Self-Imposed Silence of the Dems - Post your theories here.

[mattclearing]

The senators. Jimmy Carter. Howard Dean. Terry McAuliffe.

Notable liberals: Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, etc.

People in a position to know: Mitofsky, Zogby, John Kerry.

There are a lot of people who should be speaking out right now.

Please hypothesize your thoughts on why these people are not talking about election fraud.

And don't tell me they don't know.

They totally know.

[chelsea0011]

1. Cowards, or they are talking and the media isn't covering it

[Freddie Stubbs]

106. So, are the blogs ignoring them too?

:shrug:

[UTdem]

2. maybe

Because Sean Hannity told them to "Get Over It"?

[pacalo]

134. Cute, UTdem. :)

:hi: Welcome to DU!

[cap]

3. both the evidence must be overwelming

and the support of the grass roots must be overwelming. As far as I can see neither of these are in place. Just look at our own message boards when it comes time for action. No one is going to the rallies.

[mattclearing]

7. Yeah, because no one has given the "Go" signal.

If JK/JE said the word, or if Bill Clinton said he was convinced this election was stolen, you would see bedlam.

What are they afraid of/waiting for?

Not a rhetorical question.

I have my thoughts on this, but I am interested in what everyone else thinks.

[The Flaming Red Head]

16. They all live in mansions what do they care about average people?

[Razorback_Democrat]

40. Bingo! You hit the nail on the head!

They're busy putting their investments in foreign interests so when the dollar collapses they are still solvent.

I don't believe our founders thought being a politician would ever become a career path. It was a duty to serve, and then you went back to your real job.

[m.standridge]

49. Well, and it's not like the courts

are exactly on the Demos' side.
The Ohio Supreme Court is GOP appointee-dominated, and, needless to say, so is US Sup. Ct.
Although, if this could be resolved at lower court level in Kerry's favor, by the end of Dec., Rehnquist wouldn't be there, and it would default to the lower court ruling.
Had we had that situation in 2000, for example, we might be talking about President Gore right now.
Also: if Bush did legitimately edge out an Electoral College win, or even if he just has a Popular vote lead, it's partly because of Democrats--sometimes low-income Democrats--being swayed by media propaganda and rhetoric, and voting for Commander-in-Chief Dubya.
There have been a couple of rather disconcerting articles in the media to the effect of African-American voters turning out for the GOP more this time. However, I did notice they've had to back away from one claim that Hispanics were out there more for the GOP this time.

[elizm]

142. I think you just said it...

It would be bedlam...Maybe they are trying to figure out how to handle it...carefully.

[New Earth]

4. maybe they don't want a partisan battle?

they just want nature to take its course without all the partisan bickering???

[mattclearing]

9. I was thinking alleging fraud is "the nuclear option"

Perhaps this will break both parties if it goes down, and there are some things they simply will not do to each other. The recriminations that would result from this are too dangerous for us.

We can't handle the truth, maybe?

[Snivi Yllom]

37. 'THE NUCLEAR OPTION' an apt analogy

And there had be a pretty clear and demanding need for a nuclear option based on hard fact. Those hard facts dont exist.

[libertypirate]

46. It's the only way to win this..

If the dems make a big deal before they make a clear case, rethugs will take sides. Make the case first, and rethugs will have to ponder getting associated with the crime.

[mattclearing]

50. I like it.

eom.

[KittyWampus]

5. They Are Waiting For The Foundation To Be Laid Before Building A Case

[mattclearing]

13. Possible. But what about Arnebeck saying JK/Skull & Bones?

You would think if JK were seriously building a case, Arnebeck would be aware and not allege on the record that maybe JK is abiding by Bonesman rules.

[Verve]

14. WoW! When did he say this? n/t

[KittyWampus]

30. Please provide quote where ARENEBECK says this about "Bonesmen".

and AFAIC, anyone who mentions this in regards Kerry is deluded.

[mattclearing]

41. I read it yesterday...was a transcript of something, lemme find it.

I will find it and edit it in here.

http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=arnebeck+skull


This is it.

[naryaquid]

53. ...Arnebeck did say that.in a C-span or CNN interview. He posed.

it as sort of a sarcastic possibility..and he's not the only one to do so, although I'm not sure how seriously people consider it...
The "word" about Skull & Bones is that it IS much more serious than people generally realize...These folks keep in touch and "help" each other professionally all their lives...

From what I know of Skull & Bones, I've personally never felt very comfortable about JK's involvement..especially when I found that it wasn't just some frat boy thing...It seems to be based on the idea that the members are all people "of great promise"...destined for "great things"..which in turn, seems to square with JK's aspirations and what others have said about him.

When Kerry emerged as Numero Uno in the Primaries, he was asked about his involvement with S & K...The answer?.."John Kerry has nothing to say about Skull & Bones"

..It would really be appalling to think that he'd place the "brotherhood" over the good of the country..!

[KittyWampus]

122. Ah, Good To Know He Was Being Sarcastic. You Know, Masons Also

"keep in touch" and help one another out professionally as do Rotary Club memebers, Knights of Columbus and Elks....

Hell, I'm sure Fred Flintstone and Barney helped out fellow Water Buffalos...

IT'S NORMAL.

Like if 25 DU'ers met up monthly... they'd end up throwing business to each other etc.

Kerry was BORN into the "Ruling Class" but didn't lay back and allow daddy's friends to bankroll a debauched lifestyle.

[ginnyinWI]

94. That smelled like a red herring to me! n/t

[idealista]

161. isn't it time to go back and examine the skull and bones by laws

We need to get Bush thrown out retroactively by some infraction, or that fact that he is a war criminal and of repugnant character - aren't these organizations all concerned with (percieved) character? Bush is such an embarassment.

Maybe in his less busy moments, Arnebeck could litigate that too.

Or are these all about lineage and entitlement, regardless of honor?

[The Flaming Red Head]

6. Moore helped put Bush in the WH the first time

and some the others have spoken out.

[naryaquid]

10. ....How did Moore help put Bush in the WH the first time?

[mattclearing]

11. Helped Nader.

edited to note: Gore won.

[The Flaming Red Head]

12. Yeah but Gore would have won by a lot more if......

Edited to add I loved F911 and Roger and Me, and I hope he makes more movies, but...........

[enfield collector]

45. without bush* moore has no material.

[katinmn]

8. my theories

1)they don't know what to do - MSM hardly receptive
2)fearful of retaliation (economic)

[mattclearing]

21. Retaliation, I buy. Not so sure about economic, though.

And like I said, the MSM would love to report something this juicy if someone with solid media clout (sorry JJ) would make a real statement on the record.

[bunny planet]

67. Why can't we make them afraid of retaliation from us. We will vote for

third party candidates from now on unless prominent Democrats come forward and speak out about this.

