Are we pivoting away from 'the cause' by trying to figure out Bev Harris?

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

Are we going to be so partisan that even our vote fraud investigators have to declare party allegiance first?

I haven't been following the BBV/BH thing, mainly because I was more interested in Ohio. Still am.

Maybe BH is a crazy RWinger -- but at least she is working on this issue that is supposedly so near and dear to our hearts. And from what I read she seems well educated on the e-fraud issue.

Right now, in Ohio, Team Conyers is fighting a very uphill battle to get the f*ing Republicans, on the Juduciary Committee, to do anything more than laugh at them. Conyers is asking for 1 million email to demand that the Republican membership participate so that the Conyers' investigation will have subpoena power. If we are really serious about this issue -- we must be willing to at least steer clear of the extremely polarized US v. THEM routine.

Yes, Republican's policies and platform are, in general, abhorrent to us. But, we won't change their 'totally wack' mindset with election reform. Don't confuse these two issues. Fair honest elections is a separate effort than trying to get the Republicans to understand things like 'taking the fight to terrorists -- so you don't have to fight them at home' -- might be a reasonable philosophy -- but only if you can find the terrorists when you get there.

Or -- are we just like the Republicans -- only interested in the vote tampering story if the other team takes it in the head and we put our man in office? If so, this story is going to be a revolving door and we all will tire quickly of it and both just advance our expertise at vote tampering and e-fraud.

For our effort to have any meaning to our country, we have to be willing to take the long view and clean up the system -- not just partisanly hammer the other guys (as completely tempting as that is -- remember Frodo being tempted to keep the ring for himself rather than throw it into the fire and save the world?).

Dems have participated in vote tampering before and we will do it again. And, as a proud liberal, I, personally, am prepared to 'get a little of it on me' in the effort to secure fair and honest elections in this country.

P.S. Calling the opposition the dark side is creepy. Team Bush may be the dark side, but the people who voted for him may just be misguided. My best friend in one of these people.

I apologize, in advance, to any I have offended -- but I have to ask -- so, guys, what's it going to be?

[el_gato]

1. people care more about petty squabbles than they do about democracy

[jamboi]

11. That's what it looks like to me. Add to that the psyops element and things

get pretty crazy.

[MrUnderhill]

56. Maybe it's just that some of us...

...have the ability to multi-task?

[jamboi]

59. LOL. Multitasking on both the valuable and the worthless. Diversions and

priority items. Hmmm...

[MrUnderhill]

60. So you don't think what's going on in Ohio is important?

Because you seem to have a pretty large number of posts on this Bev issue.

Defending her is every bit as much a waste of time (objectively quite a bit larger waste in fact).

[jamboi]

2. Beautifully stated! Right on Not_Without_A_Fight! n/t

[jamboi]

7. Maybe part of the problem here is our (including RR's) expectations.

I think part of the problem here is our (including RR's) expectations, which may always have been askew. BH's clearly not a partisan Democrat and not primarily concerned with immediate gratification of our collective desire to nail the so called Republican (really they are no true Republican, but just thugs and traitors) operatives that appear to have done this. Did we expect her to try to get a recount across the country and to flip the election our way? That seems unrealistic and not well enough aligned to her stated aims to my analysis. Maybe RR made a mistake by trumpeting BBV's efforts without making sure they were really on the same wavelength. That wouldn't necessarily be BH's fault, but more a function of our own overheated longings to see things done in the way WE would run them. We are free to set up our own organizations that will fit our expectations.

Also we don't know what kind of influence baddies who may have threatened or carried out psyop and disinformation campaigns againt here may have had on the situation. Its quite possible she's getting yanked around by the nasties through all this. We simply don't know from this distance.

So I say focus on the rest of the fraud investigations and let her go her way hoping that she'll contribute in time. She already has and I'm sure she will continue to in her own quirky quixotic way

[Old Mouse]

34. well said

If I could form sentences on this subject that concise, my fingers would be hurting a lot less right now.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

40. Yep, thanks for the input

[Kelvin Mace]

3. No one I know

has turned away from working on this. So, it is a non-issue.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[jamboi]

4. But its hard to avoid the fact that its an enormous distraction at a time

we can't afford it.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

5. Maybe not,

but they are sure spending A LOT of cycles analyzing BH.

I think we need this energy re-directed to the actual issue.

We need it and need it now.

NWAF

[Cocoa]

6. you're perpetuating the biggest lie of all

the idea that Bev Harris is a major figure in vote fraud investigations was never credible.

Her relationship to vote fraud investigations is that she cashed in on the hype. And -- either incidentally or deliberately -- she partially discredited REAL work on the issue.

[jamboi]

9. How could *anything* about BH POSSIBLY trump *'s coup. Pales in comparison

and basically at some point I have to say :shrug: about BH.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jamboi]

17. Don't understand. The WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD IS ABOUT priority

Bush is priority. BH is not. How is that any kind of deception?

