We are losing in the Court of Public Opinion

[joeunderdog]

The illegal Blackwell lockdown, the statistically-impossible voting irregularities and the unconscionable conflicts of interest between the voting machine companies, the Republicans and the Secretary of State...why do we have to find out about them in little-known newspapers, DU or a blog? The Conyers hearing for members of Congress, the OH recount and the impending Arnebeck lawsuit have barely been blips on the screen in MSM. It's shocking.

I'm sick of reading about major news stories like the illegal lockdown on a blog or Green County Gazette. The fact is, the RW will get away with screwing us in this election by any means--legal or illegal--if there is not massive public scrutiny and emotional groundswell. Consequently, the courts will have no pressure NOT to continue to politicize their decsions about voting problems. We will lose every case, regardless of merits, without public outcry. And unless a Big Gun steps up and makes a stink about these problems, nothing will ever get "scandalized" and things will continue to get minimalized.

Big Politician Screaming + Scandal = MSM News.

But we have no Big Politician Screaming. Nobody with a true voice has stepped up--Kennedy, Moore, Clinton, or JFK--so the story has gotten zero traction. Vote fraud has been successfully marginalized to being glitches, quirks and other cute mishaps, and this fact has been met with SILENT APPROVAL by the only people who could force MSM to deal with it.

If Kerry's playing it for 2008, then he's an idiot. He'll be bagging groceries by then after Bush finishes dismantling this country. If he looks the other way on Blackwell's misdeeds here and now, then when BushCo becomes the law, he shouldn't complain later when he's required to bow to the King.

Bottom line is, the time is NOW for our leaders to speak. If they don't do some squaking and holding Blackwell's feet to the fire, then this story will be buried before the work week starts. The Arnebeck lawsuit will be called a nuisance complaint, the objections to the lawlessness in OH will be forever reduced to sour grapes conspiracy theories and Chimp will cruise into the WH.

I have believed Kerry is playing coy, along with the other Dem Big Guns, simply because the collective Silence Is Deafening. To me, this silence means one of two things:
*they are organizing a carefully thought out, powerful legal response to the voter fraud and illegal elections practices of the 2004 Presidential Election, OR
*they are as partners in crime with the MSM and BushCo in this scandal to end all scandals.

For me, I think we can wait no longer. We will know the answer within 48 hours what place our Dem leaders will have in history.

[jamboi]

1. Yes, we're definitely struggling. n/t

[jamboi]

32. On the other hand there are some positive signs in MSM. n/t

[berniew1]

47. Problem is the public has no idea what happened and whats going on

Little major media coverage and what there is isn't well done. How to get the word out. Does anyone know how to contact Jon Stewart?

[ClassWarrior]

2. With all due respect to you and your ironic handle...

...if you'd like us to help you cheer up, please just ask. Compassion is one of the underlying principles here at DU, and I know hundreds of DUers who'd be glad to help.

However, if you're not interested in that, and you're just here to condemn and spread gloom, I respectfully request that you take it elsewhere. Thank you.

NGU.

[BlueCentrist]

4. Applausing Wildly

Thank you!!Go DUers!!!

[joeunderdog]

7. You're whistling past the graveyard.

I am no gloom and doom-er. I'm simply dealing with the FACT that we have no traction in the media, and without it, we can't win.

I keep waiting for the calvalry and I feel time is running out. I donate, write LTE's and read every day. I reserve the right to post about my sense of urgency that we have come this far without making much progress in the American conscience.

Compassion and cheer won't beat these criminals.

[ClassWarrior]

11. So why are you telling US??

As far as I know, there are no Congresspeople, network executives, or newspaper publishers who post here.

I do, however, know that all a post like yours can do is hurt morale amongst the people who are here. And so I'm not whistling past anything - I'm simply requesting that, if it isn't your intent to disrupt, please be responsible and moderate your naysaying language.

Thank you.

NGU.