[dkofos]

78. You forgot

3.MSM is Complicit

[SueZhope]

15. I just posted this on another thread..it works well here also

I have come to believe
A) Some have closed there minds and are not reading the information available

B) Some agree the election was rigged yet since its not an easy case to
prove they decided not to fight

C) MOST are just chicken shit wimps ,they talk of democracy
but are only political careerists, who perhaps don’t even
know why they got involved in politics in the frist place

 

[mattclearing]

17. I don't buy that.

Like I said, they totally know. Their silence speaks volumes. What they're actually saying with it, however, is why I started this thread.

[rabid_nerd]

31. It's the difference between us and the Ukraine

It was all Yuchenkos (sic?) supporters crying foul, all his supporters in the streets, all his supporters in the seige.

In a democracy we need to stop looking at the BOTTOM OF THE POWER LADDER for the signal to move.

The power in a democracy BEGINS with the PEOPLE.

Even as a local elected official, with state handbooks, the "organizational chart" of a town shows:

* Voters
* Council ~ Mayor
* appointed people ~ Police

etc..

But the Voters are at the TOP.

Yeah, the voters are OUT there, but not like they were in the Ukraine, not even like they were in March 2003 for Iraq!

So what does this mean?

Without THE PEOPLE speaking en masse and in massive volumes, they are silent because of the majority rule, even within our own party.

Yeah that sucks. I disagree with the sentiment. Wrong is wrong and should be stood up against no matter what.

However, you don't have OUTRAGE IN MASSACHUSETTS (Kerry's home state) about Ohio, so why should Kerry act? After all, Mass. is highly Democratic, right? So if the pressure was going to come, it shoudl come from Mass. consituents.

Just some random theories. Take them with grains of salt.

[Chimpanzee]

124. This is completely the MSM's fault - lack of accountability

If nobody knows anything about the fraud, why would they even know ANYTHING about it?

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. Perhaps they actually believe that Bush won

Either that or Karl Rove's mind control device is fully operational.

[mattclearing]

19. I have a hard time with that too.

Michael Moore? Totally accepting of it, even while posting links to stories about election fraud allegations?

Zogby? He sent a rep to the Conyers hearing. He has implied to people that he can't discuss it.

Why?

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. There is election fraud every year

The question is, was there enough this time to change the result? Apperently for most people, they have yet to be convinced.

[mattclearing]

26. This may be right.

But I think Howard Dean knows that it's possible. And Zogby believed in his polls, which had VIRGINIA competitive. That kind of thing would have changed the result.

[SueZhope]

25. more thoughts

"they dont want to stress out the people"

they decided its better to leave it be so no one has to
feel "yucky"like in 2000......

Or perhaps they just want to watch the Bush crime family get its due justice
by continuing on there path to DOOM

[The Flaming Red Head]

20. Or maybe they're afraid of Cheney and his minions.

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. If Moore were afraid of Cheney, he would not have produced F-911

[MarkusQ]

98. My most paranoid fear

Suppose Kerry was "given" the nomination by rigging the primaries (shutting out Dean, who at the time looked like the obvious winner) in the same way that the general election was rigged. Suppose that whoever did this did it specifically to avoid another 2000 style conflict--maybe they knew that Kerry wouldn't fight it, or had blackmail material, or...who knows.

The point is once we realize someone is rigging the general election why are we so confident that the primaries were honest?

--MarkusQ

[BlueDog2u]

140. Good question

I know that at the time Kerry started winning, some Deaniacs alleged fraud. I don't know how plausible the case was. Others said that media crucified Dean with the "war whoop," which is quite true. Either way, of course, it was rigged against him. Except that the second form of rigging is considered legal and fair play.

[Must_B_Free]

153. The entire attack on Dean WAS fraudulent

because it never happened.

Noone ever heard Dean over the roar of the crowd, until the media isolated the sound of his lavalier mic.

If you were at the event, nothing happened. The entire thing was created by media editing.

[Patsy Stone]

23. All part of the plan

Call me nuts. I can't believe it's a coincidence.

Did Al Sharpton forget about Civil Rights? No.
Did Michael Moore forget about the BFEE? No.

I think there's a bigger plan at work here.

[mattclearing]

28. I do too. I am trying to figure out what it is.

eom.

[Patsy Stone]

33. OK here goes... My Doctoral Thesis

There could be no Sore Loserman this time. The Dems know they were “out-lawyered” in 2000. No one expected that fight to reach all the way up to the Supreme Court (remember, btw, who ran there first) and most certainly no one expected the SCOTUS to tell Florida to stop counting. This time, to avoid that soap opera and the anointing of another President, both sides needed a plan.

So, what if the Glibs, the DNC, Kerry/Edwards, the Congressional Black Caucus, Jesse Jackson, Michael Moore, Ralph Nader, the Alliance for Democracy, Al Sharpton and all of the other Democratic Presidential candidates, are all working together towards a bigger, badder goal? Would I like to see Kerry in the White House? You bet! Maybe, though, this isn’t about that… Let’s not forget who we’re dealing here: on both sides.

John Kerry: Prosecutor, BCCI and Iran-Contra investigator, Senator, soldier. Kerry took on not only the Bush clan and its friends, but also the CIA, and members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. His motivations (and of course, it is completely possible I’m just talking out of my butt here) may not be that complicated. The possibility of a Grand Plan is the kind of “magic bullet theory” I can spend a good two or three days mulling over.

You send the third parties out to check the ballots, file the recount lawsuits, and take the heat. You only intimate yourself into the process when it is absolutely necessary -- maybe like when a lone County decides it has better things to do with its time and money than recount the ballots. How about when (since there’s a recount going on anyway) you get your lawyers in there to make sure that they look at your votes also. To paraphrase a statement from the campaign: Who amongst us doesn’t think Kerry’s lawyers have been in Ohio all this time?

What else would you do if you were “flying under radar?” Would you send out that weird “man-in-exile” video that was so message-laden I felt I should have played it backwards to get all of them? Would you send your team out and ask them to all say the same exact thing, “We are not contesting the outcome of this election?” “We don’t think this will change the outcome.”

Jesse Jackson, so conspicuous in his absence, that it alone seems like a “tell,” is scheduled to come out first. Finally, the DNC mentions voting irregularities and disenfranchisement. What do you do, if you’re looking to build a case? Do you gather evidence (perhaps your brother, Cam Kerry, the lawyer, could help?), and testimony and affidavits? Would you wait until it is past the time when it looks like you’re a sore loser, and then say you’re just doing it for the people? That’s not a lie -- we did ask him to fight for our votes in e-mails and faxes and phone calls, after all. First rule of lawyering: Never ask a question that you don’t know the answer to.

Okay, so, now you’re Karl Rove (Sorry! Go with it for a second). Would you waste your time with the small fish? Would you bring out the Master Plan for World Domination and the Great American Spin Machine when your opponents are so much weaker? No, you wouldn’t. Think Sun Tzu.