[el_gato]

18. the whole bev anti-bev thing is tedious and stupid

some people want to keep that bullshit debate going at all cost

it's an effective use of the star-fuck mind set.

always worry about the personalities involved instead of dealing with the issue at hand

[jamboi]

21. Amen! n/t

[jamboi]

20. Where do you get off calling "you people a total fraud"? What "you people

are you refering to? Huh? :tinfoilhat:

[Cocoa]

24. you, Bev Harris, Wayne Madsen, ...

the Amway people, the Nigerian mail hoaxers, the guys that sell the socks on Maxwell Street in Chicago that turn out not to have feet, the people that sell gag cigars at inflated prices on the Internet, all of you people.

[el_gato]

31. so namecalling is now allowed?

[jamboi]

36. Everyone is entitled to their own evaluation of the various conspiracy

theories, and I respect that. No one is forced to believe them. I had never heard the names BH or WM until a couple of weeks ago, so when I make my evaluation on this or that issue and make my points I expect that others will too, and also that people will take a live and let live approach. I may not agree with any particular American but I will fight and die for their right to express themselves. We don't need to indulge in name calling just because we don't agree.

[Old Mouse]

35. Baited me all night

baiting you now.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

15. Disagree

As I said, I haven't even been following the BH stuff because Ohio was more important to me.

So, obviously, to me, she *isn't* a major figure.

>Her relationship to vote fraud investigations is that she cashed in >on the hype.

I doubt she has made alot of money on this issue, but I have no data. However, I think this analysis is cynical.

>And -- either incidentally or deliberately -- she partially >discredited REAL work on the issue.

This may be true, but she also brought it to the attention of the public -- so in my mind -- that redeems her somewhat.

Please don't shoot the messenger just because she may get parts of the message wrong. Remember, Conyers doesn't have all the data right now to put out a completely coherent message -- but he is taking some arrows in the back anyway in order to take this fight to the streets.

[merwin]

22. Do you even remember?

Bev was the one who broke the Diebold story in the first place, a long long time ago.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. "Calling the opposition the dark side is creepy."

I heard two repuke callers on Randi yesterday. Neither one of them was doctrinaire frothing Freeper material. In fact, I think they were on board with, at least, the clear possibility that fraud occured, but that they needed to hear mo' betta.

Fair enough. I need to hear mo' betta too, and I think that fraud clearly happened.

There are millions and millions of people in this worls who have no idea about how to get to either DU or FreePeeZ Land. That number grows every day.

If you must demonize, do so with only the deserving.

[neversaynever]

10. I find the discussions of BBV-DU internal strife entirely abhorrent

and inappropriate to this particular forum (I have posted a thread to that effect in Ask the Admins).

I wouldn't call it "petty squabbling" since there seem to be some legitimate "issues" between DU and BBV. But this is not the place, imo, to hang the dirty laundry on the line and to conduct public flogging of Bev Harris.

And it's not like DU has always acted in the most "reasonable" fashion with regard to other members.

There are always two sides to any story: the squabbles between DU and BBV are none of my business, and I don't understand why they are being posted here (esp. in light of recent posts about potential "sabateurs" infiltrating the forums).

Entirely inappropriate (and when was the last time any MAN was attacked with such nasty crap as has been posted here about bev not taking her meds--typical sexist reaction to any displeasure with whatever a woman does--if you can't attack her hairdo or her wardrobe, just attribute it to bi-polar disorder or some other DSM "symptom" -- hysteria maybe?)

I just wish you'd give the squabble its own forum and go fight it out there.

[jamboi]

12. Good points. n/t

[jamboi]

26. I like that idea: create an all-BH-all-the-time 24/7 Forum & get this shit

out of here where its hampering our efforts. Can we approach the Admin about that?

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

30. LOL -- Totally

In fact, it could just be a simplex-only, push channel. No debate needed -- full-on derision, no feedback necessary.

[Old Mouse]

37. lol n/t

[jamboi]

41. Seriously! Lets suggest it. Let the pro and con BH folks go off in corner

and slander and libel away at each other. Hate speech that's all it is and I think its unbecoming of anyone professing to be liberal or progressive.

[grasswire]

19. well said

thanks for the level-headed post.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

27. Totally agree except

I want these people to stop focusing on BH and get back to the issue at hand.

BH is going to do what she is going to do. Whatever. We have a job to do. Let's just do it.

[neversaynever]

32. Right, but you're never going to convince everyone to

shut up about Bev and "moveon" to more important matters -- obviously some people have legitimate gripes; moving into what is it week 7 of our collective post-election "trauma" or "crisis" -- where everyone's nerves, energies, bank accounts, and minds are about FRIED, it would be unreasonable to expect some people not to NEED a venue to bitch, complain, etc. -- my only suggestion is "take it outside" -- that is, to another forum -- it has gotten completely out of control here.

