Why do people resist hearing about election fraud? Why do

[texpatriot2004]

so many people seem to tune out, shut down. What is this resistance all about? Why is it that the millions of people who voted for Kerry are not with us on this issue?

What is it that keeps people from believing in election fraud as even a possibility? There are obvious reasons, like it's not covered by the MSM. Still, it has to be more than that. Even Dems are putting the blinders on. Why?

Any thoughts on this?

How can we reach these people who are so resistant? I believe there is a way to do it. I am not exactly sure of the approach yet, but I think it's worth exploring.

[bearfan454]

1. They know it is true, but

they don't want to know about it. It scares them.

[jamboi]

6. Its too monsterously awful to conceive of. The have to warm up to the

story little by little. Break them in easy with MSM stuff.

[Guarionex]

2. because they don't want to waste time

suffering after what they may perceive may not hold water....

Sadly, there is little we can do except press for more media coverage...or hope Kerry comes out.

[andyhappy]

3. especially after 2000

you think people would be more tuned in to any oddities that happened with the election.

and everytime I see a news story about the Ukraine I think I am going mad as a brattle pot!

[SueZhope]

4. it's not covered by the MSM & Kerry is not out front

thats the reason..they do not understand that the media is not there Friend

The average person thinks that the NEWS has NEWS.....
they are asleep.

When i try to tell people about this they say...
If its true it would be on the news and Kerry would fight it.

[demo dutch]

75. Right on the nose!

[LynzM]

5. Because it is scary

If they believe that things are ok, they don't have to face the scary reality that the world may not be a nice place, that people don't play fair, that they are being lied to. That's a scary thing for a lot of people to confront, and they will actively avoid things that force them to contemplate that possibility. For many people, it's akin to the suggestion that "God may not exist" or "God may not exist in the form you think"... too scary to even think about!

[Goldeneye]

7. Because they don't care

I tried telling my brother, and his excuse for not wanting to hear about was that he was tired.

The last four years were terrible for many people, but they were just four more years for a lot of people, including my brother and many others. It's like the analogy of putting a frog in a pot of boiling water: if you put a frog in boiling water it will jump out. If you put it in room temp. water and slowly heat it, the frog will not jump out even when it is boiling. Slowly our rights are being taken away, and the people don't notice because they still have their cell phones and cars. I think it won't be long until Bushco. goes to far though...hopefully people will snap out of it before its too late.

[babylonsister]

8. When I tried bringing up the topic of

voter fraud with my sister, who's a Dem and voted for Kerry, she accused me of 'beating a dead horse'. Sometimes I think she's right, but then I get back to DU and this place gives me some faith.

[texpatriot2004]

9. Yeah, I get that stupid dead horse talk too. n/t

[BamaBecky]

21. Those are the most disheartening confrontations of all...I know, I have

a cousin who is a Democrat. She told me to "get over it". I was FLOORED AND CRUSHED. :shrug:

[electropop]

29. the lefties in my family agree

I think. The righties will hear about it when it blows up.

[dogindia]

10. maybe we are seeing some culture-wide mind.

Kind of like mob mentality thing. I too have wondered long and hard about this. Even the left leaning bloggers and journalists and people like Eric Alterman, MIchael Moore and Al Franken and a host of others have refused to speak of the subject. I think we need to talk about this a lot to see if we can discover what is going on. There is so much proof that fraud and voter intimidation took place. There was so much talk about the potential for fraud before the election.

There was a text that rose to the surface a number of weeks ago which said that basically people want to believe in things that other believe. That they are afraid to be alone in an idea....be shamed for thinking something. I will search for it.

But there is something more than that. I wish I could put my finger on it. If we could discover it it might help the MSM coverage blackout as well.

[texpatriot2004]

15. The Groupthink theory. It does happen. n/t

[IndyOp]

36. Texpatriot -- I like your bringing up Groupthink -- psych is my

baliwick, and this isn't quite groupthink. It is just simple conformity. People who have doubts are afraid to speak out and risk rejection, ridicule, isolation, or revenge. Whistleblowers are unusual -- you (we) have to be pretty independent and not need approval from others, be willing to face the ridicule, be ready to pick a fight (when the cause is just).

