Kerry is "in"

[myschkin]

"On Sunday, John Kerry spoke with Rev. Jesse Jackson and urged him to take an more active role in investigating the irregularities and ensuring a fair and impartial recount. Kerry said there were three areas of inquiry that should be addressed: 92,000 ballots that recorded no vote for president; qualifying and counting provisional ballots; and supported an independent analysis of the software and set-up of the optical scan voting machines."


http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/985

Interesting article...

[myschkin]

1. Also:

"In one exit poll affidavit, Jonathan David Simon, an expert witness, notes that at 12:53 a.m. the exit polls altered the projected winner – even though the same number of votes had been cast. "Although each update reports the same number of respondents (872), the reported results differ significantly, with the latter (12:53 a.m.) exit poll results apparently having been brought into congruence with the tabulated vote results."

!!!

[Quakerfriend]

2. I wonder if they've

got screen shots of this!

[Oilwellian]

5. Someone on DU caught it on CNN that evening

can't recall who it was though. I'd love to get a copy of it if anyone has it.

[thedutch]

9. I have the screencaptures

but I can't figure out how to post them. Anyways...

Ohio exit poll 12:21AM
1,963 respondents
male(47%)(923): B 49%(452) K 51%(471)
female(53%)(1,040): B 47%(489) K 53%(551)

Ohio exit poll 1:41AM
2,020 respondents
male(47%)(949): B 52(493)% K 47%(446)
female(53%)(1,071): B 50%(536) K 50%(536)

[BR_Parkway]

18. So we're supposed to believe that 25 LESS men and 15 LESS

women responded Kerry, when they changed the results? And this is after they added in another 57 people?

[electropop]

50. I'll be happy to post 'em on my web site

Do you have gif's jpeg's, html? Whatever, I can post 'em. You do realize that people have been looking for these screen shots for a month?

[Old and In the Way]

55. See my post #15

they are right next door! :-)

[electropop]

57. great, got it! n/t

[Old and In the Way]

15. Here it is-

From SoCal's post here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1290765&mesg_id=1295180&page=



<>

Kerry up 2 among men, up 6 among women.

At 1:41am they changed the results to favor Bush:

<>

That 2.8% increase in samples would have had to be 100% for Bush to close the gap....

[renate]

32. this is INCREDIBLE

I know these numbers have been posted before, but it's never been as crystal clear as this. Seeing it in glorious Technicolor is absolutely freaking astonishing.

Shouldn't one of CNN's competitors be frothing at the mouth to publish these screenshots to embarrass them? (What am I saying--telling the truth would be violating orders from the White House.)

[bunny planet]

45. Have you sent these to Kerry's people. Do you have a video copy of it?

[myschkin]

3. Another quote:

"He cites many other examples, but summarizes his findings: "It is my professional opinion that John Kerry's margins of victory were wrongly reduced by 22,000 votes in Cleveland, by 17,000 votes in Columbus, and by as many as 7,000 votes in Toledo. It is my further professional opinion that John Kerry's margins of defeat in Warren, Butler, and Clermont Counties were inflated by as many as 37,000 votes in the aggregate, and in Miami County by as many as 6,000 votes."

!!!!!!

[shack]

13. "another quote"

This means there's only a 30,000 vote difference; this should get it into the recount percentage, so let the recount begin!

[newyawker99]

52. Hi shack!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[propagandafreegal]

4. John Kerry needs to take an active role. Puhleese nm

[pbartch]

6. election malfeasance and manipulation in the 2004 vote

this sucks. bush, cheney.........all criminal Republicans should be jailed.

==================================================================
"to hold a rare field hearing into election malfeasance and manipulation in the 2004 vote."

[PaganPreacher]

7. Lead by proxy- now THERE'S a leadership style!

Maybe John Kerry can get Jesse Jackson to stand in for him in the White House, if the Ohio electoral votes are overturned.


The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[myschkin]

11. *laugh*

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PaganPreacher]

17. You're right, and I stand corrected.

I see now Kerry's grand strategy of having Jesse Jackson take the lead, and take all of the flak. After all, the commander never walks point, right? It's always some expendable grunt who has to walk point, and get his ass shot.

If he makes it through this Last Patrol, I think Jesse would make an excellent Presidential Proxy! He will have earned it.

Strategy my ass, merh. "Politics is perception", and my perception of Kerry is that he not acting like a leader.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

21. Thanks.

Apparently the pagan preacher is unaware of how the game has to be played today. Kerry gets no benefit from the media....his only hope was to work behind the scene and get irrefutable evidence of fraud. I suspect that he's gotten the evidence he needs as he is now starting to go public with his case to count all the votes. The pagan preacher was never a federal prosecutor so he probably doesn't understand that you can't prosecute a case without evidence. But the case would never have gone to trial because Republicans would win the pre-trail motions in the court of public opinion..... because they get to create the public opinion.

[merh]

24. And I find it a blessing that pagan preacher was never a leader of

any military forces during WWII, he would have tipped the enemy off that those tanks were simply cut outs and not real! LOL

Some people just don't know enough about the subject before they offer their ignorant and naive opinions.

[PaganPreacher]

28. So, Jesse is Kerry's wooden tank?

You show great respect for the Reverend Jackson, merh.


The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[seito]

37. I think merh was alluding

to the fact that you don't broadcast your troop strength and movement to the enemy.

[PaganPreacher]

38. If that is the case, then he/she did so, poorly.

Even given your charitable interpretation of merh's post, it still characterized Rev. Jackson as Sen. Kerry's "wooden tank."

The wooden tank is not used in the combat zone. It projects the illusion of strength, but can inflict no damage on the enemy.

Since the original post talked about Sen. Kerry's request that Rev. Jackson "take point" on the recount on Kerry's behalf, and since we are reading and discussing it on this public forum, the fair analogy would be to say that we all already know the tank is made of wood. If we know, then Senator Kerry's opponents know.

At this point, the fair question is, "is there really a tank at all?"

We are in the endgame of this election. This is not the time for a wooden tank, nor a Trojan horse. This is the time for Senator Kerry to act like a man who wants to be President, and will fight for it- for himself and for the millions of people who believe in him.

If he fails to act like a leader now, he fails. 2008 is a pipe dream if he shows weakness in 2004.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[PaganPreacher]

26. Less "apparent" than you think, Old and in the Way.

You presume too much when you presume ignorance on my part, Old one. I have been around the block a few times myself.

It is precisely because I DO know how the system works that I think Senator Kerry has charted the course of his own failure.

For now, we are talking about presidential politics here, not a federal prosecution. At this stage of the games, political rules still apply. Public perception is important. If Senator Kerry is acting like a prosecutor, then he is not acting like a man who wants to be President.

Since Election Day, Senator Kerry has shown weakness on two critical occasions. First, he conceded too quickly. Second, he asked Jesse Jackson to take the lead on investigating election fraud, and we all heard about it. Neither action is a confidence-builder for the American public.

Even if Jesse Jackson, the Greens, and the Libertarians succeed in overturning the Ohio results, we still have a man who appears to be weak, and unwilling to stand up and take what he believes he has earned. I don't think the majority of Americans will support a weak man for the presidency, even if we pity him.

If John Kerry doesn't want it bad enough to stand up for himself, then he shouldn't expect honest, hard-working Democrats to do the work for him. A leader must lead, and that doesn't mean having someone else walk point for him.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[PaganPreacher]

41. You're right. I have never been a federal prosecutor.

But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[PaganPreacher]

23. Hmmmm...."investigate in secret?"

If he is having Jesse Jackson ask the questions for him, and we all know about it, then it isn't a secret, is it?

Do you really want a President who conducts "secret investigations", and has other people take the heat for him? Is that what a principled leader would do? It appears that you wish for behavior from Senator Kerry that you would not tolerate from President Bush.

Let me also point out that Senator Kerry is not the prosecutor in this matter. He is an interested party, or at least he should be one, since he is the one who would gain the Presidency.

If Jesse shows the leadership and guts to turn the election around, then he should be the one to put his hand on the Bible next month.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PaganPreacher]

30. Another mistaken assumption on your part, merh

W is not "my man."

I am a small "L" libertarian, who believes in civil liberties (ALL of them) and votes accordingly. Sometimes I vote for a Democratic candidate, sometimes a Libertarian, and sometimes a Republican. Sometimes, I don't vote for any of them.

Your attempt to deflect our discussion away from Senator Kerry's "secret investigation" failed, although it was a good effort. Let's try to stay focused. OK?

You failed to disprove the past point that you want Senator Kerry to conduct secret investigations, instead saying that "W does it". Does that mean that you wish for behavior in your candidate that you reject in your opponent's?

Your contention that Senator Kerry is using "quiet scouts or spies" doesn't pass the smell test. The Rev. Jackson can not be called a "quiet spy" under any circumstances. He is a very loud, public presence. Removing "quiet spy" from the table, it leaves Rev. Jackson in the unenviable positions of being a proxy, a decoy, or a sacrificial goat.

A leader must lead; not to impress his enemies, but to rally and fortify the courage of his own army. Every day, more DUers, and more good Democrats, leave the SS Kerry for the Greens, for another third party, or to leave the political system altogether.

How many voters can the party lose? How many is too many?

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[merh]

33. .

:boring:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[angrydemocrat]

56. Kerry Supporters Don't Turn The Other Cheek

Kerry is a person of intelligence who can see all sides of an issue and incorporate all available data before making a decision. Yes he conceded. But Kerry was just like many of us he knew in his gut that this election was stolen. At the time he wasn't sure what hell happen no more than we did. He and his lawyers found out that the provisional ballots alone would not give him enough to win Ohio. But Kerry was like the rest of us and new the results were bullshit. But he still had to find out what happen and how. You don't just run out on a stage and start screaming they cheated, they cheated!

Kerry was between a rock and a hard place. He knew as much as we did that he won the election but he had to prove it. With no evidence at the time and all he had at had was the same bullshit the rest of the world was seeing and that was a bunch of fuckin bullshit all pointing to a Bush win what the hell else could he do at the time. If you remember correctly the media and repukes had already started running there mouth about him giving it up because he lost, remember the limos that was ready the night before for there stupid ass party? So Kerry made the decision to go ahead with the concession speech and then they could start looking into what the hell happen and how. Kerry knew he could unconcede if he could prove he won.

Had Kerry not handled it the way he did, you wouldn't have come as far as we have in all the efforts to bring these bastards down. Yes it had become obvious that fraud was what effected the outcome of this election as well as voter intimadation. But saying it was fraud is one thing proving it is another. This fight must and will be continued to bring these bastards downs.

Had Kerry run out on stage screaming this election was stolen and guns a blazing as so many thought he should have done we would only be fighting off the attacks of the media and wingnuts and at the same time would have the wingnuts getting in the way of the investigations trying to cover there asses. The meadia and wingnuts would be screaming that Kerry and the democrats were nothing but a bunch of sore losers that put its selfish wants before the security of this country and troops, Kerry and the democrats would do anything to degrade the president that even though we have men and women at war fighting for democracy they are trying to destroy it, blah blah blah! The bullshit these bastards would spew would be unreal!

Kerry by doing it the way he did waged a smarter war against these bastards. By him staying out of the spotlight light and working with the Glibs and his lawyers the media and repugs have laughed it off like made it out to be a bunch of internet conspiresy nuts trying to stir up trouble. All the while Kerry, Jackson, Glibs, and whoever else they have involved have been getting a case together that will bring these bastards down. Now it is getting to the point Kerry has to start letting it be known that he is involved. They just havn't figured out to what extent. And already look at the fucked up remarks and how they are now try to discredit everything where before they were making jokes. Why? the Glibs aren't the threat to them Kerry is!

The Glibs are a threat in the sense of helping with the fraud and intimadation, but Kerry could find a way to strip their sorry asses of the White House and Kerry is a far bigger threat in getting the fraud proved than if the Glibs are on there own in this. So if they know Kerry is fully vested you can damn well believe it will be a all out war. And it will be before it is over. But Kerry is smart enough to know that before he comes out with his guns a blazing, ready to take down the enemy he has to have enough ammo so that the enemy has no chance of firing back.

In a dangerous epoch, made more so by a chimp who see's the world in stark black and white because simplicity polls better and fits into sound bites, John Kerry may seem out of place. But he is in fact, in exactly the right place at the right time.

[Peace Patriot]

29. Oranges and apples...

We're talking about oranges and apples here: On the one hand, investigation and legal prosecution, which do in fact require secrecy at times; and on the other hand, politics--the art of persuasion, issues of public opinion and perception.

Jesse Jackson is out front, persuading. Others are gathering evidence, investigating, putting together legal briefs, etc. John Kerry has evidently been involved of the latter (the legal stuff) all along, and now has come forward with a specific, official request for independent auditors regarding a list of irregularities, sent to 88 Ohio Boards of Election.

By coming forward with this official request, Kerry has now entered a more public phase of involvement.

Pagan Preacher, I don't think it's possible to judge Kerry at this point. I really don't. It may very well be part of an overall strategy to have John Conyers and Jesse Jackson (and Arnebeck and the others) lead the charge, while Kerry lays back in order to keep the opposition (dangerous criminals, all) off balance. We simply can't be sure.

