We are very close,

[spotbird]

it's easy to tell because of all the false reports spreading like wildfire that are now included in the mix. Everyone knows that's happening to obscure the real fraud. Someone out there just has to find a way to vet the red herrings from the credible claims and put the doubtful ones in some kind of a holding zone awaiting verification. If it doesn't happen soon things will continue to deteriorate. Since I've had very little time to check the blogs lately this problem has become abundantly clear, I haven't any idea what is true, planted, discredited or whatever by checking in once or twice a day.

On an unrelated note, my husband just explained to me that the US election results were trustworthy because the MSM hasn't reported otherwise (thanks for the sympathy). Are there any examples in the MSM that cast doubt on the election results generally? I'm of the opinion that we haven't any idea at all who won, but why would we trust those with the most to gain to count the votes without any verification is simple foolishness. People kill and die for political power, why wouldn't they also lie?

[Liberty Belle]

1. Chicago Tribune and the Boston Globe

both ran front page stories exposing voting fraud.
Chicago Tribune reported 181,000 dead people on voting rolls
Also an Ohio NBC TV affiliate questioned whether Bush really ran the election.

[Yupster]

6. 181,000 on the voter rolls

is not fraud.

If they voted, that's fraud.

[morningglory]

14. My mother died. We haven't called to cancel her registration.

Can I find out if she voted? That is the problem, I would like to find out if I voted. If my vote counted. I would like verification.
Oh, well, living in Florida is grand.

[Patsy Stone]

18. Weather's beautiful...

[Liberty Belle]

20. I don't know. Call the registrar and find out. Then cancel

her, so the Reps can't vote for her next time.

[bj2110]

2. Agreed. We need to all let Madsen do his work....

I do not doubt his motives in what he is doing. But we all need to be wary of what has happened today. A document is made public, there are questions over its validity, and the forum lights up like a christmas tree with all sorts of people saying all sorts of things. Stick to what we all know. The Conyers hearings. The statistics. The exit polls. Arnebeck. Vote machine distribution in Cleveland & Columbus. Rallies. Civil disobedience. Kerry & the DNC poking there heads out.

Please, please, please stay away from focusing on Curtis, or Madsen, or Brad. If there is truth to that story, let them do their work. Don't pressure them to release what they have, don't encourage them to promote themselves. Let them investigate. That's how this thing will break. Do not bicker. Do not attack. Stay calm. We all need to tell ourselves this over and over again. Including me.

We are on a roll here. The snowball is growing faster than it ever has. It's moving quicker than it ever has. Don't start kicking it side to side while it's rolling. It will crumble.

[mary195149]

5. I agree. We have so much more

than we did just a couple of weeks ago. I think our feel of urgency is that we are fighting against the clock. We have one month to show that Kerry won. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks we will have some different numbers in Ohio. If not, it will be so disappointing to see Bush get inaugerated again, but we will still fight and I do believe with all the findings over time, he will be in some big trouble!!

[jamboi]

15. I fully agree. When presenting the case for Votergate, focus on concrete

examples that are well-documented by MSM.

Examples: Voter suppression is a big-time felony. Supression was undeniably present in OH and FL and was widely reported in MSM. We had hours-long lines to wait to vote, not just in the swing states, but all over the country. That caused untold thousands to avoid the lines and not vote. That is inexcusable and very banana-republic like. We had Secretaries of State making arbitrary rules in appearant attempts to disqualify tens of thousands of voters. Tens of thousands! We had tens of thousands of registered voters that didn't recieve their absentee ballots in time to vote. These are undeniable facts, widely reported in the MSM and experienced first hand by people all over the U.S. These are outrageous facts that by themselves ought to have us in the streets like they are in Kiev.

These are civil rights issues. Our civil rights. Not just Blacks, poor, gay, Green, or any subset of our citizenry. This is not a partisan issue. I want my vote counted and I want all citizens' votes counted. I want a fair game where we ALL can play and I want to know who won. I think most people would agree with me if it is put to them in that way. Free and fair elections. How can anyone argue with that? It is what America preaches all over the world in the first, second, and third world. Why would we want anything less for ourselves? Free and fair elections are a fundamental tenet of our American Dream. It is something we can all agree on.

Don't focus on the speculative. The research will continue and we'll find out what really happened, but in the meantime we can start to talk about the undeniable, widely reported election irregularities with our friends and neighbors, in a nonpartisan, "I just want to know how these bad things happened and how we can fix them" kind of approach. Let the deep research stuff motivate you, but don't put it our front. Its not ready for prime time yet. When the deep research is ripe it will blossom. In the meantime there's plenty that everyone already knows about that's messed up with our election system.

[corbett]

27. Snowball Is Growing Faster Than It Ever Has

Well put! We are on a roll here. The snowball is growing faster than it ever has.

[NVMojo]

3. ...and we only throw peolple like Martha Stewart in prison in America

[Straight Shooter]

19. Well, that's cuz people don't want to have a beer with Martha at a bar-b-q

She also ain't born-agin.

If you're charming and wear Texas boots, you can get away with murder!

[musette_sf]

25. I heard some finance guy on an SF radio station

commenting after Martha's conviction, saying that the POTUS is guilty of far more serious insider trading... so why Martha?

Has the statute of limitations run out on Harkin insider trading yet?

[KatieB]

4. Tell your husband this is the same media who Bush's FCC tried to

gift with new concentration in ownership rules. Powell is the Chair of the FCC (son of Colin P.) He tried to change the rules so one corporation could control 90% of the media outlets (yes, broadcasting, cable, newspapers, radio) in a single community (market). Now that's power. The MSM have an economic reason to keep Bush in office. (Powell, btw, says he's going to stay at the FCC). Point made.