The best way for a minority to break group conformity is to speak early and often, present only the best arguments, and listen to what others think about the situation so that we can begin making our points where they are and lead them to where we are. So we start with something most people are likely to accept and then move them to the BIG issues. Start with - (1) there was unjust suppression of votes of African Americans, (2) the suppression wasn't small, it was 10,000's of thousands of votes and lots of different techniques were used, (3) there were more votes cast than voters, (4) there seems to have been fraud on the part of a few people who may work for the voting machine companies and attempts to cover up that fraud, (5) the number of votes switched is on the order of 100,000's and we must contest this election on January 6th!

:bounce:

[texpatriot2004]

54. Thanks, my major in college was Psych I didn't figure it was

Groupthink exactly but similar. I like your message here. One thing, for me, although for years I have been told that I am a great listener, you know, active listening...even with hard or painful topics, but on this issue I am not able to hear much that goes against what I believe. Maybe it's part of my processing the whole issue. Perhaps it will change, but for now, that's where I am.

I am all into fighting for just causes, though this cause has brought out a side of me I didn't really know was there. It's good.

[Old Mouse]

51. It's weird to see it in reality, isn't it

I'm hoping the 100th monkey theory proves true as well

[texpatriot2004]

55. Yeah, maybe it will, that 100dth monkey was interesting

[BamaBecky]

23. Yes, put our finger on why it matters to us and not to THEM? n/t

[Hobbes199]

11. Because of 2000, but then again...

Most people don't know that Gore really won Florida in 2000, and that we really have had a sham president, both electorally and popularly.

[AmerDem]

12. My take is this

People across the board anymore are lazy in that they take zero interest in the communities and country they live. They take much for granted and have grown in an atmosphere where those that try to speak out are cast as kooks and out of the norm. These same people consider even voting a hassle and bother. Sadly, after years and years of our society going down this road so to has our way of life. My $.02

[dogindia]

13. a friend who is very worried about this adminstration

seemed doubtful about fraud in my conversation with him. I listed all the reasons for my belief in it and he seemed to come around. It was like he did not know about all the evidence.

[texpatriot2004]

16. Yes...they don't know about the evidence and there's alot of it.

[quiet.american]

14. Comfort Zones

I think there's some merit to all of the above.

I would add, this election has already forced people to come far out of their comfort zones, and they just don't want to stretch their necks out any further, especially if they're taking their cue from JK's concession speech.

[VTGold]

17. "It'll be okay" syndrome......drives me nuts n/t

[texpatriot2004]

19. Especially when it's not okay and things are getting worse.

I am with you on that!

[eaprez]

18. Because its easier to just be a victim.....

....it requires you to do nothing other than whine.

[BamaBecky]

20. My husband's daughter ask me to take her name off of my political crap

e-mail list. I sent her this back:


>>ok....I'll take you off the "political crap list"......how can I get you to care about what's happing to America? Why dismiss this out of hand? At the very heart of our American Democracy is the right to have our votes counted. I don't understand people who do not care that "certain people" are hacking these voting machines. It makes no sense to me that a truely patriotic American would not earnestly care a great deal about this. I'm truly baffled, truly baffled by this - Please explain yourself to me? How can you reduce one of America's greatest freedoms as "crap". I just don't get it?<<

She ignored it......

[zimba]

22. For years I couldnt understand how

the Germans could sit by and watch their country get overrun by thugs and murderers. Now I do. Its called fear. Could be fear of the unknown, fear of reprisal, fear of being laughed at, fear of the economy taking a downturn, fear at going where so few dare tread, it doesnt really matter. Still just fear. It seems to me that everything else is just used as an excuse to hide the fear based logic being used by those who should be invovled but arent.

Fucking cowards.

[Garbo 2004]

58. Don't underestimate the power of apathy and incredibly as it may seem

a lot of people don't see a direct impact on their everyday lives by what goes on in Washington and figure it's all politics and la, la, la.

Then when they do see a direct impact on their lives they have all sorts of folks to blame, usually not those who are really responsible.

[slackmaster]

24. Because about half of the population thinks their guy won fair and square

If someone voted for Bush or really doesn't care, why would they want to bother with information that suggests anything went wrong with the process?

:shrug:

[IndyOp]

40. More than half the population believes Bush won fair and square -

The number is closer to 75-80% based on the last couple of polls. Any why not? Who would believe that the vote could be frauded so that 100,000's of votes could be swapped in multiple states? It is hard to believe if you don't know anything about how the computers could be rigged. It is hard to believe if you think that to do it would take a 'vast right-wing conspiracy'. It is hard to believe because * won by such a convincing margin -- over 3,000,000 votes.

I have a friend whose father investigated and was a primary actor in bringing to light the Korean Airliner Scandal. Some years back terrorists blew up a Korean Air plane with hundreds of passengers. The only problem was that there was no evidence of any other plane in the same airspace as the KAL plane when it was attacked. How could it have happened if there wasn't another plane and if the wreckage did not suggest a missile attack? It couldn't possibly have been a remote control bomb planted by the CIA -- that is conspiracy theory at its luniest. Impossible. But it happened.

If you are going to do engage in fraud do it so BIG that no one will believe it anything but an act of nature.

We can break through the denial -- just keep talking and writing to any and all who WILL listen.

:kick:

[marions ghost]

68. Not necessarily true that voters for W don't care...

...about the election stuff. Agree that NON-voters don't care, but SOME voters for Bushco I think may be having some doubts.

LITTLE STORY: My Dad is a lifelong D, his cousin is a lifelong R (both fairly long in the tooth). Good friends, though. Before the election Cuz was all cocky about W and drew a lot of his arguments from RWradio...teased Dad about voting for the "flip-flopper" and all that. Parroted the party line. A couple of weeks after the election they talked again. Cuz asked Dad what he thought, and Dad made the joke, "well, I'm voting Republican next time...I want to be on the WINNING team for a change." To Dad's amazement, Cuz started talking about the weird exit polls and doubts about e-voting. That was his face-saving way of saying...yeah, we need to so something about the election system. Dad was amazed. Cuz is far from stupid and does want to win "fair and square." He's not buying it.

MY POINT: Maybe we need to be a little more open to the fact that the dividing line on this "why do people resist...why do they deny" may actually NOT be drawn strictly in Blue vs Red. I realize my sample size is small, but from the posts here, it seems the resisters can be found in either party. This MIGHT really be a non-partisan issue...at least after hearing this story, I could believe it.

Lots of interesting contributions on this topic. Thanks to all who posted.

[Raksha]

25. I believe that knowing about it...

...really KNOWING about it, allowing yourself to look at all the red flags and think about their implications--just by its nature imposes a moral responsibility upon you to act on what you know. I think that what many people are really afraid of is the moral imperative imposed by their own conscience. The implications are just too enormous and the battle seems too hopeless, considering the kind of entrenched power we are dealing with.

Since most people are not by nature heroes or martyrs, the easiest way to avoid the moral imperative of action is to refuse to look at what's right in front of them. I can relate to that. God knows I'm no hero either, and I DEFINITELY don't want to be a martyr! There's no real danger of that since I'm not on the front lines, but I still take whatever small actions I can, and try to keep myself informed about the latest developments.

But this isn't because of any unusual courage--in fact, it's very much the opposite! It's because I'm even MORE afraid of the consequences of not seeing and not knowing, of pretending I don't see our country slipping deeper every day into bankruptcy and fascism, than I am of the consequences of resistance.

--Linda

[dogindia]

26. i think you are on to something

to know and not do something is serious problem for one's conscience. Better to not know if one feels out of power to do anything. Plus there is no ground swell or media talk so that is even worse. Plus we have had four plus years of lies and blatant misdeeds that we could not stop. Many, many people demonstrated against the war. All we could is let the idiots do it. Very dis-empowering.

And this is big...a very big misdeed.

What's to be done?

[texpatriot2004]

27. Well said. It's what I call the luxury of being an American, I don't

have to know. I don't have to be informed. I can feast and shop and live not knowing the hideous side of my country, my government, my actions, where my dollars go and what they actually support. You know, it really is a luxury, not knowing. Ignorance is bliss and all. I think you raise a very good point that the consequences of NOT KNOWING are far worse and the consequences of resistance are far less. Thanks for your input.

[dogindia]

28. luxury

This country is rich. Top Dog. At least for the moment. I think some people are truly complacent. I think also this is a moral dilemma for many. I think many are afraid nothing can be done. It is frightening to lose one's country and not be able to stop it.

A post a day or so ago by a republican said that his friend all knew it had happened. They accept it. For whatever that means. He did not intimate that they were particularly happy about it.

How could anybody want this to happen. How can the people administration live with themselves. And they call themselves moral. Power corrupting. Luxury corrupts.

[texpatriot2004]

30. And why would anyone believe it happended and choose to

do nothing? To allow it? Why?

[Karenina]

34. It's a bit like White Privilege.

.

[texpatriot2004]

52. Yeah

[Old Mouse]

50. good answer

somewhere along the line our "civic duty" became a "civic option"

[SouthernDem2004]

31. Views of a Moderate Dem

The problem is that there is zero proof of fraud. There were certainly problems like in every election but until you have proof no one is going to listen.

I am afraid we lost plain and simple. I do not like it but that does not mean there was fraud involved.

[texpatriot2004]

32. That's not true, there is proof, and all that has to be proven is

that circumstances existed where fraud was possible. Plus, it's not over, it takes time to gather the evidence. How much have you researched? With all due respect, I disagree and we didn't "lose plain and simple" we lost on election fraud.

So, your answer as to why people resist is because you think there is no proof and you think that they believe the same, right?

[IndyOp]

33. SouthernDem2004 - If you want to find out about the fraud

you have to do some research. You can't wait for it to show up on TV or on your local radio station. There is a ton of evidence and more accumulates day by day. Start by reading the letter from the Congress of the United States House of Representatives Committee on the Judiciary to Kenneth Blackwell. It includes lots of information. Here's one of my favs:

In Butler County, a Democratic Candidate for State Supreme Court, C. Ellen Connally received 59,532 votes. In contrast, the Kerry-Edwards ticket received only 54,185 votes, 5,000 less than the State Supreme Court candidate. Additionally, the victorious Republican candidate for State Supreme Court received approximately 40,000 less votes than the Bush-Cheney ticket. Further, Connally received 10,000 or more votes in excess of Kerry’s total number of votes in five counties, and 5,000 more votes in excess of Kerry’s total in ten others.

Full letter in html: <http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HRE412A.html>

Then read: A READABLE, CONVINCING summary of Ohio vote fraud analyses at <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=137414>

Stick around DU for a few days and I think you may be convinced.

:hi:

[SouthernDem2004]

38. Still zero proof

I have listened to all of the conspiracy theories but I have still seen no proof. From Bev Harris mystical poll tape to an unlocked door at a BOE building. Nada

Not everyone votes straight party ticket, I do not. Just because voters in a county elected Democrats for some elections but not for President does not mean there was fraud. I recall a similar argument about several counties in Florida. Of course it turned out that they had voted for Republican presidents for decades even though they were Democrats.

A good read: http://www.salon.com/tech/col/leon/2004/11/03/echo_chamber/

[IndyOp]

47. SouthernDem --

I appreciate critical thinkers. I teach lots of critical thinkers. I have learned that I can't make anyone believe anything -- even with really good evidence. A good portion of the students in my red state don't believe in evolution.

I clicked on the link to the Salon article that you posted. I can't read the full article because I don't donate $ to Salon, but I did notice the date was 11/3/04 -- which was a long, long time ago. A whole lot of new evidence has surfaced.

If you really want to consider all the evidence to date you might want to take a look at the letter from Conyers to Blackwell (your post doesn't indicate that you did) and you might want to look at the transcript of the Conyers hearings in Columbus yesterday (Randi Rhodes was talking about it on today's Air America Radio show).

As for the Kathy Dopp analysis about precincts in Florida that had high Democrat registrations that went for Bush -- no one has accurately addressed what I think is the most interesting part of her revised analysis. She revised it to a more appropriate range of counties - population size wise. The most interesting part of the analysis is that counties with Democrat registrations that voted on opscan machines voted for Bush; counties with Democrat registrations that voted on punch card machines voted for Kerry. (No obvious differences in socioeconomics or racial variables between these counties). This implies fraud happened on some voting systems, but not others.

There is a similar situation in Ohio:

TRIAD MACHINES PRODUCE MORE BUSH VOTES THAN EXPECTED

A comparison of votes for Kerry (compared to Gore) indicates that in the 28 counties using punch card systems not manufactured by Triad, Kerry won 62,406 more votes than expected; in the 7 counties using electronic voting Kerry won 38,377 more Kerry votes than expected; and in the 12 counties using optical scan equipment, Kerry won 323 more votes than expected. Combined, Kerry won 101,506* more votes than expected in the 47 counties in Ohio that do not use Triad punch card machines, an average of 2,160 per county. In contrast, in the 41 counties using Triad punch card voting systems John Kerry got 13,369 votes fewer votes than expected, an average of 326 fewer per county.

