Warren County 3% Handcount showed no change from original

[lizzieforkerry]

Sorry guys, Warren County won't be handcounted. :cry:

[Goldeneye]

1. What were the original Warren County results?

And what kind of machines did they use?

[shraby]

2. That was the lockdown county on election night

[Brundle_Fly]

8. yeah....

how very convenient.


They are stealing it part two. This batch is tainted regardless, locked down, left unattended....doors unlocks...

so many faults to deal with already
...

bozo's the fix is in.

[berniew1]

107. How was the 3% chosen; the 3% known not to be a problem?

The system in Ohio is not very reliable, but its important given what it is that the 3% sample really be random. Who chose the sample and how, and who verified that it was random. There are some suspected problematic precincts based on analysis of the votes. Doe this mean those can't be looked at?

[lizzieforkerry]

3. Bush got 72% Kerry 28%

This is the county that locked out the press. We used Triad punch card machines

[Florida_Geek]

22. OK punch card machines are not where I expect the fraud

to be. so this is no biggy.

[KittyWampus]

24. Triad? You Mean The Ones Given Bogus Vote Tallies For Recount?

[jamboi]

Your kidding. That looks unreal to me. n/t

[saddemocrat]

69. seriously?

Were there no changes at all?

kris

[AndrewClarke]

27. Arnebeck's complaint . . .

. . . claimed that at least 12,750 votes were switched in Warren County.

[Goldeneye]

28. Crap.

[AndrewClarke]

86. Remember . . .

. . . that just because the hand recount and the machine recount matched in the test precincts, does not mean that these recounts matched the original, official count.

I doubt that the difference will amount to 12750 votes, though.

[oscar111]

118. This is why RE-VOTE shd b our goal, not just recount.

If counting was accurate, then we are losers.

But REVOTE will gather in all the suppressed ethnic votes, and we will surely win. Ethnic, and the long-line fallouts who left, and on and on. Suppressed votes.

NEW ELECTIONS NOW.. our meme from now on.

[New Earth]

4. i don't believe it for a minute

something is fucked up here

[insane_cratic_gal]

7. the whole thing

is f'ed up.. has been since 2000

[Junkdrawer]

10. Fix...In...Link

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=490

[sabra]

5. How do you know this? n/t

[lizzieforkerry]

9. I went down there and asked my friends that were doing the handcount

today. They finished around 1:00 and ran it throught the machines and it all matched perfectly. No one could believe it.

[shoelace414]

14. punchcards matched perfectly?

[lizzieforkerry]

19. Yes, it all matched.

We are now trying to gain access to the discarded provisionals, discarded absentee, overvotes, undervotes and poll books which the Board is deciding on.

[mostly_lurking]

44. Aren't discarded Provisionals and Absentees returned...

... to the sender/voter? How will you gain access to them if they have been returned?

[buddysmellgood]

61. How can they deny access to the poll books? I'm recounting in Van Wert

County on Thursday.

[MrUnderhill]

63. They can't...

It's just that this doesn't mean "any time any place". I doubt you're going to get to do anything with them right away.

[helderheid]

16. perfectly as in EXACTLY?

What are the odds of THAT??

[jamboi]

51. That looks suspicious to me. n/t

[shaggy briard]

59. Question I see in Warren

Is not whether the ballots were counted correctly but whether they were voted by legitimately registered voters or part of an absentee ballot fraud

[lizzieforkerry]

68. That is why we are trying to look at the poll books and absentee.

I think this is where the fraud is also.

[Helga Scow Stern]

87. Is this consistent with what was reported by the witness to Cobb?

Is this kind of fraud possible in Warren County?

[roseBudd]

95. Warren County also was tabulated by Triad GS. 41 counties were

in Ohio were Triad tabulated. The Triad tabulator is called an ElecTab.

[Griffy]

6. it will... AFTER the election... sadly... GRRRR

[liam97]

11. yes

something is very problematic Free Press already reported on Warren County problems

[sabra]

18. link? recount problems?