But what if you stalled, blocked, and obfuscated until the only remaining recourse was for your true opponent to come out from his hiding place? Wouldn’t you want that? You bet you would. You would make sure your machinations were ready, that your spinners were warming up in the wings. All of the forced outrage about the colossal waste of time and money that “counting the votes” entails; the righteous indignation (I can still hear James Baker III: “All the votes have been counted and counted again” and of course, they hadn’t been) and the conspiracy theorists who belong in their padded cells, who must be behind the whole thing. It’s all just waiting for Kerry to jump in the fray. No warrior would walk lightly into that trap.

So, that’s where I am. I see every move Kerry makes as calculated. I do not believe for a second that Al Sharpton suddenly forgot about disenfranchising the African-American voter, yet, until very recently, he’s been as silent as the grave. The silence, in fact, has been deafening all around -- Left and Right. I do not believe Kerry’s eleven-point request was an afterthought, I think it’s the next step. In an interesting, “Damn! That’s gonna keep me up all night!” moment: that was the title of that underground Kerry video.

The last piece of this is this puzzle is this alleged “media blackout.” Originally, since it was Bev Harris who said it, I didn’t believe it. I don’t think we live in a police state yet, so the whole “blackout” seemed slightly over the top -- but not entirely impossible. Not until Randi Rhodes mentioned the other day that she felt pressured not to talk about the situation did I start thinking about this again. No one at Air America would tell her to shut up about this. They knew she had an interest in making sure the election was fair. She wouldn’t have renewed her contract if there were an issue with her position on this. Therefore, is it possible that the “blackout” came not from the media itself, but from the top of the DNC, possibly even the Kerry/Edwards campaign? Hmmm?

[mattclearing]

38. Disco. I think we have a winner.

This sounds correct, and accounts for many strings left hanging. It passes the smell test, certainly.

Actually, on further readings, this is brilliant analysis. Thanks.

[Patsy Stone]

43. My pleasure

I had it ready because I actually bothered to send this out to someone in the MSM. I don't care if they think I'm crazy. I like to try to see if I can make some sense out of the nonsense. This is what I came up with. Maybe it's too pat and convenient, but I can't believe everyone just walked away. Why? Why would they? It's not like Kerry lost 80/20. The difference is only 2 million+ votes. Why would there be such a public hand-wringing? Oh, woe is us... We're just wrong-headed here in the DNC. Nooooo.

Thanks for the external validation. If nothing else, I got this out of my head. Peace.

[mattclearing]

48. This is exactly what I was looking for too. Validation.

The next question is, "So now what?"

To what end? They are playing for all the marbles, if this is the case. The implications of this are international, financial, etc. It is too huge to contemplate all the ramifications, as someone said below.

[Patsy Stone]

54. Impeachment?

Criminal Proceedings? Another illegitimate Presidency? Taking down the BFEE once and for all? Showing them for the bastards they are?

Remember that "accidentally caught on tape" moment where JK told that campaign worker that this was the biggest bunch of liars and thieves? He knew. He knew they were going to do it again.

Either this is all part of something, or Katherine Blackwell is just so award-winningly stupid that next he's gonna go ask for the deposit back on the rental van...

[mattclearing]

58. Truly amazing, isn't it?

You can just imagine Karl Rove sitting at his desk contemplating Kerry's strategy and remarking in his best Darth Vader:

"Impressive."

[m.standridge]

60. Moby Florida

The GOP loves Florida.
It's a status symbol.
They want it to be a red state.
But Florida is the great White whale.
Captain Dubya
Thar she blows--again.
Got his leg (credibility) before.
He's out there--his henchmen--e-mailing back and forth, to make sure those computers are "right." To get his revenge: no more injury, humiliation, that a SOUTHERN state, ESPECIALLY the VACATION state, the DISNEY state, could so humiliate and embarass a young and coming from Texas, offspring of the great Senior Bush.
And so he casts off in the long boat, for one final harpooning. He calls out to his subordinates, make sure the water's right. He sends them an e-mail. They send out their e-mails. Aye aye, cap'n. Their e-mails back--the cable--catches around his leg. But he has already thrown the harpoon.
Up comes the great White whale again.
Could he have carried it without dabbling? Maybe.
But he didn't. He dabbled. It's clear. It's probably provable.

[Amaryllis]

158. Don't know about the accidently caught on tape moment; more info please?

[dkofos]

92. If your theory is correct,

and I believe it has merit, we may have to wait until Jan 6 for the shit to hit the fan.

[Patsy Stone]

99. Watergate took years... Patience! n/t

[SeattleRob]

You may be on to something....

A lot of what your post said makes sense - If this was the case, it would be great to get some kind of wink or nod to know that we're not alone in our frustration.

The other possibility that would make sense (that was mentioned by others)is fear. A lot of the people who should be speaking up perhaps are just too frightened to come out and say what they believe because they don't have concrete proof. Think about it - these folks have aspirations for furthering their political careeers. If they came out and used the F(Fraud) word, they would be lambasted by the Rove/Media Spin machine. This is a powerful force that has crushed many good people - truth tellers.

[mattclearing]

52. Maybe that's what the video was...a wink/nod.

Truth tellers are a powerful force as well.

And Rove won't speak to it until someone throws down the gauntlet.

[SeattleRob]

56. True...

The strategy used by Rove is simple: Ignore the issue. If you can't ignore it, ridicule. If ridicule doesn't work, go into full attack mode.

[mattclearing]

59. Yeah, and Gandhi told us how that strategy ends.

eom

[naryaquid]

57. ..."Title of an underground Kerry video"?...What's this?

[s-cubed]

68. Patsy - I LOVE your posts. You are always such a voice of reason,

calm, and optimism. I couldn't agree with you more on the idea that the silence is planned: it has to be! Nobody could shut up Al Sharpton if he didn't want to be. If one of the big guys starts talking, Rove & his henchmen will be all over them, just like they pilloried Rather. They must be so frustrated to have to hold back, while the story leaks out and gets bigger.

I once had a colleague at work who was always trying to pull my chain. It was so much fun to refuse to rise to his bait, and watch him stew because he couldn't get me to bite.

Patsy, :yourock:

[Patsy Stone]

69. Thanks, Doll!

Right back 'atcha!:yourock:

[Catamount]

71. Isn't this what many of us hoped all along? n/t

[gordianot]

75. That is plausible. Also remember there is a crime in progress now in Ohio?

Got rope?

[seito]

76. PATSY Stone Does it Again

A most excellent analogy of current events. You should make this a separate post. I think a lot of people could benefit from your insight here.

The conspiracy of silence is astonishing. Take away the allegations of fraud, and you are left with unbelievable acts of voter intimidation and suppression perpetrated against the poor and minority citizens of Ohio and Florida. WHY ISN'T ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT???????

According to the Arnebeck lawsuit, that was all a smoke screen to hide the more sinister acts of fraud. The silence is very much calculated. Neither side, apparently, wants media attention in this right now. There is an intense strategy going on. It was to the benefit of the Kerry campaign to feign only mild interest in the events in Ohio until the last possible moment. I believe that the enemy never thought we would get this far.