[jamboi]

43. So why don't we make the suggestion for a Bev Harris Forum? Good idea! n/t

[troubleinwinter]

14. Egads. Yet ANOTHER Bev thread.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

16. This was my first and my last

:bounce:

[jamboi]

23. Discouraging isn't it. Try to make a statement about priority and it gets

dragged back down into the mud. :boring:

[RaulVB]

25. Bingo! (n/t)

[SeattleRob]

28. It's all about expectations....

Conflicting personalities aside, I think the reason this entire topic hits such a raw nerve with so many people is because of expectations. People had very high expectations of Bev Harris - hoping that she would find some information to bring down the Republican administration.

I think the bigger issue - the reason we should be really angry - is the Democratic Party Establishment. They have done very little on the issue of voting integrity. Their silence is deafening and disheartening.
Because of the party's inaction, and the inaction of the mainstream press - our supposed watchdogs of power -many people have put their hope into different people - Bev, Oberman, Conyers, Madsen, et al.

Whatever happens or does not happen with this issue, I think this episode should serve as a reminder that the cloistured folks in Washington DC establishment have failed us. We need to take back the party from the bottom up!

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

33. Yep. Agreed.

[jamboi]

38. Totally, right on. n/t

[sabra]

29. Right on! Thanks for the post... n/t

[ohio_liberal]

39. It's simple really...

There is a certain shock and awe in watching Bev Harris jump the shark. People are trying to figure out WTF happened. Interest will die down eventually. Until Bev drops the next bomb, of course. ;)

[jamboi]

45. Yeah, I feel it too. Humans are fascinated by tragedy, blood and gore. So

having a BH Ruber Necking Forum would be a great sell. ;-) Seriously I do agree about the shock and all, I just want it out of this forum.

[ohio_liberal]

49. Don't forget

That there are a good many people here who feel that Karma has finally bitten her on the ass. I'm ok with some celebrating in the end zone. ;)

[jamboi]

52. Well, okay fine, but maybe we could locate the "end zone" in another forum

so that we can get on with it here.

[insane_cratic_gal]

42. Honestly I'm

trying to stay away from the Bev Drama for now.

She's not doing that much with the information that I have seen.

In the mean time We have our own issues of OH to contend with. Votes recounted, Protests to attend,fighting for election reform. We have our own battles to fight.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

44. Absolutely -- my point exactly n/t

[jamboi]

46. Resolved: The BH Drama Forum will give folks space to vent and give the

rest working room.

[goclark]

51. Dirty laundry should not be on the clothesline

for all to see.

This issue is a family matter and should, IMO, be kept within the family.

We are really giving them lots of fuel for their fire on the FRAUD issue.

With a BH Forum they can go right to it to see how we are more interested in BH than FRAUD.

I say, please put Bev on the back burner or email your hate for her to others.

The Republicans are trolling this back biting 24/7 and I hate them to see that we don't have our act together.

You better believe that they are not wasting their time on petty stuff.

They keep their dirty laundry in the closet.

Wish we would learn that lesson.

[jamboi]

53. Maybe the 24/7 Bev Drama Forum could be for members only??? Somehow we

need to shove this aside so we can get on with it.

[goclark]

54. For Members Only Would Be Nice

and maybe it should have some guidelines.
For example, I would not want to be a part of it because I have not been here long enough to be mad at Bev. I have no idea of the history.

Maybe the people that have been here for the last 2 years can participate. If not, all you will get is more freepers watching us self destruct and biting one of our own.

Unless I missed something, she has been helping us all these month when NO ONE was interested in BBV.

For that I am eternally grateful.

Keep our eye on the PRIZE!

If not we will surely not win this war fighting our own soldiers.

[jamboi]

57. Yeah, I like the idea that there be a cut off date for when people 2 join.

That sounds promising. 2 years ago is probably overly restrictive, but something like that idea I think is good. Friendly fire is self-destructive by definition.

[Old Mouse]

47. I was a lurker for a long time

and have come to trust particular long time DU'ers as fair, or at least their posting habits have convinced me they are trying to be intellectually honest.

That's the best tool this system of communication has to judge veracity - comparative lit.

The whole Bev Harris thing shows how personality can slow our whole center of dissent down to a crawl. What was our strength has become our vulnerability.

[jamboi]

48. The problem for liberals is free speech brings with it vulnerability. Its

a tough ideal to maintain, especially when the juices start flowing or when someone deliberately uses it against you, via PsyOps & DisInfo. I think making a separate forum would be helpful.

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

50. Yep -- Principles not Personality n/t

[Old Mouse]

55. its only getting worse

the only thing people love more than heroes is watching them fall.

[jamboi]

58. Because people project all their hopes/expectations onto heroes. And then

when they don't live up to unrealistic expectations they feel betrayed. If they were thinking clearly they would realize they have to be their own heroes and not expect humans to be superhuman.