[libertypirate]

12. Hand counted with the Blackwell Approved...

list of precincts...

Come on folks pay attention...!!!

[Goldeneye]

13. Blackwell picked them?

[libertypirate]

20. Supplied the freaking list...

[Goldeneye]

26. so...he gets three precincts cleaned up and we recount those?

yeah, i guess that makes sense. After all, the purpose is to prove the vote was fair. :(

[texpatriot2004]

15. Why not? How did you find this out? n/t

[lizzieforkerry]

23. If the 3% matches perfectly than the rest of the county can be put through

the machine without hand counting or examining.

[texpatriot2004]

70. I thought Kerry's letter of yesterday changed that. n/t

[rdmccur]

104. Kerry's letter only requested that,

I doubt if that request would be given any consideration--at least not here clearly.

[Pirate Smile]

17. Who picked the 3% for a hand count?

Do you know if the 93,000 under votes will be looked at?

[lizzieforkerry]

21. They put all of the precincts in a hat and picked. Seriously.

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. Were you there?

:shrug:

[lizzieforkerry]

40. No, and they did it before the recount team got there

but I do believe some Democrats were there to witness it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Was the County Election Board there?

Each county election board consists of two Republicans and two Democrats.

[Zan_of_Texas]

47. Well, that wouldn't be hard to defeat --

Put only the numbers you want, in the hat.

[Junkdrawer]

49. ..or just claim you picked them out of a hat and dare them to call you...

a liar.

And I wonder how much time expired between the pick and the count.

[grasswire]

54. maybe the only names...

...in the hat were the precincts that had been cleansed.

[alittlelark]

65. Most likely the case.

[lizzieforkerry]

67. That's what I asked. I told them to look at the other precincts in the

hat. I'll let you know if they were able to or not. We were supposed to haev recount teams that relieved eachother, but the board told us last night that whoever was there this morning had to stay the whole day. If they had to leave, no one could replace them. That is why I wasn't able to help with the recount. I was scheduled for this afternoon.

[EFerrari]

74. Lizzie, this is garbage. Does Blair know? Where are the l

lawyers?

[lizzieforkerry]

80. Who is Blair?

Yes, Kerry's lawyer was there this morning.

[EFerrari]

93. Blair Bobier, Green Party spokesman/lawyer n/t

[lizzieforkerry]

96. I don't know.

I'll ask the people that were there for the Greens and let you know. I'm sure he will though, everyone was pretty upset.

[EFerrari]

99. Blair is great & should be notified about this stuff asap. His

contact info is at the votecobb site.

These Repugnicans drape their fake authority around themselves and try to isolate & minimize you. Don't take the bait.

[Helga Scow Stern]

91. What is the purpose of not allowing relief for the recounters?

Did they say?

[lizzieforkerry]

97. I don't know what the official reason was, but it really screwed the Green

Party because they had scheduled and trained people for every two hours. They had a really hard time finding someone to be there all day. When I asked why I was told "because they're assholes" but this was coming from one of us so I don't know what the real reason was.

[Goldeneye]

31. So you think the recount was fair?

Just want an insiders perspective.

[godel escher bach]

37. Then it's random n/t.

[spotbird]

43. Who prepared what was in the hat?

I didn't expect much when I found out how it would be done. Will Warren Co. let you count the number of signed in voters against the number of votes?

[slackmaster]

57. Other things we'd like to know about the hat

What style was it? A top hat, bowler, Stetson, porkpie, etc.?

What color?

What size?

:argh:

[lizzieforkerry]

75. I'm sure it was a black cowboy hat! LOL!

I'm just kidding, I don't know what kind of a hat. Why did they have a hat at the BOE anyway.

[New Earth]

25. ok whatever

no longer do i believe anything anyone says about any of this unless it comes from Cobb or Arnebeck.

it is impossible. something is FUCKED.

[lizzieforkerry]

32. I'm sorry you don't believe me, I was just trying to give everyone

an update on how our recount is going. Hopefully when they put the county through the machines it will show a different number, but I think they had plenty of time to fix whatever ballots they needed to.

