So what happens if * is inaugurated before we prove he rigged

[carolinalady]

the election? Can a president be impeached for stealing an election?
If so, does Cheney have the right to be Pres since he was on the same ticket or would it go to the next in line?

[tk2kewl]

1. stealing an election is treason imo /nt

[proudtobeadem]

2. Once it's proven....

IMPEACH IMPEACH IMPEACH eom

[SmokingJacket]

3. Of course he can be impeached.

High crimes and misdemeanors.

Cheney too... yay.

But who does that leave? Hastert?

He's speaker of the house, right?

Uhh. Hastert??

[whalerider55]

20. i gotta say

reminds me of the gerald ford 1974 scenario- from minority leader of the house to president in what 8 months?

as LBJ said, he thought Gerald Ford played too much football without a helmet.

i will say this, for him though- i've met Kerry, Kennedy, Nader, Udall, and heard a host of others speak- but i once shook hands with ford (1976)and he was the flatout most presidential-looking person i'd ever seen.

not charismatic, just looked straight at you and shook your hand like it meant something.

whalerider55

[Withywindle]

60. Uggghhhh...Hastert

Blergh. (That's my fantasy for 2006. I want that ugly red zit on my beautiful blue state OUT.)

[bemis12]

4. If we proved fraud

Then Bush could and would be impeached, if it were proven that he was involved.

Cheney would then be President, unless it could be proved that he was involved.

Dennis Hastert is third in line.

[carolinalady]

9. Aye yi yi--that is reassuring! My ulcer is acting up tonight. n/t

[bemis12]

11. Here's the whole line of succession

Note that some have resigned:

* The Vice President Richard Cheney
* Speaker of the House John Dennis Hastert
* President pro tempore of the Senate Ted Stevens
* Secretary of State Colin Powell
* Secretary of the Treasury John Snow
* Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
* Attorney General John Ashcroft
* Secretary of the Interior Gale A. Norton
* Secretary of Agriculture Ann M. Veneman
* Secretary of Commerce Donald Evans
* Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao
* Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy G. Thompson
* Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Alphonso Jackson
* Secretary of Transportation Norman Yoshio Mineta
* Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham
* Secretary of Education Roderick Paige
* Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony J. Principi
* Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge

[carolinalady]

12. Know anything about Ted Stevens?

[Blue_In_AK]

40. Uncle Ted

Regularly brings home the BIG BACON for Alaska. He's God up here. He's kind of a crotchety old guy. I'm sure he's had his shady dealings (I mean, after all, he's been in Washington since 1970), but I think his heart's probably in the right place, if such can ever be said of a Republican politician. I doubt that he's particularly impressed by Georgie Boy.

[Stand and Fight]

45. Not everyone on that list

Elaine Chao is disqualified because she is not a natural U.S. citizen; that is, she was not born here and therefore she cannot assume the office of president. Homeland Security Secretary will be moved up to number eight pending legislative changes. The first Democrat on that list is Norman Yoshio Mineta... Perhaps it could get down to him... lol
:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

15. If you think there is a snowball's chance in hell that a GOP congress

(starting with the House) would ever entertain impeachment hearings, I have some high and dry land in Monroe County, FL you might be interested in......
:eyes:

[TexasChick]

18. I don't know Karl. I have definitely thought about this too. But, if

there is enough citizen outcry, the GOP could possibly cave? Could they try to save their party? If they wouldn't impeach the Chimp, it might ruin the Repubichair party for a while. I dunno really, just a thought...

[kerry2win]

39. I agree depends on public outcry/opinion

they'll be more worried about saving their own future and not going down with the ship(chimp)

[Stand and Fight]

46. Yeah, I agree with you.

I've thought about it that way myself. I know a number of Republicans whom I have talked to here who have told me that Bush should have already been impeached for his crimes. So, I do think that there would be enough public outcry to make them think. Would they actually follow through with it? I don't know.

[googly]

41. You are much too funny

}( :7 B-) ;-)

[IAMREALITY]

5. Just depends how widespread through the administration the fraud goes

Impeach every last damn one of 'em.

:)

[politicaholic]

6. I'm personally hoping for the rapture right after the superbowl...

then we wouldn't have to deal with impeaching the "Moron appointed by God to be the King of the Ignorant."

Cheney as president...sends shivers.

[RaulVB]

7. No worries, the entire regime would fall (n/t)

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Falls under High Crimes and Misdemeanor

[Liberty Belle]

44. Yes, but only if you prove Bush/Cheney knew.

They'd roast Rove on a spit if it would save their owon hides.

[AndrewClarke]

10. Here's my guess

IF fraud were eventually PROVEN,

and IF Bush and/or Cheney were implicated,

and IF it were so obvious that even Republicans were against him,

then I think both parties would apply pressure for Cheney to resign,

and for Bush to appoint Kerry as his Vice President,

and for Bush to resign.


That's a bunch of pretty big "IF"s . . .

[bemis12]

28. Kerry appointed VP?

That's..... crazy. Never would happen.

[Catamount]

35. Fantastic idea

but can you imagine either one ever resigning?
I can't

[Stand and Fight]

47. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Bush and Cheney are the types to carry grudges. Bush would definitely NOT do the honorable thing. And even if he did the Republicans would not confirm Kerry as Vice-President, because they are just that petty and small in their thinking and outlook.

[bunny planet]

64. So true, I'm convinced * doesn't possess an honorable bone in his body.

[karlrschneider]

13. Once he's inaugurated, he's the pretzeldent. Period, paragraph.

There is essentially no possibility of impeachment given the make of "congress."

We are, I am sorry to say, well and truly fucked.

[trayfoot]

23. Treason defined

I don't think that even if fraud is proven against Bush/Cheney personally that it would fit the definition of treason in the Constitution, Article III, Section 3.

"Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Treason is the only crime defined in the Constitution. The Framers intended the very specific definition here to prevent the loose use of the charge of treason-----for example, against persons who criticize the government. Treason can be committed only in time of war and only by a citizen or resident alien.

The only recourse would be enough pressure brought to bear to force resignations. With this Congress, I doubt that even impeachment would be viable.

[Stand and Fight]

49. Sigh...

Treason is not the only grounds listed as impeachable offenses.
HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. Read the Nixon proceedings and then you will truly understand grounds for impeachment. Bush and Cheney fit it to a "T." Furthermore, read John Dean's, Nixon's former White House Counsel, book Worse Than Watergate. He was around for that scandal, and he's an expert and Republican who says that there are CLEAR AND PRESENT grounds for impeachment. The only thing that prevents it is that the media is not doing their jobs to inform the people, and Congressional makeup actually plays very little part in it. Keep in my that the Republicans went along with the Nixon impeachment...
:eyes:

[saracat]

55. Different kind of Repugs.

These people are different.I wouldn't count on their votes. They don't have any concience. Even Prescott Bush voted for a Civil Rights Bill that almost cost him his seat. No Repug today would do that. Look at that sellout McCain. There are no profiles in courage to be had. Now if it affects their position or pocketbook????

[lthuedk]

59. However, this country is not a fascist dictatorship. And a coup by

such people should be regarded as a foreign occupation. The sooner common people realize what this administration is, the sooner it can be treated accordingly.

We have no superpower to come to our rescue. We have only ourselves. Our military leaders must be turned and our politicians must grow some courage. Petty politics must yield to solidarity.

[proudtobeadem]

25. No they're F*cked, because

1)the whole administration and party will be sullied for a long time.

2)Hopefully, this will wake people up and they'll lose all power(repugs)

3)E-voting will be out or fixed (repaired) which means they'll never win another election again. The only reason they have been winning all these races fraud, they can't win without it.

[ailsagirl]

31. excellent points

[proudtobeadem]

34. Thanks, but you know, now that I think

of it....when they realize how screwed they're going to be wouldn't they turn on him? I mean I'm kinda new to politics but I've heard that a lot of real repubs don't agree with his policies/don't like him.

[MarkusQ]

48. Not just e-fraud

Not just e-fraud. A lot (most?) was plain old fashioned dirty tricks. Moving polling places, putting precincts together, not giving adequate resources to the opposition's precincts, etc. They may have e-frosted the cake, but they baked it from time tested recipes.

--MarkusQ

P.S. Also, it isn't clear to me that we know enough to secure e-voting at this point. At least, every week or two I think up a new way it could be rigged, and that means there are probably lots more I haven't thought of.

