See Clint Curtis' prototype for Feeney here (NOT BradBlog):

[tjdee]

http://www.justaflyonthewall.com/votefraud.html

on edit: The affadavit says he worked for "YANG Enterprises/YEI". This site says he worked for "Wong Enterprises". Danger Will Robinson??? on edit again: Apparently Madsen said "Wong Enterprises" was a pseudonym.


Just found out about all this right now, am unsure whether I think it's legit--BUT, you can click on the link above, which leads you to Clint Curtis' site...read a bit, and then he links you to a reproduction of the prototype he says he developed.

I'm posting this to see if some smarter DUers can take a look at the program, see if it's legit, etc. As I said, I'm unconvinced at the moment(I'd like to be wrong!).

[bj2110]

1. So, the whistleblowing programmer has a website?... Hmmm...

I'm getting a little concerned. I hope Madsen has looked into this guy...

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. You'd be suspicious about a computer programmer who has a

website?

[bj2110]

7. Point taken, just seems a little convenient that this info...

is and has been public domain on the internet. But, I see your point, it's not all that unusual for a programmer to have a website, huh?

The one personal exposure to a whistleblower that I have had didn't leave me with positive impressions about the type of person who makes himself public in grand, exposed manner. I was a student in a class in Louisville, KY taught by Jeffrey Wigand during the time of his whistleblowing (think Big Tobacco, 60 Minutes, The Insider movie). What he did was incredible, we should all be grateful. However, personal experience in being around him day in and day out showed me what type of person he was. I honestly believe he did it for the recognition (quite contrary to the movie and public opinion) and not for the morality. He kind of fed off of the attention and it showed. He has a website now, full of self glorifying facts. Of course, we should all be glad he came forward, just as I hope I will be glad that Curtis has come forward. I'm just a little hesitant to believe he doesn't have alterior motives.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. I know how frightening activism can be.

I also know how expensive it can be when you go it alone. I don't have a problem with someone who self-glorifies his or her crusade. As long as there are results.

[Pepper32]

16. The more public the less deadly the situation for him, we are not dealing

...with the Sesame Street gang here.

[Pepper32]

15. I know, that's weird to be concerned over that..lol

After all he is a programmer, why wouldn't he have a website?

[Monkie]

8. site seems to check out

i think that might be how it broke..
this site was posted last thursday at www.whatreallyhappened.com
i did some basic checking of the site and he seems to be real
i found references to him in relation to whistleblowing in the media from 2002
and his site is registered in his own name..
he has another site all his contact info is there

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=6414#6875

by the looks of things he started whistleblowing a while back
and there was another whistleblower in that case (2002) from the florida department of transport..
the website seems to me to be largely a sign of his frustration?

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Seems to me like the WONG thing is a play on the owners name

As an act of disgust towards her, Ms. WONG.

Just a thought.




http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[rockedthevoteinMA]

4. Jamboi (who has been in touch w/Wayne Madsen)

Said it was a psuedonym, in anthoer thread.

[tjdee]

6. Oh, thanks--was this site posted in the other thread too?

I didn't catch it, but if this is a dupe, sorry!

[tjdee]

5. Noticed that...but why make that mistake?

I did notice the Wong/Wong thing, but I wondered why he'd take the time to do that if he's trying to be credible. Why not just say Yang?

Raised a bit of a red flag for me, but maybe it's nothing...but thanks for the comment. As I said, I'd love this to be on the level.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

10. here tjdee

55. Yang Enterprises is no hoax. Wong was an alias to protect the whistleblower.

53. Its Yang. Wong was a pseudonym. n/t

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=116796#117246

[tjdee]

25. Oh, thank you--seems I did miss the earlier discussion on this site.

Shucks!

[mostly_lurking]

9. This doesn't match the description in the affidavit

This is an altogether different (and very juvenile) program. And there is no way I am going to download and run an executable on my PC (can you say "virus")?

The affidavit talks about "invisible buttons" to activate the fraud features... this program takes a predefined algorithm and attempts to jiggle the vote on the fly. It's very juvenile and could be built by any 10th grader during study hall.

I'm sorry -- I still don't by this stuff.

On Edit: This could be the same program discussed in the affidavit (I see a mention of buttons in the upper left, etc., to "turn it on"). But I still believe this is the work of a teenager in 30 to 40 minutes. Not a professional job (and certainly not worth being paid to build).

