Anybody not care about the election reform if we can't rid of Bush ?

[saracat]

I keep seeing posts about Democracy being "bigger" than Kerry . Democracy being "bigger " than 2004. Some Duer's think it is more important to have election reform. I don't give a damn about election reform, if we don't reform this election. As far as I am concerned, if they don't overturn this election, it will be too late. Democracy will be finished. There will be nothing to reform. I am really beginning to be discouraged. I don't see any real media attention. The reaction from the Kerry Camp seems definitely to be about 2008, our congressman and Senators are voting right along with the repugs(Patriot Act 2!) and nothing is being done. We have crackpots running around with grandiose claims and no one has done anything noteworthy, including Conyer's forum. Everything is minimal and is adding up to nothing. I will go to the protest on the 12th, and then sadly ,I think I must reconsider moving. I don't think I want to watch this.

[NMDemDist2]

1. sara I think you might want to do a bit more research on the new

Intelligence Director bill that just passed. Calling it Patriot Act II is misleading

I don't agree with the bill they passed (since it was gutted in the house) but it isn't the PAII (thank heaven)

and yes I think we have to do everything we can to change the elections for the future. I fear if we push overturning this election we will be marginalized as "sore losers" and democracy will really die.

let them think they won this one (as it seems they have) but take every action to make sure it can't be done again

re frame the debate, be loud and be proud and get those damn machines accountable

[saracat]

6. From What I have read as well as what Congressman Paul of Texas writes ,

oh yes it is Patriot Act 2 . It more extensively deprives us of our rights than the original. A national ID card? Indefinate detainment of citizens without cause? Checkpoints between the states?

What makes you think they will allow an election , a real election ,in 2008? And what makes anyone think anyone cares? Our leadership doesn't care and the people don't care. They couldn't even muster up more than 500 people in Ohio. The Ukraine cares more than we do.

[bunny planet]

17. You are so right, it was slipped in with the Intelligence Bill. But Dems

had to have known that too. Very upsetting. I'll bet the Repubs made a deal, they'll allow the Intell bill to pass if you'll look the other way on Patriot 2 addition.:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: There was just too much suspicious stuff about getting that Intell. bill passed. * says he wants it but it's held up in Congress for days. * really didn't want it to pass but he wanted Patriot 2 more, so he holds out (or instructs Congress to hold out) until he gets it. They are despicable.

[googly]

43. The dems voted in much larger numbers than repugs for this bill

That dispells any fears from my mind that it is PAII.

[Amigust]

59. Disconnect.

The Dems also voted for PA I. That didn't mean it wasn't PA I.

[NicRic]

55. Isnt that what we should have done after 2000 ? N/T

[Spiffarino]

2. No, I still care

If Bush got more votes, that's the way it goes. There's no accounting for smarts.

No, it goes way beyond Bush. Voting should be easy. Fuck the Republican spin; voting should be as easy as getting money out of an ATM, as buying a ticket to a hockey game, as easy as walking the dog.

There are lots of things killing our democracy, but none more than the stupid voting laws that were designed many years ago to depress turnout among poor people and minorities. That must stop, but it won't if it isn't addressed.

So Kerry can't win. There are problems the go way beyond this god-awful man finally getting elected. If we don't get active right now and make voting easy and transparent, the opportunity will be lost.

Come on, saracat. Stay and help us fight, at least for a while longer.
;)

[dweller]

16. "So Kerry can't win"

no, the point is, the *moron can't lose at the rate things are right now. Not fairly, legally...knowingly. Regardless of who may run against him.


it just as well have been UNANIMOUS...just like when Saddam won his elections.


dp

[regularjoe]

3. I've been discouraged off and on. But right now I am not...

I don't blame you for feeling like it is hopeless but I know when I feel like that I don't get anything done. I think there is still hope and I'm going to keep trying. One of the best things we can do is become more organized and focused so our efforts have the greatest impact. I would suggest getting involved with a group outside of DU if you can. Have you heard about the new Media Task Force that is going to summarize info and write to specific people to get the word out. <http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/index.php?mforum=mtf>

Or you could try contacting Greg Palast, Hedda_foil, Bev Harris, or some of the groups that were at the House Judiciary Democrats forum because they are clearly trying to accomplish something.