[ReneB]

33. so what % of precincts per county are they "handcounting...

till 3%?

100 precincts and only chosing 1 precinct?
or how is it working?

[Goldeneye]

36. Short of checking when the ballots were marked.

..which is a little beyond our capabilities, I guess this is the way its going down, unless something happens with the Arnebeck case, or someone comes forward with pictures of how the fraud was carried out.

[sabra]

38. Don't shoot the messanger...

Thanks for the update, we know that you are just trying to give us a heads up on the process. We'll wait and see what the official report is out of the Cobb HQ later on...

[IndyOp]

29. Hey lizzie --

The precincts were picked randomly -- pulling slips out of a hat -- but who picked Warren County? Was it Blackwell?

Also does anyone remember where in Ohio was the photo taken of the pickup truck with ballots in the back and Bush/Cheney bumper sticker in the window?

:grr:

[Junkdrawer]

34. All counties must "randomly" pick enough precincts to make 3%...

of that county.

Cobb has reported that efforts are underway to insure that, regardless of what the real count is, a perfectly matched count will be reported.

[lizzieforkerry]

35. All of the counties in Ohio are being recounted.

Some started yesterday, some today and some tomorrow. the pickup truck picture was taken in Hamilton County (Cincinnati), which is the next county south of Warren.

[IndyOp]

45. Cobb's reports suggest that Triad techs could

alter the punch card counter memories -- do we think they could plant enough punch cards to make the counts work for each precinct? That is a BIG project.

I know they have had weeks to work and I am sick about it...

[Zan_of_Texas]

48. They had 34 days to try to clean up their fudge.

[eomer]

39. Did your friends view each ballot during the hand count

and verify the total?

And then did they observe the header cards being added to the deck and see the deck run through the counting machine?

[roseBudd]

42. According to Dr. Doug Jones of the University of Iowa once the lockdown

occured they could have been tampering with the ballots at that point. He said in an email to me:

> Warren County Ohio decides on Oct. 25 to bar the press
> from watching the tallying of votes and decides to use
> a Homeland Security threat as an excuse to bar the
> press. They do not publicize this and the press
> including an AP reporter show up on Nov. 2 but are
> not allowed entry.

At this point, you're up a creek without a paddle. Any time
that observers are barred from the tally room, so that only
insiders have access to the evidence, you've got a setup where
anything can happen.

> If some person or persons decided to switch Kerry
> votes into the Bush column by tampering with Triad
> Governmental Systems vote counting software

They could tamper with the ballots themselves at this point!
The entire situation is entirely unacceptable.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

46. So they won't recount ballots "stuffed" during the lockdown.

Did they bring the unused ballots with them for the lockdown? Was there a record of how many real voted had been cast before the lockdown? How many people sequestered themselves with the evidence during the lockdown? Ballot box stuffing, vote shredding, and systemic disenfranchisement via shortages of machines won't be detected in a recount of ballots.

[zimba]

50. If Blackwell picked the sites, and

if there was tampering with the Triad systems in Warren county, they may have not tampered with certain precincts, in case there was a recount. It seems only logical that if there is going to be a recount and fraud is suspected, that the candidates need to decide which precincts to hand count for the 3%.

Its like asking a drug dealer which rooms in their house can the police search, and then only searching those rooms.

[Carolab]

53. This is what I have known all along

and the "tampering" that Cobb reported just confirms it.

Think about it. The "Triad technician" goes to the county BoE and tells them the data is lost due to a bad battery. He then asks the staff what the numbers are "supposed to be" for the 3% of the county that is being counted. He then "sets the numbers" in the counter to "match" the "reported returns". He then tells the staff that since it will be difficult to remember the exact tallies, they should write that information on the wall--so it looks like staff notes.

The 3% gets run through the machines. And, look, everyone, it matches the results EXACTLY!

The technicians obviously had unobstructed access to the BoE offices at other times since this "election" ended. They could have done this, as Cobb says, "all over the state". Also, the poll books could have been altered to match the results, but since that would have been a much harder task, and could be checked by canvassing, those records get "locked down" and "are no longer public".