[mostly_lurking]

12. Oh, and the source code "isn't there"

The ZIP file that supposed to hold the VB source contains a small ACCESS database and form definition files. No source code.

[teleharmonium]

21. re: source code

I don't have VB on my home PC here to check for certain, but I can see that there is also a VB project file, there could be some code there. Also there could be VBA code modules in the access database.

FWIW it is pretty common in my experience for a programmer to do a quick and dirty demo that makes use of Access and just a form or two. I've seen surprisingly many finished products that fit that description too.

This demo doesn't necessarily have to be the actual means that were used; presumably something more subtle and polished, or multiple variants designed to replace more than one host voting machine could have been created on these principles; the affadavit could still lead us down the right path if his claims hold up to serious scrutiny.

I'm trying to limit my comments to the fairly safe and obvious since false hope abounds at every turn, sucking energy from our legitimate complaints.

[mostly_lurking]

36. No, source is required (and missing) here n/t

[Boredtodeath]

14. From Bartcop: Hidden Buttons are part of Diebold system

From page 19 of the Diebold Pollworker's Training Manual (http://www.countthevote.org/dbd_docs/pwtraining.pdf)

CANCELING A VOTER’S BALLOT
There may be times when it is necessary to cancel a voter’s ballot. This is most commonly done when a voter has been issued a voter card with the wrong ballot style encoded on it.
To cancel a voter’s ballot, take the following steps.
1. Ask the voter to advance to the summary page.
2. Touch the screen just below the word “Precinct” in the upper left corner.
3. The “Cancel Ballot” button will then appear on the bottom of the screen.
4. Touch the “Cancel Ballot” button.
5. The voter’s card will be ejected and the following message will appear on
the screen.

The voter should then return their voter card to the poll worker to have it encoded correctly.

When a ballot is canceled, the returned voter card will still contain ballot style information. The information was not erased because “Cast Ballot” was not touched.

http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=2&topic_id=341907&mesg_id=341907&page=
(there's an image in the original bartcop post)

[rawstory]

22. PSEUDONYMS

That's all we know. He was, at the time, worried about a lawsuit. Now, I guess he isn't.

As to the source code, etc. we're trying to get in touch with programmers if they thing they can debunk it, etc; I want the other side of this story, even if it is just being cautious, but I am not a programmer.

Feel free to PM me if you are willing to be quoted in a story and want to talk to the specific technical details.

[pointsoflight]

17. I believe he was given one day to write it.

By Curtis' own claims, it was not intended to be a "professional" job that would actually be implemented. It's only purpose was to show how the interface of such a program could be set up.

[VTGold]

13. I wanna believe - but why would he ....

...have an anonymous web statement when the domain can be traced directly to him. What kind of programmer wouldn't know that?

I hope its all true and at the very least it takes down little Jeb - but I'm so worried this is really purulent Karl with a Dan Rather-like setup.

[Pepper32]

18. He was protecting himself from being sued, he was not protecting his

....identity

From what I have read, it appears Clint was waiting on someone to actually pay attention to what he was saying and until he could get someone to take him serious, he protected himself from being sued by Yang Enterprises. Makes perfect sense.

And the reason he did not protect his identity, very well could be that he was afraid someone would try to kill him eventually. He did say someone poisoned his dog according to Madsen. So why wouldn't he want to get the truth out there instead of being silent and possibly ending up dead, with everything he knew going to the grave with him?

After all, look at what happened to his friend Lemme.

[DubyaSux]

19. Wow...

...aside from needing to interface with 3 different evoting systems, needing many election officials on the inside activating it, or getting it onto a system that doesn't have a keyboard, mouse, or disk drive, I'd say it was a perfect plan.

[Boredtodeath]

20. Come on, DubyaSux...you can do better

Talk about strawmen:

...aside from needing to interface with 3 different evoting systems,

All of which are TOUCHSCREEN systems which is all that is needed to invoke a TOUCHSCREEN hidden button

needing many election officials on the inside activating it,

Or getting election official to use the system as part of their training AND system shutdown at the end of the day (see my post above about hidden buttons being PART of the existing systems)

or getting it onto a system that doesn't have a keyboard,

Did you read the affidavit? No keyboard necessary.

mouse,

Did you read the affidavit? No mouse necessary.

or disk drive,

Are you trying to say that the storage media (PCMCIA cards) are not the equivalent to a disk drive? Why is it then that the source code refers to "Drive C:" (PCMCIA card) and "Drive D:" (flash memory)?