Take a break if you need to but don't give up yet. :hug:


regularjoe

[saracat]

12. I do lots of work outside Du. And that is my point.Outside of DU there is

little impact. The MSM has been pathetic and even the Dems don't care.Sorry but Conyers"forum" which has no standing.It wasn't a hearing because they wouldn't let us have one, was next to worthless. It isn't that some people aren't trying, it is that most don't care, or are resigned.

[Amigust]

60. The Conyers hearings got some things entered into the Congressional Record

for future historians to consider. Maybe that was the best hope there ever was for it.

[lonestarnot]

4. I'm sorry but I can't think about reform...I want NOW...I want the real

truth now as to whom has been elected. I want to know if John Kerry is really our president come Jan. 20th.

[morningglory]

5. Jimmy Breslin said "If they are not running things the way you

would like, vote all the incombents out" (paraphrase). He said they will come knocking on your door asking you how you would like things run. He said "That is homeland security!" Well, how we gonna do anything like that if we can't vote? If they can change the votes around to accomplish any goal they want? It is terrifying. As a matter of fact they are running things like that right now. Wait!! Gotta go!! Microsoft has contacted me to inform me my pc may be running slow! Holy Geez!

[kuozzman]

7. I think about the same thing all the time....

I mean give me a break, a lot of this stuff is pretty god damn obvious and also pretty god damn undebateable!

The Warren County lockdown because of a warning from an FBI agent about Homeland Security, yet neither department knows what the hell they're talking about. And it was one of the last counties in OHIO, the deciding state, to finish counting and Chimpy came out with 68,035 to John Kerry's 26,043. Regardless of the votes, WTF??
The voting machine shortage, which I won't even get into.
SoS Blackwell's timing of the vote certification, to prevent a recount before certification.

These aren't "complaints" or "irregularities", it's fuckin evidence of fraud! Anybody with half a brain has got to know this. Surely most members of Congress are well aware, as well as the media.

I'm truly begining to think that members of congress think that the consequences of Chimp stealing the election would threaten our country. Think about it, it it's acknowledged that Bush stole this election, then it will be acknowledged that he stole it in 2000.

Think about what countries the rest of the world would think of the U.S. Some dipshit rigged the election and invaded two countries, killed over 100,000 civilians, pissed off most of the world, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and he shouldn't have even been elected? That, along with our economic dependence abroad and the unprecedented anti-Americanism we would be fucked.

Is that far fetched? It HAS to be something serious! The fraud is simply too obvious....

[gordianot]

8. Bush scares me more every day.

Lets say if Bush were to be impeached and leaves what horror would replace him?

My motto is "it is horrible now and can get worse". Not very optimistic here in the Red State of Missouri.

[googly]

61. Yap, Bush gets impeached then we get Cheney, then that fatso

speaker of the house from Illinois, and then more right wingers.

[pleiku52cab]

9. Just think of the damage the repugs have done

since they stole the first election by very simple FRAUD methods. Boy, are they getting good at it. It will be impossible to stop them after four more years of corruption and mis rule. STOP THEM NOW and our cherish4ed freedoms can still be saved.

[helderheid]

10. I agree and I don't.

It is bigger than this election and I do care about election reform (IRV, end of the electoral system, verifiable votes), but you're right, we cannot hope for ANY reform of ANY kind unless THIS election is exposed.

[saracat]

11. That is more what I meant., helderheid. If we don't expose this election,

we will be powerless to be able to reform elections of the future!