[joeunderdog]

27. Yes, pols, execs and publishers do post here.

And when I get summarily dismissed as a whiner, a hurter of morale and a naysayer--without anyone addressing the facts of my assertion--it's the same treatment I get when people call me a conspiratist and a LW nut without addressing my claims about voter fraud.

I donate to DU, BBV, ACLU and Kerry, amongst others, but I earned the right to post here by being respectful and truthful. And as far as I know, constructive criticism is still welcome. So go ahead--challenge the merits of my post, but please don't tell me to go away because the truth hurts. Pain is a motivator, and it's why I'm still sending LTE's to the deaf ears of newspaper editor.

We can still make OH the turning point of this election, but someone has to step up. That's what I'm saying, right there. And without the Dems we voted for, paid for and advocated for, our most optimistic grassroots campaign can't work. That's just reality. If our leaders do speak up, then I will feel my efforts and donations are not in vein. If not, the damage in the next 4 years will be almost impossible to undo. Like most people here, I'm hopeful that Arnebeck's suit will be the jump start we need. But he simply can't win without the public outcries of our Dem leaders.

[IAMREALITY]

36. We Don't Need To Be Reminded That the Battle is Hard and Uphill

We all fuckin know that already. What we need is words of encouragement, attitudes of who gives a fuck that it's hard and frustrating, what good fight isn't? What we need is to engage in POSITIVE motivation, such as Fight On! We Are Gaining Ground! Never Say Die!

If the battle isn't hard enough to frustrate, hard enough to test limits, challenging enough to seem out of reach at times, than it is a battle most likely not worth fighting.

But DU'rs are filled with courage. They are filled with strength, with conviction, with determination. Their hearts are strong, their resolve stronger, and we will NEVER give up. We will NEVER say die, and we will never let the weak bring down the strong. Nay, we will lift up the weak, we will carry them along, we fight to win, and WIN WE SHALL!

[ClassWarrior]

41. If you really believe that, why are you leading with "we're losers"...

...and not "we can be winners?"

I'm not "telling you to go away because the truth hurts." I'm ASKING you go away IF you're trying pass along the pain, not the truth. Which only you can answer.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

42. By the way, if you "donate to DU," where's your star??

And who are all these pols, execs, and publishers you know are posting here? I've been here a lot longer than you, and I'm not privvy to the inside information you supposedly are. So share... Who are they?

NGU.

[joeunderdog]

46. I have o star because I disagree with the "teir" status here for donors.

I think donors should get no special priv's on the site. Not that it changes any of the facts, but Bev Harris, Congresspeople, Wm Pitt and businesspeople of all types post here. I don't bookmark them, but they're here.

BTW, I'm not the enemy here, so I'm not going to respond to your personal challenges anymore. I'm not challenging your credibility or asking you to go away, and I expect the same treatment.

If our Dem leaders do not lend vocal support to the Arnebeck suit, it won't get off the ground. That's my opinion, and we don't have to agree on it. If you don't feel a sense of ugency about that, so be it. But I feel that we can't wait any longer to make headway on the voter fraud issue. It won't work after Chimp's inauguration or in 2008. The courts will be stacked, the FBI will be completely politicized and Bush's Justice will rule. I don't get this from being Mr. Negativity. I read LBN daily.

Please don't challenge me personally here. If you have material to add, please do so. Otherwise, let's move on.

[ClassWarrior]

50. LOL.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Never Give Up.

[Old and In the Way]

21. Compassion and cheer won't beat these criminals.

But collective grassroots education and outrage can...and will. We've known that the corporate news media is not our friend for years...they are unindicted co-conspirators in their enabling of this criminal enterprise.

[stepnw1f]

34. Go To A Graveyard

and tell that to the vet's families. They love seeing people give up on Democracy while their loved ones sacrifice their lives for it everyday. Democracy doesn't understand defeat.

While your there you can watch the world die and be a flag wearing "zero the American Hero".

[Higans]

14. This is about 06 and 08. for the Children's Children.

This isn't just about this election, It is about the next one too. It's about 06 and 08 and 10. This is about our children's Children. If election reform is not completed No one may ever have the right to vote again.