Implication: Fraud on Triad punch card machines -- and there are now witnesses who say that a Triad technician came to their city offices on Friday, December 10 -- and zeroed out a voting machine system.

What you need to see as "proof" I don't know if we have so far -- but gosh -- we have such a strong circumstantial case that I am hard put to believe that it did not happen.

I hope you keep readin' -- we need the critical thinkers to keep thinking and challenging us when we need challenging.

:kick:

[SouthernDem2004]

66. Overall view

There is certainly nothing wrong with investigating possible
problems.

The problem that alot of "main stream" Democrats have is that people are running around yelling fraud without any proof. If you read the responses here you will note that people keep saying there is proof but fail to offer any.

The next elections started 03Nov2004. People running around claiming 2004 was a fraud is not going to help us win seats. Claiming there is proof and then offering none is not going to help win seats. Calling Republicans names and stupid is not going to win seats. Calling anyone that voted for Bush stupid is not going to win seats.

Scroll through this forum and look at all of the conspiracy theories. Most faded away when the "proof" never materialized. Unless someone can come up with proof no one is going to listen. Polls are not proof, blogs are not sources and "I heard that" is not proof. I need facts. Fraud is a serious charge to levy in an election.

[IndyOp]

71. I agree that most threads on this site don't offer proof --

but, again, you don't seem to have looked at the evidence I mentioned in my post just above yours. You seem to be ignoring the evidence that I offered.

Best wishes! :-)

[rucky]

41. Scott Petersen was convicted on circumstancial evidence.

No "proof" by your standards. Does that mean Laci was never killed?

[SouthernDem2004]

45. Huh?

There was evidence of a murder. The circumstantial case was who actually did the killing.

There is no evidence of fraud. Without fraud there are no suspects.

[pointsoflight]

43. You obviously haven't been paying attention. n/t

[SouthernDem2004]

46. Sure I have...

I have been reading this site as well as many others. I have listened to the theories but no one yet to offer any proof. I would be greatful for any proof you may have.

[Garbo 2004]

64. Well there is evidence of efforts at voter suppression and those should

be a matter of concern. Don't need a tin foil hat to see that.

If the Dems got caught doing it, the Repubs would be screaming about it. But reports of voter suppression efforts in various states and some actually documented leading to local Repub campaign HQ or people connected with them and that barely gets a ripple of concern or attention. I know some "dirty tricks" may be difficult to track down to those responsible, but still...

It may not be as sexy as stories of hacking machines or sinister foreign programmers but voter suppression efforts were real in this and previous elections and should be a significant issue IMO. Perhaps people figure it's just politics as usual & isolated events & may not have made a huge difference, but it's something that should get more attention than it does IMO.

[pointsoflight]

65. Would you be satisfied with proof as defined by Ohio state law?

Because here it is:

Ohio Revised Statute Title XXXV Elections, Sec. 3503.26 that requires all election records to be made available for public inspection and copying.

Ohio Revised Statute Title XXXV, Elections, Sec. 3599.42 makes a violation of any provision of the Election Code a prima-facie case of fraud.

Ohio Revised Statute Title XXXV, Elections, Sec. 3599.161 (C) provides that failure to allow inspection of election records is a minor misdemeanor and requires that Board of Elections officials who are found guilty of prohibiting inspection of election records must be dismissed from their position with the Board of Elections.

[pointsoflight]

44. Oh, and welcome to DU!

[Old Mouse]

56. There is overwhelming proof

it just requires education on the part of the jury.

After years of melodramatic crime drama for entertainment, we are only convinced of a crime if it somehow involves killing a beautiful woman. The drab trail of corporate fraud leaves us bored and unresponsive. Enron was the largest crime in American history, but we all know more about Scott Peterson.

We have MORE evidence than they had in the Ukraine, we have motive and opportunity; we have names, dates and sworn testimony. We have everything but a policeman.

[SouthernDem2004]

60. What and where?

What evidence? Where is it? Why has it not been released?

[Old Mouse]

67. You ARE where it has been released

Did you watch the Conyer's hearings? You can't throw a rock in DU without hitting a transcript!

The evidence was presented the media, to congress, and the FBI has been repeatedly called.

Many members of the republican controlled Congress were possibly put in power by the very technology being uncovered. They don't seem to want to look at the evidence.

The FBI answers to the Attorney General of the United States, appointed by the President who was put in power by the very technology being uncovered. He does not seem to want anyone to look at the evidence.

The people who have perpetrated fraud control all of the avenues to prosecute fraud.

[demo dutch]

76. Yes but the "people" are interested abou their democracy!

unlike the people in the Ukraine!

[IndyOp]

35. I am going to get flamed for saying this -- but Randi Rhodes is NOT

helping. Don't get me wrong -- I really, really, really admire her coverage. I know she has been brutally flamed by conservatives for her honesty in past.

Nonetheless she has GOT to stop attacking - yes, attacking - moderate Republicans who call her show. A guy was on at 4:45 pm today (Tuesday) and he was trying to make the point that Randi would have an easier time convincing moderate Republicans that vote fraud happened if she would stop calling anyone who voted for Bush stupid. I tend to AGREE with him. He was saying aloud that maybe only 45% of Americans voted for Bush in this past election and instead of recognizing that he WAS willing to face that vote fraud happened and try to right the wrong -- she attacked him.

Sorry - and, yes, I am ready to be flamed - but this one's for you Randi:

:grr:

[rucky]

42. We're talking about FRAUD and you're worried about hurt feelings? n/t

[IndyOp]

53. I'm not worried about the Republican caller's feelings

being hurt -- I am worried that he will be one less person who is willing to listen. If I am demeaned by someone, I often don't give f*ck what they have to say -- in fact, I often start rooting for them to loose -- even if their cause is just.

We need EVERYONE -- especially the moderate Dems and Repubs. I am being practical here - not overly sentimental or under-assertive.

She could have had him in the palm of her hands -- she could have had a self-declared Republican who voted for * say on a radio show that airs nationwide that he believes that vote fraud really happened -- that is a powerfully convincing event for any doubters listening to the show. She missed it. She slaughtered the moment.

I'm still angry -- :grr:

[Old Mouse]

48. I hope you don't get flamed

For your opinion. Yes, she can be caustic, and is less logical and more emotional in style and delivery than others such as Flanders, but that is exactly why she is so effective.

Her anger speaks to people. She seems honest with her indignation, it doesn't seem like an angry liberal or someone with a political agenda. She connects with people who want to be involved with the process, but do not want to join a political movement.

There is something so personable and real about her personality that makes her the most effective evangelist we have. She is probably making more converts to our side than any other personality at AAR.

When I first started listening to AAR I thought she was too rough on some callers, (and she is,) but I wouldn't change a thing.

[IndyOp]

57. Oldmouse -- thanks for your take on this...

I know that we need a diversity of voices and styles that will reach out to the amazing diversity of people who want a new voice -- and I thank you for reminding me of this.

I would prefer that she maintain her super tough style with Dems who could be more progressive -- more honest -- more willing to confront ugly facts than moderate Republicans. Conflict among friends can be managed, smoothed over. Conflict between strangers just causes a break in contact. When she beats up on a moderate Republican -- any and all Repubs listening turn her off -- and we want them to listen. It is a miracle they are listening at all -- no WAY would I tune in Rush Limbaugh.

I will mediate some more on what you said -- especially, "Her anger speaks to people. She seems honest with her indignation..." and "There is something so personable and real about her personality that makes her the most effective evangelist we have. She is probably making more converts to our side than any other personality at AAR." Hmmmmm..... Do we want our anger to speak to people? Maybe so, maybe so.

:eyes:

[IndyOp]

37. To make an impression in person you need a good...

'elevator speech' - a summary you can state in the period of time it would take to ride a couple of floors in an elevator. The best speeches would have a number of different points to them -- voter suppression, clear evidence of computer vote fraud, information about cover ups underway. Some numbers ('cause people are impressed by numbers) - but not too many.

When trying to convince someone in writing MY biggest downfal is writing at a too complex level and sending it out via email. People just won't read them. I've got to work on making my e-mails to friends/relatives about this issue punchier.

:hi:

[genieroze]

39. Because they don't want to believe our country has turned to crap. eom

[Laura PourMeADrink]

49. 90 % of Democrats don't even know about it. Unless they

surf progressive web. Also, we do not have a definitive piece of published copy that outlines all the fraud issues. The single most glaring issue to me is that the statiticians (sp) are saying what happened (the results)are so out of line with the polls and exit polls that the probability is 1 in 15 trillion. That alone is the smoke in "where there's smoke, there is fire". We don't know the who and the how yet, but we know a crime has been committed. Because Kerry chose a certain path -- conceding early. (You can not blame him because on the surface, it looked like defeat for sure) We ended up without a voice in the country. A clear leader, who had the right to sqwack. Thus, coupled with the news blackout, 90 % of the people don't know we've been robbed.