This thing was rigged from A to Z. And if this is not discovered and fraud is not definitively proven by this so-called recount, they will use this to justify continued, unrestrained authority of secretaries of state over voting machines and processes. In fact, it will probably work to argue that elections laws should make it even more difficult to contest and recount.

These lawyers should have been determining from the start how to get machines and records sequestered. They should have been determining how to establish beyond a doubt that the 3% to be recounted was absolutely random. It appears that they did not. I don't know why they did not, but I would like to know. I was going to Ohio to help with the recount until I realized no one was making sure the selections were guaranteed, 100 percent random. I then told them I wouldn't waste my time playing this game.

[fliesincircles]

52. Thanks for the update

We start counting Stark county tomorrow morning. Please update us if you hear any more about provisionals or poll book developments.

[trudyco]

56. I wish some honest person would accidently hold on to one

vote or spoil one before it goes through the machine. BTW how are the machines connected? No obvious modem, right? Battery backup or plugged in?

I can't believe they managed to cover their tracks. I hope somebody is watching these county buildings 24/7.

trudyco

[fliesincircles]

72. Honesty? What's that?

..In Blackwell's Ohio...In *'s Amerika.
I've never seen how the machines(punchcards) count, so this is new. But I'm gonna have my eyes open.

[Carolab]

71. PLEASE LISTEN!!

In future counties, you NEED TO ASK ABOUT THE RANDOM SELECTION.

IT MUST BE BY LAW RANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY MUST PROVE THAT IT IS!!!!!!!!!

FIND OUT HOW!!!!!!! MAKE SURE!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE SOMEONE PAY ATTENTION!!!

[fliesincircles]

76. Gonna try

At least we know some of the things that were done by the BOEs in other counties. Believe me it's gonna be documented, whatever they do.

[lizzieforkerry]

73. Be sure you are there for the "random" decision of which precincts

And see if you can see the other precincts that they were choosing from. ie I wonder if they chose from the same five precincts written several times in the hat.

[fliesincircles]

81. Will do

It helps not having to be the first county.

[lizzieforkerry]

83. Are you guys allowed to fill in for people, or just one person per day?

[fliesincircles]

94. Don't know yet

The plan was to work in shifts depending on how many vols were available for each time slot. Your post was the first I heard of the BOE putting a restriction on the vols. I've already let the Green party county coordinator know I could work all day if necessary. So I'm there all day unless they bring relief. Wouldn't want to miss it anyway.

[proudtobeadem]

55. This is such crap!!! I can't believe they're getting away with this!!!!!!!

[Straight Shooter]

58. A precise match? What are the odds of that happening?

My oh my, isn't Blackwell a lucky man :eyes:

[McCamy Taylor]

60. no change? not a single chad got knocked loose? O.o

This is making me think of the Triad guy telling the people to use the numbers he gave instead of the numbers they count so that there will be an exact match.

It stinks.

I think I know now why the Kerry people stepped in regarding the issue of how the 3% random sample was going to be chosen. I am betting there will be a court challenge of the "hat method".

[McCamy Taylor]

62. were the election judges present for the "hat" the same ones...

...present on election night during the lockdown?

[buddysmellgood]

64. I think we need to get the list of registered voters and form a massive

phone bank. Every DU volunteer take 100 names. We call and ask them if they voted, who they voted for and did they have any trouble voting.
We do our own exit poll except we call everybody.

It would be hard to ingore research like that.

[Terre]

66. How can that possibly be?!?!?

Not even 1 vote, one way or the other?

What are the statiscal odds of that?! And 2 counties of 2 counted, no less. Gosh, if you couldn't convince me before that fraud had happened, I'd believe you now.

[dbfl33040]

79. no proof!

[dbfl33040]

77. no surprise!!!!

I hope this won't end up being a waste of taxpayers money!!!

[New Earth]

85. are you having fun in Morocco?

