I see this amusing schizophrenia on the election fraud front

[WilliamPitt]

I was at the Boston rally last weekend. One speaker would get up and trumpet that we were going to overturn the election, and the crowd would go wild. Another speaker would get up and dun Kerry, and the crowd would boo Kerry like crazy.

It struck me...people are cheering the overturning of the election, but booing the guy it would be overturned in favor of.

I heard one that the definition of genius is the ability to hold two fundamentally opposite thoughts in your head at the same time. I guess we're all geniuses.

Duno. Struck me funny.

[WI_DEM]

1. I think it is because they don't outwardly see Kerry saying much

about the election and the machine problems--even if he is monitoring things behind the scenes.

[RaulVB]

4. Agreed

A movement without a vocal and visible leader is doomed...

[AntiFascist]

26. Yes...

the crowd can be flakey in that respect.

[mattclearing]

2. Chalk it up to ABB.

People are angry with Kerry for "not supporting the recounts."

Whether one believes Kerry isn't doing exactly what he should be doing right now or not, they are all united against the other guy.

[Eloriel]

30. ABB indeed

Not all that many people were crazy about Kerry -- but they WERE crazy about getting rid of Bush, whoever the vehicle.

I would also like to think that this "schizophrenia" is really more about getting the right results than who wins or loses. I think a LOT of people agree completely with the Fev. Jesse Jackson (I know I do): We can live with winning and losing. We cannot live with fraud and stealing.

[mattclearing]

32. That is the main issue. The Rev. hit the nail on the head.

It's not about being sore losers, or failing to accept the loss.

It's about logical and mathematical impossibility, defeat snatched from the jaws of victory.

We wuz robbed.

[KoKo]

41. We were "cheering Gore on" but we don't know about Kerry...we need

a "Hero...looking out for a Hero! (to quote an old song). Ain't no hero's out there except us folks on the Internets...these days..

[RevCheesehead]

3. Schizo? Or maybe bi-polar?

Honestly, I've seen it here, too!

I don't know if it's impatience, or just people way too emotionally caught up in the election.

Thanks for your comments - they help to refocus our energy.

[Misunderestimator]

5. LOL... Yep... "we're all geniuses"

[smartvoter]

6. It's frustration, and why 2008 won't fly for Kerry. nt

[KerryReallyWon]

42. Agree

[lonestarnot]

7. Sounds like repulsives in the "Support the Troops" same schitzophrenia

evident! Support the troops...Donate a leg!

[we can do it]

8. stop fighting

the bickering is getting tiring - we are all on the same side. :pals:

[htuttle]

9. But I bet they'd boo even MORE if you talked about Bush

That's how a lot of leftists I know felt this election.

I voted for the lesser of two boos.

[yellowdogintexas]

17. keeping the message out re; Repug being bad for the country

is going to be a key element for the next 2 years, to get more of Congress back.

no matter how this election recount request turns out, the fight for balance must continue, along with the continuing reminders that even if we can't overturn it, the election wasn't run fairly ...keep the message out ...it undermines Shrub's credibility more than you think.

Bill Moyers talked about that this am on Fresh Air. I missed part of it and fortunately can hear it again this evening in the rerun.

[Helga Scow Stern]

22. Bill Moyers talked about election fraud? n/t

[SueZhope]

25. I found this link for Bill Moyers on fresh air

Friday, December 17, 2004
Bill Moyers retires from his weekly PBS series Friday night.
To mark the occasion, we give another listen to excerpts of
interviews with Moyers taken from our archives.

http://www.npr.org/programs/fa/

[theshadow]

10. Reminds me of the term limitation frenzy...

.... of a few years ago. Republicans, especially, were yelling for term limits at the same time they were trying to re-elect veteran politicans who would have had to retire if their terms were limited! It made no sense.

[keepthemhonest]

11. it has seemed like up until really yesterday when

JK and JE actually joined the lawsuit, that we were going to have to bring them into this whole thing kicking and screaming. However, I go back and forth with myself that they are doing more than may be evident.For a while there it seemed like the Green party and grassroots were going to do everything,but now JK and JE seem to have both feet in. It would be nice to have them speak out about it, if they think that it is appropriate to do so.

Thanks for your efforts, you seem to be one of the leaders of the grass roots movement, and I thank you.

[LoZoccolo]

12. I think it's just disappointment.

When you're disappointed in someone, you actually like them so much that you get really mad at them when they let you down.

[libertypirate]

13. Your right about the definition of genius but,

booing Kerry is the crowd just saying they are not happy that he is sitting by idle.