It's so obvious a cause. we need paper trails and real Auditing. I'm doing this for you and your children. I'm doing this for my birth Mother who I haven't scene since I was born. Thats what this is about.

The truth is this. For the last 3 elections if not more the computer ballot boxes have been rigged. Large scale rigged. If this is not obvious to you, your not paying attention. Even if I can't get a fair game this time, I want a fair game next time. Thousands of people around the world are protesting.

the constitution grants All Humans the right to vote. not just the two or three who control the central tabulators. The reason it was not fixed in 04 after 2000 is because no one said anything after 2000. The only way it will ever get fixed by 06 and 08 is if we stand up and say something NOW.

Do the people of this country ever want their right to vote? I'm starting to wonder. So far Crowds are showing up in the 100's at multiple state capitals. I'm going now. I hope all the peace loving people join me there.

I :heart U Human Race. Happy Holidays.

[Hamoth]

3. You forgot another possibility

Hubris.

[VTGold]

5. I heard a journalist say on a radio show that there are ...

...MSM people working on investigative pieces.

That takes time - got to nail down everything.

I wish I could remember who it was and which show but I remember thinking that it must be so if that person said it. If I think who it was I'll post again.

We feel alone in this because we knew out of the gate or well before that something was terribly wrong.

We've lived and breathed it for 40+ days - seems like forever.

We'll have more company soon - please God....

[BeFree]

6. Another 48 hours?

Well, ok. I mean, what choice do we have? We are a minority of those watching the majorettes merrily twirling their batons. I guess if they can continue twirling for another 48 hours, let's let 'em.

But the encore presentation had better be more like a hard hitting football game than the sideline exposition we are having to live through.

I can hardly wait.

[Straight Shooter]

8. Blecchhh.

I don't need this on Sunday morning.

Come to think of it, I don't need it any day of the week.

[rucky]

9. Either option is not exactly a trust-building exercise.

there's one power missing in all of this, and this is we-the-people.

I, for one, am sick and tired of feeling powerless over what our elites have decided to do for for/against us.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[senseandsensibility]

12. No we are not LOSING in the court of public opinion

We have lost public opinion. It was lost during the election of 2000, when we rolled over. Now it appears that the Dems are struggling to find new ways to debase themselves so that the loss becomes permanent. Sorry for the negative post, but it's how I feel.

[ClassWarrior]

15. We're not losing in the court of public opinion.

We're losing in the court of elite opinion. And those elites - Radical Rightwingers all - aren't allowing our message to get to the public.

Nonetheless, my motto remains...

Never Give Up.

[neversaynever]

13. My Sentiments EXACTLY....

And I recently wrote the DNC basically telling them to shit or blow up the pot!

I *hope* this silence is strategic: it used to be in this country that the "customer was king" (and we are the "customers" of the MSM)-- but NOW, celebs -- big names -- etc. are the only ones with the power to get attention and affect change. We could be marching by the millions and it would do ABSOLUTELY no good. A bunch of black baptists trying to ban gay marriage has a better shot than we do of getting any sort of media attention. Shit, if we could have gotten Scott Peterson to make a statement, we'd be in better shape. Maybe Michael Moore should go on nat'l tv in his new suit and have a wardrobe malfunction: stick his dick out and say "Suck it BUSH" or something.


Protests are not going to do it -- look at the masses and masses who turned out to protest the Iraq invasion -- No one fucking cares what large masses of people think (actually, frontal nudity might do it: maybe we should all protest in the NUDE?????? Would that get some attention?)-- but, with all due respect to those currently organizing the 51 Capitol marches and other events -- when only 30 - 300 - 1000 people show up at these events, it might actually work to our DISADVANTAGE -- that is, really making it look like a "fringe" movement consisting of a few disgruntled stragglers. Protests worked in the 60s and 70s, maybe even into the 80s, but they are absolutely pointless in this country now. The anti-war protests should have made that clear to anyone who's paying attention.