I'd say it was a perfect plan.

I'd say you were right once we eliminate your strawmen arguments.

For someone who alleges he knows the Diebold system, this was a real cheap shot at diversion. Didn't work.

[DubyaSux]

24. Ok...I can do better...

"All of which are TOUCHSCREEN systems which is all that is needed to invoke a TOUCHSCREEN hidden button"

All three use diffrerent databases. His software would have to work with all three on three different configurations and still be undetectable. And note, you can't just change numbers. It's a double-entry system.

"Or getting election official to use the system as part of their training AND system shutdown at the end of the day (see my post above about hidden buttons being PART of the existing systems)"

So, assuming most precints only log several thousand voters, this software would have to be in many, many precincts to make a diffference. So, it would take many co-consipiritors to implement this "hack". Which leads to...

How do you load the software on the system to replace the voting software that doesn't have a keyboard, mouse, or disk drive? Do you think the democratic election officials are so inept that they would allow someone with a bunch of computer hardware into a "booth" to do what they want with the system?

These are the ridiculous arguments which got Bev Harris no responses from her demos. She'd show how easy it was to "hack the votes" by letting a monkey delete a log file. But then she got asked how anyone would let a monkey in alone with a system. She can't answer it. So, if everything you said was possible (it's not), how would anybody let you do it?

I'll take my straw man argument (whatever the hell that is) over "aliens from the Vega sector hacked our votes" argument anyday. Because this subject is far less feasable than aliens hacking the system.

[Boredtodeath]

30. No, you didn't....let's try again

All three use diffrerent databases. His software would have to work with all three on three different configurations and still be undetectable. And note, you can't just change numbers. It's a double-entry system.

No, it's not double entry. The only thing set in that redundant database is the dirty flag. And if what you say is true - you know the Diebold system - then you know this. Don't try to use Bev Harris hyperbole in one sentence and then diss it in the next. Let's play fair and have an intelligent discussion, ok?

So, assuming most precints only log several thousand voters, this software would have to be in many, many precincts to make a diffference. So, it would take many co-consipiritors to implement this "hack". Which leads to...

How do you load the software on the system to replace the voting software that doesn't have a keyboard, mouse, or disk drive?

Ummm, DS, come on now.....you know all this software is upgradeable by remote access. Seriously, some states require the voting machine company to do parallel monitoring during an election. You also know that the version of the software is tested for date comparisons and loaded into memory if the copy on the PCMCIA card is newer than the one resident on the machine. Turn on a DRE and an upgrade is automated if the dates don't match. Upgrading any system is simple and, as a programmer, you know that. In addition, as a simple MSWindows user, you know it as well. Every MSWindows patch is automated.

Do you think the democratic election officials are so inept that they would allow someone with a bunch of computer hardware into a "booth" to do what they want with the system?

Again, you know better; assuming you really do know the Diebold system. Technicians are in and out of polling places all day long during an election. In some states, Diebold technicians are paid to run the election itself; the county doesn't even have trained employees who know how to turn the system on.

<snip Bev Harris BS>But then she got asked how anyone would let a monkey in alone with a system. She can't answer it. So, if everything you said was possible (it's not), how would anybody let you do it?

I just answered it. There are multiple ways and occasions for updates, technical support and upgrades to all these election systems.

Now, I have a question for you. Name me ONE county, ONE location who has managed to hold an election without a manufacterer's technican holding their hands. The voting machine manufactuers have created a bond to these counties as add-on billing. That's the way any computer company does business - they make themselves invaluable and irreplaceable. And if you work for one of them, as you allege, you know that only too well.

I'll take my straw man argument (whatever the hell that is) over "aliens from the Vega sector hacked our votes" argument anyday. Because this subject is far less feasable than aliens hacking the system.

Can we play nice and try to have an intelligent discussion? Seriously, it's past time that some of the technicians dealt with these allegations in an Q&A and I've given you the respect I am asking for. Convince me by answering my questions and not avoiding the difficult issues like you did in this post. Admit when you are wrong and let's try to hammer it out. I don't disbelieve that you are a voting machine employee who believes what you say and believes in your company. I respect that. Give us at DU the respect of non-snarky answers to our questions, k?

[DubyaSux]

31. Huh?

Me? A voting machine employee? Who said anything about that?

