely involved last time. We don't need to draw all kinds of negative attention to the Democratic Party and to Kerry, especially when most of the Media is clearly on the other side. It doesn't take a massive social movement to uncover significant evidence of fraud, and once we have the evidence I can almost guarantee that the rest of the World will not let our own media ignore the issue at that point.

[cilla4progress]

34. Skeptical (moved to reply to 0)

I have been skeptical - though hopeful - all along about what you posit in this post. Why wouldn't - and shouldn't - Kerry have reacted as Gore did in 2000 and take it to the mat (though not far enough, in my view. Tough to go higher than the Supremes though!).

However, reading your post, for the first time I do see a possible rational explanation for his passivity: it would be most strategic for Kerry to let the recounts be a movement from the people, not from him. For obvious reasons. It's a wonderful dream anyway, isn't it, that JJ's current activities are part of an orchestrated looming movement for enfranchisement?

In any case, I think the next milestone will be Ohio's certification (on the 13th?). That would seem to be a trigger of some sort for a major litigation for a recount. If nothing happens then, I'm turning 180 to what I can do on all other fronts to bring a progressive agenda forward.

Thanks for your insights, anyway!

[LisaL]

35. The OH's recount will take place, but it will be after 13th.

Green Party will get it's recount, but it will be too late to change the results even if something major is uncovered and results flip.

[SnoopDog]

41. That’s the ‘Constitutional crisis’ the judge in Ohio was referring to.

In my opinion, how can the legal entity and function of a recount not count past the 13th? I would think that a recount must absolutely count – even if it is after Dec 13th. If not, then exactly what is the purpose of a recount if it does not matter?

I have a feeling that, indeed, the recount will go past Dec 13 (ala Blackwell) and the courts will have to step in. They will have to set precedence that ‘a recount must be completed before the acceptance of and electoral votes’.

Keep the faith – always.

[bunny planet]

61. January 6th is the final date to focus on .

I believe there is also a plan in the works to contest the election at that point when the sealed envelope with the electors votes is opened with Darth Cheney presiding (remember the Congressional Black Caucus asking for a Senator to sign on in F/911). Plan B, if the recount doesn't happen or happen in time.

My biggest suspicion that something is happening, haven't heard a peep from Gore!!! Veeeery interesting!

[suziedemocrat]

96. If fraud is proven, and it would change Ohio,

I don't see how the country would stand for an inauguration of Bush. I can't see that happening.

[texpatriot2004]

39. I think you are on to something. I have believed this was a

smart move all along. That "sore loser" press thing in 2000 was horrible. Keeping a low profile and keeping this whole recount thing under the radar as much as possible benefits us. Plus, we have been able to gather a tremendous amount of testimony, statistical studies, data regarding incidents without being attacked and without the evil eye upon us. I think that you are definitely on to something.

[Shalom]

47. Is It Simple Strategy, Fear, or Realpolitik ?

Simple Strategy: Makes sense politically, since America is still a democratic country

Fear & Ambition: I don't believe this of Kerry, he has shown both physical and political courage in his life

Realpolitik (spelling ?)- To distinguish from "simple strategy": Since America to all intents and purposes is no longer a democratic country (witness the craven betrayl of the press who previously sniffed at, ogled at, and fantasized over a semen stain). As such, the fascists in power will DO ANYTHING to stay in power. If we fight them, they will turn off the internet, stage a phony 9/11, declare martial law, and have billboards all over the country with the filthy fucking face of George Walker Bushiter smirking upon us for the remainder of the 1,000 Year Reich of the flesh-eating virus that is the Bushitler dynasty.

CHOOSE ONE AND ONLY OPTION, AMERICA.....

P.S.:
Nice Quote:

"...and together we are going to change history." President John Kerry

[whalerider55]

80. shalom

passionate, but i gotta say i'm not at all comfortable with the Nazi fascism references...

what we are seeing in my opinion has almost nothing to do with political idealogy, and everything to do with the concenration of power and money. although the natural tendency of money is to try to create policies favorable to the the accretion and continued concentration of money, if a liberal idealogy would have done it, the Bush's would've been liberals. This is about what the founding fathers warned us about; money using whatever it takes to achieve its goals- the fundies arer a pawn in this, although they are getting some of their own agenda met, fer sure. This is about divisions; as long as we are told to throw rocks at each other, no one can pay attention to those men the curtain hijacking democracy and turning into their own mint printing press.