[s-cubed]

59. Talk to the kids: teenagers and twenties. They'll listen,

and they will take to the streets with us. I have prepared an e-mail which I am sending out to lots of people. I have to decide how much to stir up my family by sending it to them, since most are bushies. But the kids are great!

[texpatriot2004]

61. That's true, the young people are great! n/t

[texpatriot2004]

81. A definitive piece of published copy, what would it need to have

and/or be?

[Old Mouse]

62. reality IS subjective

No human truly lives in the NOW or reality. We all have crafted acceptable levels of what we believe to be the world around us in order to function and live.

But this construct of reality is like the proverbial onion skin. There is no end to peeling back the layers,revealing a larger and more complex state of existence each time.

For some, the crafted reality is that the entire world is supposed to be like a television version of small town America. Homelessness is by choice. Poverty is from laziness. God doesn't want anyone to do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. And sending our noble boys to give the less-than-human brownish folk across the globe a chance at this life is a good and godlike thing to do.

A few layers down there are those watching the planetary ecosystem dramatically shift with the accelerating speed of a chemical reaction with the only adjustable factor, the global economic network, becomes less effective every moment it remains under the control of an illegal and incompetent cabal.

The human brain is designed to craft a reality in order to base the sense of self. The average American will find it difficult to suddenly expand their notion of how the world around them works.

[haifagirl1]

63. very few care

People don't care, they want to move forward, get on with their lives..

[Amaryllis]

69. They find it unbelievable that it could be this corrupt. For some reason

even the ones who know they stole it in 2000 have a hard time believing it...but I find when I give them verifiable facts they start to come around. Being able to talk about the House Judiciary Committee helps a lot to give credibility.
But not many believe there is anything that can be done about it.

[jazzjunkysue]

70. individual threshold for conflict: defending a persoanl paradygm

People have a limited capacity for conflict, and a deep desire for peace and comfort....for themselves. It takes a seriously enlightened person to wish the same for another, and to put one'self into a conflict for another's sake. Since the soothing pretty lies of the repubs are accepted my "the majority" they find it more comfortable to just play dumb, or deaf, or dead, or make excuses for being too busy to bother.

People create a map of reality, or a paradygm, and will often die to defend it, because it serves as a personal identity. Without that identity, they feel vulnerable and unprotected. So, we here are just a little more able to process more agida and go on living. We thrive on the fight. We feel alive when we have a cause. The trouble is, mis that with some fear, ignorance, laziness and bigotry, and you have a gay-hating war monger. Reality is just a little inconvenience when you're invested in your agenda. They want a better world, but, not as desperately as the repubs want their power and money.

[dogindia]

74. very good comments jazz

Do you think this appies somehow to the left leaning bloggers, journalists, and celebs who where so outspoken before election and who are now mute?

[Amaryllis]

80. It must apply to them, otherwise how can it be explained? They go beyond

MSM, but...I had been following the black box voting and voter suppression issue for a long time before the election, and was sure they'd try to steal it again, so I was looking for fraud stuff online the day after the election. Some of them are selective in what they check out in alternative media...still, they'd have to be nearly blind and deaf not to encounter it now that Conyers et all is into it.

[marions ghost]

73. You are hitting on something that I was thinking...

You say that some who KNOW that crimes likely happened --still do not believe there is anything that can be done about it.
So they are accepting a powerless state--they assume that all the avenues to justice have been closed and that any form of dissent is a waste of time. I really wonder just how many of these people might be out there and how much they might be victims of a kind of psychology of the downtrodden. A survival mechanism.

Is this different from hiding from reality out of fear?
Does this mean they just don't believe in the ideals of our system any more? They are beyond fear. They are willing participants.

I guess I'm talking about people who still sort of participate in the system, but really have no faith in the lofty ideals of ethics and responsibility in government. Are we so far gone that justice and honesty just seem unrealistic? Are more people willing to cheat? The ends justifies the means is fine, as long as you dont get caught. Has this become the pervasive mode? Or is that too cynical? I really don't know....

QUOTE from Old Mouse #56: The drab trail of corporate fraud leaves us bored and unresponsive. Enron was the largest crime in American history, but we all know more about Scott Peterson. How many would prefer this emphasis by the media?

[texpatriot2004]

82. Yeah, that's true the "nothing is going to change belief" that's

another roadblock. What's the detour for that one eh?

[texpatriot2004]

83. I have to admit the level of corruption is mindblowing. n/t

[Matariki]

72. One thing I've realized

Is that when people are bombarded with information about large-scale wrongdoing, they often feel like there's nothing they can do about it.

One of the scarier reactions I've observed isn't denial, but the resigned attitude of 'sure it happens, but what are you going to do about it'. A number of my friends who were active during the WTO protests in Seattle have developed a sort of hip, jaded cynicism and make knowing, black humor jokes out of it all. I find this worse, really, than ignorance.

What I've been doing, is sending out the more compelling pieces of information to everyone in my address book. Never more than one issue in an email, so that it's readable and not overwhelming. And I also send suggestions for an action to take, a letter or email to write, etc. along with an address to make it easy, and remind them that it will only take a minute or two of their time to do it. This has seemed to help. Even with my republican sister.

[dogindia]

79. maybe being swamped by the enormousness of the problem

I sent out alot of info early on and got no response at all from very anti administration friends in this major east coast city. Nothing. No word back at all. Like sending stuff into a black hole. Like there is something under the surface that is keeping them quiet and in denial. Many people have a lot of pressure in their lives. But it is more than that. Perhaps a complex of many of the notions said here.

I don't want this to Nazi Germany. I don't want the right wing to destroy this country.

There is a global problem with human development verses Nature and the health of the planet and its creatures. Many big issues seeming almost impossible to solve....now we have to fight these right wing thieves and hacks. It seems like a waste of time when the real problems are not even being able to be addressed.

[texpatriot2004]

84. Wow, even reached the Repub sister, Great. I like the way

you are keeping it simple in your e-mail messages and your call to some action.

[Slaps]

77. people are stupid thats why

I know. I have more education than most.

[rigel99]

78. 2 Things, Fog of Denial and Naivete

I was at a Howard Dean party this weekend in GA, and I'm not proud to say GA is ground zero for election fraud, where Cathy Cox successfully deployed the borg in the form of Diebold machines all over the state.

I stood there while a very 'republican' looking new to the Howard Dean Progressive group with her dangling diamond earrings said,
"Cathy is a democrat, we must all get behind her and suppport her."
I told her fine, as soon as Cathy attends just one of our public hearings on election fraud and the goal of paper ballots and a transparent election process...

BOttom line, she gave me that FOG OF DENIAL look that republicans get when you ask "Where are the 360 Tons of WMD that walked out of Iraq AFTER our supposed invasion for safety and security?"

The other Deaniacs were just plain Naive.. they really thought that "Get out the Vote" and fielding progressive candidates would get them anywhere.... like they think that there's still a voting process in place... until I heard the evidence, and the very scary stories of cut brake lines, slashed tires (as early as last week one elections protestor had their tires slashed here in GA), it's damn scary and yet exhilirating to be fighting the only fight left in the democratic party....

[texpatriot2004]

85. That is a Damn fine question.

"Where are the 360 Tons of WMD that walked out of Iraq AFTER our supposed invasion for safety and security?"

You are right, denial and naivete are big blocks in the way.

[gorbal]

86. It's hypnotizing

I became to obsessed with the issue before. It sort of requires it to know what is going on. Now I am trying to concentrate on other things. Did you know, for instance, that the foodbanks in many areas have severe shortages this year? A growing number of children are homeless and sleeping on the streets, IN THE US, let alone around the world. This election is important but it doesn't trump all other issues.

[AtLiberty]

87. Vote fraud, at least on the level we're talking...

..."doesn't happen" in the United States. The very idea is inconceivable to most Americans. Combine that with the Christmas season and the lack of mainstream media attention and a strong voice from the Democratic Party -- you're beating a dead horse.

The other day I spent 20 minutes highlighting all the outrages of this election to a fellow Dem who appeared to be interested in my rant. Her reply had something to do with her Starbucks Christmas mug collection. Surreal.

I've informed at least 25 Dem friends in town and more than a dozen via e-mail about what really happened in this election. My hope is to bump into someone who will say they've already heard all about it. Should I build myself up for such disappointment?

[Kralizec]

88. Agreed. n/t

[Griffy]

89. kick