I saw one small reference you made and ignored it as a typo, but where in the HELL did I ever say I worked for any of the evoting companies?

It's no wonder you guys beleive all this crap because you can't separate fantasy from reality. I do not work for an evoting company, never have, and more than likely never will as they are outside of my realm of expertise.

Other than that, this is the same rhetoric Avi Rubin repeated before the SAIC stated unequivically that he could never have worked in a real election because it's just not possible. And guess what? They were right!

You can sput off every concievable conspiracy, and I have one to counter it. So, that is an impasse. The difference is, is that your theories are implausible beyond beleif. Could something like you beleive happen in a precinct? Difficult, but maybe possible. But over a great area? No-way and no-how. And why is that? Because everybody is fundamentally greedy and there is no way to keep something this big secret.

The disks are certifed and sealed. They were certifed by both democrat and republican election officials. Assuming one is evil, it is countered by someone who is not. And this is why our system that although imperfect, works. Without these controls we don't have a democracy no matter what type of voting we use.

So, your condescending crackpot theories in the guise of educated debate just doesn't impress me. Want to impress me? Give me one shred of irrefutable evidence...just one.

[Boredtodeath]

32. You have said so

In your nasty threads with Bev Harris. You at least inferred that you were a "Democrat" working for a voting machine company. If you want, I'll be happy to find those comments for you.

Now, again, you attempt to get snarky and ugly in diversion, but straight up, answer some of these questions.

The disks are certified and sealed???? That's laughable, DS, and you know it.

Your "certified and sealed" disks aren't even checked for their assigned serial numbers or quantity as attested to by pollwatchers as the disks come into the central counting location.

As for Avi Rubin and SAIC, you really need to read through the RABA report - they proved beyond a doubt that Rubin's allegations were all true - AFTER Diebold said they had repaired all the security breaches.

Now I know you'd rather be discussing this in "Bev Harris style" because that played into your agenda. But I don't play that way - I've given you respect and some questions. All of which you have failed to answer.

Step up to the plate or go on home because everything you've said is bunk. You've failed at your mission to divert to personal accusations and Bev Harris' departure has hurt your agenda here.

As for proof of anything, I asked you to produce just ONE county, ONE city, ONE state where an election has been conducted without the handholding of manufacturer technicians. You first.

Your turn.

[DubyaSux]

35. Find 'em....

"In your nasty threads with Bev Harris. You at least inferred that you were a "Democrat" working for a voting machine company. If you want, I'll be happy to find those comments for you."

ok...I'll wait...

You got the democrat part correct. Find the rest. Find where I said I worked for an evoting company and for that matter, the nasty threads.

And while you're at it, name me one county, city, or state where the election hasn't been conducted by election officials of both parties. After all, if you're going to use the "all the technicians are felonious criminals" tactic, let's point out the people who let them get away with it.

As far as Rubin's report, please....

(p. 16):
“Physical access to the voting results may not even be necessary to acquire the voting records, if they are transmitted across the Internet.”

He had no clue and this is just an example.

I find it interesting that just like Bev Harris, you question my party loyalty when I question your theories. As if they are mutually exclusive. Not one of your theories has ever been proven, but you leave it up to me to prove the negative.

All your ideas sound good to non-technical people, but in reality, it's impossible. Technically possible, but unless you can get thousands of people not to talk and everything goes perfectly without mistake, impossible.

So tell me, how much money have you sucked from the hard-working people here at DU? How much have you fed the monster to get people to beleive in something that simply doesn't exist. I might question the inplausible so people quit sending you their hard-earned money, but at least I do it for free.

[Boredtodeath]

38. LOL, I take no money from DUers or anyone else

Jeez, you're getting laughable, DS.

I didn't question anything but your past comments and your comments of today. Party loyalty? Why because I said you said you were a Democrat? I wasn't questioning that. In fact, I said in the post above that I respected that. How you transfer that to questioning your party loyalty is beyond me.

And, I love your imaginative quoting here - "all the technicians are felonious criminals" - I never said any such thing.