[spotbird]

7. He is like everyone but us.

He believes what he has to and disregards the rest.

He wanted me to say tonight that Kerry won, my problem is that I haven't any idea who won, I wish I did. I do know that one party controls that process in some critical areas and that party won't allow an audit, now why would that be? If the elections were free an fair they would be transparent, why should that be an issue?

As long as we aren't allowed to confirm the results they are suspicious.


on edit: The problem in a marriage is that we have to agree on which way to go forward, we haven't ever had major disagreements before after 20 years together. He believes that policy is misguided, but not that catastrophe is in the waiting.

[txindy]

8. Will he believe B*sh's own 'hometown' newspaper calling it "treason?"

Have him read this and decide how trustworthy the election truly was:

http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/Columns/Editorial/editorial48.htm

Treason. Kind of gets your attention, doesn't it?

[spotbird]

9. He is a scientist and an engineer.

Very little persuades him opinion-wise, but damn that is good stuff. How long will that paper stay in print? Where do I buy a subscription?

Back to the subject at hand, I am very fortunate in that my husband is one of the most honest and sincere people I have ever known. The problem with some people who would never cheat anyone is that they assume the best about everyone until mountains of contrary evidence is presented. Actually that isn't a problem for them since it is what makes them happy, but for a spouse who sees the dark side...

[txindy]

11. Here's the Crawford info.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=115595#116288

They survived the fallout from endorsing John Kerry for president, so I'm hoping they survive this, too. It's nothing less than a declaration of war, though, and working in such a small town won't make this easy on any of them. They have to truly believe in what they wrote to brave the consequences because there WILL be consequences. And I doubt they'll all be financial ones. They're obviously willing to do whatever it takes to get the word out, even sacrifice their business and risk their personal safety along with that of their families. That's a bit more than opinion, that's deep conviction and action.

I do know what you mean about your husband being a scientist and an engineer, though. I've got one of those, too. ;) Quantitative evidence is all they'll accept. But the story has got to start somewhere before the detailed evidence is presented. Hopefully, we'll all learn a lot more at the Congressional hearings starting on Wednesday. I'll be glued to C-Span, I'm sure.

[spotbird]

16. I live in a similar small town in Oklahoma.

Survival is not an option for that paper. I will buy a subscription at any rate.

Here the the heart of Red Country the current debate is just how courageous the evangelical community is for taking a stand against the single Episcopalian priest who had the nerve to say God loves everyone, including gays. They are having seminars, writing letters to the editor and generally commending themselves for taking the stand against this one priest with a small congregation. They pretend to not notice that he is no threat to them at all, they are just grateful that there is someone stating the heresy so they can channel their hatred. If he weren't here they'd have to invent him.

Through the whole thing that is most confounding part is that they repeatedly complement each other on the courage it has taken them to come out against homosexuality, when it is abundantly beneficial to their cause. If I knew how to spell Kafkaesque, that is how I'd describe my little town.

I've changed religions, who knew that 1 & 1/2 hour long service would be interesting just to hear an honest man speak for a 15 minute sermon? Actually, the ritual is peaceful despite its length (but they could cut it down by a half hour).

[Nightjock]

26. What a horrible story of hatred!

Could you give me a link to an article or two in the local newspapers?I would like to read about that.

[spotbird]

29. I just checked the web page

of the local paper, not a single story remains there now. They do plan a piece tomorrow about a seminar held over the weekend. If they post it on the web page I'll update.

[bj2110]

12. I'm an engineer. Very logic driven. I don't like opinions, either, but...

this election knocked my socks off. It's not a matter of opinion anymore. There are too many numerically substantiated signs of something large here. Something that this country hasn't seen in a long time. Long before my time, anyway. At least since Watergate. Yes, that was before my time...

[Blue_In_AK]

22. Engineers

My husband is a retired marine engineer, and he's absolutely furious about this election (although not quite as addicted to this message board as I am - LOL).

[Kellis]

23. I agree

The circumstances regarding this election are overwhelming.There is so much out there to support fraud.No denying it.

[MarkusQ]

10. Learn from history

Have your husband go back and dig up the December 1972 MSM headlines. IIRC, there was a lot about Vietnam, the economy, youth culture, The Posidon Adventure, etc. and not much at all about the fact that a sitting president had used CIA operatives to bug and burgle the Democratic National Committee's headquarters in the Watergate Hotel.

The fact that it wasn't being covered didn't mean it wasn't true.

--MarkusQ

[ClintCooper2003]

13. There's a major thread regarding ABC-7 in South Florida....

check it out... it was posted yesterday.

[spotbird]

17. Do you have an easy link?

Research here isn't as easy as it used to be.

Thanks.

[Kurovski]

21. Keith Olbermann of MSNBC

here is his blog:

<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/>

He reports regularly on his show "Countdown"

Does anyone have links to past reports? Spotbird, can you watch vids on your computer? do you have Windows Media Player?

[spotbird]

30. Yes we can. nt

[Hamoth]

24. http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&selectstate=FL&s

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=date&selectstate=FL&selectproblemtype=Machine+malfunction

This site has what you need. LOTS of issues, all MSM.

http://www.crooksandliars.com for Kieth Olbermann archived.

[Nothing Without Hope]

28. Check out this DU thread - NYT article on OH

Here's the DU thread about the NYT article:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x121361

If you don't want to register for the NYT, the same two NYT authors also posted an article on the Ohio situation online here:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/07/news/ohio.html
(As noted in another DU thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=123676&mesg_id=123676&page=)

It's not just Keith Olbermann any more. It's starting to break into the MSM.