Litigation is our only hope, and major media and political figures need to come out fighting NOW. They need to draw national attention to the litigation that is already underway.

i'm still hoping tomorrow will be the day I get to wake up from my nightmare.

And that hope rests on my belief that such celeb figures as Moore, Stewart, Maher, Springsteen were truly, truly as passionate as I am about removing the felony criminals from office -- and that they have been acting strategically, perhaps in concert with DNC and other political figures...dunno. All we can do is hope. But, if this wasn't strategy, then we are truly, truly FUCKED beyond the point of no return. And you're right: Kerry will be bagging groceries by 2008--and he'll be one of the lucky ones--the rest of us will be .... god don't get me started.

Scarey shit. :scared:

[RevCheesehead]

16. I agree that the MSM has not been helpful, but..

why do you want something done in 24-48 hours?

From what I can tell, we are still in the realm of gathering evidence. There's nothing to convict anyone of, beyond a reasonable doubt.

With all due respect, your post sort of reminds me of the pressure the politicians and other authorities put on the D.A. to "get something out there, make an arrest, and do it fast." But any decent DA knows that you MUST HAVE CONVINCING EVIDENCE.

If your end-result goal is to get this overturned before shrub is inaugurated, you may be disappointed. But my goal, and I believe the goal of many, is to get at the root of the problem and expose the FRAUD which has occurred. That may take a year or longer. But if you try to prosecute your case too early, you're more likely to get a "not guilty" verdict...and quite frankly, that WILL hurt us, rather than help us.

[neversaynever]

26. it's been a little more than 24-48 hours

it's been well over a month. Furthermore, there is enough evidence to "suggest" that thorough investigation is merited. Even if intentional fraud and/or manipulation from within the mind of the machine cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt, these two maps alone provide sufficient evidence to merit the claim that the "will of the people" has NOT been reflected in the results of this election.
http://www.votersunite.org/info/mapflyerohio2004.htm
http://www.votersunite.org/info/mapflyer2004.htm

The election was so riddled with problems that it cannot be said to reflect the will of the people; it should therefore NOT be certified until the investigations have been completed.

[merh]

17. Would you like some cheese with your whine?

Hey, guess what, WE NEVER HAD THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION. How can you lose what you never held? What all of the naysayers tend to overlook is that Kerry/Edwards won more votes than any dem ticket in history and more than any presidential candidate in history (with the exception of the theiving bastard) and they did it without a fair media. No support of the media, minimal coverage.

[RevCheesehead]

20. Ha! I had to look twice - I thought you were talking to me!!

I will admit that there have been times when certain people have been willing to serve up my head on a platter...but I always had thought of it as a "John the Baptist" thing, not hors d'oeuvres!

[ClassWarrior]

22. LOL... That scene in - which movie was it? - really freaked me out...

...when I was a kid. Was it "The Greatest Story Ever Told?"

NGU.

[merh]

23. hee, hee -- Heavens no, I have enjoyed reading

your posts. :thumbsup:
I like the John the Baptist reference, but I wouldn't do that to you, but if you whine, I will offer you cheese or maybe pigs in the blanket!

[RevCheesehead]

24. Obviously, I've already got the cheese. I suggest crackers.

Triscuit is my favorite.

[merh]

25. I just happen to have a couple of boxes on hand!

:silly:

[KaryninMiami]

18. I agree and I am sick of being told, "there's nothing we can do".

We do need a voice a big voice and we need it NOW. We need union organizers to demand answers. We need the NAACP to step up and start making noise about the millions of minorities who were disenfranchised not only in Ohio but around the country as well. WE need someone on the "inside" who is fed up with the Bush policies to blow the whistle on what he or she knows. We need student groups to start screaming- they were disenfranchised in huge numbers. Remember Vote or Die? Well they did vote and now they might die because a draft is on the way. Jesse Jackson is a great start but he's not taken seriously. Where is Al Gore? Where is Howard Dean? Where is Jimmy Carter? Is tomorrow the day that Michael Moore unveils his famous "Ohio and Florida Voting Videos?" What the hell is going on here? Did they put something in the water?