It may be that Kerry is a rattlesnake, coiling up to strike (some evidence for this). It may be that he's playing both sides of the game (some past history of this, f.i., on the Iraq war)--in this case, trying to keep the Left happy by seeming to participate, but not really intending to follow through, with the odds so stacked against us.

I have no particular loyalty to Kerry--although there are some things in his background that I find very admirable. I have no criticism whatsoever of his campaign, because I'm convinced that he won! (What's to criticize?) And I really, really can't judge him at the moment. I really can't! He is in an extremely dicey and dangerous position. If he is involved in the rattlesnake strategy--which is a good possibility, and which is arguably the wisest course at this point--then he can't very well trumpet his views to you and me and the rest of the American public, can he?

I am withholding judgment. My deadline is Jan. 6. If Kerry doesn't sign the black House members' petition to the Senate not to certify Ohio (and maybe also FLA), or signal for others to do so, then we will know what to think of Kerry's leadership, and of the Dem Party in general. (I will be re-registering Green that day, if they don't act.)

One thing I CAN judge, though, is the general, catastrophic failure of the Democratic leadership to prevent this obviously fraudulent election system from being put into place (Bush "Pioneers" owning the SECRET source code for all the vote tabulation machines--I mean, come on!). At the very least, they should have screamed bloody murder about it, and warned voters. They didn't.

And here we are. They owe us an apology. I wish they would just issue that apology--and then vigorously jump into the investigation.

[Old and In the Way]

42. Well stated.

Will Kerry turn it around? I really don't know. But He'd have been crucified if he tried to fight this publically before he had the facts. The media is the unindicted co-conspirator in this heist. Anyone watching CNN/MSNBC/Fox before and after the election could see the story was already written. Watching Bill Schneider explaining the polls on 11/3 was about the funniest thing I've ever seen. MS-NBC had that great poll analyst Ron Silver giving us his righteous analysis of the results. It was such a joke.

Anyway, I think Kerry nuetralized the effect of the media pretty well while the Ohio election fraud evidence was being gathered and digested. This tact also got us activated....in 2000 people sat on the sidelines while Gore fought his legal fight. Perhaps Kerry perceived lack of action helped to motivate the rank-and-file to get involved.

I agree, Kerry won. He ran an outstanding campaign. He kicked Bush's ass in the debates and he had a coherent vision that contrasted with Republican Oil and War. I am more disappointed with the DNC's pre-election efforts to prepare for an Ohio heist....I think they should have been better prepared in making sure the process was transparent and freep-proof.

[myschkin]

31. Hey

I think it's clever how Kerry acts...

If you search a "strong leader" (acting like Mark Wahlberg in "Planet of the apes" and always running the world into a catastrophy) vote Bush...

Sometime it's better to think about.

[seito]

36. I am sure that very soon

things will look a lot different to you and the rest of America.

JMHO

[politicasista]

22. A good combination!

:)

[corbett]

34. It Worked For KKKarl Rove

How often during the campaign did KKKarl Rove give interviews? Nearly never! It worked BRILLIANTLY for him. Reverend Jackson can do more to unify the civil rights and Democratic elements of this effort than Kerry can right now. Jesse is a wonderful choice and I look forward to hearing him refer to Medgar Evers and Selma as often as he can.

[PaganPreacher]

39. Rove? He wasn't the candidate.

"It worked for Rove" is a non-sequitur. Rove was not the candidate.

Rove did not have to act like he wanted to be President.

W had to act like he wanted it.
Kerry had to act like he wanted it.
Nader had to act like he wanted it.
Badnarek had to act like he wanted it.
Cobb had to act like he wanted it.

So, of those five men, who is not acting like he wants to be President? Who was a day late and a dollar short in Ohio? Who is letting the grunts walk point while he stays "in the rear with the gear?"

At this point, the struggle does not need someone to "unify the civil rights and Democratic elements of this effort." Today, with the Electoral College going to W, the struggle needs the Democratic Party candidate acting like he earned the presidency, he expects the presidency, and that he will knock W off the podium and TAKE the Presidency on January 20, 2005.

Anything less is failure.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[txindy]

44. That's easy.

"Who is letting the grunts walk point while he stays "in the rear with the gear?"

That would be Junior, but he isn't giving the grunts the gear. Ever. How many soldiers died today because he lied to put them there, lied to keep them there, and lied so he wouldn't have to properly equip them? B*sh is treading a fine line when it comes to the troops. Loyalty to one's country is far removed from loyalty to a fraudulent liar that deliberately endangers them for his own enrichment.