[BlueOhio]

78. Every recount of punchcards shows a change. Every one ever done. eom.

[MrUnderhill]

89. Not even close to true.

It certainly isn't ALL of them, but quite a few recounts have left things unchanged. It just depends on the TYPE of recount you have. If you aren't re-determining the validity of questionable ballots and/or determining the "will of the voter" on discarded under/over votes, then all you are doing is retabulating the same pile of ballots.

You're definitely going to expect SOME discrepancies, but not in EVERY county. Perhaps not even in MOST.

[shraby]

112. Check this machine recount for Washington state

<http://vote.wa.gov/general/recount_resultsbycounty.htm>

Almost EVERY county had a change.

[MrUnderhill]

115. So that would mean...

that NOT "every single one" of even this single recount shows a change?

Could this be what I said?

[ClintCooper2003]

82. Perhaps during the lockout, they somehow switched batches...

of ballots. It's been six weeks since the election now, anything could have happened in the intervening time-frame.

Another thing that is incredibly suspicious is that there is absolutely no change whatsoever. If each candidate got a few more votes here and there then I might be willing to buy it. But no change? Really?

[ClintCooper2003]

84. Does anyone know the status of Clermont or Butler counties? n/t

[sabra]

88. Jefferson County Had Small Change:

The chances of zero change in Warren is not that likely, there should be atleast a few vote change...

<<SNIP>>
http://hsconnect.com/news/story/1214202004_new04news121404.asp

Diane Gribble, director of the Jefferson County Board of Elections, said her staff recounted the votes for president Monday after a coalition representing the Green and Libertarian parties paid for recounts in each of Ohio's 88 counties.

Gribble said President George Bush did pick up one more vote in the county, to put him at 17,185, and presidential candidate John Kerry picked up five votes to put him at 19,024.
<</SNIP>>

[fliesincircles]

101. No difference in the HAND COUNT?

<snip>
Gribble said 3 percent, or approximately 11,000, ballots must be checked by hand. Those same 11,000 ballots are then fed back into the machine to make sure the physical and mechanized count are the same. She said the results were the same so the remainder of the ballots were counted by machine.
<snip>

WTF?

<snip>
Gribble said 3 percent, or approximately 11,000, ballots must be checked by hand
<snip>

WTF2? 3% of 37,000 is only 1100!!!!

[kk897]

103. Here's how the three percent thing works:

You recount the three percent. If there's a discrepancy, you do the (same) three percent again. If there's another discrepancy, then the whole county---all the votes---must be recounted by hand.

That's the instruction as I understand it.

[fliesincircles]

117. The article claimed 11,000 votes were counted

But 3% of the 37,000 cast is only ~1,100. Secondly, although the machine count matched the hand count, it didn't match ITS OWN "official" count. Therefore, 3% handcount = 3% machine count, means machines are accurate. 97% machine count <> 97% machine count means machines are accurate? Go figure.

[MrUnderhill]

119. I'm not sure what you're saying?

"it didn't match ITS OWN "official" count"

What is that saying? Are you implying that the certified count for those precincts do not match the latest hand count? Or that the hand count didn't match the machine recount just done?

In either case, how does the full county come out the same if something had changed?

[Fescue4u]

90. If you count the BANK VAULT twice after the robbers leave

Its likely to show the same amount of money.

Doesnt mean that you havent been robbed though.

[Carolab]

92. Think about it...

they put the precincts in a hat?

How many precincts fit in a hat?

It's pretty clear they put only those precincts they had fixed in the hat. So it wouldn't make any difference which you picked. It's a random selection of fixed precincts.

Get it?

[Broken Acorn]

98. Aren't the odds of that happening like 1 in 250 million? n/t

[henslee]

100. Truthisall can answer that one.

[pointsoflight]

102. Something's wrong here. Hand counts almost NEVER match.

Even when everything is on the up and up, 99.9% of the time the count is different by at least a few votes. Just look around the country where recounts are taking place. In some places there have been multiple recounts and the totals are different every single time.