I wish I didn't agree so much with what what you are saying and wish we could collectively come up with an immediate answer. Or that someone who might be looking in, might provide us with some real facts about what is "really going on" (Option 1 of your 2 options).
Because if not, you are indeed correct. The Arnebeck case will be treated as a conspiracy theory nuisance. Conyers and his team will be ignored (again) and receive no national coverage and we will be anointing a man as President who did not win the election (again).

It's all very frustrating and only adds credibility to the countless responses I receive from friends and family who say "you might be right about the fraud but there's nothing we can do about it. Move on with your life, get over it and face the facts- we have 4 more years of Bush".

I'm growing weary of ranting. Costa Rica is looking better and better every day.

[genieroze]

19. I agree but I will never shut up!

The MSM won't be able to block out rioting in the streets. Sooner or later these pigs gotta squeal. People can only take being pissed on for so long.

[pacalo]

28. Please watch "Going Upriver" again...

& then ask yourself if John Kerry would become a partner in crime with BushCo. He's certainly not a partner in crime with the MSN; he majorly shunned the media by delivering his first public statement after the election to his supporters through the internet. But I agree that something has to be said now about the election scam.

I do have faith that Arnebeck's lawsuit will start a fire in the media. And most importantly, Arnebeck considers Clint Curtis a legitimate witness to the corruption; he mentioned him on the Randi Rhodes show, giving a little background on him before, unfortunately, the conversation was changed to another direction by Randi Rhodes. Arnebeck mentioned that Clint Curtis has been trying to get his story out for a long time but no one would listen. Well, Arnebeck has provided the golden opportunity for Curtis to testify in filing this lawsuit in Ohio. Like Arnebeck said, "If the truth won’t float in America, then this isn’t America."

Let's see what happens tomorrow in Ohio.

[New Earth]

31. Yes, Going Upriver

enhanced my faith in John Kerry. great movie.

[IndyPriest]

29. Public doesn't have an opinion, yet -

So we haven't lost it. They don't have a clue what's going on. But they will!

[IowaGuy]

33. Agreed...the media is in some ways,

like a large herd of dumb buffalo. They all wander aimlessly in the same general direction for awhile and then occasionally all stampede wildly in another direction. It's not really under anybodies control, but it can be influenced by persistent and committed people. All during the campaign, there was a great deal of talk amongst the Kerry supporters about *'s faux support of the troops. The * supporters took one vote of Kerry's out of context and turned it around on him about voting "against supporting the troops". The bad news for Kerry and us (and our soldiers) is we were not succesful in combating that perception. The bad news for the * team is now the debate is framed (ironically, succesfully by them) and they have to answer for their own actions. The media is now, finally all over the * administration about their lack of planning, and proper support for the troops. Rather than fight amongst ourselves and cry about the major media not saying everything we want them to say when we say it...we need to band together and keep the pressure on....the truh always comes out, even if it's not as soon as we would like or need.

[IndyPriest]

38. "herd of dumb buffalo" - good image! n/t

[Iceburg]

30. Who ever heard of Rosa Parks before Dec 1, 1955 ?

Did Rosa Parks wait for the MSM or an "elected" official to arrive before refusing to give up her seat to a white man forty years ago on December 1, 1955?

If you can distinguish right from wrong, just from unjust, then you, like Rosa Parks, have the ability to lead.

Drop your fearball and chain -- you are not alone.

[bemis12]

35. We need to..

.... find a way to tie it into the Scott Peterson case. Then we're guaranteed 24/7 coverage.

[pointsoflight]

37. It's easy to forget how far we've come.

Remember that just two weeks ago, there wasn't even a PEEP in MSM outlets. Zilch. Absolutely nothing. Then Jesse Jackson joined the cause and there was a trickle. Then Conyers set up last week's hearings and AP wrote an article on them that was picked up by over 100 newspapers nationwide. It's by no means dominated the media, but the word is getting out.

Not only that, several weeks ago any mention of voting irregularities were accompanied by references to "conspiracy theories" and the "parallel universe of the internet." The reports in the last week treat the irregularities very seriously and make no snide comments along those lines.

In short, the momentum is very much increasing, not decreasing. The coverage is no doubt short of what we would like, but I would hardly characterize the pattern as us "losing in the court of public opinion." In fact, I would say that we are winning in the court of public opinion in that we're seeing more interest, more coverage, and more serious treatment of the issues. It's just that not enough people are hearing the message to form an opinion. Hopefully we'll have a breakthrough that'll bring the issues into the homes of everyone.

[femme.democratique]

39. I certainly hope we get some answers....eom

[forgethell]

40. My question is

WHY haven't our leaders spoken up? Do THEY think we lost an honest election? Are they intimidated, corrupt? Is there some secret plan that they are operating under? WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH OUR "LEADERS"? Kennedy has nothing to lose, he's rich as filth and in an impregnable seat in the Senate. Where is his voice? Kerry's chance at President is NOW!! Why doesn't he speak up? Edwards will be back to being a trial lawyer; I can understand why he doesn't say anything. That pays a lot better than Vice-President. What the Hell is going on?

[madison2000]

43. Do you think the courts will respond in accordance with

the degree of importance which the MSM gives to this story? Aren't they supposed to decide according to the laws?

I understand that public opinion matters, but we are talking about fraud here. Breaking lots of laws. The cases should be decided on the basis of laws, not public opinion. In Florida in 2000 the cases were decided on a partisan basis, all the way up to the Supreme Court. That should be of more concern than public opinion. How are the Ohio courts stacked?

We have to go with what we believe to be true, regardless of whether the MSM thinks its important enough to write about tomorrow or a week from tomorrow or never.

[RaulVB]

44. I agree to some extent...

One Senator needs to step up ASAP and join this effort.

Is of strategic importance right now.

[bones_7672]

49. There is a HUGE difference between "needs" and "will". n/t

[Pooka Fey]

45. I searched through the NY Times

today for one little mention of the Conyers hearings last Wednesday. Nothing. Nada. The Congressional judiciary committee holds hearings about election fraud, and it's not newsworthy. That was not an omission, rather it was a political statement to the progressives from our corporately owned government/media. I agree with you. I've been waiting and waiting for the outrage from the big players, and well,...where is it?

[SmokingJacket]

48. On the contrary.

At last, at LAST there is some trickle of information making onto MSM.

I'm more upbeat than ever.

[Razorback_Democrat]

51. A third possibility

after talking to my parents about this, both vote Democratic, I was initially perplexed at their reaction.

Basically it was "even if their was fraud, there's nothing that can be done to change it".

I don't believe that personally, but it did get me to thinking about it some more.

Here's my thoughts about the apparent apathy or lack of interest.

Maybe it is really just FEAR! Because if there is fraud, then there will have to be a big cry from the people to change it! I think people are afraid of rocking the boat these days.

What is the average American willing to do to preserve democracy in America?

Maybe there isn't really a lockdown on the MSM as much as there is a realization that to break this story, really break it, would mean that people would have to a) act and change; or b) blow it off.

[mrdmk]

52. Here is some more shit for the fan

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0412/S00154.htm

New Study: More Absentee Votes than Voters in Ohio

This is not coming from some R/W site or mainstream. Our effort needs to be grassroots and only grassroots. We are on are own, get use to it and there will be results if we keep up the pressure. Write to congress, the media (ha, ha!) and tell friends, family and acquaintances. Most of all keep yourself informed!

[Razorback_Democrat]

53. Yes, there was a thread about this earlier

The scope of "error" in this election is so massive that I think that it overwhelms people looking at it.

I know I feel like every time I turn around there's some other place to look for fraud


Unbelievable in this great country