People want a leader who will fight for them dispite how difficult it may seem. They just want to fight but no one with athority is leading.

[politicasista]

15. I think people miss Clinton and Gore

The silence is deafening.

[liam97]

16. I don't think this is schizophrenia

People want to fight fraud and the regime that committed fraud. And while they understand what Kerry's hesitation may be in fighting for his presidency, they cannot understand his hesitation is fighting fraud, especially the issues of suppression and disenfranchisement.

[libertypirate]

38. Do you really think after the last election they would be flying blind?

What I really think the problem people have is an anxiety around how serious the situation is and how little attention the press has spent on it.

Who is the one acting like they are trying to get through this as fast as possible? *

Why?

Because if you go fast it makes it real hard to look at the scenery go by. You’re more likely to miss some clue as to what is going on. The lib from Mass. is kind of like our ace in the hole, and these teams in this game are not RNC/DNC they are those who want to know what is going on, and those who want to rush by so no one sees what they know is going on. If we show our ace to soon, before there is sufficient evidence; but there is something else. If you are going to catch them commit one crime, why not wait until you catch them doing the cover-up as well...

Because it is only more evidence and we are not talking the evidence we have seen. There is more evidence of crimes then has been shown.

Since they tampered with the recount we now have grounds to contest the vote all together. We can petition for an entire new vote.

[liberalla]

52. Well said! I like what you wrote...

It makes sense! I have felt all along that Kerry knew what they would try to do. There's no way he was caught off guard or surprised that the election was stolen-- again! Now if we watch and wait, it will be easy pickin's (sp?) and quite rewarding to catch them as they attempt to conceal, fix and cover-up the crime/s. A certain amount of patience is required for this.

[VTGold]

14. GOD - and Democracy - is in the details..... n/t

[troubleinwinter]

18. For a number of days, reading peoples' posts here, the word going through

my mind is: IMMATURITY

[seito]

19. I agree there n/t

[RevCheesehead]

21. You got that right!

Thanks for the chuckle! :)

[Junkdrawer]

20. I'm 10 of 10 for Democracy, 8 of 10 for Kerry, and 0 of 10 for Bush...

And I'm probably not alone.

PS: If Kerry's a no-show thru Jan 6th, I'll be 4 of 10 (or less) for Kerry.

[Hamoth]

23. Let me break it down for you:

This is not, nor has it ever been, about Kerry. We object to ALL roadblocks in the path to clean and fair elections. by objecting equally to our own and theirs who fail to take this issue seriously, we avoid being hypocrites.

This is about Democracy, and has nothing to do with "getting Kerry in", but more has to do with heeding the voice of the people. We view it as a boxing match where someone took a dive. We want the results of the match thrown out. And resent the diver as well as the falsely propped up "new world champion".

[merh]

24. You are so right

No, he's not,
Yes, he is
Not
Yes, he is
No, he is NOT . . .

Some of us have differences of opinions with ourselves all the time, so two opposing thoughts would not be uncommon! :silly:

Dissing Kerry is understandable to a degree, folks want someone to stand up with them and for them and when they don't they get scared and frustrated, so they take it out on the guy they think should be standing up. For others, it's kind of like the double dog dare thing we did as kids, if you call him bad names and make him feel bad, then maybe, just maybe he will get pissed and prove you wrong.

Bottom line, the weed and his admin are evil and must be stopped. Kerry is not a super hero, so he won't be bounding out of a phone booth with his cape to save us, but he may be working quietly and dedicatedly behind the scenes to get to the bottom of the fraud. The fact that he will not be jumping out of the phone booth has folks upset, maybe they have read too many superhero comic books or maybe they don't realize how complicated proving the fraud really is.

For must of us, want Bush out and Kerry in, we just want it now and are mad that Kerry hasn't made it happen yet. I am willing to wait, until Jan 6, if it doesn't happen, I will then cry and then I will be angry and the stages of grief will be experienced.

[politicasista]

27. The weed (LOL)!

Somebody should convince Kerry to come and read these messages. People are angry and hurting out here.

[merh]

35. "The weed that would be king" formally

when really pissed, just "the weed"! :silly:

[Carolab]

28. They do not contradict one another

BECAUSE it is about restoring the integrity of the voting system and about NOT letting these people get away with stealing elections. So, it IS about overturning the election--on principle. John Kerry is hurting himself by failing to uphold this principle. And, if we succeed in overturning the election, the victory will be ours, and not his. Therefore, YAY for us, and BOO for Kerry.

[understandinglife]

29. I agree. We have no election. If Senator Kerry, or anyone, ...

...would like to have a really solid opportunity to become the 44th President of the United States of America they should be in front of the effort on 6 Jan 2005 to declare the current election invalid.

And, they should have the courage to say and make stick the following:

"This thing could just degenerate and spiral downward..... "Whoever eventually becomes ...... is going to have a very hard time governing, and we're going to go through four years of flopping around."

If you'd like to know who made that statement (published today) and would like to become the force that halts the fraudulent election of 2004 and forces a valid re-vote for the 44th President of the USA, then read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x173332

Peace.

[regularjoe]

31. Good ol' logical crowd mentality.

:-) ;( :bounce: :mad: :hippie: :eyes: :argh: :spank: :grr: :grouphug:

[troubleinwinter]

34. Oh, you forgot 'freaking out'!

:party: :hurts: :boring:

[EFerrari]

33. it is funny and Fitzgerald would have been amused as well. n't

[GuvWurld]

36. We're so used to being lied to that we lie to ourselves

The problem of holding two opposing thoughts in a single brain is happening everywhere because we are not honest with ourselves. We routinely accept "lesser evil" scenarios as if they were actual choices. They are not. Instead, we must recognize and acknowledge false alternatives.

We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard of ruthless honesty. This is done primarily by identifying where we say we see something a certain way, but then act as if we see it a different way. For example, the person screaming about fraud but wanting a recount. There is dishonesty in this position, despite the person's best intention to fight the system. The honest position here recognizes that fraud made the first "count" a sham, thus leaving nothing to actually re-"count". The power of framing, of the media's ability to manipulate public acceptance of what constitutes reality, makes this much more than a semantic issue.

The conditions do not currently exist for the US to conduct elections that are beyond question. Conditions in America today correlate with the definition of fascism, not democracy. We must start telling ourselves the truth, and then acting on the truth as we know it. We must also focus on changing what we do, not what we think enough phone calls might finally prompt a Senator to do.

Read the No Confidence Resolution to see what it might take to create conditions that make elections legitimate beyond question.

[BlueDog2u]

45. Nice work. How do we sign up?/eom

[GuvWurld]

48. Re: Signing Up on No Confidence

You may have noticed recent petitions getting defaced. Even before that, you may have noticed petitions don't often produce a specific tangible change. I am reluctant to use an online petition for the No Confidence Resolution, though we may do a local one here to prompt the City Council to accept the resolution for consideration.

This is really the strategy I am advocating for everyone - think global, act local. One community passing the resolution will not lead to revolution. But 50? 100? When does the government no longer have the Consent of the Governed?

An even better question: Is anything occurring today genuinely about seeking or obtaining such Consent? In other words, aren't we already being Governed without Consent? No Confidence asks us to articulate it explicitly.

So, please sign up by writing or calling your most local representative, somebody who you can go see during regularly scheduled business such as a City Council meeting. Encourage them to adopt the resolution. Even better, get your friends together first and go with the support of numbers behind you. Send me progress reports and I'll post them on the GuvWurld blog.

[BlueDog2u]

51. Gotcha...good idea /nt

[KoKo]

37. Well...many of us are convinced election was Fraud...but many are also

convinced that Kerry didn't do enough to expose it by his "early" consession speech.

So...given that your audience and "DU" have a very mixed bag of Dems and others from other parties out there..it would seem your observation is correct.....

But that those "razzing" Kerry understand that even if he won it would still be downhill for awhile...so it could be some weird "sports thing" going there with Kerry. We know that keeping him won't help our team win...but we don't want him traded because it offends us...and maybe he wanted to be traded and "throw the game" i.e (the "conspiracy oriented amongst us might think), and maybe it comes down to that there was NO WAY Kerry should have had so much pinned on him as "OUR HERO" in the first place.

I think I might have missed a better analogy here...but I hate Pro-Sports so the holes in my argument are there....but I tried my best.


:shrug:

[GetTheRightVote]

39. One thing I have learned if nothing else is that this is about us....

The American Citizen who has been disenfranhised again, having a stolen election forced on us again. Believe me, we would like to think we could depend on Kerry to have our back but so far he has been shying away from the lime light and some of us believe it is for the wrong reasons, that is all.

In the end, we only want what is ours to demand a fair election with every vote counted as it should be, a real Democracy not a fake one that * & com enforce on us with a Dictatorship so please forgive us for being upset at our leaders who do not lead us but piss all over us instead with their thrist for position and power. That includes them all, I for one am very upset that Kerry is not supporting us more in our deserved search for representation in our supposed Democracy but he would still be a far better President then the "I do not care if all your sons/daughters die in this War" *.