[kuozzman]

19. What are your opinions of why members of Congress are keeping quiet?

Even conyers and the committee? Plenty of things don't need an investigation, they've already been well documented as fraud. And they could absolutely be doing more than they are. I've noticed little things that made me second guess their dedication to the cause. One thing was that they very rarely, that I've heard, clarify that the suppression was not due to racism, which it what it sounds like. It's the fact that African Americans vote Democrat at such a high rate, higher than any other demographic, racial or other. Why do they allow this point to be misinterpreted? A lot of people think we're full of shit simply b/c SoS Blackwell is black and why would he suppress fellow African Americans? I know people often say that those counties vote Democrat, but one of the guys in the hearing yesterday was the first I heard clarify/emphasize the extent that they vote Democrat...

[saracat]

22. I think they are more worried about themselves.They are still going along

to get along. This is DLC centrist crap. They have themselves convinced that the DLC won the election for Clinton. Baloney .Clinton won because he was Clinton. That is why their murky ill defined centrist garbage has lost every election since. Everyone is afraid of taking a stand. The repugs might not "like " them and they could lose their support. Dumbest thing I have ever seen. Their is not going to be any bipartisanship so they should just knock it off and start representing their party.

[Truman01]

45. I spend sometime everyday on here hoping that I will see...

this evidence of fraud. So far I see NO EVIDENCE of fraud. Please enlighten me.

We have begun with a conclusion: there is no way that Bush legitimately got more votes than Kerry, and we have worked our way back wards to find evidence to support our conclusion.

But it's only accepted here for one reason: I don't think we have any evidence.

Truthinall does some really great research and statistical analysis, but you can disprove things with stats, but you can't prove them. Bev was running around grandstanding and filing lawsuits that were much to do about nothing, but I saw nothing from her. Then there is the other guy who unearthed a canceled check for 29 million dollars from some five star trust which paid for the election fixing, except they didn't pay the technicians who are now turning on the conspirators. Where are they?

I agree that withholding voting machines was wrong, and something that should be severely dealt with, but it isn't fraud. Fraud has a very specific legal definition. Even if we don't like it, we have to deal with it because if this election is to be disavowed it is going to be in the courts where that definition of fraud is the law.

I'm sorry to be such a wet blanket, I'm just tired of chasing our tail. I keep coming here looking for evidence and all I see are blanket statements that we know this election was stolen.

As I have said before, maybe we lost the election and should be concentrating on how to win it next time.

TC

[googly]

62. There can be ONLY ONE reason why the democratic politicians

are keeping quiet. They must know something which they do not want exposed in a investigation of voting irregularities. That is the only reason which would explain evertything. But I am keeping an open mind.

[Time for change]

14. I agree that it's very important to overturn this election

And we should keep on trying to do so.

But it we can't overturn this election, getting election reform so that this doesn't happen again would still be a great accomplishment. True, election reform will be less likely if this election isn't overturned -- but it's not impossible, and it's worth fighting for.

[helderheid]

28. How is it possible

without exposing what happened? (not being beligerant - truly interested in what you feel in this!!)

[Time for change]

40. I don't know if it's possible

And I agree with you that we ought to do every thing we can to overturn this election.

But if you look at the history of this country, there have been many many more reforms enacted than elections overturned.

Right now I think the focus should be overturning the election. But the two goals can be sought for at the same time. By trying to find out how the election was stolen we are making progress towards both goals simultaneously.

[newyawker99]

35. Hi Time for change!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Time for change]

57. Thank you Newyawker

It's good to be here.

[wildflower]

13. Even if the election is overturned...

the problem of the RW infrastructure, to include the media, congress, and the voting system, among others, will remain.

So, I'd have to say yes, I care even if this administration stays...though I had to think about it for a minute! :)

[helderheid]

29. If this is exposed

The RW media gets exposed too. All of it does. If this is exposed, it all gets exposed.