Fascistic idealogies, if my understanding of history serves, tend not to last a 1000 years, because once they play the nationalism card, they eventually run out of enemies within the state to blame, and then have to move beyond their own borders to find new enemies.

Kinda like what shrub has done, but not exactly.

there's lots of reasons to hate him, believe me. but i really believe he's a pawn in this as well. as hateful and venal a man as i believe him to be, he's just the puppet, not the puppeteer.

we can do this, folks. but we do need to understand who/what the enemy is.

whalerider55

[txindy]

51. I believe you've nailed it

There is an awful lot going that we cannot - and should not - see.

Ignore the naysayers and the cynics. You won't change their minds. They were set long ago.

Keep the faith!

[StephanieMarie]

54. I hope they print your letter. They did print mine. Here it is:

I’m writing to express my grave concern over the sanctity of our voting system in Columbia County. I was not at all happy with the touch screen voting machine that I used in my precinct at Riverside Middle School on November 2. The fact that no paper record of my vote was made seems very wrong. Suppose there was a voltage surge, or the hard drive crashed? My vote, my voice, gone forever. I am a former computer programmer for General Dynamics. I wrote software for the Atlas Rocket, the Space Shuttle, and numerous cruise missiles, and I do not trust a computer with my vote unless there is also a paper trail.



Stalin said, “Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.” Until we have a transparent, verifiable, auditable, re-countable voting system, we do not have a true democracy. People cannot just trust on blind faith those assigned to count their votes unless there is a way to verify that count.



We the People need to demand a safer, more secure voting system in our country. This 2004 election, which the media tells us went so smoothly, was anything but. Recounts are on-going in New Hampshire, Ohio, and North Carolina. Legal battles are on-going in New Mexico, Nevada, Indiana, and San Diego. Corporations must be ready at any time to submit to an external audit. Individual tax payers may be asked at any time to subject themselves to an IRS audit. It only makes sense that our federal elections be at least as transparent and verifiable.



It is my strongest hope that the next time I cast a vote in Columbia County, I will have the assurance of a paper trail to know that my vote is accurately recorded and counted.

[intheflow]

72. Great letter, StephanieMarie.

Do you have a link to the paper it was printed in?

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[planetc]

84. Splendid letter, StephanieMarie! Keep on writing! nt

[faithnotgreed]

102. thats a fantastic letter - perhaps you could add washington

state to your list of ongoing problems/recounts? or perhaps you were only speaking of the presidential election. in that case please disregard my suggestion as that recount i believe is only for governor (im so glad thats happening!)

thanks again for that outstanding succinct letter.

[Gyre]

57. Time will tell

I'd love to believe this, but as a pragmatic person I have to rely on the evidence. So far, the evidence is all over the map.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to keep my cannabalistic tendencies at bay.

Gyre

[googly]

67. Kerry is smarter, more educated, has held higher positions than anyone on

DU. He has a law degree from ivy league college, has been a prosecutor, lt-governor, and senator for 20 years. No one on DU comes even close.
So, at the risk of bursting your bubble let me state that Kerry knows
better than anyone here what the situation was on Nov 3rd. He must have
selected the only viable option he had left, concession. I will defer to
him and his judgement, over playing monday morning quarterback, or,
second guessing him.

ps: corrected 2 typos.

[intheflow]

73. I've been thinking this from the second he gave the concession speech.

It's what I've been hoping, at any rate. Nice post. Welcome to DU, planetc! :hi:

[JD Lau]

75. I have thought this as well. Especially in reference to what

I heard the swift boat vets - his crew members - state about how he introduced himself to them = that they could make it just fine without him, but he needed their help to get the job done.

Eloriel's comments notwithstanding... I'm with you on this one!

What have we got to lose!

JD

[planetc]

82. And another man who served with him reported

that Mr. Kerry "was quiet, but you knew who was in charge." I hadn't seen the quote you reference--thanks for it.

[planetc]

90. not a reply to myself, but to everybody

I won't have time to reply to all the people I'd like to. So this is a blanket response--

Thanks, I will check out Mike Malloy's board.

And I am not going to be satisfied with fixing the effing election system in 4 years, or 8 years, or 12 years. I am not going to be satisfied with anything but seeing Mr. Kerry sworn in on January 20.

This country can't take another 4 years of this idiocy. And the people who think so ARE NOT A MINORITY. We are the effing MAJORITY.