If you're genuinely interested in the future of elections, but have zero interest (as repeatedly expressed) in John Kerry and his 2004 campaign, here's your forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=108

Knock yourself out.

[PaganPreacher]

46. Losing focus....

We were talking about post-election strategy, and public perception of Senator Kerry as weak because he is not standing up and being a leader.

We weren't talking about military equipment or logisitical problems in the Iraqi theater.

Your post is, as we say, "off-topic." It's not nice to change the subject in mid-conversation!

Have another cup of coffee. It's early yet.

If you want to start a thread about military equipment, I will be happy to talk with you about it there.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[txindy]

47. You asked a question.

I replied. It was a slam dunk when talking about who has let down "the grunts." That would be the Chickenhawk-and-Thief.

The "public perception of Sen. Kerry" is your perception. Don't speak for the public. You can't. You're not talking about post-election strategy. You're talking about your personal opinion and what should happen now. That's not what this particular forum is for. Go to the other forum talking about the future. It's not nice to take up bandwidth in the wrong forum.

[PaganPreacher]

49. Just checked the top of the page....

and found that I was staying on-topic. Clarity and focus are good things- I think I'll continue to practice them.

You want me to move to another forum. Segregation is not a progressive value, and I reject it. I like it here; I think I'll stay. Nice friendly people, and the coffee is good. Maybe I'll buy a few acres and build a house, raise some Great Danes and put in an herb garden.

txindy, I can speak for "the public" with the same authority as anyone here. Since none of us have omniscience, anything written by any of us is personal perception or opinion.

Public opinion is not found in the insular talk of DU, but in the larger arena of public communication, and personal contact with people with different politics and philosophies.

I pay attention to the media, both MSM and alternative. I read blogs. I listen to talk radio, at both ends of the political spectrum (and there is an entire forest of talkers to the right of Limbaugh, and to the left of Randi Rhodes.)

I talk politics with friends as varied as a pretty Communist vegan lady (who wrote in Che Guevera's name in November), to a dedicated Green woman who held her nose and voted for Senator Kerry, to a great bunch of Pagan people who have all sorts of different political views (ranging from the practical to the fanciful), to Christian fundamentalists of both parties. I talk to old vets at the Legion hall, when I go down there for a beer (it's a fair bet that I am the only Pagan veteran in the place, but I haven't asked.)

I listen to what they have to say, whether I agree with them or not. Their opinions form part of my perception of "public opinion." My BS detector filters out the silly stuff, and does so effectively.

I trust my perception of "public opinion."

Until Senator Kerry acts like a man who really wants to be President, I will continue to hold the opinion that he doesn't want it badly enough, and I will express that opinion. You are free to disagree, and we are free to discuss it.

You may change my mind, with strong evidence; feel free to offer it. I won't presume to say that I could change yours.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[txindy]

58. Interesting

I'm amazed you're bothering with DU. There's so much work to be done in Ohio. They're getting close. But, then, you already know that.

Your sig line says a great deal about you. Too bad your other remarks aren't as pithy.

[googly]

43. Kick

[intheflow]

8. Thanks for posting.

Can't read it n full now, but will when I get back from work.

[Darkhawk32]

10. The man doesn't want to be "Gored"....

He's giving nudges here and there to further the cause when things start to stall.

I guarantee you if Cobb/Badnarik are not allowed to do the recount properly, then Kerry WILL step it directly.

[sepia_steel]

14. I agree

I believe Kerry has complete knowledge of what he's doing and I still trust him.

[Tangledog]

35. Exactly

By saying as little as possible, John Kerry is making it difficult for even the most obtuse MSM to portray this as a personal vendetta against the Great Imposter, or as 2000 Lite.

What's needed as the vote fraud piles up is not to make it a crime against John Kerry, but instead to make it a crime against our democracy, our liberties, the Constitution, and all those other things that Right-wing blowhards claim to cherish.

[rodeodance]

53. Right---

[bunny planet]

16. I would add scrutiny of absentee ballots to this list, otherwise sounds

like Senator Kerry is on the case.

[RaulVB]

19. Kick

[Quakerfriend]

27. I agree

But, I do think he should step into the fray REAL soon. Without the MSM's help, people won't understand what's been going on until it's too late IMO. I'd like to see all the Kerry supporters who are unaware of what's happening to find out before we get to Jan.

[myschkin]

48. The media

are really opportunistic. What do they say, when Kerry goes on board of the ship?

[GoSolar]

51. Kick!

:kick:

[rodeodance]

54. any follow-up on this?