[americanwhothinks]

53. Thank you for Ghandi, Mother Theresa--!! n/t

[eowyn_of_rohan]

15. Right now, I care more about finding out who won this election

Contrary to many who seem to believe Bush really did win this, I believe just the opposite. We still have a month or so before the inauguration, and I will not let go of this election until then. I have been having periods of deep discouragement myself, and resent the "sheep" out there who don't take any time to educate themselves about the election illegalities (proven or suspected), and go on with their lives as if they don't realize or care we are living in a dictatorship.

I don't see how anyone can ever trust an election again, unless we find out what methods of fraud were used in the electronic voting machines and central tabulators.

We have some good, strong people working hard on this, and I think their number can only grow. I wish there was something solid I/we could contribute to this, as part of the discouragement stems from our sense of powerlessness.

Anyway, I understand what you are saying, and feel very much the same way.

[tavalon]

38. I'm absolutely convinced that Bush lost

and that fraud made up the numbers. I think Bush got 47% of the voters just like his exit poll numbers said he did. That, in and of itself is sickening.

That said, I believe that Kerry dropped the ball and the DNC dropped the ball and that the Shrub will be anointed on January 20th.

Believing that, I am working with everything I have and every breath in my body to expose whatever can be exposed and after he is reinstalled, I will be spending all the time I can to continue to expose the fraud and to make his regime a living nightmare for him and his minions. Call it a hobby. Or an obsession. Perhaps an obsessive hobby. Call it the life of a permanently radicalized populist.

That Kerry will not be the president in no way changes anything with that.

[MarkusQ]

18. I'm in it for the long haul

I can't see why any reasonable person would think that getting "their candidate" in is more important than fixing the system. First off, there is no way to get Kerry in at this point without proving fraud (or at least gross misconduct). Second, if there has been fraud and you get enough proof to get Kerry in, are you just going to let the creeps who did it off the hook? And if you don't get your proof in time to get Kerry in, are you just going to drop it?

The ONLY rational plan at this point is to forget about the goal they expect (getting Kerry in) and focus on the one they don't: keeping up the pressure as long as it takes to put every single one of them in jail for treason.

This may get Kerry in, it may not. But it's the only way for good to triumph over evil.

--MarkusQ

P.S. Focusing on getting Kerry in as "the goal" plays right into Rove's "sore loser/get over it" trap. Focusing on the non-partisan voting integrity goal is much harder for him to block. There are all sorts of ways to be against Kerry winning, but how in the heck can you sell being against fair and honest elections?

[saracat]

20. The point is with Bush still in office, there will be no

election reform. They will not allow it. And forget about the people. They are oblivious and don't care. Besides the obvious that lack of interest is why there is no MSM coverage.Ratings you know. Ironic isn't it, If you f-ck with their American Idol vote they go ballistic!
Another thing, We aren't still in the game, so it doesn't matter what they 'expect". And sore loser would only be bought by those who would never support us to begin with. These people are never going to be on our side or vote for any of our candidates so to allow them to dictate how he proceed for fear of a label they would use is ridiculous!

[Wordie]

26. Maybe one thing we could do is try to form some sort of umbrella group to

bring together all the smaller progressive groups working on election issues. If we brought them all together, maybe there would be more attention paid: strength in numbers.

I understand how you are seeing this, and I feel much the same way about a lot of what you are saying, it is very discouraging to realize that "regime change" isn't likely soon. But I also agree with Markus, that it is imperative that we fight to make sure that there is true election reform. I think there actually has been progress and much more attention now than just after the election.

There is more attention than we may realize about voting issues, and I predict that at minimum, there will be efforts to revise and update HAVA. And Conyers said something about going to OH to investigate.

We need every person who is aware of these issues to remain involved! So I hope you will reconsider.

[helderheid]

30. You're so right on.

This sounds horrid and please don't hate me for saying this, but if this doesn't get exposed, I'll consider democracy dead. Further (this is where I fear rotten eggs being thrown at me), I will accept it. I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old. I don't want them losing their mommy. It's selfish, I know and I'm sure some would argue I owe it to them. Well, as far as I am concerned I owe it to them until I can't afford to. If all else fails, I can still go back to Holland with my family.