[MrUnderhill]

116. On a state-wide basis, sure...

but county-by-county? Nah.

Remember, only a "random" 3% of votes are counted by hand unless a variation shows up. What are the chances that several counties will show no change in that small a sampling when whole states sometimes just shift a few dozen votes with a complete recount?

[CoffeeCat]

105. What happens if the 3 percent counts show no irregularities?

I'm new here and trying to understand all of the information.

Can someone please tell me...if these 3 percent counts come out fine, does this impede further investigations?

I understand that if the 3 percent counts turn out fine--then the entire county isn't hand counted. However, do other activities stop, due to these numbers turning out "ok"?

I am not surprised that these numbers are coming up with no anomalies. 2000 was a test run for the Republicans. They learned what happens if fraud is suspected. They know the drill and they've covered their tracks, probably more than we realize.

It's no wonder that Blacknot-so-Well was horrendously smug during the Ohio electoral vote. I watched him on CSPAN, cracking the jokes, "CSPAN will be doing an exit poll after the vote!" and "I've been asked if there is a paper trail for these votes and yes, there is!". It's almost as if he's speaking to us--mocking us and saying, "Neener, neener ha ha" we cheated and we'll get away with it.

They've covered their tracks.

Not only must we pursue the recounts, but the people in the trenches have to start thinking like debased, psychopathic, amoral, conscious less thugs--if we're ever going to get in front of these guys.

[Smirking_Chimp]

106. Don't you think Rethugs planned for 3% hand recount? n/t

[TrickyKid]

108. Am I missing something?

Hi, guys, first time poster. Pardon my ignorance, but am I missing something? Isn't a match of the 3% expected, maybe even what we want? If we believe that the vote totals were changed AFTER they were scanned in and tabulated, wouldn't we expect the hand counts to match the immediately returned scanned count? As long as their is no tampering of the final scanned recount numbers (a HUGE if), then that's the only number that matters.

[berniew1]

109. Since the recount is by computer compiler, will there accuracy be tested?

The easiest way to rig an election is by manipulating the computer compilers at precinct or county level. Are the compilers being checked for accuracy in conjunction with the recount?

[TrickyKid]

111. Exactly

The fraud isn't going to show up when the ballots are sent through the machine (unless we believe that every individual machine is fixed). The fraud would have occurred at a central tabulator/compiler location.

[candice]

110. What happened during the lockdown

and they have had over a month to redo the ballots.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

113. Is there proof...?

...that the ballots being counted are the same as those used on election day?

...that the ballots being counted have not been tampered with since election day?

...that all of the votes cast on election day have been made available for counting (i.e. no ballots destroyed or lost)?

...that no ballots have been "added in" since election day?

I admit that I don't know too much about how these systems work and what safeguards are built into them. But it does seem to me that without proof of these four things at a minimum, recounting is absolutely useless as it can be circumvented by anyone with physical access to the ballots.

Forget all the talk about paperless touchscreens, it appears that we can't even reliably audit voting methods that DO leave a paper trail.

[berniew1]

114. Punch card counties are easy to fix; just add some cards with vote you wa

Punch card counties are easy to fix; just add the number of cards with vote you want punched, at the end of the day to give you the margin you are looking for. Of course you can't go over the number of registered voters. Also very hard to prove there was tampering.

[trudyco]

120. Hmm. Do we have enough people to start canvassing? -nt

[sharman]

121. Question Lizzie

Are you comparing the hand count to reported tally for each precinct from election night?

Or only comparing the hand count to the machine count you are doing at the same time?

thx

[garybeck]

122. the testimony in yesterday's hearings explains it all

A sworn affadivit in yesterday's hearings reveals that the recount is just as fixed as the first count. expect all the results to match the official numbers.

[farmbo]

123. Stop the Presses!!!

Warren county, Ohio...the county that faked a "10" Terror alert to justify kicking the press and independent observers out of their Nov 2nd vote count has....drumroll... confirmed the Nov 2nd results to the last vote, exactly.

Lets call off the recount and Move on!


:grr: