People didn't believe Watergate either at first!

[Razorback_Democrat]

this votergate or whatever you want to call it is so much more serious in my opinion

if the allegations (any of them are true)

then we have serious problems and if they are proven true then our country will have to deal with them.

a lot of people don't want to do that

they would rather just keep the status quo, don't upset the stock markets, etc.

but our democracy is on the line here

We have to keep pushing on!

[Cherie59]

1. I agree with you 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IAMREALITY]

2. And Push On We Will, My Brother

Don't Worry, we have many at DU that are loyal to this cause until the end, no matter what. We Refuse to fail in our plight. That is why we will continue to stand up in the face of naysayers and pushovers and declare that we will not be swayed.

This is a fight we did not ask for, but a fight nonetheless we must win.

I am with you.

[neversaynever]

3. it's almost too hard to believe

for a lot of people.

The reaction I sometimes get from (otherwise) thinking people is:
c'mon, like how do you think they could pull this off with the whole world watching?

We know they're as stupid and as evil and criminal as we know they are, but they've convinced the rest of the world that they're too stupid to pull it off.

Who wants to admit they just got swindled by the stupidest man in the world?
No one.

And who wants to go through the hell of facing the facts?

Only the very few.

but what the rest are missing, especially when they start going on about 2006 and 2008, is that there ain't gonna be a 2006 or 2008 if we don't succeed in getting this out. I doubt the country's economic infrastructure will survive another 6 months of the Chimp. Now, if you could get people to believe THAT, you might get them to come out in force for one last push to get this criminal out of office.....

[The Flaming Red Head]

4. I want them to investigate these companies that handle voter registration

list, too. Lots of snakes in that bunch.

[SueZhope]

5. so true!!!

When I tell people about this they say
things like there "over it"

My answer to them: "your over democracy"?
and they don't even know what IT is......

YUP keep pushing on with the truth.

[BlueStateBlue]

11. The sad thing is

they'd probably fight with their last ounce of strength if they thought the votes on American Idol were rigged. There's that pesky MSM issue again!

[gordianot]

6. I live in a Democrat zone (home) and I have taken hits on this.

There was fraud I understand how much was done and I know it has to be massive. I have had to make this point to skeptics in my own home.

[BlueStateBlue]

12. Me, too

I live in NJ, my employer was taking buses from NYC to Philadelphi to campaign for Kerry, his wife signed up for Lawyers for Kerry. When I tell him about the election fraud, he agrees that the fix was in but refuses to act on it. I think a lot of people are just depressed and taking a defeatist attitude.

[tridim]

7. Much more serious..

In fact I believe it's the second most serious event in American history. Second only to the American Revolution.

[neversaynever]

17. IMO, it's more serious than that...on an international scale...

Check out: WOrse than Watergate
by John Dean

http://www.twbookmark.com/books/15/031600023X/chapter_excerpt18541.html

Or this nice collection of Bushitler links.

http://www.kitwatkins.com/pages/speak/bush-hitler.htm

Are all these people alarmist tin-foil twits, or might they be on to something?

[TexasChick]

18. Wow! Never seen the kitwatkins.com link before! I bookmarked it to

show my fundie aunt, who just loves that lying, fake Christian smirking Chimp!

[neversaynever]

19. well, she'll probably just reject it....as "pinko commie crap"

I've been pretty selective about what to send whom...save the alarmist (READ: realistic, true) predictions and analyses for "true believers"

But your fundie Aunt might respond to the Iconoclast's most recent editorial (I think I've also posted this elsewhere)...here it is again.

http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/Columns/Editorial/editorial48.htm

Do a google search on "sojourners" -- I think they have some good stuff that might help "persuade" good christian folk.

(sorry, I had the url once....things are how shall we say, "rather chaotic" on this machine at the moment!)

[TexasChick]

21. I'm Christian, just not a fundie, and I don't believe a damn word these

PNACers say! They make me cuss like that all the time. I get so frustrated with these right wingers! I have nothing in common with them. They are so intolerant of others and practice nothing about the good teachings of Jesus Christ. Chimp wouldn't know Jesus from a rock on the ground. It's just all a front. Sadly, he uses God's good name in justifying a savage war!

[neversaynever]

22. I'm not christian, but I agree one hundred percent

with what you're saying and it really pisses me off the way these folks try to establish a monopoly on Christianity and attempt to portray THEIR version of it as the "Word"

I know and work with a lot of very devout Christians, and not a ONE of them supports this Admin, not a ONE of them thinks like this, Not a ONE.

[TexasChick]

24. I saw so many dumbya stickers on cars outside of my church that I quit

going, I was so mad! But, I started to think that these people are just gullible(sp?). BUT, I don't think my preacher likes the Chimp! Seriously! He always has a very SUBTLE way of putting it. You know, churches cannot advocate politcs and such. He even onced claimed that he DID NOT trust anyone who says that God talks to them and tells them to do things. He had to go no further with me! I knew exactly what he was talking about. Remember the Chimp telling us that God told him to strike at Afghanistan and then al Queada? Baloney! That is a sure sign of insanity! God does not tell you to kill people! One of his specific commandments was "Thou shalt not kill." Plus, I don't think anyone "hears" God. That's why the bible was written. This is how we read and adhere to God's words. You get that, Chimp? You're insane and you are dragging our God's name through the mud. This is why I feel so many non-believers "don't like" God! They really believe this is how God is when you have insane people talking like this about him, pure misinformation to lure the feeble-minded sheeple (fake Christians - right wingers)!

[Razorback_Democrat]

26. Luckily I go to a church where there are (still) lots of Kerry stickers

on the cars in the parking lot

In a "Red" county

in a "Red" state

Gotta love it!

[understandinglife]

8. Lived through it, in DC, across the street from one...

....of the many "president's men." And, had a bunch of the others in the neighborhood, several of whom were indicted and convicted, though not the one who should have been put in jail and left their to rot. And, with that background I assure you, you are correct. From the first report of 'Watergate' through to the first reports of 'the tapes', many, not just in DC but throughout the Nation and the world greeted the news with the equivalent of "your &%&#ing nuts" (and many other derisive comments). And, the folk digging out the truth, one spade full at a time, risked their lives, not just their reputations, for our Democracy.

Tomorrow will be the day that many, many more, who have not been participating in the discussion during the past 4 weeks, will begin to learn of the Constitutional crisis of 2 Nov 2004 and the fact that we are facing a serious threat to that Constitution at a time when we are also at war.

Rather ironic that tomorrow is the 43rd anniversary of the US declaring war on Japan and that now we are once again confronting a real enemy, the one we have faced since Nov 2000 (and it's not Iraq).

Interesting times ahead.

Peace.

"Did Bush Know?"

[Razorback_Democrat]

10. Great post! n/t

[truehawk]

9. Or Iran Contra, Or BCCI

[rdmccur]

13. Received this note from my dad

(who is a vet)
"Ron
This has widespread dissemination thru out the veteran and mil retirees communities of our state." (our state is NM) referring to the following
message "READ: Massive Vote Fraud Not Covered By Mainstream Media]


Not only that but my local paper, the Las Cruces Sun News, is rejecting letters to the editor on voting fraud and other irregularities."

and further down is referenced this:

THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA ISN'T COVERING THE MASSIVE VOTING FRAUD OF 2004

From Carolyn Bninski, Rocky Mountain Peace and Justice Center, Boulder, Colorado

Faced with mounting evidence of massive voting fraud, we are asking each and every one of you to help restore the integrity of the election process in the United States. One of the biggest problems we have at the moment is that evidence of fraud is coming out regularly, but the corporate media is refusing to cover these stories.

Votergate: More details emerge
http://onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120104Madsen/120104madsen.html
(...) The use of foreign nationals as election machine technicians on Election Day has also been confirmed. Sources with details of the vote rigging stated that some foreign nationals were involved in the reprogramming of Diebold and other machines in the four key states of Florida, Ohio, Texas, and California. The technicians successfully padded votes in Ohio to ensure that state's 20 electoral votes went to the Bush column. In populous counties in Florida, Texas, and California, the vote padding ensured that Bush's nationwide popular vote margin was well in excess of 3 million votes, giving him 51 percent of the national vote over John Kerry. One unsuccessful Democratic candidate in California voiced concerns about whether the alleged vote padding in his state affected his own vote count.Vote padding for Bush's popular vote may have also been used in Maryland. (...) Sources familiar with the Votergate scandal have stated that foreign nationals from Mexico, Brazil, and Russia were used to "fix" selected machines in critical counties and precincts in Florida, Ohio, Texas, and California. Moreover, some of these individuals have been associated with organized crime activity, including computer hacking, in the United States and abroad. Those familiar with the use of Diebold machines to commit voter fraud have revealed that the hardware and software used in Diebold machines used in casinos and polling places is essentially the same, including the back door used to dial in over telephone lines to change payoff odds in gambling machines. The same mechanism was used to change votes, the sources contend. This is a followup to Saudis, Enron money helped pay for US rigged election and More on the buying of electoral fraud by the Bush campaign. CLIP

Conyers to Hold Hearings on Ohio Vote Fraud
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120404W.shtml

So people are finding out about this despite the MSM blackout (which is starting to crack I believe)

Ron

[blue morality]

14. Will it damage the GOP?

I keep thinking about what will happen if during the next year or so we can prove that they rigged the vote. I have a degree in history, and I can't think of anything in our past that has been as bad for a political party as this could be. If the knowledge goes very far up the party leadership, I think it could be the downfall of the Republican party. Of course, not the downfall of conservatism, just this party. Remember many people said if Bush won (or lost but rigged his way in) there would be a civil war in the Republican party. The party is under stress the way it is, I really don't think it could stand something as serious as a rigged election.

[MarkusQ]

15. What to tell your Republican friends

As a Republican who has lots of Republican friends (my state is pretty darned red) I've been doing a lot of real world experiments on how best to communicate vote fraud as a non-partisan issue. But I've also found a few good partisan pitches, and one of the best (when talking to Republicans) is this:

If it's true that there was fraud, the sooner we get it out in the open and deal with it, the better. If it's false, the sooner we can prove that the better. The only thing that will help is lots of daylight and pushing till we get to the truth in such a way that everyone can see that it's the truth. Stonewalling is just going to make us look like we're going down the same path Nixon did--and you remember how well that worked out.

If it turns out Bush & the Neo-cons crossed the line, being in the vanguard exposing them will make it much easier to survive the scandal. And if they're innocent, taking the lead in the investigation and making sure that we are open, honest, and up front about it gives us a great chip the next time some Democrat gets caught with his pants around his knees.

The only way to lose here is to try to cover up and stonewall when we don't even know for sure if there's a problem.

One more hint: in the same way that, when talking to Democrats it's better to say "the Democratic party" than "the Democrat party", when talking to Republicans you get further if you don't call them "Repugs" or any similar terms of endearment.

--MarkusQ

[Catherine Vincent]

20. Republicans in my state:

"bu but what about Bush? We can't let that happen to him."

[MarkusQ]

23. The Republican mindset

I'm in danger of over generalizing here, but (in my experience) the Republican attitude toward guilt is that you "can't let that happen to him" unless he's guilty, in which case he should fry.

I'm sure you've heard the chant about individual responsibility. What it boils down to is "protect the innocent, smite the guilty." If you cast this as a crusade to find the truth there's no way a real Republican can object. If he's innocent, his good name will be cleared. If he's guilty, we'll be on solid grounds to stone him. Either way, justice will be served.

--MarkusQ

[newyawker99]

16. Hi blue morality!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[HEAVYHEART]

25. I totally agree.