[Amigust]

69. Sorry to be the one to bring you up to date,

but Democracy IS already dead, and has been since the 2000 election coup was allowed to go generally unexposed in the US and uncorrected. Now she can simply be displayed as a wax mock-up for the sake of discussion and convenience and held onto by those who don't yet realize she is lifeless.

All of us have to face very hard realities about the actual state of our country and what that means in our individual lives. Even as it has already begun, I think we will steadily see more and more people making decisions that will plaintively demonstrate how the German people could participate in and allow the Third Reich to have its ravaging way.

What gives me reason to continue to face this catastrophe everyday is the realization that there are many courageous people here and elsewhere who will continue to expose and resist in their own way the tyranny that is ripening.

[kuozzman]

23. Long Haul, haven't we proven fraud (or at least gross misconduct)

Is it just me, or are there at least a few things that have been proven? The decreased number of voting machines was deliberate, wasn't it?

Warren County lockdown, give me a break.

Laws/rules Blackwell got/prevented through the courts?

Other bullshit tricks he pulled-paper weight, impossibility of recount before certification?

The people who testified in the hearing yesterday have plenty, I think the hearing committee is just taking us for a ride...

Preventing a march on the White House b/c we're being ignored....

[saracat]

34. Sorry. Nothing has been proven.

There are tons of people flapping their mouths but no PROOF. Even Bev Harris won't come forward with her so called proof. If any of these people had anything, now would be the time. But I no longer believe they do. But I do believe the election was rigged.

[WritersBlock]

51. Y'know, Markus...

I may never get my post count up, and it's mostly your fault. Once again, I've sat here reading through a thread, thinking of how to put my feelings into words for a response, only to discover that you've already said exactly what I wanted to say, and much more eloquently than I ever could have done!

:toast:

[Amigust]

65. When you say that, you assume the language of an honest person.

"how in the heck can you sell being against fair and honest elections?"

Rove and Co. can and will block it, even as they have successfully done with adequate election reform up to now. We are dealing with masters of doublespeak, manipulation and mass deception.

This present election MUST be corrected NOW. With Kerry in office and the GOP everywhere else in power, adequate election reform is comatose. With Bush in office and the GOP everywhere else in power, adequate election is dead.

[ewulf]

21. If we prove fraud but Bush manages to stay in office

while being tarnished, that would still be a victory in my opinion. If we can't prove fraud, and get media attention on this at some point before 2006, we're essentially permafucked: they'll steal it bigger and more elegantly in 2006, we'll lose the filibuster in the Senate, and all will be over. If we prove fraud before '06, it will hurt the Republicans in the eyes of the public, put them under pressure to reform the system, instigate paper-trails, make recounts easier, and make elections officials more non-partisan. Even if they stick to their guns and don't change anything, it will, at very least, fire up the left to the point that we would be inspired to create our own checks and balances on the system; many would no doubt be quite happy to donate money and time to form a fair, non-partisan, extensive, and open exit-polling organization to verify the outcome of future elections. The larger and more open the exit polling, the more we can constrain the margin of theft. If we don't prove fraud, its doubtful such an effort would get of the ground and it might not have as much trust placed in it by the media and the public as otherwise.

There is hope. There is a small, but finite likelihood that things will be overturned and Kerry will become president, there is a much larger likelihood that we will prove fraud, but Bush will be president anyway. The latter possibility wouldn't be so disastrous.

[marions ghost]

31. I agree w ewulf...the timeframe is now to 2006

Even if Kerry WERE to somehow prevail and become president, wouldn't we still have to deal with this outrageous voting mess after what we have seen this year??

For those who have really had their eyes opened, I think there is no turning back. The system is rotten to the core and it will take a lot of work to turn it around. We will need everyone who has the vision to stay on board and work with groups to institute new mechanisms, operational by 06. Maybe not perfect, but a BIG improvement. That challenge is there whether B or K is inaugurated.

If we could achieve a clean voting system in this country, I think it would have a profound effect on our whole society. Not only political and social changes, but a new standard of morality, a new level of trust. Fraud and corruption is costing us all. And we must create new media--new information and entertainment resources.

We have seen that the right to vote must be protected, I think by constitutional amendment. It's basic. It could be the key to our dreams.

[tavalon]

39. Exactly

this is our moment, frankly, it's close to our last moment. If this voting fraud issue fades away, I won't ever vote again because I'll not be a part of the pageantry (the illusion of democracy usurped by corporaticans)

[fshrink]

24. It's a question of political weight put in,

and we don't have much so far. It's like the old bicycle racing: the last one to start has the edge. My guess is that bigwigs have applied a moderate indirect push so far, to taste the water. If the 3% recount shows enough promise they will increasingly weigh in. If it doesn't, it's bye-bye. The outrage took place in 2000: once you let that slide, it becomes 10 times harder to push the same issue once it has alreday been digested (the "Get over it" comment). So, yeah, if this one goes, that's it. The only way back on track is large scale popular unrest. Short of that, we're screwed for the foreseable future.

[KaliTracy]

25. I care. I would have been just as outraged

had Kerry Won Ohio, but the same issues happened (Some people being able to easily vote, other people waiting hours and hours). It is *not right* and it is *not democracy* that we are participating in if we let these (and all of the other issues) slide simply because we feel that Kerry doesn't have a chance, or other obstacles get in the way of the recounts.

The recounts are about finding out the *truth* -- which is why when the Supreme Court appointed Bush to office in the first place, it was such a travesty *that many people didn't even recognize*.

We need to saturate our indvidual state governments with letters asking for our representatives to do what they were elected to do -- REPRESENT the people.

I want Kerry in -- but I want to trust the process and hold people accountable even if that can't happen.

[Carolab]

27. Really this is a moot point

because if the election is investigated and all of the votes are properly counted (i.e. revote in Ohio for certain but preferably everywhere there are issues and questions), then the result will be that Kerry won.

So, to me, this is the point: the election should be investigated and votes should be recounted in order to discover the true winner, not just in the presidential race but in every race where precincts suffered any form of manipulation and/or suppression, because DISCERNING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE SO THAT OUR REPRESENTATIVES REPRESENT THAT WILL IS THE SOLE PURPOSE OF AN ELECTION.

[Truman01]

46. How do you know this?? If we have evidence of this let's bring an

action in Ohio courts to stop the electors. You can't just make this blanket statement and close your eyes to the fact that we have NO real evidence.

TC

[Sideways]

47. Boring

Boring. You are so trite and BORING. Get it yet? We aren't buying your garbage.

[Truman01]

56. LOL, well let me tell you Mr. Excitement if you want to do anything

but sit around here and p*ss and moan about the election it will be good old fashion BORING proof that will do it. Until then we can sit here and pretend that we have something and all get together to watch *'s inauguration.

TC,
the Boring lawyer who believes in EVIDENCE and PROOF

[Sideways]

58. You Again.......YAWN....

EOM

[The Flaming Red Head]

66. You haven't been around reading the evidence have you?

NM, FLA, OH, WY, CA, IN, AK, NV, WA etc etc etc yadayadayada

[Nordic]

32. don't get discouraged!!! Keep at it! Believe in Democracy!

even if we don't overturn this election, or are simply unable to, this is the biggest threat to democracy EVER and it HAS to be dealt with if there is to be a future of any kind!

If it takes four more years of work to reform the process and get us back to tossing colored rocks in baskets to vote for our candidates, then so be it!

What matters is that ultimately, we get our vote back.

[helderheid]

33. kick

this is one we all must ponder

[SmokingJacket]

36. I get you, but I'm slightly more optimistic.

I'm convinced Bushco will eventually bring itself down, no matter what we do.

A better government will rise from its ashes. Election reform must be ready for that time.

I HATE it that that smirking fool is sitting in the white house just as if he deserves it -- I want to give this country a good punch in the mouth for letting it happen.

But karma is a bitch. Tyrants rarely live long happy lives. Nixon was hoisted by his own petard.

B* can't control us all. Don't lose hope.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

37. there's no reason to retool the message,

or contemplate moves to the left or center, or devise the ultimate GOTV, or run the ideal candidate, or expand the electorate, or rally the base, or control the debate, or expose the corruption, or dream about change or progress or reform, or simply wait while the neocons' implode...if systematic voter suppression and fraud simply return them to power. IMHO, we're done if we don't make a serious stand now.

[americanwhothinks]

41. The crossroads of life: Big questions spirited humans will face...

I fear that if Kerry isn't elected, many spirited people (like you, saracat?) will drop out, become cynical, depressed, dispirited...

so the question is, if the worst situation occurs (ie, Kerry doesn't get his rightful position), is dropping out a solution we can live with?

Well, to me, this is one of the many big questions of life-- related to so many others--

can I have heart among the heartless?
care among the careless?
fight among the resigned?
see hope in the midst of hopelessness?

Perhaps we're always at such a crossroads-- always deciding for ourselves whether we have the heart to keep going, even in the darkest of times...

[Red State Blues]

48. I for one ...

Believe that protecting Democracy, (drastically improving the election process) is even more important than getting Bush out of the White House. I hope that they will happen simultaneously. I also hope that there is a massive discrediting of the Republicans and the Media, so massive that it's difficult to believe it could be accepted. One worry of mine is that somehow we get Kerry in the White House but that everything else remains the same.

I make this pledge, not lightly, I have been following politics since I was very young, always liberal and always encouraging everyone to vote, progressive if possible. If the Democratic leadership doesn't fight (and I mean hard!) for serious election reform I will wash my hands of politics forever. I'm tired of feeling miserable and watching every single thing or person I vote for lose year after year. I'll still work for positive causes locally but if the leading Dem's don't wake up to the tremendous danger we face they needn't ever bother me for my vote again, nor will I ever encourage anyone else.

[Patsy Stone]

42. I love John Kerry

I want to see JK become president. I want to see * leave 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., on 1/19, on a cargo plane back to Crawford. This is not only about that desire. These two situations need not be mutually exclusive.

This is also about everyone having their votes counted. That means everyone, including those we vehemently disagree with.

Watch this clip or read the text. "America is advanced citizenship." I will make you understand and it will fill you with a desire to continue to fight for both of our objectives. It will show you the way it *should* be.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechtheamericanpresident.html

Don't give up.

[MadScientist]

44. Three goals

IMO, There are three goals here.

1. Prove election fraud. (And put deserving rethugs in prison.)
2. Kerry sworn in as president.
3. Create an election system that works.


As for which we are pursuing now, it is a matter of timing.
#1 We can prove any time in the next four years, or even beyond.
#3 We need to get done within the next 2 years.
#2 Needs to happen RIGHT NOW, if ever.

So yes, right at this moment (and until Jan 20th) we'll be concentrating on Kerry as President.
This does not mean that we aren't pursuing the other two, it's just that this issue is running headlong toward its deadline.

After Jan 20th (whichever way it goes) we can refocus on the other two issues, and dig in for the long haul.

[jamboi]

49. I will still care. AND we can still give * a huge black eye and cripple

his admin. Lame duck him.

[Amigust]

70. Lame ducking him may no longer remain an option, even though * would

talk about it as long as he thought people were buying it. If he wants to continue after 2008, I'm sure he will. That is the extent of this gang's hubris and control over the machinery of power.

[Paligal]

50. Hang in there!!! Unfortunately, we probably won't overturn this one

ESPECIALLY if this election is not changed, we need to use it over the next four years to prove that fraud occured so that we can protect our next election. If we can prove they cheated, the Republicans will suffer when all those "moral values" voters need to choose next time.