BTW, just to set the record straight.....I don't take donations from anyone, nor do I take credit cards. :evilgrin:

[Boredtodeath]

39. Believe you or a Probate Judge?

Spoke with Judge Martin Gillette. In 2002 he was told that Diebold was contractually obligated to run the Nov election. Since that time, Camden County's in-house technician has gradually taken over more of the responsibility. Interestingly, as Gillette described it, Diebold "allowed him" (the tech) to be more hands on as he increased in proficiency. Gillette is very proud of his tech, and the fact that Camden County is now largely an in-house operation. In fact, Gillette came very close to implying that there was something illegitimate about Diebold having too much involvement in running the elections, though he also said, "of course anything they say they need to do, we let them do it."

[rawstory]

23. CALLING ALL PROGRAMMERS!

Believe or disbelieve this story and you think you have the technical knowledge to back it up, and are willing to go on the record by name?

Please PM me. I'm not a programmer, just a reporter -- we don't claim this guy is telling the truth, the other side won't talk, the usual problems.

But if you feel you can debunk this, or you can confirm some of the things he's saying, fire me a PM and we'll go from there. I want to do a "programmers respond" piece.

[skids]

26. Why don't you "Ask Slashdot"? n/t

[nmoliver]

29. from a programmer

I think it would be very difficult for somebody to write the information that Clint has written without insider knowledge. If his story were false, it could be blown apart in two seconds. He says he knew all of the players in the two companies where he claimed to have worked. That can be proved or disproved very quickly.

I just wanted to say, as a programmer with 24 years' experience, that writing a touch-screen software program to count up the votes for a small set of candidates would take me a few days. That includes design, creating the front end, creating the database, writing the code, and testing the program. It's a cakewalk. Very very easy. No way in the world would I come up with any of "glitches" that have been reported - backward counting, extra votes moved from one column to another, and so forth. It is not imaginable to me that programmers of even moderate competence would have blundered their way into this range of computer errors by accident. It just would not happen. Besides, companies like that have QA teams to test the software and make sure that it works accurately. Then, any competent management would insist on beta testing (testing in a live environment).

The only way that votes destined for one candidate would end up in another candidate's column, or one candidate would pull in 3000 extra votes but the other candidate does not, would be if the different candidates (columns) were treated differently in the code. Any accurate program would have given each candidate (column) a number and put the votes into their respective columns. It is pathetically easy to test and see if your code does this correctly. Only if columns are treated differently could any of these mistakes have happened. (except for counting backwards - and it is very hard to believe that a company with a minimum level of professionalism would not have accounted for "out of memory" or "out of storage space" issues).

The programmers in Ohio report that they have been unable to find out how these extra columns got padded with votes. Given the simplicity of the algorithm, this, to me, is good circumstantial evidence of fraud and hacking.

- Nina

[gasperc]

37. hand recount the ballots and then re-run them through the machine

they better fucking match, otherwise we'll know that the program was hacked

[Dolphyn]

27. There are some images on the site where the name is blacked out ...

For example:


Apparently he used a fictitious company name in his book,
but now the true identity of the company is coming out.

Seems reasonable to me.

[skids]

28. CHECK YOUR WEBSERVER LOGS

This is o/t, but to get the word out to the more technical folks, if you check your server logs, you may find entries in it like this one (which I got on my pages just by total cooncidence, they were downloading a tech support file nothing election related.) Look at the broswer version string. This is likely something done at least county, if not statewide with all the government purchased copies of MS software.

......... "GET /~bri/hw/dl3xx.html HTTP/1.1" 200 23657 "http://www.google.com/search?q=smart+array+5i+dos+driver&hl=en&lr=&start=40&sa=N" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; Lee County Property Appraiser's Office, Lee County, Florida; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"

...which would be neat info to have, if say you run an election fraud site and someone from Volusia County BoE has been poking around....

[Generic Other]

33. Yang donated $4000 to Feeney campaign

So they have met.

Yang, Li-Woan Yang Enterprises Inc./ceo 2,000 03/23/2004 Merritt Island FL 32952
Yang, Li-Woan Yang Enterprises Inc./ceo 2,000 09/05/2003 Merritt Island FL 32952

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/campaigns/tom_feeney.asp

[jbnow]

34. Yang and Feeney relationship isn't in question is it?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=%22Yang+enterprises%22+%22tom+Feeney%22+&btnG=Search

There is no doubt Feeney had a lobbyist/counsel relationship with Yang Enterprises, many links on these pages are even from MSM.

The rest...we wait and see. Just hoping the truth will come out!

Maybe we can get the Ukranians to come and take over our public buildings until our leaders agree to election methods not so prone to fraud.