Now, once the pressure is on, and the evil doers are hastily and sloppily trying to cover their tracks. The Greens, Libs, Dems, Independents, the ABB etc are all united in this. There is a reason that we are not hearing from them and it has nothing to do with SKULL and BONES and everything to do with saving this Democracy. That will be very apparent once "the prosecutor" steps up with evidence in hand.

Look how far we have gotten with this strategy. Last time the Supreme Court stopped the investigation before it really got started.

The clincher for me has always been the silence. Listen carefully to the people that are talking and what they are saying. Do not assume that everything our side is telling the media is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Look carefully at who is not talking and ask yourself why.

If that hasn't convinced you, know this. The only thing that will help now is hard evidence of fraud. I believe that we have that in hand. If John Kerry wants us in the street, he will call for that. For now, we are much better off spreading the word through a massive grass roots effort.

Keep the Faith

No Retreat No Surrender

[mattclearing]

83. Thanks for this.

This is all so reassuring.

The temptation to believe the worst has gotten to many in this forum. What you have said is right, and leaves me feeling calm and purposeful.

I am continuing my efforts, and patiently waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[Patsy Stone]

145. Me too

Sometimes though, I'm sure I'm just nuts. Arnebeck's two new lawsuits do give me some small comfort that I live in the reality-based world. All eyes on Ohio...

[ginnyinWI]

103. it would be better not to make this a separate post

wouldn't you think? After all, we are also a part of the media.

[Patsy Stone]

117. Yes...

I like it hidden in here...

[FredStembottom]

82. Patsy Stone, that was a Grand Slam

I've been reading here at DU since November 3rd.
This is what I hoped to find here. Brilliant analysis like yours.
It fits the evidence perfectly and shows that what we all hope for most is the most likely scenario.
:toast:

[Patsy Stone]

85. From your mouth... And mine! Thanks. n/t

[Catamount]

88. Hello Patsy, great work as always...Question

Did you ever send that letter to Rachel from the BBC? (11/2)
Would love to know,
Thanks

[Patsy Stone]

90. Yes!

And, not surprisingly, no response. Oh, well... Another loose end. I'm losing track of them all.

[Catamount]

96. Thanks for trying!n/t

[understandinglife]

127. Check this.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=168765#168778

;-)

[bunny planet]

143. Just read this today.

Thank you so much for this boss post. I have had such a hard time holding on during this roller coaster ride (and it hasn't even really begun yet), posts like this one, that really do make sense, and reflect what I've been feeling intuitively myself, are very comforting. You rule Patsy!

;-)

[Must_B_Free]

154. Meanwhile - look at the media's offerings

They have been destroying Bush since Nov 3 with failure after failure, all very subtle, so they can toe the official line, but the implications are damaging.

My read is that the right has some official control over the overt message, but the left is slipping in major damage sort of under the radar of the rightist editors.

[Raksha]

163. Thanks, Patsy.

I just saved your post, and may send it out to some of my friends who know about my obsession with this stolen election. What you said has been my thinking too, but I didn't put the pieces together as well as you did. The clincher for me is that nobody could shut Al Sharpton up unless he was willing to be shut up (for now anyway), and the same goes for Michael Moore. I just can't see him of all people believing this election was NOT rigged, and if he says it wasn't he must have a very good reason for doing it.

[SueZhope]

35. Hi Patsy

I always love your posts.....I want to believe this

I would think there would have been some leaks in that plan....
I cant imagine them all being on the same page with this.
They would have to have coordinated this silence...

That would require alot of organizational skills , do they have them?

[mattclearing]

36. That is the question that gets me. It is amazingly disciplined,

considering the track record.

[Patsy Stone]

44. Right out of the Rovian Psyops Handbook... n/y

[tex-wyo-dem]

39. I hope you're right....

And I've thought the same thing.

I can't help but think, though, that the Dems in congress and other positions of power know that this would mean a constitutionl crisis of unprecidented levels. If you're going to open your mouth you'd better be damn sure of what you're alleging is true and have mountains of evidence to back you up.

As far as MM and the rest of the hollywood crowd...I don't know what to think about this.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

42. Not only is it a Constitutional Crisis, but it's

treason. And anarchy. Our Government/Country has been hijacked - and from within.

They need to have a strong case because once/if they come out, they have to be ready to be accused of the same. If this is what they are doing - this has never happened before.

How the hell will the country survive something like this? I know most of us on DU would be able to - but think about the rest of the country. This is HUGE. It's frightening.


(I agree w/Pasty's thesis - I have been thinking this all along)

[mattclearing]

55. Yeah, just want to make sure I respond to this.

Because you are so right about the implications of it all.

[tex-wyo-dem]

62. Yep, constitutional crisis, not to mention...

an economic one. You can bet the markets would take a huge dive if such allegations were brought forward, and during the holiday buying season no less.

The Dems would get torched, unless the evidence is so damning that no one would be able to refute it.

In other words...

It all depends on the evidence that comes to light between now and Jan. 6 if any contest will be presented...and it will have to be a lot of hard evidence...evidence that will paint a picture that not even Rep. congressmen can stomach.

[mattclearing]

64. That kind of evidence will sink the Republican Party.

They are too intricately entwined with the BFEE now. Even McCain will go down with the ship.

[buzzard]

114. I think the economy will take a big hit in any case.n/t

[mattclearing]

118. You are likely right.

And the BFEE will be prepared to cash in, as usual.

[Eloriel]

24. In denial

They've been in denial for a lotta years now. It's getting old. We need to find people who can -- and will -- face up to, acknowledge and speak the truth.

[mattclearing]

34. Perhaps, but I kinda doubt it.

But you are right. "Never underestimate the power of denial."

[pgh_dem]

27. Susan Sarandon

Haven't heard anything else from her, but the week after the election, she did allege widespread fraud in Ohio on Bill Maher's show. Mostly she focused on the long lines, the challengers and the pattern of power abuse by Blackwell as coChair *-C campaign/SoS.
Her allegation wasn't well received, sort of shrugged off as sour grapes by Maher.
I guess it wouldn't be politically incorrect enough to agree that disenfranchising African-Americans in Ohio IS election fraud.

[mattclearing]

29. I know. She shut up quick about it, didn't she?

It's like everyone has been handed NO-talking points.

[Stew225]

32. My feeling is that we don't have leaders anymore, simply

politicians, the latter being the most grotesque life form on this planet. In fact, the true leaders and smart ones can't even bring themselves down to this lower rung of societal status.

I think that because of extreme cases of insecurity these people have to overcompensate by acquiring positions of power. The legit leader and/or smart person has enough confidence to admit to themselves and others that they want no part of this sham.

Remember, it was Hymie Schnauzzer who once said, "Power corrupts; Absolute power is worth more money." Unfortunately, after making this statement during a campaign speech in Iowa where he was running for the office of Secretary of the Sex Chequer, he was attacked by a mob wielding sausages and beaten to death.

[wiggs]

102. Unfortunately correct

I'm going to go with Pasty for another week or two, because it is odd that Kerry could concede so quickly and inconceivable that his attorneys told him Nov 3 that there were no voting problems. Attorneys could find a way to arrest Jimmy Carter for brushing his teeth if they wanted to...there's no way any attorney would say there's no action to be taken 12 hours after an election.

But...one of the major disappointments for me in the campaign and election is the realization that our democratic leaders in Washington are in this for themselves. They are wealthy and in power. They don't, by and large, represent us. They don't want to rock the boat. How many were willing to stand up and call the administration on the last 4 years of ineptitude? 3 or 4?

It is not democrats vs republicans, not freepers vs DUr's...it is all of us against all of those in power in Washington.

[SueZhope]

47. If we take them at there own words ..its the numbers

Perhaps to them its just about the Ohio numbers....

They think that even if there was fraud its not enough fraud to turn over the election to Kerry so they decided to go back to sleep....

This is much less controversial and this gives them the easy way out .

[mbee]

51. They are creating a decoy by saying the chimp won and

all the time they're in the background laying the groundwork to prove the election fraud. They're going to finally beat the bullies at their own game. I will be SWEET!

[trudyco]

61. Well in 2000 I thought Gore got talked into letting it go...

because it could cause a civil war. The problem is that in 4 years it got much worse. Could the Dems be so stupid to not see the evoting fraud? The fact that neofascists were getting elected into congress and the Senate in record numbers?

I am really worried and hoping the silence is a plan and not fear - or hoping that the RNC will just implode on itself and the Dems can walk in afterwards. There are a lot of scary signs - FBI not investigating the fraud, and FBI agents who protest told to not be "insubordinate"; the silence of the media about this and the fraud in general; the AP person and investigative reporter dieing in the same weekend; kids getting visits from the Secret Service for saying "unamerican" things??? - the Secret Service seems to be warping into a different kind of SS; the purging of the CIA; the falling off of Osama Bin Laden from the radar right after the election (didn't the Pakistanis decide he was dead and just stopped looking for him?) - and what about his attack? Why didn't he attack the whitehouse during a press conference when the president would be there? What could have been more symbolic than getting the president? Why was the whitehouse the last (supposedly) target? Shouldn't it have been the first?; the lack of transparency on who runs the AP and its predominance in news and the stonewalling of where it got its election night numbers; the crackdown on what can and can't be aired on TV....

I wonder what all those bright Jews were thinking, the leaders of the Jewish quarters in various towns, when they decided to go quietly into the night? Were they thinking the enemy can't be that bad? That if it is that bad somebody in power will step up and stop it? That the opposition had to implode if its that bad? Boy, I sure hope the Dems aren't thinking like that.

Yeah, heavy stuff. On top of it, I can't make heads or tails of why the US would piss off the Russians by paying for the exit poll and staging the protests in the Ukraine.

trudyco

[mattclearing]

63. It almost seems like a trap set by the Kerry people.

And the Ukraine thing is gloating on behalf of the Bushes.

[donkeyotay]

72. Nice post. Depressing, but accurate, I think.

Anyone remember the term "The Establishment" from the 60s? It seems to me that people who have the most to lose are the least able to see any of the deep structural problems with our politics. Don't rock the boat; keep cashing those checks. But, hey, even the most desperately poor American has it pretty damned good! We live like royalty compared to most, so who wants to give that up?

So, I'd like to think there's a plan, but I think the silence is denial - or for those entertaining the possibility that America isn't a 50s sitcom - abject, cold fear.

We keep sweeping the corruption under the rug, and the corruption keeps growing. The chances of a successful course correction grow ever slimmer. Keeping quiet seems like the less painful option, but I think not prosecuting crimes like, for example, the Iran-contra scandal is what got us here in the first place.

[mattclearing]

77. I am inclined to believe John Kerry agrees with you.

That is why I think there must be a plan. Is your invoking of Iran/Contra intentionally self-contradictory?

[donkeyotay]

87. For me, it's too soon to tell

One of the reasons I supported Kerry is because he has to know about the corruption Iran-contra represents, but as to whether or not he would take it on as president... well, we may never know now. I'm not fully convinced that he would have because of the sheer magnitude of the problem. I'd like to think Kerry was our champion, but I was (and still am) waiting for more proof.

[mattclearing]

89. Time will tell, but no one is in a better position to put an end to it.

Kerry is probably the only person who has taken on the Bushes and won without getting destroyed (See Bill Clinton).

The MSM never reported the Iran/Contra subtext during the election, but it is a BIG subtext.

[intelle]

65. My thoughts

If Kerry jumped full-force into the fray right now, it is doubtful that he would get much support from the courts. And, as many have pointed out, he would be demonized by the right.

But, what if fraud could be proven on a grand scale, so much so, that even members of the right who were not involved could not deny it. And, what if this proof is a culmination of quiet, lengthy investigation?

Wouldn't it be better to have this pall over the current administration (with possible impeachment proceedings)once fraud is proven without a doubt, then to have had Kerry fight and have the investigations overshadowed by the cry from the right?

I personally believe that the truth will win out in the end. But, I don't think it is something that will happen overnight, and I think we all need to be patient and firm in our resolve to help expose as much fraud as possible.

[mattclearing]

66. I agree.

And they are making bad moves. People who voted for them wouldn't today, not after Fallujah's timing and open admission of cutting Social Security.

They should be conciliatory, but like MM said, they are sore winners.

[intelle]

74. And as they say

"Pride goeth before a fall"

[Old Mouse]

70. They think this battle already lost

and are afraid of the Bush/Rove attack machine, and constrained by the rules of the system they defend.

There's a lot more freedom to operate down here.

But don't worry. Once the bloggers and revolutionaries pop the story open they will swoop in to support.

[Cocoa]

79. they're all in on it

trust NO ONE, except for Wayne Madsen. :-)

[FredStembottom]

80. It's just too, too quiet

I am impressed by the total silence of all the folks mentioned in the original message. It's so complete and utter. I find that interesting and can easily fit a theory to it.

If the fraud is as widespread as it now looks and the Bushites are as unprecedentedly dangerous as so many of us think, there may be a large amount of information being gathered, quietly, so as to wallop the Administration with one big knockout blow. Leaking bits and pieces beforehand might be seen as providing too much opportunity for reactions from the Bushites and their Congressional courtiers.

There are other, more depressing explanations but the completeness of this silence really sticks out to my mind and certainly indicates something unusual underneath.

[seito]

91. Bingo!!!!

Never let the enemy know the true nature of your capabilities. What we know, the enemy knows. Wait until the last possible moment and they are backed into a corner. Then hit them with everything at once.

My personal believe is that the evidence that has come to light is just the tip of this iceberg of fraud and criminal activity. I believe there is much more evidence in hand, hat has not yet been made public.

[s-cubed]

101. Do you suppose Ohio might be a decoy: that the real story is

being developed elsewhere by the dems?

[seito]

104. I believe that this issue

is a deep chasm and that a thorough investigation will lead all the way to the top. Will the evidence come to light in time to overturn the election...Not likely, but I still have hope.

Will it be enough to totally destroy the BFEE? I believe it will.

No Retreat No Surrender

[Liberalynn]

81. IMHO It's A Strategy n/t

[Patsy Stone]

86. No! Strategery! :) n/t

[understandinglife]

119. Hi Patsy -- compelling hypothesis and...

....as you know from some of our exchanges and other items posted here and at dKos by me, I've taken the stance that what is unfolding in the current national election process is way beyond 'Kerry winning; Bush winning.'

Several weeks ago it was obvious to me and others that 'we the people' have lost if we allow the current national election to stand.

Our 'more perfect union' and the 200+ years of extraordinary efforts to expand the scope of ideals embodied in the original Constitution, will be trashed if we allow this election to stand.

I also think it unlikely that Senator Kerry, Edwards and their colleagues simply strolled into the current election process without a comprehensive plan and preparations to deal with what they had many reasons to suspect.

And, then we have the timing of Moss v Bush. If one needed a 'clue' to the existence of a 'plan,' I think waiting until mid-morning EST on the 13th of December, 2004, to file that suit signaled a very clear 'clue.' Specifically, they are and have been focused on 6 Jan 2005. I think both our fellow citizens and humanity throughout the world are about to participate in a real-time, reality-based 'civics class' -- an unprecedented attempt to rescue a franchise of democracy from collapse.

That 'civics class' will begin in the US Senate, move to the House of Representatives (the house of the people) and will conclude with exactly the outcome that is at the core of why I consider your hypothesis probable -- Senator Kerry knows he would never want to be "President" based on an election that defrauded, that systematically disenfranchised any of our fellow citizens.

The findings about this election, already available to everyone and so eloquently described by shanikka in her "Folks Don't Get It" diary, can have only one logical, ethical outcome -- re-vote; and, do it with a mechanism that is equitable and that ensures each voter knows their vote is counted as they intended.

[Quakerfriend]

93. I love this thread

And, yes the silence is deafening!

I think that JFK and JE have it in their blood to go after this gang of thugs. Think about it! It would be the biggest take down in the history of our country! And, I'm certain that they are very patient, and will bring it on just as soon as every detail is tied up! .......perhaps, in 6 mos. to a year from now.

Several weeks ago someone @ DU insinuated that all of the silence is over the impending break re: 9/11 scandal which will net numerous gov't officials on both sides of the aisle.

Lawsuits against the gov't are being filed with regard to this (see Homeland Security Forum). One lawsuit posted their ( PA) goes after the entire Bush cabal and ALSO files suit re:election fraud. Saying, "The enterprise has engaged in a conspiracy to commit election fraud" and naming DIebold, ES&S, and Sequoia in the suit!!

[mattclearing]

107. Eeeenteresting.

eom

[old blue]

84. I just emailed the following to my US Representative

I am a graduate student in the astronomy department at the University of , and a registered voter in .

I have grave concerns regarding the legitimacy of the 2004 presidential vote, and by extension, the health of our democratic process in this country. I am sure you are aware of the ongoing efforts of your colleague and fellow Michigander, Representative John Conyers, to investigate claims of voting irregularities and voter fraud during the 2004 election, particularly in the key state of Ohio. While I think it wise to remain skeptical with regards to claims of widespread election fraud--thus sticking to the principle that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"--I wholeheartedly applaud Rep. Conyers's efforts to collect and examine such evidence.

Nevertheless, evidence is accumulating that significant numbers of voters in strategically important districts were disenfranchised in this election. Tactics range from old-fashioned methods of voter suppression in minority districts (through non-uniform distribution of voting machines, resulting in disproportionate waiting times) to the even more serious and abhorrent possibility that official election tallies were hacked in a central database. The noted discrepancy between the raw, "uncalibrated" exit poll numbers and the official election results warrants, indeed demands, a full explanation--particularly in light of the respect exit polls draw in every other country's elections (see Ukraine).

If the 2004 election was indeed tainted, this must be remedied. Now. Time is short. As I'm sure you know, the U.S. Constitution provides a means for Congress to contest the electoral votes on January 6, 2005. Too much is at stake to let the current administration enact its tragically inept policies without making sure the United States citizens did indeed give them their blessing.

I urge you, Representative Dingell, to support Rep. Conyers in his efforts, and to pay close and careful attention to what he finds and concludes. Right now I consider him one of the few elected representatives who is actively guarding the principle that a legitimate government derives its power only from the governed. He should not be in the minority on this issue.

Sincerely,

my name and town

[BlueDog2u]

141. Nice letter/eom

[Mandate My Ass]

95. 40% of the Senate are millionaires or multimillionaires

Dems lag only slightly behind Repubs percentage-wise. Their portfolios are looking good so they're not making waves.

[Hamoth]

97. HUBRIS

They think we are nuts. Nothing more. They think they are so much smarter than we plebians, and that nothing like what we are describing could happen in America. They are locked into an old framework and vision of the poltical machinery, and fail, even now, to understand the degree of corruption we face with Bushco.

They think we are crazy alarmists.

[mattclearing]

113. Don't buy it. Why would Kerry file in the lawsuit if he thought that?

And Kerry knows what these people are capable of.

So do Michael Moore and Jimmy Carter.

Something is up. What that something is remains to be seen.

[Paligal]

100. As I understand, Sarandon is very vocal about fraud!!

She was reported as attempting to discuss election fraud on several shows when she was promoting "Shall We Dance", and she was ridiculed for it. So I wouldn't name her as silent on this issue. I think people are having trouble getting a platform for it. The media are just so hostile. I just saw minutes ago on MSNBC that Chevy Chase made "anti-Bush" remarks and dropped the "F-bomb", and the reporter stated "but nobody was laughing, and the remarks were insulting and highly innapropriate", though they refused to say what the actual comments were. It's a witch hunt, if you ask me.

[mattclearing]

115. Interesting. You don't have a link on these incidents, do you?

I would like to see that.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

105. My favorite is there is a "secret war" going on with China...

And JK was "let in on it".

It could be there is evidence (perhaps totally faked) that shows China is clandestinely attacking America through economic warfare and perhaps has somehow stolen the election. Thus anyone "let in" on the "secret" would feel that their silence was very important in this "Secret Battle For America(tm)".

Secrets are what drives this goverment. In fact it may not have occured to you but the origin of the word "secretary" as in "secretary of defence" and "secretary of state" is:

-----> S E C R E T <-----

Secretaries "keep your secrets" ...

in the old old days, only the nobility had "personal SECRETaries" to discuss their secret plans with -- since the peasents didn't have any secrets worth keeping ... then with the rise of the business-man class they too felt they had secrets and so more and more people had "personal SECRETaries" .. but with fewer important secrets, the role of the SECRETary quickly evolved through the 20th century to the ubiqity of EVERY businessman having his own secretary and our modern common view of a SECRETary being the glorified note-taker -- obviously the SECRETary of Defence does not sit there and take notes -- he sits there and keeps the SECRETS

So it would seem plausible that there is some big secret action going on that would clam up any high-up players. It's an elegant ploy -- anyone who gets close to the obvious truth is given the recogntion that "they're good enough" to know the secret thus reinforcing their silence by playing to their new-found elevation to a new secret comraderie...

---

yes, for the record, I have a metal hat!!!!! :> :> :>

BTW other variations on the theme are easy to conjure btw. Russia as the secret enemy... Or perhaps a nuke-nation is secretly threatening the USA....

And I'm sure if I really tried (to block the mind contol beams!;>) I could come up with a much more convoluted and exciting hypo-thesis!

I always like to keep such mental-noodlings light-hearted but I must admit that every day that goes by (45 of them now) I feel more and more like I'm in the early days of the soviet union as the hammer was coming down on an unsuspecting people...

FMH

[fshrink]

108. Come on now! Don't demoralize our troops here!

Any negative comment is bad. You could have "re-framed" this as, I don't know, "Covert Dems' strategies to defeat the right", or "Let's support our silent leaders", you know... that kind of stuff that make people feel all happy and energetic and in charge of what's happening. Seems to fly better.

[mattclearing]

109. Nothing demoralizing about it. This is a good thing.

And what you are suggesting could have resulted in some serious flaming from people who never did support our leaders.

[fshrink]

111. I know. I was being ironical (which is also very bad).

[bklyncowgirl]

110. Sad to say some Dems also dirty

Let's face it. There are some local Democrats who've been known to finagle numbers and registrations--all those jokes about dead men voting.

My guess is they don't want this can of worms opened because if it is who knows what's going to turn up. Remember the Democrats didn't exactly fall all over each other to support the paper trail resolution that Rush Holt tried to pass last year.

What's easier to prove--a widespread, multifaceted theft of an election or some local supervisor fixing a race for city council? Guess who's more likely to get caught, some party hack in anytown USA or Karl Rove?

Like the song says "steal a little and they'll throw you in jail, steal alot and they'll make you king." Even the good people in the party, the ones who want free and fair elections are scared of what it will do to the party if this shit hits the fan. My guess is theres pressure on some people not to speak out.

[mattclearing]

112. You may be right.

But Bush did fire a lot of people in the last month. Someone might talk.

Also, I know some Dems are not what they appear to be. We will see what happens.

I also said something similar earlier, that this might be seen as the nuclear option - mutually assured destruction.

I am sure people are being pressured not to speak. Not sure who's doing the pressuring, though.

I like Patsy's analysis. It makes the most sense with the least stretching.

[AntiFascist]

128. Interesting hypothesis....

I'm wondering if a deal was made by those in power, you can have the president and keep control of Congress, we'll take control of certain state governments.

If you really want fair elections the only reasonable thing to do may be to ditch both parties and continue investigations, if thats possible.

[European Socialist]

116. silence

I still say after Jan. 20 you will see more m$m coverage-because they know at that point only the repukes can get rid of Bush. They don't want to be blamed for overturning an election, and the boycotts it could bring. AS far as the Dems go-If Kerry won't stick his neck out-why should they.

[McCamy Taylor]

120. They are following Kerry's lead.

[Der Blaue Engel]

121. But think about what else they're being silent about...

If Kerry was really complacent, in on it, in denial, only interested in his political career, or even truly thought he lost, would he not come out and ask us to stop this "nonsense"? I would think he would make a public statement that he has faith in the election process, and to stop wasting time and money and agony on this grassroots investigation.

So, unless he tells us to stop fighting, I can only assume there is reason to fight.

[ginnyinWI]

132. Preee--cisely!! n/t

[krag]

123. SIMPLE: Because You Look Foolish

With no proof.

Where is the PROOF!?

[CoffeeCat]

125. Perhaps these prominent Dems are wondering the same thing about us...

Maybe these prominient Dems are sitting in a room, pondering--"Where are our people on this issue...the progressives and liberals? Why aren't they marching in the streets and protesting. They DO know that fraud happened, correct? So, why the silence? Why are they not revolting in the streets? We can't step into the fray until it's clear that they people are behind this issue. What would it mean if a few celebrity Republicans and Hollywood liberals alleged fraud? Nothing. We need the people. Where in the heck are they? Don't they care?"

[mattclearing]

126. Nonsense. No one is taking our word for it without MSM validation.

Once the Party or Kerry speaks clearly about what happened with this election, we will make Kiev look like a Karl Rove fan club meet-up.

[Quakerfriend]

129. It's funny, I thought

they were waiting for all of us to show up in the streets, al la Ukraine!:grr: :evilgrin: :thumbsup:

[pauldp]

130. Because they are members of the ruling elite

who think it's more important to maintain their position than to risk losing it by standing up for the people and making an issue out of voter suppression and election fraud. Kerry values his position among the elite perhaps more than winning the presidency.

Kerry gives Jesse J. his blessing but does nothing - bullshit! Voter suppression is just as import as electionfraud - worse in fact because it should have been eliminated 40 years ago! E-machines in contrast are relatively new. Kerry should be next to Jackson on the stage demanding a full scale investigation into the supression of the black vote in Ohio and other places.

I'm sorry I don't see any strategy here, I see deadly hesitation.
But I hope I'm wrong.

[TrustingDog]

131. They know... but timing is everything.

let's not pretend we are privy to what's really going on beneath the radar.

but on the other hand, if this one plays out like 2000 & 2 and just gets forgiven/overrided/forgotten/thrown in file 13....
hit the streets because there is no time left, no more chances, no other recourse.

this is it, folks. The Apex, the Time we are allowed now.....waiting for another 4 years of bush to be over is Not the answer.

"I believe in nothing - everything is sacred. I believe in everything - nothing is sacred." -Tom Robbins.

[brindis_desala]

136. Simple: Kerry conceded

He's the candidate. The party can only follow his lead. Whether he has chosen the right strategy is left to be seen but it is clear he has decided to try and use the courts. If Kerry told Jesse he wanted demonstrations believe me there would have been demonstrations. But it's not like 2000 where Gore ClEARLY won the popular vote. This may take finessing. Be patient.. there'll be lots to protest if the evidence pans out and Kerry's still in hiding. Let's work on collecting the PROOF and hammering the MSM to keep it bubbling.

[TrustingDog]

137. I still believe and like him, Kerry.

wafting this way and that in these 'interesting times', but I saw his face, his eyes, his ease with himself and his words. Those weren't lieing eyes like that beady eyed predator he was opposing.

I am solidly confuserated, in the right direction.

[rzemanfl]

133. Because the only possible solution at this point would be

a civil war. I think elections are held in November because it is too damn cold in most of the country for people to take to the streets. * is not going to leave the White House unless he is confronted by overwhelming force. Things have to get to a point where Bush understands he has no chance to survive in office and they are nowhere near that now. Give it time. * will keep dumping on the military, the cops, the Capitol police, the Secret Service, the CIA and the people in general. When the time is right for his removal he will call out the National Guard to come to Washington and defend him-they will tell him to go to hell. He will ask the troops who have been stop-lossed and under armored to come and defend him and they will tell him to kiss their collective butts. He will ask the officers whose honor he has tarnished to come and defend him and they will advise him that he has pissed away all the country's military power in Iraq. The police will call in with the blue flu. Then, when Karl Rove and Barney the dog are all that stand between him and the people he has defecated on lo these many years, Bush will finally have an original thought: "I need to get the hell out of here."

[genieroze]

135. A few theories

they are in on it
they are in shock and disbelief
they are silently waiting for the right moment to strike back

[s-cubed]

138. Dems are not exactly known for discipline,

Normally, the Dems would be standing in a circle shooting at each other for losing the election. You notice that didn't happen: some writers did, some pundits did, but the Dems didn't attack Kerry and each other. You have to ask, Why not?, since that's the usual reaction.

When William Pitt interviewed Arnebeck at the Conyers hearing, I was listening to what Arnebeck had to say. The thing that really struck me, aside from thinking that this is the lawyer I'd want to have, is the way he talked about the alliance between the civil rights people and the progressive dems. He gave Jesse Jackson a lot of credit for bringing it about, and said it was a very powerful coalition. He empasized the nature of the coalition as exactly that: a partnering of equals with common goals. I don't recall how much of that was in Will's report, but some of it was.

To quote another poster, I wouldn't want to play chess against Arnebeck: he's be about 10 moves ahead.

Patsy: :yourock:

[SouthernDem2004]

139. Because there is still no proof???

I am one of the many Democrats that believe we lost plain and simple. There is zero solid proof to the contrary. All some people have is supposition and conspiracy theories. People have zero proof and yet they are completely convinced they are correct. Really it is alot like the religious people so many here seem to dislike. They believe in something they have no real proof of but swear that they do... They believe in something so much that they see what they want to...

[VTGold]

144. They think there will be a 2008 - I don't .... People don't do

what these people have done only to give up power in 4 short years.

[AmerDem]

146. I'm at a loss

If anything, I thought maybe it had to do with the power struggle in Washington (too convoluted to get into). I often wish I'm missing something as to not have such a negative opinion of these people but I come up blank..and so I'm very pissed!

[Alizaryn]

147. I go back and forth with my thoughts about

which of the theories stated I buy into. I keep thinking that something is missing..it is just too quiet, I think thats what unsettles me the most.

My guess is that January the 3rd will give us a good clue as to which theories will remain standing.

[Ladyhawk]

148. I'm convinced most Democrats just don't care.

That's why I'm seriously considering switching to a third party.

[mattclearing]

149. Wow. Can't believe this thread is back.

Don't go to a third party. This party can be put in the right direction in four years, fixed completely with sixteen or so years, with the proper leadership.

A third party will take twenty-plus years just to split the liberal vote evenly.

[Patsy Stone]

150. I guess

it's because it's still kinda silent... :)

[mattclearing]

151. Indeed.

Michael Moore has broken the silence, but it's hard to take him seriously when you look at his website.

Otherwise, all's quiet on the Democratic front.

[Patsy Stone]

152. I keep returning

to Sun Tzu. Whether I'm right or wrong that there's a plan, there are passages in that book that make me think there is. Of course, anything can be interpreted by a million people in a million different ways. There are definitely passages that don't help my argument. But I still find comfort in his words.

Here's are a few favorites of mine these days:

"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt."

"O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inauduble; and hence we can hold the enemy's fate in our hands."

"Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Finally: "The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting of pent-up waters into a chasm a thousand fathoms deep."

Keep the faith...

[Laurab]

155. If the silence bothers us -

it must be driving * and the boys crazy. I'm with Patsy on this one. It's TOO silent. The democrats have been flooded with correspondence on this - I've certainly sent my share, and yet - no response at all. As someone else said, not even a "we have faith in the voting system". Now, that would be denial, but I don't see that. I think Kerry has demonstrated that he fights his battles carefully and intelligently, and I don't think he's "gone back to his mansion" for a minute.

I think January is going to be full of surprises - and good ones, for a change. Time will tell, but there is just no other way the complete and total silence would make any sense to me. How can the right wing spin it, when there's nothing to spin? It really does make perfect sense (at least to me).

Can someone please tell me where I can find the Kerry video a couple of people have mentioned?

[Patsy Stone]

156. Sure.

Go to johnkerry.com and click on the upper right side where it says video. It doesn't look like what you're looking for, but when the page changes, click play video and there you go...

[Laurab]

160. Thanks!

Doesn't look like a man who's retreated to his mansion to me...

[Patsy Stone]

164. Nope

I gotta say it looks like a man on a mission. Maybe wishful thinking, but it is, after all, the season of miracles. :)

[candice]

157. Evidence of voter suppression, not proof of fraud, however

The Dems definitely need to address voter suppression and revise the election process (federal standards, no partisan secretary of states, duplicates of ballots when electronic voting machines are in use.) If not, they can't count on African-Americans to blindly vote Democatic (they will stay home in droves just as the "evangelicals" did when Shrub's drunk driving arrest surfaced).

I haven't heard of any voter suppression on the Dems part. The Repugs don't want to reform voting because most voters aren't being benefited by the corporate giveaways. The MSM, poor educational system, and need to work hard just to stay in the same place (Wal*Mart jobs) contribute to having an electorate that isn't aware of what is in their best interest.

[Lostnote03]

159. The Peter Principle!!!n/t

[idealista]

162. do they have secret smoking guns?

There have been hints about this. Evidence to be presented in Ohio court, or on Jan 6th....I am hopeful but ready to be dissappointed.

Notice that the Sherole Eaton story came out by way of David Cobb speaking at the Ohio Hearing 8 days ago - and immediately Conyers asked him to discuss it privately.

The Curtis statements about Feeney were spread by journalist and bloggers, who have also hinted at knowing other things that they can't talk about.

Maybe the Dems prefer that none of this hit the airwaves yet, but these were like "leaks". Look what happens when they do - a staged demonstration of how the Triad technician "could have" taken apart the computer and put it back again without "tampering" with the election, which is eaten up by Republicans and the media, and probably someone is leaning really hard on Ms. Eaton to say she might have read too much into his behaviour.....

I can understand the reluctance to share this evidence in a way it will get disredited by the spin machine.