We need people that believe in this to fight the good fight. But I always believed it was a long shot that we would affect the outcome of this election. With powerful people blocking our moves, there simply isn't the time to prove fraud and move it through a court of law before the inauguration. But I believe that the next four years will bring a lot to light and that will change the next election.

[Wabbajack]

52. This nation has

survived worse than George Bush.

[The Flaming Red Head]

54. You have to have an actual election before you can reform it

I didn't see an election in 04 at all. We won't see one in 06 or 08.

[intelle]

63. Saracat you might want to take a look at

this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x146067

If you haven't already.

Seems that Kerry, along with Jackson, has written a letter to be delivered tomorrow that states that he wants certain things about the election investigated. Specifically mentions that he wants the machines investigated by a bi-partisan company.

[saracat]

71. This is wonderful. I hope this works!

:) :toast:

[fshrink]

64. Looks like both could happen simultaneously! nt

[McCamy Taylor]

67. i care

[genieroze]

68. I feel your pain.

I really do, and it seems to me we need to take a stand now. Enough is enough, 2000, 2002, now 2004. WTF!

[Der Blaue Engel]

72. Every time you give up hope...

...God kills a kitten. :evilgrin:

Stop killing kittens saracat. It's not nice. :cry: :P

Feeling hopeful tonight for the first time in weeks, and nothing's going to get me down. Hang in there; we're about to pull out the big guns. :hug:

[stirringstill]

73. Sooner better than later

If we fail to get rid of Bush and he remains in office for four more years, I like so many here fear how much we will lose. If Kerry does not win but the process of recounting certain states and pushing for election reform will increase the awareness of many that we now live in a faux-Democracy. Without Kerry taking office, we will not be able to get any meaningful election reform since Congress will not want to highlight a process that could undermine the President's mandate. But, once enough people realize that government for the people, by the people and of the people is a fiction, there will be a crisis where either the democratic system is rebuilt or the state will nakedly assert itself over the people. The sooner that day comes the easier to rebuild and avoid the latter.

[Up2Late]

74. Sara, Don't Quit! Remember WATERGATE?

You may be too young to remember the November 7, 1972 election, I do, that election fell on my birthday too,:cry: just like in 2000.

I took almost 2 years of Senate Hearings to build enough of a case to get Nixon to resign, but he did. :evilgrin:This time we have a LOT more info, evidence, and we have the DU and the INTERNET. True, it did make the Republipukes VERRRY angry (I think Clinton's Impeachment was retribution for Watergate), but it did make being a Republican something you didn't admit easily for for almost 20 years.:evilgrin:

True, we don't control the Senate this time, but that's why we need you, and everyone else here, to start raising some HELL, and I don't mean just here on DU. I mean, spend a few minutes (O.K., hours) on DU, then start sending email, calling or politely visiting, Senators, Congress People, the MSM News to let them know you're mad as Hell,:mad: and you want them to DO something about it.

Election Reform matters! As a Democrat in Georgia, my Vote has been ignored in 2 National elections! (2002 and 2004) :argh:In 2002 I lost my Democratic Senator, Max Cleland, My new Democratic House Representatives who SHOULD have won, got Georgia's first Republican Governor in over 100 years, lost the Democratic Georgia State Senate (went from 2/3 Democrats to 51/49 split)to Republican control. :wtf:

In 2004, we lost the 2/3 majority Democratic Georgia House to another 51/49 Republican split and lost my Second Democratic Senator (sort of, Zell was a DINO), and still didn't beat my weak Repub House Rep. either.:shrug:

How did this all happen? Because Georgia was the first State to go ALL DIEbold AccuVote TS (TS is for paperless Touch Screen)in 2002 and Diebold even counts the Georgia vote too. Karl Rove is (was, I hope) using Georgia as a test bed.:grr:

So Quit ye Bitchin' and Help us (me) here in Georgia and Ohio, or we are going to lose ALL the swing states next time. :pals: