How will Arnebeck sway Ohio Supreme Court if he gives no evidence??

[bones_7672]

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041214/NEWS09/412140393

"The lawsuit alleges - without offering evidence - that votes were taken away from Mr. Kerry's column and added to Mr. Bush's. It refers to a "pattern of vote fraud and discrimination," problems with voting machines around the state, and asserts that electronic voting machines could have been hacked."

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. delete

[bones_7672]

3. How? He's never met with the Supreme Court! n/t

[jamboi]

85. He will meet w/ them and provide statistical prima facie evidence. No prob

lem.

[schawkfan]

11. It's been all bluster

Now we know that his fraud lawsuit has been all bluster. There is no evidence, just theories. Sure the vote CAN be hacked (we are told), but no one has come forward saying that it WAS altered. Is it really possible that what would be the biggest fraud in the history of the country could be pulled off without one whistle blower? Hell, we live in a country where a famous actress cannot be pregnant for one day before the word hits the newspaper. Now we are to believe the Bushites rigged the election and are able to keep all that are in the know quiet about it. I find it all very hard to believe. On to 2008.

[genieroze]

14. On to 2008? Afraid not. This crap stops NOW! eom

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[schawkfan]

19. Message board cop

Sorry Razorback. I guess you decide what gets posted on this message board. I will run things by you before making any other comments.

[berniew1]

23. Arnebeck presented a lot of documentation. And much of it has been verifie

Arnebeck presented a lot of documentation; and much of it has been verified. The switching of votes in counties like Cuyahoga has been documented and admitted, with a "reason" the "errors" were made given.
And fraud is being found already in the counties that the documentation points to, like Greene, Lucas, Perry, Trumbull, Cuyahoga, etc. Even before the official recount was allowed to begin because of Blackwell's lockdown of the evidence for the last 4 weeks.

The documentation of massive degree of systematic minority and student voters is also well documented, which is both against the law and unconstitutional. He has a strong case in my opinion. Unless one isn't concerned about whether elections are democratic and fair.

[CatWoman]

37. heh

did you examine the font size of the document as well?

what about the ledding?

[Razorback_Democrat]

49. LOL - maybe it had superscript but was typed on an old Selectric n/t

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Razorback_Democrat]

73. I guess you can post something like that

but my messages get deleted

so flame on

[buddysmellgood]

24. There is a whistleblower. Cobb talked about it yesterday at the Conyers

hearing. Plus, statistical evidence shows probable cause to investigate.

[New Earth]

42. LOL

nice try

[lonestarnot]

43. the bluster buster....what crap!

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Razorback_Democrat]

50. Why don't you move on to 2008? n/t

[Benhurst]

57. Yeah, and we also live in a country where a president was

progressively suffering from Alzheimer's for at least 7 of his 8 years in office (obviously so during his last debate with Mondale) and the American people were kept in the dark about. It all depends on who's ox is being gored and what the MSM wants exposed.

[bush_is_wacko]

70. Don't forget...

That while that same President was recovering from a bullet that almost took his life, *Sr. was holding secret meetings about supplying arms to the very man we just removed from power. Not to mention the fact taht another famous * was going to have dinner w/ the brother of the man that shot that President on the very night of the shooting! All of this information has become very hard to come by in the last few years but it is still out there!

Why will no network report these connections? Why did none of you tell the American public why Kerry didn’t vote for the Persian Gulf War? Why did none of you tell Americans why Kerry didn’t vote for the Iraq War? If you were Kerry and you had all this information about the Bush family would you risk letting any of them trying to start another war. The Bush family does war for profit. All of you have this information at your disposal, but none of you will report it. Why?

http://www.tarpley.net/bush18.htm
Oliver North’s illegal activities were set in motion while our real President Ronald Reagan was recovering from an assassination attempt on his life. I have sometimes wondered whether Reagan’s disease was legitimate or a product of guilt over what he very likely would have seen as betrayal by his second-in command. Just pure speculation of course, but…

“Bush's position as chief of all covert action and de facto head of U.S. intelligence--in a sense, the acting President--was formalized in a secret memorandum. The memo explained that `` National Security Decision Directive 3, Crisis Management, establishes the Special Situation Group (SSG), chaired by the Vice President. The SSG is charged ... with formulating plans in anticipation of crises. '' It is most astonishing that, in all of the reports, articles and books about the Iran-Contra covert actions, the existence of Bush's SSG has received no significant attention. Yet its importance in the management of those covert actions is obvious and unmistakable, as soon as an investigative light is thrown upon it.”

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/chap_02.htm
“North was indicted in March 1988 on 16 Iran/contra charges, along with Poindexter, retired U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Richard V. Secord and Albert Hakim in a 23-count indictment.”

“It was clear that North's job at the NSC was to implement two of the President's most important policy goals: the sustenance of the contras despite the Boland prohibition on U.S. aid, and the release of American hostages being held by pro-Iranian terrorists in Beirut. It was also clear that North worked tirelessly in pursuit of these goals.”

“North was indicted in March 1988 on 16 Iran/contra charges, along with Poindexter, retired U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Richard V. Secord and Albert Hakim in a 23-count indictment.”

“-- Colorado beer magnate Joseph Coors, after testifying about his $65,000 payment to NEPL which was unlawfully solicited as a tax-deductible contribution, stepped down from the witness chair and shook hands with North in full view of the jury.”

GWB just tried unsuccessfully to get this man elected into office as Senator in Colorado.

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/chap_02.htm
This site has a picture of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein in 1983. He was then special envoy for President Reagan. The Bush family has ties to Saddam Hussein. George Bush Sr. helped supply arms to Saddam Hussein.
“The U.S. was officially neutral regarding the Iran-Iraq war, and claimed that it armed neither side. Iran depended on U.S.-origin weapons, however, and sought them from Israel, Europe, Asia, and South America. Iraq started the war with a large Soviet-supplied arsenal, but needed additional weaponry as the conflict wore on.”
“ The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of al-Qaeda. “
“Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states, and assistance through loan programs from the U.S. The White House and State Department pressured the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing, to enhance its credit standing and enable it to obtain loans from other international financial institutions.”
“The Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) was one of a series of crises during an era of upheaval in the Middle East”

This is the war in which Saddam Hussein murdered from what I have heard more than 300, 000 men women and children. These are the crimes that George Bush Jr. wants to hold Saddam Hussein accountable for the crimes Saddam Hussein committed while his father was illegally supplying him with the money, weapons and power to do so. Saddam Hussein knows too much. George bush Jr. was worried he would eventually tell the world the whole story and that is why he is behind bars today and will be handed over to the Iraqi government while we are still involved in the running of that government. Saddam Hussein will be tried, convicted, and executed by that government so that he cannot tell the world what part George Bush Senior and Oliver North knew. When the evangelical Christians put George W. Bush in office, they assured that George Bush Sr. Donald Rumsfeld, Oliver North, and a whole lot of other Republican big wigs currently sitting in the White House will never be convicted of the crimes thy committed against 300,000 Iranian men, women and children. It was our nations contribution to the holocaust in Iraq.


http://www.webcom.com/pinknoiz/covert/contracoke.html
Guess who was the head of the committee that investigated George Bush Sr.?

“The initial Committee investigation into the international drug trade, which began in April, 1986, focused on allegations that Senator John F. Kerry had received of illegal gun-running and narcotics trafficking associated with the Contra war against Nicaragua.”

I’ve heard a lot of republicans harping on Kerry for voting against the Persian Gulf War. If you knew all of this information about a standing President, plus you had information suggesting that that Presidents father was never held accountable for aiding and abetting the enemy during WWII and his father was never held accountable for his crimes during WW I, would you vote to send another Bush to war and another?

John Kerry has been railroaded. He is a good man, with good intentions. He was trying to help this nation and somehow along the line the fourth Bush heir to war has managed to erase all this information from the minds of this Nation. What have you done?

[electropop]

62. We live in a country where the uterus of a movie star is more

important than the survival of our nation, as far as the media are concerned. We have had whistle blowers, hard evidence, dramatic maps of suppression efferts, and more. You'd know this if you weren't watching Faux News.

[truehawk]

56. All Arnbeck need show is a basis for Reasonable Suspicion

If there is a basis for Reasonable Suspicion, and there is a ton of data that looks like Aurthor Anderson did the election, then there is a basis for DISCOVERY!!!!

The Good old Freedom of Information Act SHOULD have let us see pretty much everything by now, but Katherin Stealwell is really good about chooseing the laws he is going to obey, so to get the hard goods and to get into the innards of the machines, tabulator programs and such that are supposedly "propritery", we need Discovery to develop the evidence.

We can get it anyway, but there are no questions about the chain of custody is they are obtained by discovery rather than a wistle blower.

[On the Road]

68. Reasonable Suspicion! Discovery!

Those are the words we should all be repeating.

Not proof. Of course he doesn't have proof. You don't need it at this point in the proceedings.

[bemis12]

2. I didn't realize

That he had asked the Court to declare Kerry the winner. That's obviously a non-starter without some proof of fraud. No court is going to just declare someone who, for now, has fewer votes the winner. That would be as much a subversion of Democarcy as anything the Bush clan is accused of.

Recount. Look for the votes. If we find enough for Kerry, it's still going to be a tough battle given the makeup of the courts that we'd have to go thru. If there's not enough for Kerry, then it's obviously not going to change.

[KansDem]

34. "No court is going to just declare someone who,..."

...for now, has fewer votes the winner."

Why does "US Supreme Court" and "Bush v Gore" suddenly pop into my head?

I agree though, we need a bit more proof before proceeding to the courts.

I would like to see Kerry win after all this, however, if anything, these revelations will damage BushCo so much that for the next four years ANYTHING they say or do will be tainted with the stain of fraud and illegitimacy.

[righteous1]

38. For all practical puposes the courts are out of this thing the

only thing the courts can do now is indict specific individuals for specific crimes. Their jusidiction as it relates to the election ended when the slate of electors voted yesterday

[bemis12]

83. I don't know, it shouldn't

When the SC stopped the counting of the Florida votes, Bush had more votes. So that arguement is just bogus.

[electropop]

63. If they had suppressed every single Democratic voter

would we be able to prove fraud? Kerry obviously wouldn't have more votes, but suppression is fraud too.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Nevermind. I thought this was his testimony before the Conyers forum.

I wasn't paying attention. ;) :hi: Now, I'll go read the article.

[righteous1]

5. It is academic now, the Ohio Supreme Court would have

had to act prior to the slate of electors voting. They now have no jurisdiction in the matter

[EMunster]

9. Don't know about that...

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/nation/10412809.htm?1c
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0412140339dec14,1,6578823.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

If the court decides to hear the challenge, it can declare a new winner or throw out the results.

[prairierose]

87. Not true....

If the recount finds more votes for Kerry & he then wins, the other electors will meet & cast their votes which will then be forwarded to Congress.

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. The Curtis testimony is pretty good evidence

that the machines CAN be hacked. He developed a program to make it possible. Now, if only he can stay alive. :scared:

[EMunster]

7. self deleted

[righteous1]

10. Afraid not, look up the statutes. The Ohio Supreme Court

had to act prior to the electors voting. Those results are presently on their way to the US Congressional archivist. They lost their power over the election when the slate of electors committed. You might go to Moritzlaw.com and look at the Ohio statutes that apply to the elections as I did

[EMunster]

13. link?

[righteous1]

22. link

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/analysis/041130a.htm

[EMunster]

21. I had thought so too, then I read on another thread a brilliant...

possibility that warmed my heart...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=152723&mesg_id=153357&page=

[MrUnderhill]

27. Yeah... this was debated in 2000 re: Florida

At best (at this point) a SECOND slate of electors could be sent to Congress and it would be up to THEM to decide which one to accept.


Care to place odds on how that would turn out???

[righteous1]

28. Yea, I posted that thread as well, also came from Moritzlaw n/t

[Samantha]

97. But we now know that would have been unconstitutional

The Florida legislature threatened many things in 2000 that were unconstitutional. We know this from David Boies book.

If the State of Ohio wished to change its way of choosing its electors it would have had to have done so BEFORE the election, not after. Currently, its state constitution says its slate of electors will be chosen by the outcome of the popular vote. If the popular vote as a result of a recount, or some proof of fraud, swings in the other direction, by virtue of the law the state legislature has already written, the State of Ohio MUST allow a Democratic slate of electors to cast their votes. Regardless of what Ohio law might state, it does not supersede the U.S. Constitution. We will hear a lot of bullshit from the Republicans, we must do our own research. I am going to go with Boies on this....

[Pseudofool]

8. There is evidence, no smoking gun

In this case, "without offering evidence" means Arnebeck doesn't have a smoking gun to cement his claim. He does, as the article goes on to list, have evidence in the form of statistical analysis, testimony from disenfranchized voters, and probably some witnesses.

This is not to say that I think Arnebeck's case stands a chance, rather this is a formality to document all evidence in a nonpartisan proceeding. They can appeal if more witnesses or that smoking gun surfaces.

We have until Jan 6. No rush.

[righteous1]

16. I for the life of me just cannot understand

why Arnebeck waited so long to submit his brief to the SC. He had to know that 2 hours before the electors voted would not allow the Court time to act before the deal was sealed. I am sorry but this just does not add up

[Straight Shooter]

51. Does anyone have access to the docket of the Ohio SC?

That may explain it. Filing the case doesn't guarantee a swift hearing, if there is a backlog.

[bones_7672]

17. But there is NO WAY the Ohio Supreme Court will EVEN HEAR this

without concrete evidence that proves this beyond a doubt. I expect the Supreme Court will dismiss hearing this with one of those two-sentence press releases.

[righteous1]

18. They will not hear it and will justify their decision

based on the issue being "moot"

[EMunster]

25. sadly, I think you're right...

[righteous1]

26. Yea, I think so, and that is why I am so perplexed over

the reasoning of Arnebeck holding off to the last minute to submit his brief to the SC. Just doesn't make any sense

[Snivi Yllom]

33. bingo

There is a big difference between speculative evidence and hard proof. The Ohio Supreme Court would only consider taking up the case unless there was 'hard proof' IMO.

[EMunster]

12. No..."without offering evidence" was a snarky reporter comment....

Put another way, the reporter didn't ask about the evidence.

An editor elsewhere -- with a little-less attitude and agenda -- put it this way:

Without listing specific evidence, the complaint alleges...

because...

If the court decides to hear the challenge, it can declare a new winner or throw out the results.

You see how this goes? You file a suit, and if the court judges it substantial enough, they'll "hear" it, including the evidence.


link:
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/nation/10412809.htm?1c

[MrUnderhill]

29. Well, you can actually "blame Clinton" for that one.

One of the things that always upset me was the number of times he said there was "no evidence of wrongdoing". That usage of the word seems to have stuck.

In truth... there was PLENTY of "evidence" of wrongdoing.... just NO "PROOF" of wrongdoing.

There's a difference.


There is PLENTY of "evidence" that something went dreadfully wrong with this election... but no "proof" at this point.

[CatWoman]

40. poor clinton

he can't get a fucking break.

rather, no evidence of a fucking break.

[Straight Shooter]

53. "blame Clinton" for that one. Huh???

That's a common phrase for the defense.

Blame Clinton? Puh-leeze.

[MrUnderhill]

58. "Blame"

for reporters mis-stating lack of absolute proof as "lack of evidence".

[ValleyGirl]

32. Exactly. Doesn't the court have to agree to a case

before an attorney presents evidence? I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds right to me.

Not sure what the point was of making this its own thread.

[MrUnderhill]

36. Yes and no.

A court can't accept a case based soley on the seriousness of the charges... The court has to have SOMETHING to go on.

[berniew1]

20. Arnebeck presented a lot of documentation; and much of it has been verifie

Arnebeck presented a lot of documentation; and much of it has been verified. The switching of votes in counties like Cuyahoga has been documented and admitted, with a "reason" the "errors" were made given.
And fraud is being found already in the counties that the documentation points to, like Greene, Lucas, Perry, Trumbull, Cuyahoga, etc. Even before the official recount was allowed to begin because of Blackwell's lockdown of the evidence for the last 4 weeks.

[bones_7672]

78. Admitted? By whom, and with what kind of documentation to take to

the Supreme Court? I don't think I've heard this yet.

[middler]

30. What part don't we understand?

I use to live in Ohio, and now reside in Michigan. Listen very carefully. Ohio is a very conservative state, ala Indiana. Our chances of ever winning Ohio are very slim. This election may have been our last best chance, as our Union base diminishes every year, and the affluent suburbs continue to grow.

Why exactly are we so shocked that * "may" have received more votes than Kerry? Putting all our energies into an unwinnable voter fraud effort, delays the ultimate introspection that must occur for us to move forward. The sad realty is that unless we get our collective sh*t together we will watch more states, such as Michigan, Wisconsin, or Pennsylvania turn blue. We only won Wisconsin by 11,000 votes? Do you think we will be so fortunate next time? The red state's rate of population growth is 3.5 times that of the blue's. You feel crappy about losing by 3 million votes, just think how we will feel if they win by 10 million in 2008.

Don't get me wrong, we can turn this thing around. But first, we need to get over this election. The longer we dwell on the inevitable, the less time we have to work on the ideological war that must now be waged to win back the hearts and minds of our red bretheren.

Gentleman, start your flaming!

[EMunster]

35. You mean "move on" right? The part you don't understand: Bush Lost

"Ohio is a very conservative state, ala Indiana. Our chances of ever winning Ohio are very slim."

Leaving aside the "our" part, Ohioans are also smart, ala Pennsylvania, and they certainly see George Bush is ruining the country; so he lost, and had to undertake massive fraud to make it appear otherwise.

Let me know what part you don't understand.

[lonestarnot]

41. I don't know if I agree that they are smart. BOE let the techi

in to do his deeds on the machine w/o confrontation or police intervention. I think they may not be so bright bulbs. I would have JYD's tied to doorknobs of every machine door!

[middler]

44. Okee Dokee

I think Bush won (sacrilege!) I followed the RealPolitics polls everyday and saw that Bush held a poll consensus lead all the way through to election day. This isn't rocket science. It is extremely difficult to unseat an incumbent, especially in a time of war. I repeat, Ohio is a very conservative state. Sorry, but that is the truth. You want to live in denial, go ahead. Want some more fodder? I supported Lieberman, and think he was actually electable.

[righteous1]

48. Youll be happy to know that bush is going to offer Lman Sec

of HS, whether he takes it or not is another story

[WiseFawn]

66. okee dokee?

I can't even express how tired I am of being dismissed, discounted and slapped in the face. There may be parts of Ohio that are more conservative than others, just as in other states, but let me tell you, we came out full force to vote that sorry little man out. I saw first hand what happened in Ohio. I am in the middle of it all. I gave my testimony on behalf of myself and a large number of people that others were so determined to keep from voting they threw everything they had at us. We had the flyers sending us to the wrong places, the lack of machines, the two precincts in one building, the horribly long lines and a sad lack of protection workers. And I will not let it all be for nothing and I will not be dismissed ever again.

[saracat]

96. You will be please to know I told Lieberman what a smuck he was right

to his face! He had the balls to tell us that he didn't read the Patriot Act because it was "too long" and no one could expect him to"! I said it was his job and I damn well expected him to! He is an opportunistic bastard. He is almost as bad as Zell. I am so glad he didn't become VP. JMHO.

[bones_7672]

79. We can say "Bush lost" but

without the kind of evidence that the Supreme Court would need to interfere in the election this is only so much speculation, hearsay and small examples that are incapable of overturning a 118,000 vote victory for GWB.

[Verve]

52. Let's be optimistic middler!

I live in Wisconsin and I take offense to your comment:
"We only won Wisconsin by 11,000 votes?". Yes, WI is a deeply divided state with rural red areas and blue liberal cities and college towns. Yet, even many red counties this time around were deeply divided. In 2000, Gore only won WI by 5000 votes. We actually gained a bit in 2004!

Also,your comment: "But first, we need to get over this election."

We cannot get over the election! If we don't have fair election practices and procedures, WE DO NOT LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! What is wrong with ensuring our democracy?

[fasttense]

60. OK I'll bite or rather flame

If you don't fix the casual disdain for voting accuracy, the intentional manipulation of voting machines, the Jim Crow disenfranchisement, the tens of thousands of vote problems, and remove those people in power who have no qualms about cheating, then you will never, ever, never again have anyone but Repugs in the government.

[Verve]

64. I'm with you fasttense! n/t

[middler]

65. Not buying it.

I have always been a conspiracy skeptic. I just don't think it is reasonable that a conspiracy of this scale could be kept under wraps. I don't believe any of the 9/11 conspiracies either. Perhaps it is because I am Jewish, and the Jews have so often been the victims of these conspiracies. I do believe that the 2000 election was lost because of the butterfly ballots. But that isn't a conspiracy, just plain old incompetence.

Honestly, I am not very optimistic about the Democratic parties chances in 2008. The red states will never support a Hillary, or Kerry, or Edwards. We need to find a moderate southern Democrat. If this is distasteful to you, I think you will find the alternative even more so - 4 more years of neoconic rule.

And so it goes...

[pgh_dem]

74. 4 more years of neocon rule

The point you seem to be missing is that there will be 4 (to infinity) more years of neocon rule regardless.
This election was not prepared for fairly, not conducted fairly, not counted fairly, and therefore not won fairly.
If the thousands of people who left the polls because the lines were WAY too long had voted, if the poll workers had not (intentionally or not) directed people to the wrong polling stations/lost control of the situation so that people were putting ballots into first available boxes, if the machines weren't switching votes from Kerry to Bush or reporting -25 million votes for Kerry or moving his totals to 3rd party candidates, etc etc ... Kerry would have won Ohio, even with his so-called liberalness.
The Dems ran a very good campaign, Kerry won all three debates, they brought out their base in record numbers.
It's not the fault of liberalism, or not kissing the asses of fundamentalists, blah blah.
If the system won't register the votes for your candidates, it doesn't matter who you put up.

[middler]

82. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

There were obvious problems with this election. There always are. There will never be a perfect election process. We know the rules going in and need to maximize our expected outcome based on these rules. I don't believe that "25 million votes for Kerry or moving his totals to 3rd party candidates" actually occurred. Believing in BBV conspiracies marginalizes us to some extent, and I don't think the Democratic party can stand much more marginalization.

How did Clinton win back to back elections in light of this conspiratorial vote stealing machine? He won because he was a moderate southern Democratic and a past Governor to boot.

The republicans want us to keep working the conspiracy angle. They also are hoping Hillary wins our nomination. Dick Morris even predicted that Hillary will most likely be our next President. Do you really think that is what he believes? He said that so that we will think that Hillary can win. I for one am not believing his bullsh*t for a minute. I will repeat once again, if we are serious about taking back the White House, than we better start looking for a southern moderate.

[pgh_dem]

84. points are not BBV conspiracies

-25 million votes in Mahoning County (Youngstown) was reported in latimes on Nov 9
"Based on reports that Dill's organization — Verified Voting.org — has received, one precinct in Youngstown, Ohio, recorded a negative 25 million votes, which was discarded from official results."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1288384#1288444
Check above and related threads on the election night screenshots from SoS websites of Lucas county and others where reports showed Cobb/other 3rd parties with 3000+ votes and Kerry at 0, later 'corrected' to show that Kerry had those votes, Cobb/et al with 0.
Also see current Columbus Dispatch reporting on multiple machines in a single precinct being held responsible for unexplainable hundreds of votes going to Peroutka, likely due to being cast in the wrong box/wrong machine.
This is kind of beside the point though.
You're right there will never be a 'perfect election process', but I'd add that it will never be even close to perfect if the current system isn't exposed as favoring the parties controlling the voting.
Finally, who gives a shit what the Republicans want or don't want us to be doing?

[middler]

88. Sure sounds like BBV to me.

Once again, we are talking about a conspiracy of a grand scale. I will be happy to eat my words, when one credible witness, such as a Diebold employee, turns state's evidence. Until then, we are just spinning our wheels, while the Republicans are working on getting their coveted 65 senator super majority.

"Finally, who gives a shit what the Republicans want or don't want us to be doing?" Well, they are apparently more adept at this whole election thing, so we might want to keep an eye on 'em. When the US auto industry was getting its ass kicked by the Japanese, we didn't ignore them. Instead we studied them and adopted some of their more successful practices.

Conspiracy talk is fun, but at some point we need to get down to business and role up our sleeves.

[pgh_dem]

93. so you're suggesting

That 'we' (and i'm casting a reeeeeeeeeeal wide net here to include you) need to study these methods, and figure out ways to deprive Republicans of their rights to vote? That's all they are adept at. If they hadn't done that, they wouldn't have won in Ohio, and nobody would be yammering on with this 'we need to get in touch with moderate southerners and understand the coming Rapture with them'.
This is not that big of a conspiracy.
This is just a handful of Repub officials depriving minorities of their rights to vote.
The only 'grand scale' conspiracy is the one to ignore this Jim Crow crap in favor of 'moving on', 'healing', or 'gettin them next time'.
And that conspiracy does include many many Democrats, including most of the senators and 'celebrities'.

[middler]

95. We are operating with different basic assumptions.

You must believe that Kerry was victimized by election fraud, because 119,000 votes can't be rationalized any other way. The number is just too large. I think that no substantial proof will ever surface to support this assumption. In the meantime, the red state's population will continue to grow enough that by 2008 the Republicans will not even need to carry Ohio to win the White House. The South added seven electoral votes through population growth between 2000 and 2004. So assuming another seven are added over the next four years (might actually be more based on current population growth rates), and giving Ohio to the Democrats (not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination), the electoral total would be 273 for the neocons and 272 for the Democrats. In 2004 Bush actually received less electoral votes than his percentage of the popular vote, demonstrating the strong relative growth rates of the states he won versus the states he lost.

So assuming that Ohio was rigged, and that this fraud can be fixed by 2008, what of the rest of the red states? Do you seriously think that a candidate from the North East with a progressive voting history can really win down South?

Surely you must see that the South has risen again.

[gassed]

69. Winning Wisconsin by 11,000 votes...

is over twice the votes that Gore beat Bush by in Wisconsin in 2000. I do agree that we may lose Wisconsin in the future, along with Baldwin and Feingold, on account of the state's approved a $13 million contract with Accenture to create a voter registration system for Wisconsin. Accenture's system would also be responsible for making the final tabulation of votes on election day. Sound familiar. Unfortunately, it has been practically impossible to get any worked up about this. When our much loved congresswoman gets beat in her next attempt to be re-elected by some nut bag radio station owner...I don't want to hear any whining.

As it is I hear much indifference from friends. I have tried to convince them that all of their...we will just have to be better organized next time...we will have to re-focus our message next time...we will have to donate more money next time...won't mean a thing. It doesn't matter how much one organizes or how much money one spends when all ones efforts and hard work can be neutralized out of sight of the voting public at the last minute. I don't know why, or how, this is so hard for people to comprehend.

[pgh_dem]

75. Accenture is a spinoff of Arthur Anderson Consulting

of cuddly Enron fame. This probably should be mentioned every time the company's name comes up.
They claim to have operated independently of Anderson since 1989, but have only been doing business independently since...Jan 2001. Imagine that.

[Pepper32]

71. umm?

"The sad realty is that unless we get our collective sh*t together we will watch more states, such as Michigan, Wisconsin, or Pennsylvania turn blue."

Why is this a sad reality, isn't that the goal? We want them blue, don't you?:shrug:

[middler]

80. Good catch.

Must reboot brain now.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. "We"?......... Ohio is a swing state, not a conservative state

Ohio is not that different than Pa. We have gone for Democrats over and over because of the GOTV efforts in Philly, Pit, Scranton/WilkesBarre and Erie. Ohio is not so different. They just needed massive GOTV to win and I believe that this year they accomplished that goal.

Look at Ohio over the last 30 years. When ever there was a reasonable split (except 2000), Ohio went Democratic.

[middler]

91. I'm not sure Ohio is a swing state any longer.

Bush won Ohio in 2000 by 165,000 votes and 2004 by 119,000. 2004 is particularly troubling because of the stagnant economy Ohio has experienced under Bush. The economies of Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania have all performed horribly under the Bush administration, but the voters didn't seem to punish Bush accordingly. Go figure.

[wiggs]

31. lockdown is prima facia (sp) evidence of fraud. period. nt

[lonestarnot]

39. What is status today of suit? Anyone know? Expedited Ruling or anything?

[KyndCulture]

54. Before any flames fly about any of this

Has anyone read of even SEEN the entire lawsuit?

How do we know there is or isn't sufficient evidence. Sounds like pure speculation no matter which side of the argument you enjoin.

I'm waiting to see the lawsuit, because personally I think he's got evidence and plenty of it.

[Razorback_Democrat]

55. Flamers that flame without seeing the suit are like

those gnats you run into when you are riding a bike or running and they get in your teeth and eyes, pesky little things with a purpose that is beyond my understanding.

[righteous1]

61. It all depends on what you want to accomplish with this lawsuit.

People can be indicted, but as far as changing the election results go, the courts are out of it. I will repeat, the courts have no jurisdiction concerning the election results post electoral vote, period. Now if the recount shows that Kerry got more votes in Ohio, a new slate of electors can be submitted by Blackwell to the US Congress and they will vote as to whether to accept or not. This is not conjecture , it's Ohio law as written.

[Shalom]

59. So, Why Haven't We Seen a Publicly-filed Lawsuit Yet ?????????????

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

67. today's other topic

from bones_7672: DU SAYS KERRY LOST, BUSH WON


what's the point, bones?


(edited to change "post" to "topic")

[bones_7672]

81. I was rather curious why an article like that would be posted on DU. nt

[berni_mccoy]

76. Wow, you believe the press before seeing it

with your own eyes?

Check it out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x155528

We WILL WIN THIS!

[Wordie]

77. There's a thread now that has copies of the suit. Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1070494

But better to use the mirror site, provided by electropop later in that thread, as keithjx mentions that would be his preference, due to bandwidth issues.

Here:

http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush1.pdf
http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush2.pdf

[keithjx]

86. Hey

Thanks, Wordie.

Interesting thread people. Please don't forget that the injunction that Arnebeck asks for CAN impact the electors being sent to Congress. It would enjoin them from taking any further action (that's why they are named in the petition and the injunction).

[ClintCooper2003]

89. The massive irregularities are the evidence. n/t

[ClintCooper2003]

90. Additionally, isn't there a discovery phase now? n/t

[pointsoflight]

92. For clarification: Evidence is not needed at this stage!

To plead a case in Federal Court, all that is required is "a short and plain statement of the claim showing that the pleader is entitled to relief." The purpose of a complaint is not to convince the court of your case. It is to state a claim, and to put the Defendant on notice of what you are accusing them of, and what remedy you are seeking from the court.

For more:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/14/151628/87

[bones_7672]

94. But this is a STATE court, not a Federal one.

The State Supreme Court WILL NOT TOUCH THIS without being presented with a mountain of evidence, and if the State Court refuses to hear it I doubt anyone will get an appelate court to hear it.