The country can't take another 4 years of this, of turning almost half the country into true believers in a liar, of dismantling our regulatory system and our judicial corps and our sweet innocent faith in voting. The planet can't take another 4 years of burning oil we're running out of.

I want a fair election, and I WANT IT THIS YEAR, or early in January at the latest. This is our effing country, and if somebody like me is ready to take to the streets, then we do not have 4 years to spare. We need to fix this in the time we have before the next president is inaugurated, because this time, we know who that president is. In 2000, I thought we were consenting to the inauguration because we're a very polite people.

In 2004, the polite worm is going to turn.

[politicasista]

92. He needs to stop listening to his sorry advisors

And trust his own instincts. He shouldn't have conceded soon. Be like Gore and stand on the sidelines.

[bunny planet]

94. Tell it planetc!!!!!!!!!!!! I so hear you.

[Bread and Circus]

98. Kerry Schmerry. Phooey on him. A leader is present. He's not.

[AntiFascist]

99. Welcome planetc, and I agree with you totally....

For those of us who know something about the types of systems used in much of the tabulation, the information I've seen uncovered has raised way too many red flags and as concerned citizens we have every right to contest and investigate what went on in the voting and tabulation. This really has little to do with Bush or Kerry getting involved at this point, and it has everything to do with conducting fair elections. If we cannot be assured of fairness then why even vote in the future? What kind of example are we setting for nations like, oh say, Iraq?

From what I've seen from the Bush camp, they make this out to look like some sort of football game where, by hook or by crook, their side won so we're going to have to live with it and get over it, and besides this is a time of war and we really shouldn't be replacing the Commander in Chief....or should we?

[politicasista]

114. I hate to say this but

I am sorry to sound like a sour grape, but Jesse is right, Kerry conceded way too soon. I know they would Gore him, but he should have kept his promise to have out backs. Most of the peeps here are angry with him, especially African-Americans in the red states, who supported him. It feels like a slap in the face to us (AA) who supported him, but he didn't support us. Then, he just going to give up on us after many waited in long lines, rain or shine? Why choose a southerner (Edwards) and write off the South? That doesn't make sense. We should re-elect Clinton again

[shraby]

115. Remember this about Kerry.....

how many people knew he was choosing Edwards for a running mate before the day he said he'd announce it? Even the newspaper that printed the story the night before got it wrong.
I wouldn't count Kerry out on the voter fraud. Just because you don't hear anything from anyone doesn't mean "nothing is happening".

Another thing to think about. Why did Conyers schedule the hearing for Blackwell for the 8th of December, which is after Blackwell certifies the Ohio votes? Is it to allow Blackwell to commit himself to a fraudulent count?

[AntiFascist]

117. The disenfranchisement of AA should be an enormous issue...

apart from the whole issue of fixing the tabulated votes. This was the first thing that set me totally against the Bush administration when I first heard about the tactics used in Florida in 2000. I often wonder why the NAACP gave up so easily on this, was there some sort of deal struck?

[robbedvoter]

116. here's a similar strategy: I'll buy tickets to the circus, but won't go in

to spite the circus owner." Old joke.
Clever, huh?

[Truman01]

118. Kerry strategy, unpopular, but probably right.

As much as I understand why people on this board and in the Party wanted Kerry to fight, I understand why he did what he did and reluctantly support it. Planetc, for a non-politico, your analysis is pretty right on. Gore had a beef, 350 -+ votes in a large state, and they still made him look so bad that he can't really run again.

Kerry looked at the results here and had these thought (my guesses): 1. If they stole it, they did a damn good job. 2. A conspiracy that big, WILL come out on it's own eventually, but no way will it come out quickly enough to change the election. 3. With a 3.5 million person apparent loss I will look like a fool to challenge the election. 5. With 130,000 in Ohio, it is unlikely that I will succeed in this cycle.

Kerry, I'm sure, is counting on us. People like us all across the Country who are not going to let this go. If it is there like we think, it will come out with devastating consequences for the Repukes. If it isn't, Kerry doesn't suffer. Right now he is a political force when we have very little political force. I'm sure he is doing what he can in the background.

Let this thing play out. Do what you can. Don't get dejected if the results are too slow for you. This is a long marathon, not a sprint. They probably won this round, probably cheated to do it. Let's make good long term decisions and we will win.

TC