The problem with recounts.

[Old and In the Way]

I believe the election was gamed. We may even prove this in the recount of Florida. But overturning the results will only convince the other side that they are the ones that got screwed this time. Sad to say, neither Bush nor Kerry will be considered legitimate by a significant segment of the voting population and we will remain a divided nation.

So what's the solution? I propose a nuetral organization, perhaps an internationally recognized group of people, who can conduct an extensive voter survey in selected contested precincts in battleground states. The results of the poll would be via affidavit. All voters who registered and voted on Election Day would be encouraged to participate and attest to their vote.

If the results match with the actual results, we can at least respect that Bush won the election rightfully. If the results contradict the actual vote, a new Election should be called, this time using paper and pen to record and count the results.

[seriousstan]

1. I, for one, would not participate. I believe in the secret ballot.

I do not think I am alone in this belief. That is also why I have little faith in exit polls.

[Old and In the Way]

4. That's what the Republicans count on.

They own the machines and they control the vote process. Keeping your vote secret helps them to make it happen. If we have the guts to make our vote known....that'd ruin everything for the Republicans.

[lenidog]

9. I have never had any faith in exit polls

I mean what you walk up to someone outside of the poll and ask them how they vote? How the hell can you claim that is scientific? How do you get a proper sample? How can you tell if they are a Republican, Dem, Green or Communist to get the proper sample. That is probably why the people who have run the exit polls for years have always told the media to take them with a grain of salt. Especially since they were never designed to judge who is winning but actually for topics rather than candidates.

[genieroze]

15. Funny exit polls were pretty accurate until Bushco 2000. eom

[berniew1]

18. If enough real fraud is found then most of the public will accept results

[lenidog]

27. True

But has the nation EVER been as polarized since Bush started to run?

[Darkhawk32]

2. Frankly, I have no caring for what the Repukes think.....

Their countless number of unspeakable acts over the last four years have taken any respect for the Republican party I ever had.

If the recounts showed that Kerry won, then I'd say.... "Tough. Get over it." No re-vote, absolutely not. If they had been more forthcoming as a constituency, then I'd say yes. But their attitudes have been of condoning and covering-up said fraud, so f-em.

[kuozzman]

3. I'll be posting a lot of info supporting your conclusion shortly

I can't believe some of the stuff I've found. I'm almost done getting it together.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Understand your point.

But if we can prove fraud in selected precincts, I want to revote everywhere so we can prove we have the overwhelming majority. It's all about driving a mandate for change in a Republican controlled Congress.

[Darkhawk32]

6. True... I see your point.

But man, I can't believe how many people are so blinded by the scandalous repuke leadership.

[RevCheesehead]

7. I don't agree about remaining "a divided nation" under Kerry.

I think he'd gain instant credibility in reaching out to the world's leaders to mend fences that were destroyed by the shrub.

I'd also feel a hell of a lot better with some attempts at healthcare reform, as well as the commitment to leave Social Security alone.

But, maybe that's just me.

Ya know how shrub kept saying "I'm a uniter, not a divider?" That was one of his "projected" statements that told the truth about Kerry.

[Old and In the Way]

17. If he was elected President and a real poll was conducted, I'd bet

60% would be extremely relieved that he is in charge.

Funny that we haven't seen a major polling conducted asking "who did you vote for"....I wonder why?

[lenidog]

8. the problem with a recount is

that the same people who stole the election are probably going to do the recount. Of course we are going to see a shift in votes up or down but in the end the result is going to be the same. Also if the people who stole the election on a national level are smart enough to do it then do you think they are going to leave the evidence around for people to find in a recount. If you are going to spend the money, time and resources to steal a presidential election then you are going to do it right.

[lenidog]

10. Question to all. Please Answer

Has anyone ever participated in an exit pole. I have been voting since I was 18 and never been approached what about you?

[Darkhawk32]

11. Nope Never.....

I would gladly answer it if I was approached. I think it'd be neat.

[lenidog]

12. I would too

But I have yet to ever meet a single person who has done so.

[sharman]

13. I've wanted to see this done for a long time

If just for my own peace of mind. Even an informal canvass of a few suspicious precincts. It would really be great if you could get the polling place sign in sheets, so you know who actually voted.

This could be done by or with the help of GOTV groups, who have lists of voters w/ numbers and addresses

First of all, you can ask for the info on a volunteer basis. If only the Dem voters are motivated to respond to the canvass, you might get an idea if Kerry's reported numbers are real or phony.

Second, you could easily ask for the info under penalty of perjury, in the context of a lawsuit, without violating the secret ballot. Get the list of every voter who voted, by getting the precinct sign in sheet. We do require voters to sign up, so that's not secret. Then you make everyone in the group each sign an anonmymous affidavit. Voila, you reproduce the election in that precinct, with the same secrecy as the original election.

[lonestarnot]

21. I seriously like this idea... It is so simple to incorporate into

the process and cheap.

[corbett]

14. Entire System Is Corrupt

You make many valid points but for now, I have to disagree that Kerry will be perceived as equally illegitimate as Bush. There were A LOT more Republicans who voted for Kerry than Democrats who voted for Bush and they were PROMINENT PEOPLE. They know that Kerry is a centrist.

Over the long term, we definitely need voting reform and I like your concepts. However, for purposes of this election, our constitution spells out how it needs to be handled and that's exactly what the GLibs and Kerry campaign are doing.

Eventually, after Kerry has had a term or two in order to clean up Bush's toxic waste spills, we can move past simply having fair and open elections to being a progressive voting nation, including debates which include more than just those whom a corporation decides can participate, but the time for that is not December of 2004.

[googly]

16. This is NOT legal because the votes had to be exercised on

1st tuesday in november per US Constitution. News and issues change with time, and the revote now would not be identical to how people felt on november 2nd. Does not have a chinaman's chance in SCOTUS.

[Old and In the Way]

20. Is it legal to steal elections?

If fraud is proven, all bets are off. One precedent will surely lead to many others.

[googly]

23. Nope, that is not legal either

If fraud is proven before acceptance by congress and inauguration, then courts can overturn the election. After that, only congress has the authority to impeach and remove a sitting president. The constitution specifically takes away that power from courts.

[zonmoy]

19. why not

just have the UN run our elections instead of the corrupt politicians we have here.

[mbee]

22. Bush did not win and Democrats need to count the votes and send

Kerry to the White House.

[Old and In the Way]

24. If the votes are there to be counted.........

[3 DanO]

25. Conduct the canvas just like an election...

I've mentioned this in a couple of other threads since the election. If you want to get a true comparison of voter intent verses the election results you could canvas an entire precinct using a secret ballot for the poll. You would first need to get the voter information for the election. Where each person voted needs to be entered on the ballot by the poll taker so the votes can be separated to match the categories of the official count. Then the voter can fill in how they voted and deposit the ballot in a locked ballot box. The box should be opened and the votes counted in public with the results released immediately just like what should have been done in the real election.

[Old and In the Way]

28. A nuetral group, maybe League of Women Voters, could run this.

Thing is, both Republicans and Democrats need totrust our electoral system.

Republicans should be more than happy to have this rerun.....it would put an end to all the carping because they know that this would prove the original results....right? :-)

[jamboi]

26. Not a bad idea. n/t