[Samantha]

14. Jonathan Turley addressed this issue in his Countdown interview

While reviewing the various upcoming deadlines, the last one he mentioned was Inauguration Day. Hypothetically speaking, of course, if one proved fraud after a president were inaugurated, too bad. The only way he or she could be removed after the swearing in ceremony would be to acquire literal proof the inaugurated president had involvement in the fraud. Barring that proof, the only way he or she could be removed would be through the traditional means one removes any president: proof of high crimes and misdemeanors.

So, hypothetically speaking, if on January 21, you acquired proof Karl Rove "stole" the election for Bush*, tough luck for Kerry, unless you could prove Bush* had knowledge and participation in the theft. Barring that proof of Bush* involvement, four more years for Bush*.

[carolinalady]

19. Then comes the story from the WH about * mental health

problems during the election--on psychotropic meds and all that stuff from the pressure, etc. He's just fine now, however, doctors able to successfully wean him from all medications, but he was completely out of touch with Mr. Rove's election maneuvers and was in no way personally involved.
Damn I should start a new career as a PR person.

[proudtobeadem]

26. Wouldn't there then be a question

of mental incompetence?
I mean if a Doctor has to be competent to practice, shouldn't the leader of the (so-called) Free world?

[carolinalady]

29. well, technically speaking (as a nurse)

a person could be on Zoloft or Paxil or something like that which can make them feel sluggish, etc without being considered incompetant-but my point was IF they would use such a ploy they will be quick to deny that he still requires medication or IF he was on some type of meds, usually after 1-2 months the body compensates and you lose that strange disjointed feeling. You can be sure if push comes to shove they will have some very PLAUSIBLE explanation of why George did not know about a vote fix.

[proudtobeadem]

33. Well, I tried :(

[bunny planet]

It's come out that Kennedy was in so much pain from Addison's disease

that he was literally a walking pharmacy while he was in office. Of course this info. came out thirty years after the fact, don't know what would have happened if it had been revealed during his presidency.

[Stand and Fight]

50. Yes.

He does have to be competant. Research Woodrow Wilson and Dwight D. Eisenhower AND Ronald Reagan if you are unsure about the legal ramifications of presidential competance or the implications of a lack of such.

[Vinnie From Indy]

21. Succession

You are correct about removal of the president after inauguration. It is clearly spelled out in the Constitution. He can only be removed at that point by impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors. Unless Cheney were also implicated and impeached, he would become president.

[ailsagirl]

30. Cheney??? BLECCCCHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

[Karmadillo]

32. If it's conclusively fraud, we shut down Washington DC until

the duly elected President is allowed to take office. The inauguration will mean nothing once we make it clear Bush gets only one unelected term in office, not two.

[googly]

42. If Bush** is inaugurated, refer to him with double asterisks.

One * for 2000 and the 2nd for 2004.

[whalerider55]

16. are we suggesting

that this conspiracy, no matter how evident to us, can actually be traced directly to Rove and Bush? I think it is a real one, but no-one has suggested ashred of evidence that this driven in any way nationally, with the exception of aiding and abetting by the RNC. don't get me wrong, thgis whole thing has a perfectly rovian aroma, but i just don't see it getting any higher than feeny, some rnc, and about 1,500 party apparatchniks across the US- oh, and a few corporations.

and that the 109th congress, which won't even let dems in on rulemaking, just made a rule that would enable an indicted Majority leader to keep his post pending a review by the party caucus, and has threatened to go nuclear on judgeships and abridge the filibuster would vote to impeach and try bush on election fraud? How about engaging us in a war under demonstrably false premises? No?

I posted earlier tonite that i believe it would be the 110th congress that would begin to address all these grievences. the 109th has all but made its bed; the dems have refused until too late to frame the vote fraud issue as a constitional issue. That in turn sent a message out to a lot of new voters about what dems would fight for; and it sent a message out to new voters and new dem activists that we are wallowing in the culture of concession. The problem is imho, and it is only my opinion, that by not burning down the house on enfranchisement now, we have really jeopardized the support of people in 2006- even if we could make sure that the votes would be counted. but after "losing" three consecutive federal elections in four years, that the dems were unprepared to deral proactively with issue, and then were sluggush to react; well, you can only shoot yourself in the foot so many times before you run out of bullets or shoe leather.

whalerider55

[ClassWarrior]

17. We press on!! Job one is fixing our screwed up election system.

NGU.

[whistle]

22. Impeach him and all of the crooks who put him there

[tandem5]

24. what happens? We avert a civil war...

no real media coverage and then the sudden revelation that Kerry actually won. You don't think the other side wont pick up arms and say "we wuz robbed! Get them lying cheatin’ liberals!" Okay so you get the idea. I think its far better for our country to prove fraud conclusively (however long that takes).

[Stand and Fight]

51. LOL

I love that quote. I just see a bunch of slack-jawed yokels picking up their guns and going into the streets proclaiming, "We wuz robb'd!" Good lord that is just some funny ass imagery!!!

:silly:

[tandem5]

56. well I hear those kind of people on that call in show on c-span...

with the whole "those democrats better not try to take away *my* president!" What is this "my president" stuff? That indicates a very strong personal identification that can have ugly consequences.

[Her Blondness]

27. We need to take the House before we can impeach

Hopefully that will happen in 2006. Never mind election fraud, there are other things to impeach him for.

[Kansas Wyatt]

36. Reduce his rank to private...

Tattoo "Bring'em On" on his forehead, and then send him to Iraq to fight "terrists". Oh, and send him on patrol by himself, and all of his family can go on patrol together.

[carolinalady]

37. LMAO n/t

[saracat]

38. We are screwed. We haven't got the votes to impeach.

Whatever happens, happens now or never. That is why the Bev Harris situation was bad. All of these people who claim they know something have to prove it NOW. It is D Day folks. I am still thinking of hauling my ass outa here if nothing happens. A lot of Dems tell me this is an overreaction ,but they thought I overreacted to 2000 as well. I regret I didn't leave then, but I was talked into staying. I only have to find a way of getting money consolidated , sell house and stuff and look into a job market. But I am hoping against hope it doesn't come to that. Please somone have some proof!

[Liberty Belle]

43. If Bush won by fraud, I'll bet some Reps in Congress did, too.

Someone should start looking at those races, starting with Tom Daschl, the majority leader at the top of the GOP hit list.

If fraud is proven once, the public would be more apt to believe it in subsequent cases. Who knows how many Congressional and Senate seats should really be occupied by Democrats?

Has anyone check to see if when votes were dropped, switched to Bush, etc., how that affected the Senate candidates (or House members) in those areas?

[Stand and Fight]

52. Minority leader, not Majority leader.... n/t

It'd be great if we did have the majority though... sigh.

[Liberty Belle]

61. Oops.. wishful thinking.

[k8conant]

53. THIS IS FRAUD: the courts can overturn the election!!!

If widespread fraud and irregularities are proven that would change the results of the election, the courts could overturn the outcome and give it to Kerry/Edwards. That's what happens in fraud and perjury cases. Bush can still move on back to Crawford and Cheney to whatever hole he'd call home.

I fought the government for 6 years to get my retirement and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit was instrumental in overturning the OPM decision (because the IRS had breached an agreement with me) and I got the retirement retroactive to the time I left.

[rumpel]

54. Just like the Iraq abuse scandal

I'm afraid, it will stop way at the bottom. What then?

[pointsoflight]

57. You would have to prove he was involved or had knowledge, IMO.

That's the only way I see an impeachment. It's much more likely that someone lower on the totem pole would take the fall.

[Matilda]

58. What is the most important legal point?

Who was actually responsible for election fraud, or proving that
Kerry actually won and the presidency of Bush or any other Republican
is thereby invalid? If Bush didn't win, doesn't that render the
whole idea of a Republican presidency redundant?

If it begins to look as if there's definite, provable fraud before
January 20th, is there any provision for having the inauguration
postponed until the matter is settled clearly one way or the other?

[bunny planet]

62. What I'm afraid * will do is declare Constitutional crises, and then

martial law. Just don't know if he'd have the military back him up, I think they hate him at this point, after all he's done.

[smartvoter]

63. You'd have to tie him to it directly to impeach. n/t

[robbedvoter]

65. Same thing happened in 2000 I guess. MSM sorta wrote - in a convoluted

way that Gore won (by 202 votes only if you eliminate the fake military ballots), and many other scenarios... And then, 911 came , and we loved him for it - at least so we were told.