[EFerrari]

40. ***********WRP**** In your spare time, have you seen the attack

on CA sos Kevin Shelley? The SF Chron (gulp, this will mess up my audition) seems to be leading the charge against him.

I don't know if he's actually done anything really wrong, but he did decertify Diebold in CA.

After that, there were competing articles of Middle eastern guys out taping the Financial District and Kevin Shelley's alleged cussedness as a boss, carelessness with funds, cr$P as far as I can tell. fyi


/spelling

[KoKo]

43. Will, you were a Kerry supporter from the beginning....you never flagged

in your support. How do YOU feel about the schizophrenic response? Do you feel you might have "two minds" about this, also?

I was a Dean/Kucinich supporter. But early on before Dean when Kerry declared I thought he was THE ONE. It was his "Environmental Speech" in November 2002 that inspired me. He had EVERY credential which should have made "mincemeat" (holiday time..thinking of pies)out of the Chimp.

BUT...when Dean said "Gore Won and Iraq Invasion was wrong" I jumped over to him...but was not a true Deaniac..thinking Kerry would come in after Dean's proding and admit his vote was wrong on the war...especially since Kerry didn't support Gulf War I (Poppy's War).

When Dean got cancelled out..I switched to Kucinich because he took up the Torch for the LEFT...but all the while I though Kerry would listen and learn because he had ALL THE RIGHT CREDENTIALS...THE BEST we could through against "Establishment Bush"...was "Establishement Kerry."

I'm very disappointed in Kerry...his mismanagement of his campaign appears in hindsight to have been a disaster, and, that we are now asked to believe he's "behind the scenes" with a "Plan/Strategy" just like we were asked to believe after "Selection 2000" about our Democratic Leadership.Remember Tom Daschle who gave Bush EVERY appointment he wanted after such a bitter/divisive Selection where we Dems were in shock. We were told Daschle "had a plan" for the Mid-Term Elections... Where was Daschle and DNC/DLC's Plan? Who lost in the Mid-Terms? Not the Repugs.

You always supported Kerry...so how do you feel now? I wish you would share for those of us here...:shrug: Do YOU still have faith that Kerry has a plan? Do you even believe that there was "Election Fraud II?" Or, do you feel we here are the "tinfoilhat/Internets/Conspiracy theorists who are pushing Ohio when there's really nothing there except some "disenfranchisment" and "glitches" which just happened to repeat what many of us saw in Florida in 2000?

Can you share?

[KoKo]

46. On Edit....you've done great work reporting on Election Fraud...just

wanted to clarify this...that you moved on past Kerry to report what was going on even though Kerry conceded.

But, I still ask if you feel as schizophrenic as those you find amusing?

Don't many of us have a "love Hate," or "Supported but Where IS He?" reaaction to Kerry at this point? But since you were such a continued strong supporter of his until the very last when you volunteered or were asked to be Kucinich's Press Secretary and served for a little time with him.. then you must have wavered about Kerry towards the last. Would you share why?

My first post was unclear so I've tried to "clean it up" on edit past the expiration time.

[burn the bush]

44. I think many of us would rather see Cobb take the position that he is figh

ting for rather than Kerry who is only thinking of himself right now. But if we can get bush out, then we'll take Kerry.

[EuroObserver]

53. Greens and Libertarians should be invited

into a Kerry White House.

... Green environment & energy policies... Libertarian attorney general... <g>

Such is often the european model of coalition (more representative?) politics.

[goldengreek]

47. That's just sanity.

We're stuck with yet another Democrat that turned tail and ran while under fire, but even he's better than Bush.

Notice that beautiful bridge the French just put up? On the same day it was officially opened we got the word that our trade deficit went up despite the decline of the dollar, and that American contractors are responsible for the breakup of the Concorde.

And the week before, after getting thoroughly thrashed by her European rivals, Boeing announced that America is no longer capable of building a competitive jet liner. Close to half of the next jet won't even be made here.

(The wings will be made by the Japanese, who intend to start building their own jetliners.)

America is dropping like a rock to -- at best -- second class status, and it's all thanks to sociopathic Republicans, their enabling Democratic colleagues who love them, and the corporations that none of them will do anything about.

Do we understand each other?

[seabeyond]

49. your funny n/t

[AmerDem]

50. I think there's a simple explanation

People are very happy and pumped about the voting system being looked into and expect it to be honest and fool proof when done. On the other hand people are pissed that Kerry has done virtually nothing until being called out by others after promising he would fight it with everything he had.