There is an ugly side to this election

[brindis_desala]

I have not wanted to bring this up but since the Cleveland papers are reporting this it's time to face a few ugly facts. These are DEMOCRATIC controlled precincts where this type of fraud occurred.
<snippet>
"There was no distinction between precincts," said Katie Daley, an observer for the Democratic Party who spent Election Day at the voting place, Benedictine High School. "Voters were being told to go to any machine that was open."
The newspaper reported the problems arose because candidate names were in different positions on the ballot in different precincts. A person's punch-card ballot would be misread if he voted in the wrong precinct and the card was then read on his or her home precinct's machine.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=6&u=/ap/20041210/ap_on_el_ge/voting_problems

[Pirate Smile]

1. It is like the friggin butterfly ballot.

[wrate]

24. It's the lack of a national voting set of standards that is causing

this. And, some people are taking advantage. Katherine Blackwell did in Ohio exactly like Katherine Harris did in Florida four years ago. There was plenty of warning yet nobody at the DLC cared.

[EMunster]

2. and all mistakes still broke for Bush? n/t

[berni_mccoy]

4. They may have been dem. controlled... but...

It was the BOE that setup the ballots... and likely (I'm assuming) did not inform/educate the local precincts on the ballot system... allowing them to make mistakes.

[libertypirate]

6. Give that man a cigar!

[brindis_desala]

7. it's not like Florida- both parties sit on the Ohio BOE

[Chili]

9. yes...

...and the members of the Boards of Election were appointed by (druuuuuuuuumroll)....

Blackwell.

[momzno1]

10. head of RNC in Ohio on Cuyahoga BOE

Richard Bennett --I am sure he was appointed by Katherine Blackwell

[Karenca]

5. Yes, the votes went to b*sh--

from the article:

<<<<< Because most of the problems occurred in heavily Democratic precincts, the errors seem to have cost votes for Kerry, the newspaper reported.

[Warpy]

8. They did and the DLC allowed it to happen

The warnings were there. The early reports of registration fraud were there, as were the reports of inadequate numbers of voting booths in Democratic precincts. The reports of O'Dell's bravado in promising Ohio to Bush were there, as was the information of just who exactly it is that controls all the voting machines in the country.

The Democratic Party just let it all slide. There have been no lawsuits or formal challenges since then.

One might think they are much more comfortable having the pubbies in power and being shut out of government as long as they get their rich man's tax cuts.

[driver8]

26. Exactly...is there one mistake that went for Kerry?? n/t

[Clark2008]

28. Bush IS a mistake

eom

[tridim]

3. So, if Bush/Cheney was on the same spot on the two different ballots

(because they are the incumbent.. I think that's the law) and Kerry/Edwards shifted with other candidates from precinct to precinct it could easily cause Kerry votes to be shifted to a third party.. Which is apparently exactly what happened.

Do I have this correct?

[MarkusQ]

12. The incumbent stands still???

The incumbent is always in the same place but the others are randomized?
Do you have a source for that? It sounds darned odd/suspicious. If true, do we know who decided it would be that way?

--MarkusQ

[LisaL]

11. Because those are democratic precincts, Kerry is the one

who lost votes, if someone wanted to vote for Kerry and voted third party instead.
Geez!:spank:

[americanwhothinks]

13. I was a poll watcher, and believe me, it doesn't matter what party you

represent, doesn't matter what your intentions are, if the system is set up so that errors will be made, the "Democratic judge"-- an ordinary person who, from what I observed, may not have ANY idea what is going on on election day-- will be as likely to support erroneous voting practices, as likely to offer misinformation, as the "Republican judge.."

Even the "Democratic Supvervisor," I'd wager, may unwittingly promote a Republican agenda-- without realizing it!!

[Eric J in MN]

14. Republican Ken Blackwell is responsible

for a system of 2 or 3 precincts in a single room, which causes confusion.

He's the Secretary of State.

[Wordie]

15. Each voter should receive a notice in the mail w/precinct location.

That would make things MUCH easier, imho. Then, people wouldn't have problems on voting day (this has happened to me, too). What could be the objection to such a system. It could also act as an early warning: if you didn't get the notice, you would know there was a problem with your registration. I'm not saying either, that you would need the notice to vote, just that it could act as a helpful informational system.

[Eric J in MN]

17. The people were in the right room, they just

put their punchcard into the wrong machine, having been mis-instructed.

But yes, people should be sent literature with their polling location.

[Wordie]

29. Oh, I know they were in the right room and I am so angry about that!

That's why I think something printed with the polling place right on it is the way to go. And if there was more than one polling place in a location, there could be BIG signs saying which polling place was which.

I just can't believe that Blackwell could get away with an interpretation that said someone in the right room could still be considered as not having shown up in the right polling place. It's completely unacceptable.

(edited for grammar)

[k8conant]

16. This is EXACTLY what we figured in Cuyahoga

and it doesn't matter if it was fraud or incompetence--EITHER one invalidates the election. Time to revote on paper!

[jamboi]

18. Doesn't matter which party committed fraud, lets investigate.Maybe Republi

cans will get into it if they have some incentive. :-)

[mdb]

19. If the question has not been asked yet I'd like to know if ...

(that is if anyone knows) whether these ballots are going to be counted as valid? The voters intent was obvious, yet there was a mix-up within the building.

[mdb]

20. Another thought on this.

What is it going to matter if a machine recount is done? The machine is just going to read the same mix-up.

[roseBudd]

21. The democratic precincts were worked by elderly dems

I would vote for incompetence and poor training over fraud.

[brindis_desala]

23. that's missing the point

seniors are ubiquitous and precincts in the same room are NOT unusual. My NY district does the same thing. It is the Democratic Party's responsibility to let the captains know what ballot goes with what machine.

[mdb]

22. It's just confusion having two or more precincts within one room.

Sounds like a way to deliberately suppress voters.

[lonestarnot]

25. You don't have to be in the county to flip the votes...

you don't have to be in the state, for that matter you don't even have to be in the country.

[brindis_desala]

27. these were punch card ballots not touchscreens

[IndyPriest]

32. Punch card ballots are not

any more secure than any other kind. Their totals are relayed to the same hackable tabulation computers.

[roseBudd]

33. But even punch cards are tabulated by machines that use proprietary

software. The asuumption is that punch card tabulation software programmers won't attempt fraud because punch cards are evidence. In 2004 in OH some may have decided it was worth the risk of being caught.

[lonestarnot]

34. But Optical Scanners supplied by ES & S and Diebold Counted em

[dewaldd]

30. they aren't democratic controlled

Elections are all run by a mix of democrats and republicans.

And Democrats have really screwed things up. I spent Nov. 1 trying to undo the damage St. Louis' Democratic congressman's office did when his office called up Democrats and gave them the wrong polling places. They did more damage than the Republicans could have hoped to do.

[brindis_desala]

31. that's the point...these were heavily Democratic precincts.

there is an ugly pattern here (not just OHIO) after Florida 2000 this was not supposed to happen. Michael Vu, Cuyahoga County's election director, is a Democrat.